Rough Men

Posted by Herb7734 11 months, 2 weeks ago to Culture
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"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm" -- Winston Churchill
With the hatred of police, and police murders in the news I wonder how Gulchers feel about cops? I knw several and I found them to be exceedingly brave men, and dedicated to their jobs. But they are not usually mild-mannered Clark Kents. These are mostly men willing to confront and stand up to the bad guys, and being nice doesn't usually help. Sometimes they overstep their authority. But the bad cops in terms of those whose records are full of complaints are vastly in the minority. So...my fellow Gulchers, what is your take on the police. Haroes? Miscreants? Something in between?


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  • Posted by  $  Radio_Randy 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    I spent about 7 years, total, serving in this country's military. I would readily prefer that over being a police officer.

    At least, as a soldier in a war, you know who your enemy is. A cop may not be able to make that determination, until it's too late. Also, that same officer is fully expected to defend someone who could turn around and stab him in the back at the first opportunity.

    For the most part, our police deserve every bit of respect we can offer.
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  • Posted by term2 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    I say that before we judge the cops, we relieve them from collecting fines for traffic violations that go to the cities that hire them (is that a conflict of interest or what). Secondly, we eliminate prosecution for all victimless crimes.

    After that, the cops would be there to protect our rights. THEN we can judge the cops on that basis.
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    • Posted by blackswan 11 months, 2 weeks ago
      When you talk about "victimless" crimes, are you looking only at the final transaction, or the entire food chain? It may be "victimless" to have sex with a prostitute, but if she has to give up her earnings to a pimp, I'd hardly say that there are no victims. If you're going to define a crime as victimless, there must be NO victims anywhere in that system. Only then would I support the elimination of laws interfering with "victimless" crimes.
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      • Posted by term2 11 months, 2 weeks ago
        well, in the case of a prostitute, giving up ones earnings to a PIMP is HER choice really. So if she is called a victim, its because of her willingness to be a victim.
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      • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
        Swan:
        In the case you cite, the criminal is the pimp.There are always extenuating circumstances. If a husband brutalizes a wife, should you make marriage illegal? I can assure you that happens more often than pimps beating prostitutes. You cannot cover all contingescies when determining what should be a law and what shouldn't be. However, our law books are stuffed full of unneeded laws and not just a few. Literally thousands of them.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
      Are you proposing no traffic violation laws? If the police don't give them, who will? Victimless crimes are still crimes. Either eliminate them or prosecute them. There's no such thing as crime without punishment. However, I think I know where you're going. If there's no victim, there's no crime. I can go with that.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 11 months, 1 week ago
        It depends on how one defines a crime. Crimes that are legislated into existence and that are not objectively seen to harm person or property are not objectively crimes. They are make believe. But the principle of 'rule of law' requires the laws to be enforced. Many are not until some poor innocent needs be shown a lesson. Traffic violation laws are interesting in that many of them deal with situations where there is no aggregation of others as pedestrians or other vehicles anywhere nearby but the law is considered to be violated and is just a means of relieving a driver or pedestrian of some money.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 months, 2 weeks ago
        "Are you proposing no traffic violation laws?"
        I know this is a little off topic, but I think they should enforce the traffic law electronically with zero personal discretion. If people want to create exceptions, like allowing 5-over, 1 sec max under a light that just turned red, one documented high-speed emergency per year, we would codify that in the law. There would be strict rules on who can access the traffic monitoring equipment (camera, radar, etc), to prevent people from accessing it to track people for political or personal reasons.

        Right now the traffic laws aren't enforced well. Most people go 5 over but are subject to being stopped, fined, and searched "incident to the traffic stop" at the will of gov't officials. Most people get away with 10 over and failing to stop before right-on-red. A ticket for these offenses is just another back-luck peril like a flat tire. It erodes respect for the law. The law becomes either a random peril that strike the unfortunate or a tool for corrupt officials and a way to make police officers feel like they are the law rather the enforcers of the law.
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        • Posted by SFMedic 11 months, 2 weeks ago
          All studies done by highway safety groups whether government, university or private sponsors have shown that traffic enforcement reduces crashes and fatalities. The more enforcement, the safer it is to travel. This applies to even minor offenses like speeding or squeezing through a pink light. Fines for infractions are the best way to make people pay attention. There is also a correlation between people who continuously break traffic laws and more serious crime. I arrested a man for a fresh bank robbery because he threw some trash from his car, littering.
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          • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
            You mean studies done by the government show we must have government steal from us via tickets to keep us safe? say it aint so.

            If there was a law saying during snow storms all home owners must lay 1 lbs of salt per 20 square feet on all driveways and walkways, I am willing to bet this would undoubtedly keep us safer.
            If there was a law that all people must sleep for 8 hours per night and enforced by putting cameras in our homes, this would certainly keep people safer and likely even increase the over all health of society

            If there was a law that everyone must drive 20 mph or less and strictly enforced, I know that this would certainly reduce auto fatalities. (Its difficult to get killed at these speeds)

            If there was a law that banned driving altogether, we could reduce 100% of all auto accidents and severely increase the safety of the public.

            If bacon were taxed 1000%, we could keep people more healthy and thus safer.

            Safety does not justify law. once you accept the premise that there does not need to be a victim for there to be a crime, that just overall safety can justify an invasion of rights, you have opened the door for any absurd thing to be justified.
            From speeding tickets to outlawing soda

            instead, look to principles to justify law. there must be a victim to have a crime.

