"All in all, public education served many purposes, which is why people vote for it."

Did you disagree with AR when she stated that he who initiates physical force is wrong? It applies to governments as well as to individuals. Compullsory Public Education is applied physical force.

And on what grounds are you accusing me of McCarthyism?

Some parents are too stupid and lazy, but the gov enables them to be so and the gov uses that opportunity to teach kids whatever they see fit. (What is the state compelling parents to do??) The parents don't pay attention (even if they are they don't SEE all the little socialist morsels being indoctrinated).
Free lunch for ONE example.... what messages does getting a "free" lunch instill into a small mind? (regardless of circumstance). That the school (aka the gov) will make sure all my needs are met. And we wonder why we're looking at the laziest, most demanding, complacent, backwards thinking, stoned generation we've ever seen. Not to mention disgustingly wasteful and unappreciative.

socialist morsels? that is hansel and gretal talk. good one

"One of the prime, core motives for public education was the socialization of immigrants to American values".

Education in America began primarily to teach religion and practical skills, mostly agriculture since that was America in the 1700's. "Socialization" began with John Dewey's My Pedagogic Creed. written in 1897. I think we all agree that government should be limited to a police force, a military force, and a system of courts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bigqpv0vW...

"Are you the queen of McCarthyism in the Gulch?"
hahahahahahahha ha ha
you are having a discussion in the best possible forum. no monarchy here. but that was funny

It takes a determined minority with cojones to begin to turn the tide. It also cannot happen overnight.

Lassie?

ignorance is no excuse...
still paying?

how many points have I already given you for the Monkees? now if you brought up Flipper

Why would you have noticed? You were a kid. Easily done. Your parents, however, should've noticed.
"College was a different story...I noticed plenty of evildoers there, and yet I still paid good money for it." Another contradiction.

Are you opposing or condoning the tax system? And I don't care who you give points to, why are you reporting it to me?

You said "I cannot deny that public education is beyond the scope of a government's functions"...and then said you're happy to pay for it. You're happy to fund the gov for something outside of their scope? Why??? Again I ask...how are you benefiting from public schools TODAY? I didn't label you as a socialist, I said you sound a wee bit socialist. Stop putting words and intentions into my mouth. And I'm queen of nothing but myself.

Ok you, go on and stir the pot watch. I remain blissfully ignorant of the evil plots to hold me back... Guess I should have been more paranoid growing up. I failed to notice all those evildoers attempting to foil me.

College was a different story... I noticed plenty of evildoers there, and yet I still paid good money for it.

LS, I gave Wonky another Vote, but that aside, you are correct that the government uses taxes as a cudgel for social policy by giving tax breaks for dependent children. They also let people write off the interest on mortgages to (1) live the American Dream of owning a home and (2) apparently tie them to the land like serfs, because if you look at truly CAPITALIST societies, people rent homes because that lets them MOVE for business. One reason that the Founding Fathers had Poll Taxes was because the merchants did not own taxable land.

So, it is true that if the government did not give people tax breaks, they might have fewer children. I guess in a few generations we would be a nation of rich Catholics, like Kennedy's Camelot or something...

Because they don't see it for what it is...and it makes their life "easier"....even though it's helping to ruin our country and freedoms in the process. Renters with kids get tax refunds...so you're argument stinks. Until there's a flat tax, or some system where everyone has skin in the game they won't 'feel' (oh whoa whoa) it. Public school is only one symptom of a larger problem...it ALL needs an overhaul...or WE'RE going to get overhauled.
And Miss Crabtree IS a Bilderberger. Alex Jones told me so.

T'wasn't me! Do I get a point for Monkees?

I'm not seeing the contradiction. What does being happy to pay for education (as implied, a time insensitive trade of value for value with respect to my own public education) have to do with whether or not education is beyond the scope of government? What is, is. What was, was. What will be is yet for us to decide. Did I not say that I would be much more happy to pay for education voluntarily?

Why would you stoop to labeling me socialist? Are you the queen of McCarthyism in the Gulch?

I'm fairly certain that I'm not the "only" one that notices extremely broad generalizations or extremely narrow differentiations.

