Proposition: America Could Not Have Been Founded By Objectivists

Posted by deleted 10 years, 2 months ago to History
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Check out the Founding Fathers... the *sacrifices* they made way outside the reward they got. Many of them were financially ruined. Many had their health ruined. Many never lived to see the rewards which their sacrifices wrought.

George Washington could have been king; had he been an objectivist, he might well have become king, or been the cause of another becoming king.

Here he argues the men of the military into sacrificing value-for-value.
http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/was...

" "Gentlemen," said Washington, "you will permit me to put on my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray but almost blind in the service of my country."

In that single moment of sheer vulnerability, Washington's men were deeply moved, even shamed, and many were quickly in tears, now looking with great affection at this aging man who had led them through so much. Washington read the remainder of the letter, then left without saying another word, realizing their sentiments."

John Galt would never manipulate his men so. Then again, he'd never have "his men". Except in Rand's fictional world where she can induce the emotion of undeserved loyalty from the aether.


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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well actually, capitalism didn't exist as an economic theory (let alone a philosophy) in 1776. The term "capitalist" wasn't even used in the English language until 1792 (sixteen years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence), and the term "capitalism" didn't appear in English until 1854. So I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that the United States was built around capitalism. Unless Ben Franklin was secretly a time traveler, I don't see how any of the founding fathers would have even known what capitalism was.

    http://www.krusekronicle.com/kruse_kroni...
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, I agree.

    I still think the Galt speech was true in that the factory made the jobs possible, not that the workers were entitled to a cut of the profits.

    It's still true today, but work is becoming more creative, less systematized, and has lower barriers to entry.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't think it's mean literally. I think it's saying the opportunity to do work that valuable wouldn't be possible without the productive genius that made the factory possible.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's possible to follow the Bible but none of the contemporary institutions built up around it.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Should Objectivism become dominant, watch it over the next 2000 - 6000 years... then let me know.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The same way a person can believe in trading value for value, the rights of the individual, and the virtue of productivity without joining the gulch.

    Must one move to Atlantis to be a producer, and not a looter or moocher?
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, religion is an attempt to understand the why of the universe.

    And the communist collectivists used force to impose atheism on others.

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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "in the name of atheism", I said, and that's what I meant. Are you asserting that all those communists, and modern communists, who declare their atheism, are not sincere, and secretly believe in a created universe? In communist states, religious practices were crimes which landed thousands upon thousands in Gulags, if they made it that far. And where these atheists gained power, religious persecution spread.

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  • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You're not making any sense. How can you follow the Bible and Christianity but not follow a Christian religion?
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I wasn't talking about the water killing the Egyptians, and I didn't necessarily mean that one slave he accidentally killed, either. I was talking about all the people he had his followers slaughter when they went to a new land.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well, to be technical, the water killed the people when it closed up after the Israelites passed through it and were safely on the other side. It was the Egyptians choice to try to follow them. This, after Pharoah agreed to let the slaves depart then reneged on the agreement.

    At most, Moses was accused of killing one slavemaster.

    But, this example then goes to demonstrate that you accept miracles.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I wasn't trolling for a point. I see no value in points that can be used to censor or given to someone if they sneeze because they appeal to your emotions and you want to purchase influence. I wanted to know if my work added value.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That was alot of work don't I even get a that a girl? It supports the original proposition with evidence and it puts the blame for the persecutions and deaths right where it belonged with the political powers of the time. Does it have no value?
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Then we should expect just as much violence to be committed against others by Objectivists as by those who believe in Judeo/Christian religions?
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There are lots of stories in the Judeo/Christian texts. That said, at least the Christian theology is superceded by the ideas - "He who is without sin should cast the first stone," "Love your neighbor as yourself," and "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." None of which supports committing force against another. Nor does it say you are your brothers slave, so don't go there either.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Martin Luther questioned papal authority, 1520 and the authority of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. via his writings on theology. Martin Luther translated the bible to German which gave many more people access to written word and allowed them to develop their own ideas. This spurred the protestant movements in England, Scotland, Germany, France, Holland Italy and Spain(under the Spanish Inquisition) John Calvin-lawyer writer theologian in the Renaissance era in France is forced to flee after an accusation of heresy by senior conservative theologians. 1536 begins the reformation with his writings on faith which were condemned as heretical. Calvin's political theory was to safeguard the rights and freedoms of ordinary people. freeing their minds. To further minimize the misuse of political power, Calvin proposed to divide it among several political institutions like the aristocracy, lower estates, or magistrates in a system of checks and balances (separation of powers). Finally, Calvin taught that if rulers rise up against God they lose their divine right and must be put down. He was making it plain and clear if rulers try to stand between you and your free choice of theology (philosophy) they must be put down. Churches influenced include: Continental Reformed, Presbyterian Congregationalist Reformed, Baptist and Anglican. 1620 . A separatist congregation with beliefs comparable to nonconforming movements (i.e., groups not in communion with the Church of England) led by Robert Browne, John Greenwood and Henry Barrowe. Unlike the Puritan group who maintained their membership in and allegiance to the Church of England, Separatists held that their differences with the Church of England were irreconcilable and that their worship should be organized independently of the trappings, traditions and organization of a central church. They left a country where they were forced to go to the Church of England by the political establishment. About this time the King James Version of the Bible was translated into English and Presbyterians arose in Scotland. One William Bradford Pilgrim writer of On Plymouth Plantation was amongst the independent minded people who went on the Mayflower. The Puritans were cast out of Massacheusetts by the separatist. Puritans preached separation of church and state and colonized Rhode Island the Quakers would soon follow. The diverse religious practices soon resulted in respecting each person’s right to practice their religion. Thomas Jefferson uses separation of church and state from the language of the founder of the Baptists Roger Williams who wrote in 1644 of " A hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"— Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
    This shows that religious people fought the oppressive institutions of government many times over. These free thinkers became the individualists who broke with traditions and chose how they wished to conduct their lives. They created a diverse nation of diverse philosophies that brought rejection of royal authority, the ideas of balance of power, freedom of religion, and separation of church and state to the table, it was not limited to one group, one man or one philosophy and probably laid some other early seeds that led to the age of enlightenment in western civilization.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I know nothing about guns, but I keep hearing that even though the M-16 is superior to other guns in many ways, its size and complexity are a problem. It seems like the military should adopt some smaller gun for urban fighting situations.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I thought you were saying when someone from a religion you like commits a crime, you overlook it saying they're not a true member.

    I see you weren't saying that.

    No-true-Scotsmans is the coolest-named fallacy, though.
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