            Safety does not make criminals
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        • Posted by RFugi 11 months, 2 weeks ago
          So you propose guilty until proven innocent and big government cameras tracking our every move? To enforce traffic laws electronically would lead to even more government intrusion. It is a known fact that red light cameras have increased traffic accidents and it is really about the money.
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      • Posted by term2 11 months, 2 weeks ago
        yeah. if you hit someone or cause damage, theres a victim. prosecute THAT. but no victim; no crime.

        In the case of driving, if the roads were private, the road owner could set the rules for obtaining the right to use those roads. The penalty for not adhering to the rules could be that you lost your ability to use those roads. As to fines, I am not keen on them because of the issue of who gets the money and who assesses the fines. conflict of interest.
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  • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    As i've posted several times before the 'sometimes' was determined by Cato Instituteto be a bit less 1% of the number of police populaition - about 800,000 to 900,000 nationwide for 319 million

    That number as a percentage held fairly even in all categories of crime.

    I maintained then and now while the nowhere near wild figures posed in most media 1 percent is still unacceptable and some common statistical factors should be available.

    Just off the top of my own, from experience, list is stress factors coupled with lack of sleep leads to making mistakes. One thing in an office figures can be corrected but another in the street where lives cannot be recovered as if a reset button was available.

    Determining such factors and using them as a guide in settingdepartment policies on overtime, off duty time, mandatory vacation time and physicals should be an easy first step.

    Second example. US Forest Service Smoke jumpers for a long time did not accept former paratroopers from the military. Because they training was engrained and the two types of jumping were entirely different. Might not that be the same between a 20 year veteran of infantry with 2-3 years combat time and a police officer. Or vice versa.

    Again drawing on two professions in my own life.

    Other and perhaps not so readily seen reasons probably exist and using stress levels did you know one of the stress causers is not only divorce but marriage, not only over work but badly planned vacations, even buying a house counts in the mix.

    Add a number of those together causes extra or ultra stress levels;

    But that aside as Cato poitned out ss than one percent of the general population are criminals and less than one percent of police the same.

    http://www.policemisconduct.net/argui...
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  • Posted by SFMedic 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    As a former soldier and police officer I would submit one of the best essays I have ever read on why people are police officers. It is written by Colonel Dave Grossman, a man who has devoted his life to studying and training both soldiers and police. If you have never held either of those positions, it may help your knowledge base. http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm
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  • Posted by cksawyer 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    Other than the typical cross-section of personalities and mental dysfunction that exists in our population (allowing for the possibility that some of the related ones may more highly represented in the front line law enforcement roles given who would be attracted - and the counter influence of whatever processes of testing and filtering for those that exist in recruitment), the MAIN PROBLEM WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS LIES IN THE LAWS THEY MUST CONTINUALLY ENFORCE - many of which require them to suspend their rational faculties (even if only semi-conscious) and moral sensibilities. After a while I believe that this does accumulating damage to their otherwise healthy psychologies and tends to contribute to the likelihood of improper overreactions to situations and other distorted thinking and behavior patterns. This is very similar to what extended time in correctional facilities (on either side of the bars) and in the active combat military environments does to people.
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    • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
      Why are you shouting? Were you turned down for all three jobs?
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      • Posted by cksawyer 11 months, 1 week ago
        Michael, I think I have made out what you are trying to say, though I am not sure what point you are trying to make...?

        My "shouting" was specifically and only at the multitude of laws we have on the books, by the enforcement of which our government so often requires otherwise good men and women to violate the lives and property of their fellows - at home and abroad.

        I am also former military, for what it is worth.

        Do you take issue with either of the above
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        • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
          I'm known for being polite - ask anyone. Active combat military or real soldiiering takes it's major toll from the lack of support from the rear echelons and the country for one group . A second factor is lack of wind down or defusing at the end. Consider 16 weeks for basic and infantry or armor or artillery etc then a week of pre deployment training minimum and a week of in country training usually or whatever replaced it and Little Johnny or Joanie goes off to war. There might be a two week break in the middle of a one year deployment which serves to break the concentration and focus more than anything. At the end and it may not be the same exactly. I'\t's come out of the field, the real field duty, where one's finger is never more than an inch from one's rifle trigger. one day to clear the unit two days to clear out of country and one day to fly stateside do a few hours of whatever personnel crap with the mandatory welcome home fotos and shoe leather dinner then whoosh airport time. My best was four days longest was six. That's not much decompression time. Especially since most of the time i was going back anyway.

          Point there is we put people on the streets of the country who are used to solving problems with one pull on that ever present trigger. They are not used to taking a deep breath and saying WT*?

          My worst return was was punching out somebody for using the new slanguage that had occured in our absence. "You suck." Well he got to suck throuogh a straw for a day or two. Later on somebody explained it. Too late for the smart ass though.

          i wonder if one day somebody will read this sort of thing and say "Hey that was me!?"

          Back to your counter question... I was attempting to find out if you had any real background. and perhaps some episode has traumatized.....and I admit a sprinkling sarcasm.

          Most people in the military think going to the field is leaving the Pentagon. Most of us at the sharp end of the pointy stick think they aren't really military people at all.

          (
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          • Posted by cksawyer 11 months, 1 week ago
            I still am not sure of your point. Sounds like you and I are in agreement in respecting the men and women in those roles. The primary problem, as capitalized for emphasis is the governments/systems of law that direct them
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            • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
              Or the misuse by those systems. There is in some units military and civilian (police) a callous disregard for the well being of soldier or officer. Superiors go out of there way to ensure they are not ready to hit the streets or the bush at peak efficiency. Yet in law enforcement peak efficiency and 100% perfect is held up as the least acceptable standard. I almost forgot the 1/2 or so percent who represent the criminal element of police.