I must admit, you seem like you would be an excellent educator. You wouldn't be my favorite teacher at first, but over the long run, I'd eventually appreciate the challenges you'd present me with.

Exactly right! The high kids are used as mini teachers to help the low kids...which does NOTHING for the high kids. Classes are large and with the growing behavioral problems (managing behaviors instead of teaching) the high kids come in real handy. Instead of making it an objective to get the high kids even higher, the focus is on getting the low kids higher because they have to meet the minimum bench marks for teachers to get their bonuses etc. The high kids are already benchmarking, so why bother?

I do not know about "tracking" sound kinda german method to me. but I agree with your statements.

They can see it as they want, but renters do pay their landlords' property taxes and homeowners pay directly, so it is not free daycare.

And it is daycare in particular because as capitalism developed in the 19th century, schooling took kids out of the homes and off the streets so that the parents could work. Also, it reduced the labor force competing for simple jobs.

All in all, public education served many purposes, which is why people vote for it.

In some places, it is organized at the state level but mostly, it is a LOCAL government function and is usually INDEPENDENT of the civic government (mayor, council, police...).

Moreover, the overwhelming success of Catholic schools shows that a demand for cost-effective primary and secondary education does exist. However, never ever ever until just recently was any enterprise motivated to create competitive private schools (except the Catholics, and some other fringe groups). So, you can rant - and we will join you - but the fact is that this is what most people want and are willing to pay for. Public education was not a secret conspiracy by progressives foisted upon us like the Federal Reserve Bank -- unless you think that Miss Crabtree of the Little Rascals was a Bilderberger...

The future may well bring some other modes of education, of course.

Public highways are evil. Public museums are evil. Although most NFL teams are moral, the Green Bay Packers are evil.

Public education is in a long, long failure mode for many reasons. However, it was begun with all the right intentions. Taxpayers vote to support local schools. They elect the local school board. Local school board elections in the 1830s in Kentucky seem to be first instances of women as property owners being allowed to vote.

Public education is a reflection of the high value that we place on education. By the 1850s Ohio alone had more colleges and universities than all of Europe. The Morrill Land Grant created the agricultural colleges that today we call Michigan State and Pennsylvania State Universities.

One of the prime, core motives for public education was the socialization of immigrants to American values.

Public education, like public roads, and public sewers, and public parks, is not the proper business of government. ...

But, what if I want to build a private community... (See where this is going?) ... The contract says that you will do this or that with your garbage and your dog's poop and that you will mow your lawn and BTW we have a school... Don't move here if you don't like it, but once you buy in, then the whole package is yours.

So, the problem is not really public schools, but (1) who controls them and therefore (2) what they teach.

And I gave Wonky a Thumbs Up. I do not agree with all of it. High school sucked for me, too, but, that said, I learned a lot. I, too, was tracked into the Academically Talented cohort -- but I had to goto summer school get into AP because I was not tracked into that.

Could I have learned more by some other method, some miracle of the free market? Quite likely. And if we had not fought two world wars, we could have been on the Moon by 1950. And a lot of things would be different if they were different.

who brought up Star trek? I'm taking away a point

lol. I just had a friend say this to my husband and me a few weekends ago.
breaking down the fiber compared to getting to meat of something has me confused. Moral fiber (conservative use)vs. breaking down the fiber(progressive use). getting to the meat of something is going to Pi$$ off lucky, etc.
clearly, wonky had an ok time in school. but, I'll bet Wonky was not moved up to even 5th grade and had to drum his fingers all day long, every day while everyone else was working at grade level. yes, wonky you were HARMonized with your fellow classmates. in actuality you were used as an aphid for the others-to pull them UP while you were held back. that is the public school way. it happened to me and both of my parents were full time teachers. I was latch key before the term was invented. Why couldn't my mom have taken me to her school every morning? De-segregation. I walked 10 miles uphill both ways as a 3rd grader and sat around other 3rd graders and a teacher tht bored me to death. yes, I almost died. that's when I learned to slllliddddeee. bad habit, that.