              They see that sort of treatment as a why bother it's easier to keep eating the free meal and chat with the waitress than go answer a call and one thing leads to another. That poinit then was correct but goes further than you might think.
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      • Posted by cksawyer 11 months, 1 week ago
        I'm sorry, I must be missing something, but what 3 jobs was I turned down for? And how is that related to this thread? Help me out here please...
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        • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
          I believe you metioned, military, police and security though the rentacop part doesn't really apply. Places that only use rentacops don't have a real security problem.
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  • Posted by jdg 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    I would say only a few are 100% good or 100% bad. Most have good intentions BUT they make assumptions such as "members of ethnic group X are usually bad guys" or "I must uphold my superiors' view of the law, even when it hurts people who are doing no harm", and those assumptions have bad consequences.

    Of course in many departments, the merits of individual cops aren't what really matter because they have the kind of institutional corruption that made it impossible for Serpico to both stay honest and keep his job. When an organization is rotten to the core like that there's no substitute for shutting it down and starting over.

    If I were designing a police department (and it had to be a monopoly like now, as opposed to something like the Icelandic system) I'd make it cover only one neighborhood, with say 2,000 population or less. I'd have the neighborhood hold weekly town meetings, and the public at those meetings would have direct authority and responsiblity for the employment discipline of police officers. (Which would therefore be completely public information, including the officer's name but not his home address.) Any complaint about corruption, use of unnecessary force, unwarranted bullying, etc. would be aired in public at the meeting, with both sides being heard, and the public would decide whether to suspend or fire the officer(s). Cases justifying prosecution would be referred to the legal system (and conversely, any officer who gets in trouble with the legal system first would have his case come before the town meeting after the legal system has made its decision, for any employment discipline the situation may call for).

    But most importantly, there must be no more immunity of any kind for officials of any kind, from either lawsuit or prosecution. And victims or their families should have the right to prosecute cases themselves.
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    I go with something in between. Mainly because the vast majority of interactions that I have had with Officers is through the process of unreasonable traffic laws. Basically they are collecting taxes via writing tickets.
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  • Posted by  $  allosaur 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    During 1980 me dino with my journalism degree quit a Reagan-bashing newspaper and within a week got a construction job in the same Mississippi town.
    The simple construction job actually paid more than I ever received with 7 years experience as a newspaper reporter mostly in Alabama.
    In 1982 Alabama was building two new prisons and needed correction officers.
    I was attracted by the step raises, its Blue Cross with a dental rider and the retirement system I enjoy now. Toward the end I was making $100 a day plus some repulsive mandatory overtime.
    The academy in Selma called the Alabama DOC "the largest police force in the state."
    Inmates called officers "police" and the stricter ones "real police."
    I was never much of a businessman never mind an entrepreneur so this was just a job I put up with. At least I could write a good incident report.
    The officers? They were a complete cross section of humanity, though many were permanently laid off steel workers at a maximum security prison with a third of the state's death row near Birmingham.
    As a whole, we were the good, the bad and the ugly. Some were even dopers before the state started random drug testing during 1986. We were actually given a month to let any pot get out of our systems but we still lost a shift supervisor who just could not quit his cocaine habit.
    Most were good guys and most quit within 5 years. It was really quite a thankless job. One who worked in a gun store asked my son if we were related and could not believe I managed to stay for 21 years.
    Anyway, I've had to work with lazy curs, back stabbing butt kissers, bullies and actual criminals who left prison in handcuffs en route to the country jail. One now actually serves a life without parole sentence in protective custody at the Kilby state prison in Montgomery.
    One notorious bully almost got me killed. After he got sucker-punched by one inmate, I wound up fighting another who stole his baton. Fortunately for me, all the other inmates just wanted to see the bully get beat up.
    The highest compliment I believed I received from an inmate was "Some in the block think you're weak for being kind but I know better."
    That was Two Block of six blocks plus other stuff.
    A good day was catching tower duty.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
      Doubt if I could hack it. I was unable to pursue my 1st love, so I substituted my 2nd and 3rd ones. Never unemployed, always made a living - sometimes better than other times. I probably married too young and had kids too young but all in all I've lived a fortunate life.
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  • Posted by  $  TomB666 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    There are cops who believe they are above the law, probably always have been. They sometimes openly violate the law as if it did not apply to them. They make it hard to trust any cop unless you know them personally, because you might just be dealing with one of these. In the minute I've been writing this I can recall three specific instances of these "I'm above the law" types that have entered my life.

    One in particular comes to mind as he took it upon himself to drive his police car over 100 MPH just for fun (he was not on any kind of call) and killed two young girls. His punishment was to lose his driver's license (no jail time) and he still has the nerve to keep going back to court whining that he should get it back. With cops like him it is hard to trust any of them unless you know them personally - He and his kind besmirch the uniform for all cops. And until 'good' cops ferret out the bad we are left distrustful of all of them.

    By the way, I'm a 73 year young white male with a nephew who is a cop.
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  • Posted by brando79az 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    Heros? No, I definitely respect them but they get compensation for their service. It just fits their skill set and individual needs. I wanted to be a police officer though my physical characteristics wouldn't allow it. But it isn't that I wanted to be a hero. I just aligned, mentally, with the job.
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  • Posted by wiggys 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    I wonder what the black community is going to do when one calls 911 and it takes forever for a police officer to show up white or black since they are both vulnerable. Then again the same may very well happen in white communities. They the police officers will always have in the front of their mind not the back if they might be set up. Being a big strong rough man does not protect you from a snipers bullet. If these people were to have a decent education and ultimately a job that would reduce the incidence, and that is not the case because the government of the USA has made it so.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
      Only around 30% of blacks in cities are graduating from High School.60 to 70% are from one or zero family homes. Black lives matter? Then work on that shameful situation. Anyone who shoots anyone other than in self defense should be put away - permanently.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    "what is your take on the police"
    You can't judge them as a group. We have to judge that idea of rule of law and then judge individuals as to whether they follow the law.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
      Based on what I know and my experience police are the good guys. Even the jerks are willing to put it all on the line when the time comes.
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      • Posted by Ed75 11 months, 2 weeks ago
        Our difficulty these days, to a great extent is the corruption at all levels of government. Honorable men have a difficult time policing the rest of us when the outcome of any given incident does not result in consistent and equitable" justice for all". Under such conditions, those with limited vision are attracted to positions of power and authority and learn to live with the corruption, aka "go along to get along". Until the elementary corruption is made un-acceptable and not tolerated by "we the people", the job of the police will continue to be difficult and more honorable men will not apply for the job.
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        • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
          There is no satisfactory answer until humanity matures enough so that every person can govern themselves. Not gonna happen anytime soon.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 months, 2 weeks ago
            "There is no satisfactory answer"
            Having fewer laws but consistently enforced would go a long way toward improving the things Ed75 mentions. Govt having its fingers in so many areas makes it easier for the average person to be criminal by accident. Good people develop informal systems to circumnavigate the law, and that leads to what Ed75 is talking about.

            I agree there's no answer to get to utopia, but things could improve.
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            • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
              Always room for improvement. However, the country has moved so low by any measurement, that any improvement will still show a country below par.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 months, 1 week ago
                " the country has moved so low by any measurement, that any improvement will still show a country below par."
                Compared to much of the world now and most of the history of humankind, IMHO, US is an amazing and wonderful place. If modern US is below par, where/when are the really great places?
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                • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
                  There are none.
                  Like Reagan said that we are the last of freedom and if the USA falls, there is no other to take its place.
                  I love this country passionately. Like Teddy R. said, "There's more to see and nothing better to see than this country." But it has been mismanaged to the point where there are so many things that no longer work or reflect its original intent.
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 months, 1 week ago
                    "But it has been mismanaged to the point where there are so many things that no longer work"
                    Look at the chances the average person will die of violence or die young from disease. We expanded rights to women less than 100 years ago and not fully to people with dark sink 50 years ago. We respect children's right to live and grow; parents can't choose to send them to something dangerous or withhold basic medicine. We banned things like chemical weapons, and actually stuck to it, even though the weapons aren't much worse than other forms of violence. The economy allows the average person to get a job that provides a lifestyle unimaginable 200 years ago and with opportunities for education to improve further.

                    Maybe more important than all that, if you say to the average American "he did things his own way without regard to tradition" people's first thought is "good for him."

                    I know we have a third of our economy turned over to gov't, and we have this massive prison system jailing or monitoring a staggering portion of the population, mostly for non-violent offenses. So things are not perfect. But I think we nailed so many other problems and made things that would have seemed beyond imagination, it seems like we can solve the excessive gov't problem.

                    This is not just me saying ra-ra USA. I really don't see how bad things are. I remember thinking this while standing in President Lincoln's home. When he started doing well at the law office, he expanded the home. He had a pipe put in that routed the heat from the fireplace downstairs past the upstairs bedrooms too keep it above freezing on cold winter nights. He had a fancy two-seater outhouse a good walk from the home. That was a luxury to keep the smells farther from the home, but in meant on winter nights they would use the bed pan. At the time when he had these luxuries put in, in half the country they had out-and-out slavery, not just the gov't taking half your earnings but people whose human rights were completely ignored.

                    Even one person senselessly murdered, raped, robbed, or wrongfully jailed is horrible. But it seems on the balance all of that is in rapid decline. We can say America is great without ignoring that it could get a whole lot better.
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                    • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
                      I don't think that saying the country is being poorly run is an overstatement. Of course that does not mean that everything is wrong with the country. But, if the country continues on its current path all the good things, which we both love, will cease to exist. To keep this from happening, one must first be aware that it is happening, and then do what he/she can to correct it. I could compare it to a car owner never changing the oil. Eventually the car will break down. Not because it was a bad car, but because it wasn't taken care of properly. Like Ben Franklin famously said (paraphrase) "We gave you a republic if you can keep it."
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                  • Posted by  $  Suzanne43 11 months, 1 week ago
                    This reminds me of a time a few years ago when a man from Poland called the Rush Limbaugh program. He was crying. He made an impassioned plea for the survival of the United States as the only country in the world that could stand up to socialism, communism, and to every two-bit dictator to come along. He begged the American people to not be afraid to fight for freedom and our constitution because without The United States there is no hope. At the end of his call, Rush was so moved that he was speechless and for Rush to be speechless is something that rarely happens. I hope that under all the mismanagement and all that has gone wrong that there is still a spark of the American spirit in all of us.
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      • Posted by  $  Suzanne43 11 months, 2 weeks ago
        Absolutely, Herb! As a child, the police came to my rescue during an incident that I was involved in. They were, and still are, my heroes. I wouldn't want to do the job that they do. And I certainly wouldn't want to be one of them in Cleveland right now.
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  • Posted by  $  edweaver 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    Personally I do not consider them heroes nor miscreants. They are people, just like the rest of us. They put their pants on one leg at a time. Most are good people, some are not, very much the same as people all over the world. Anyone can see that they do not stop crime, so I don't really believe we sleep soundly in our beds because of them. I respect the job they do and would not want to see what the world would look like if we did not have people like them to capture the criminals among us.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
      Are you saying that there would be no increase in crime if there were no police?
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      • Posted by  $  edweaver 11 months, 2 weeks ago
        No at all. There would be an increase in crime for 2 reasons. First there would be no one taking criminals off the street. Second there would be no rule of law and people would take justice into their own hands. As I stated, I would not want to see the world without the police. I just won't put them on a pedestal. Putting anyone on a pedestal has a tendency to go to their heads. Just look at our politicians.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 11 months, 1 week ago
    It all depends on where you live. In the county jail that I was employed at most of the officers were former military and professional at their job. The local police in the town where I live are mediocre. Once in a while there is a good one he or she doesn't stay long.
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  • Posted by  $  Zenphamy 11 months, 1 week ago
    Herb; An interesting book that dove-tails with the No Hesitation Targets used by police and the Militarization of community police and gov't agencies stocking up on fully automatic weapons with countless hollow point ammo, is:
    Van Horne, Patrick; Riley, Jason. Left of Bang: How the Marine Corps' Combat Hunter Program Can Save Your Life (p. 25). Black Irish Entertainment LLC. Kindle Edition. Following are some quotes from the 1st couple of chapters. It gets much worse as one goes through the rest. With this level of understanding of the training our police receive, one can begin to see how the relationships between our police and citizens has changed so drastically, from our old 'friends on the police force' to our 'combat police.' Combine these with such things as the 'War on Drugs' as an euphemism for War on Drug Users, and 'War on Terror' as an euphemism for 'War on Dissenters and Disobeyers' and one should see that our problem is not so much with the police, trained and incentivized to act as they do, as it is with the policymakers and politicians wanting a compliant population.

    "The Combat Hunter program has proven again and again that it is. Marines and other members of the Armed Forces, law enforcement officers and other security personnel, and even the average person cannot wait for dangerous people to do bad things to them. Nor are contemporary environments of peril confined to foreign lands. The streets of Los Angeles, like the alleys of Kandahar, are complex and chaotic environments in which it is not always easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys. The military, law enforcement, security personnel, and even civilians can use the principles of Combat Hunter to identify the three types of people in any public arena— the “shepherds” (good guys), “sheep” (regular guys), and “wolves in sheep’s clothing” (bad guys)....
    We’ve trained numerous people from outside of the military. When law enforcement agents go through our course, especially senior agents, they are consistently amazed that they were never taught these things before. Naturally, most of the senior agents tacitly know this stuff. They have years of practice of observing human behavior and, if pressed, could probably articulate most of this stuff in one way or another. However, these agents also say that what Combat Hunter, especially combat profiling, provides is a lifetime’s worth of experience in a few weeks. It gives Marines and law enforcement agents explicit knowledge that would have taken years to learn on the job. Now that I’ve been trained in the skills, have developed courses, and have trained other people, I believe that anyone who is concerned for their safety and the safety of others would do well to learn what we teach....
    No police officer or security guard should have to go on patrol without knowing how to identify a criminal before he commits his crime. No person should have to wait until they see a gun to know that there is threat present....
    . Warfighting Laboratory chose three experts to lead the development, expansion, and initial instruction of each of these specialties, the three pillars of Combat Hunter. Ivan Carter, a big-game hunter from Africa, developed the observation portion of Combat Hunter. He recognized the foundation of every hunter is the ability to see his prey. He influenced the development of classes to teach effective observation techniques and how to better use both day and night optics. David Scott Donelan, a former Rhodesian special forces operator, designed the combat tracking portion of Combat Hunter. Combat tracking teaches Marines how to read and understand the physical terrain and identify the physical evidence individuals leave behind as they move through an environment. This skill allows Marines to pursue an armed enemy while gathering information to determine their future actions and intent. Greg Williams, a former law enforcement officer, designed the combat profiling pillar of Combat Hunter. While combat tracking is focused on the physical terrain, profiling teaches Marines how to read the human terrain through an increased understanding of human behavior. This allows Marines to recognize the subtle aspects of human behavior to find the enemy hiding in plain clothes. The integration of these three skills and concepts into military operations, whether in an insurgency or in a full-scale war, creates a more intelligent warrior capable of out thinking and outmaneuvering an enemy who seeks to blend in with his environment."

    Although the book is written, centered on Marine Corps training, it is noteworthy that the program was developed by civilians (some with less than heroic experience) and the authors note the extensive training given to civilian police dept's in the US and emphasis is placed on the concept of being Left of Bang., reacting before Bang. It's an eye opener when considered from the perspective of community policing in the US.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
      Is your point that police are universally adopting these tactics?
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      • Posted by  $  Zenphamy 11 months, 1 week ago
        No Herb, the point is that many are being trained in these tactics, particularly the younger ones on patrol, emphasizing personal combat and danger rather than de-escalation techniques and personal control. I know personally, the last 4 men to run for Sheriff in this county over the last several years and to a man, they tell stories about the young deputies they hire and those that they've chosen not to hire and most of those stories relate to 'gung-ho' attitudes and their relationships with their guns and asking about getting onto a SWAT team.

        The cops of our age (mostly retired) didn't think of themselves as heroes, operators, and always facing combat. And most importantly, they knew what and how important good and respectable manners were, other than the 'few' that we seem to reference today. I was trying to remember the first arrest killing, other than Bonnie and Clyde, that I heard about growing up. Weren't many.
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        • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
          Weren't any reported.
          Looking closer, many justified killings by cops were not justified at all. In every "sinful" act from robbery to rape, there was a lack of reportage unless is was too sensational to repress (Jack the Ripper). It had more to do with the morals and mores of the times rather than making the cops seem too goody-goody.
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  • Posted by RFugi 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    Most cops I have ran across seem to have a God complex. They seem to get off on you being intimidated by them and if you are not they get pissed. I once passed an off duty cop who was going well under the speed limit and at the next red light he rolled down his window and told me I better not pass him again. I did not go over the speed limit he just wanted to show me he was boss. As the light turned green I passed him again, he did nothing, he could do nothing.

    That type of person seems to me to be the majority of police officers. "To serve and protect". . . No not really. Today it is "To enforce bs laws and bring more money into the coffers.

    Having said all of that I do believe that the police will be one of the last lines of defense against an out of control government. The only question is will they ignorantly obey orders or will they protect the people? I have talked to several retired police officers and from what they have told me about the crop of cops we have now and how brainwashed and ignorant they are on liberty I believe they will probably obey.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
      Perhaps it's your attitude. I bet I have experienced more encounters with police than you, and I have only encountered an attitude like that only once in over 65 years of driving.
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  • Posted by james5820 11 months, 2 weeks ago
    A cop by definition is a criminal. Almost everything they do on a daily basis is a crime. To see this you must drop the subjective and only look at the objective.

    Subjective : You were driving too fast, these men are just keeping us safe. We cant have everyone driving too fast. You deserve the ticket. He is just doing his job

    Objective (reality and facts):
    A man wearing a blue costume and carrying a loaded gun pulls you over, then he steals your money by threat of violence and force and drives away. If you refuse to pull over for the highway robber in the blue custume, he will call many other members of his organization, all men wearing blue custumes and carrying loaded guns, they will run your down or shoot you down. If you just don't want to be robbed and just try and get home, you end up kidnapped and locked in a metal cage or dead.

    This is not rhetoric, its not exaggeration. It is quite literal. Any argument made that justifies this, is a subjective argument. that doesn't mean its wrong, just that your not gonna refute it with anything objective, because I objectively stated in truth what happens, you can only refute with subjective ideas.

    what is the definition of a crime?
    I hope you will agree it is when one person aggresses on another persons or their property. In order for there to be a crime, there must be a victim.

    2/3 of all people in jail have committed no crime, there is no victim

    so objectively speaking, if you define a crime as when one person aggresses on another person or property, then if a man smokes a joint or sniffs cocaine or sells heroine, they have committed no crime, then a man with a blue costume uses force to kidnap one of these men using or selling drugs and locks him in a metal cage, that is by definition a crime.

    So by simple definition all cops are criminals. Almost every single thing they do that people misunderstand as public safety, is actually a crime when one removes the brainwashing of the state and sees the world objectively.
    they are the hench men of the state, nothing more.
    America locks up more of its own citizens per capita than any other government on planet earth. And most of these citizens have commited no crime, there is no victim, no person in court claiming any injury. Yet they get locked up anyway. Who does this dirty work?
    The police man!
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    • Posted by 11 months, 2 weeks ago
      Still waiting for a solution.
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      • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
        Herb,
        Sorry, takes me time to see the responses. This is a good site with lot of good discussion.

        The solution- -Let the market take care of it.

        Of course once I say this, people expect details of how this would work. Like any market function, I cant predict exactly how the market would respond. I can guess and give examples of what may happen to help see the possibilities of market answers to security. But just as if you asked me what will the communications market be in 5 years, I cant predict the answer with any certainty, but that certainly does not mean we wont have a communication market in 5 years. Maybe a new invention where we talk to each by just thinking will be possible, who knows.

        I will give a possibility: but first you must ask the question of what is it the Americans actually want from a police service?
        You likely only want personal security when needed. You want someone to call when you are in trouble or danger.
        How would the market respond to this want and need? perhaps competing private police departments? You pay a monthly fee. If you pay, you can call 911 and someone will respond and help. If you don't want to pay. call 911 and no one answers. Its a business like any other because its a service like any other. there is nothing so special about this service that makes it your RIGHT. You want the service, its your right to pay for it. No need to have a bunch of looters getting it for free.
        Now if this were the case, they would compete for your business. They would call you sir (as they should since you are the customer). they would innovate and find ways to make you safer for less money.
        What they would not do is arrest innocent people of victimless crimes. There would be no such thing as a speeding ticket (yes yes, I know were all so stupid this means well all drive so dangerous and smack into each other). If any police agency got out of control or abused its power, people would just fire them and hire another. They would not have power over us, we would have power over them as customers.

        Today you are their customer and they talk down to you. expect you to call them sir.

        No free market service has ever expected me to call them sir.

        Todays police do nothing but commit crimes by any objective standard. the problem is people cant see theft as theft. They cant see arresting someone using drugs as aggression, even though it is. it is the brainwashing that cant be lifted.
        When all of us that are not a police officer see a cop car behind us, the first emotion is fear. You are their customer, yet we fear them. Maybe just fear of a fine (which is theft) but still fear.

        In a free market police system this would never be the case. You would see your paid servant of security and feel relief.

        Most economist that speculate on a free market system feel that police service would become an insurance system in a real free market.

        You pay to insure your body and property and they are responsible to insure it, and within this system police would be built in by the insurance companies.

        But no one can know for sure how the market would respond until freedom is allowed and the monopoly by force is removed.
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        • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
          James
          I have never called a cop sir. I always refer to them as officer, or detective, or agent as the case may be. Trust me, none of them are knights.
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          • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
            Its not really important what you actually call them, the point is more about the fact they have power over you when it should be vice versa.
            They literally work for you
            You are literally their customer
            Yet they have the ability to control you and not vice versa,

            Walk into a Walmart with a set of headphones that you broke. You dropped them and its your fault. You a greeted at the door with a friendly hello, then the counter clerk asks whats wrong with the head phones. You say you dropped them and you think you should get new ones cause they suck and should be able to be dropped and you don't care its your fault, you can even be mean and talk down to them (not saying you should, but you can) they will happily replace them and say they are so sorry they broke on you.
            Walk into a registry of motor vehicles or a police station. the same people sitting at counters treat you completely different. they are nasty and rude in general. of course there are specific times this is not true, but in general this a major difference.

            What makes this two institutions different?

            They are both being paid by you

            Your their customer in both.

            Why does one treat you different than the other?
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            • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
              Hey there, Jimmy
              You've gotta move to a smaller town. The people at the DMV couldn't be nicer. The city employees are courteous and helpful. The police are somewhat less cuddly, but they are polite unless you act like a dick.
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              • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
                There are always exceptions, and the smaller a state is, the more accountable it is.
                I likely have a much different viewpoint than you. I judge all things to an objective standard according to the ideas of natural law. This very often goes against states laws (which most people adopt as morality)
                For example, No man has a right to make you do anything. So the very fact I must register my car is a crime against me. The fact I must pay for it is theft against me. The fact I must purchase a license is theft against me. So my view of the DMV is just a section mafia organization.
                I get how this sounds to someone who does not see the world as I do.
                It sounds like this guy is over the top. Calling the DMV a mafia section? It sounds like some extremist, I get it.

                But once you make a decision for live by a principle and follow the logic no matter what it means or where it leads and use it as a moral compass, then the result is that I see the world this way.
                We as Americans are so used to our loss of freedom that we cant even perceive the tyranny we live under.
                We don't know real freedom so we don't understand real tyranny.
                Even most Russians in the height of communism would defend their state and situation. One thing I have learned about tyranny is that it is not always gulags and guns pointed. it comes extremely slowly and unnoticed, and comes on the form of DMV's and EPA's and one new rule at a time. Its rarely force that is we physically see because no one chooses to not make the stand in their lives. We all make the value decision that our lives under whatever tyranny there is, is worth more to use than freedom
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                • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
                  I do think my point is valid though. You may have a nice DMV, but I think your find on average, state workers do not worry or respect their customers like the market does. The reason is simple. They don't have to. Its a monopoly by force. They can treat you like crap and there is little you can do about it. You cant fire them. You cant refuse to do business with them. If you refuse to do business with them, Men with guns will come to your home, kidnap you, and lock you in a cage. That is literally what will happen.
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    • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
      James 5820
      You scare the crap out of me.
      You are an advocate of unbridled freedom. Not for the current human race.
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      • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
        Your second sentence is a compliment to me even though you didn't mean it as such.
        What scares you about a free market police system. ?
        You would not want the power as an individual to choose the type of police service you buy?
        To be able to fire one if you deem it incompetent?
        To not buy it at all if you feel safe without it?

        Unbridled freedom is a redundant term.

        Because there is no such thing as bridled freedom any more than there is a free slave.
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        • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
          You should be scared (and Im willing to bet you are) of the current police system. Since America locks up more innocent people than any other country in the world, you should be scared of any and all police today.

          Don't be scared of solving that problem with freedom
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          • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
            You would have to prove that statement. Not just parrot the Guardian's unfounded assumption. .How many federal police agencies in 1978. How many now? When you can answer questions like that with facts you will validate some of your beliefs. So far your score is zero.
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            • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
              Michael,
              Prove what statement? That America locks up more of its people than any other nation? This is common knowledge. Here is a link with the stats.

              http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi...

              but don't take my word or link, just google incarceration stats and you will get many different sites all telling you the same thing -

              America locks up more of its people than any nation.

              Below you wrote that you rejected my original argument in total unless I can back it up with facts. This doesn't even make sense.
              My argument is that I want freedom over police state. It is based in a principle,. It doesn't require facts to back it up.

              I am saying I don't want to have a monopoly by force but instead I want a free market to provide security service.

              And then you say "back it up with facts"

              I prefer freedom over tyranny. How do I back that up with facts?

              If there is something specific I said that you want proof of, then specifically ask for it.

              Don't just make a blanket statement that a principled argument should be backed up with facts. that doesn't even make sense.
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              • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
                Source of information per country? Also what is the execution rate and the rate of parolees or those on home prison status. And prisoners released for lack of jail space and their disposition.

                China for example is reputed with 'common knowledge' another term for urban legend and BS to do on the spot executions at the discretion of the police official and then bill the family for the cost of the bullet. Ah yes and the recidivism rates and type of government.

                A principled argument without facts to back it up is not principled it's just common knowledge. You have a long way to go to learn proper research. On the plus side the Organization for Prison studies while started by the British House of Lords or government is a non profit, non government charity tax purposes.

                In the USA it'self to distinguish it from the other two United States in the Western Hemisphere people under arrest are often released pending trial principally the illegal immigrant population

                A nice start but then where's the rest of the figures? A British charity? What about the US figures for starters.

                Federal Bureau of Prisons has for June of this year

                Asian 2,927 1.5%
                Black 73,557 37.6%
                Native American 3,963 2.0%
                White 115,046 58.8%

                On a daily basis the numbers are reputed to be 750,000 at all levels for all offenses at all ages, sexes, races etc. Reputed because the figures are in dispute by readily available resources. That's the highest. it is not accurate. the ones above are federal only.

                Since your comment failed to mention any numbers just as sort WAG not even a SWAG I added them in out of common politeness and accuracy which coupled with Common google is far superior to Common knowledge.

                The rise in prisoners over the last 20 years is also resourced and all of it available by using one word Google.

                Then there is the curious word 'innocent.'

                How do you know how many are innocent when they have been jailed presumably by trial with judge and jury of their peers represented by competent attorneys?

                The use of that word in that way fails to meet even the levels of WAG

                I just republished access to the Cato Institutes study on police misconduct which among other things put the amount or percentage of police misconduct in all crime categories per the 800,000 local to federal police at a bit less than one percent. Meaning 8,000 police break the law. The same study showed tghe percentage of criminal law breakers in the total population to be slightly less than one percent in all catagories of crime as compared to the total population.

                My interest was how much jail space was freed up for use by more serious criminals than pot smokers in the states that have legalized marijuana use as a result of the three strikes laws. Can't tell you the statistics are not readily available. at city, county, state and federal level.

                I could have extrapolated a bit and made a Wild Ass guess or a Scientific Wild Ass guess but that's not facts in evidence and therefore not part of objectivism.

                In the last 20 minutes or so I've produced, partially what you should have provided us. That's all the time it took.

                Incomplete and hey I even forgot those who are released due to over crowding, or sentences commuted for various reasons. I also left out the number of sentences reversed by the use of DNA evidence wildly varies see the google headers of the first three that popped up.

                DNA Exonerations in the United States - Innocence Project Innocence ...
                www.innocenceproject.org/dna-exonerat...
                1989: The first DNA exoneration took place; 37: States where exonerations ... 4,658: Total number of years served; 26.5: Average age of exonerees at the ... In more than 25% of cases in a National Institute of Justice study, suspects ... that 29% of cases were closed because of lost or destroyed evidence. ... Press Release.
                DNA evidence proves innocence of 300th prisoner nationwide - latimes
                articles.latimes.com › Collections › News
                Oct 1, 2012 - DNA evidence exonerates 300th prisoner nationwide. A Louisiana man is released from death row after his murder conviction ... "District attorneys now recognize that the system doesn't always get it right and many, like Dist.
                [PDF]EXONERATIONS IN 2015 The National Registry of Exonerations
                www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration...

                Feb 3, 2016 - 2015 set a record for exonerations in the United States—149 that we know of so .... or in part on DNA identification evidence, 17% of the total.

                Use this one for fast facts but beware it's not dated.

                http://www.innocenceproject.org/dna-e...

                How many of the worlds countries cited in your single source use DNA to release those found not guilty?

                Finally How many were politicians. After all following the wisdom of Mark Twain the USA's only true home grown criminal class is the US Congress.

                Now you can start to put together an article.
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                • Posted by james5820 11 months, 1 week ago
                  Ok Michael, since you spent a full 20 minutes refuting my claim that the U.S incarcerated more of its population per capita and that was not really the point of my post, the point of my post was to make a point that if objectivism is used on the principle that crime is only crime when there is aggression and absent a victim there is no crime, please tell me which country has the highest incarceration rate?

                  You went on and on and people being released on DNA evidence, (which is likely only in crimes where there was aggression) and a lot of blow hard that I don't really get your point with acronyms I don't even know (certainly to show your expertise in the subject).

                  Since you got fixated on this point and already did the research, Save me the time and tell me which country actually locks up more people per capita than any other?
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                  • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
                    Oh, James?
                    Are you nuts? Michael will take joy in answering you, and answering you, and answering you. You're no better, because you bait the bear. When dealing with Michael, who often has some excellent ideas, after two answers, no matter how provocative (he gets off on it) end the conversation or else this thread which is already so far off the subject you might as well be talking to a Panda, will go on for a decade.
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                    • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
                      Not any more I'm getting better at this. Once I make your day and that of many others. It's button pushing time. Or as we use to say plonk.!
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                      • Posted by 11 months, 1 week ago
                        Michael, I can't make up my mind if you are a crank, a nut, a mad genius or an evil professor. But one thing I do know -- you're having almost as much fun pushing buttons as me. However, I think my boredom quotient is greater than yours because you seem to be able to go on and on with any given topic whereas I got to let go after 2 or 3 posts.
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                        • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
                          I like pouring gas on the fire and get some pizzaz in the conversation as well. But as far as the wing nut is concerned it's a waste of time with these sec progs. They are programmed but not too well. A challenge would be nice but they are soooooo EZ i enjoy the company of fast and educated brains though.
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                  • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
                    I reviewed everything it was your claim I had to do your research and as you will soon see reframing doesn't work when you have nothing to offer.

                    Only way to react to a secular progressive is turn and walk away. let them talk to a wall as any thick brick should . Plonk.
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    • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 11 months, 1 week ago
      Rejected. in total. Unless you can back it up with some facts. Cold, hard, cruel to your ego facts. Subjectivism and fairy tales don't work here.

      Your only acceptable response is facts or seek help for Mother Gumpitis. I think you been watching too much immaterial street theater on the boob toob. Two weeks of that garbage are enough to drive anyone into a fit of anxiety rage.
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