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jbrenner assigns HOMEwork - Planning Atlantis

Posted by  $  jbrenner 4 years, 9 months ago to The Gulch: General
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An assignment I give my students in almost every course I teach is what I call a questions and issues sheet. Students are asked to come up with a list of at least 25 questions and issues on a process design, product design, or failure analysis of my choosing. Students start by brainstorming either by themselves or in groups for 0.5 to 1 hour, and then categorize their questions and issues into the following categories: technical/engineering, economic, legal, regulatory, quality, environmental, safety, health, logistical, project management, and social impact. It is better for the questions and issues to be in the form of a question such that the question can be answered with a yes/no or a number. In that way, the exercise serves as a checklist to keep the project on track. Points are given for the number of questions, category coverage, identification of all of the key issues, depth of insight, creativity, and for thoroughness of the list. A critical issue not considered is often the project killer. Your assignment is to participate in this exercise for the development of a physical Atlantis.


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  • Posted by dbhalling 4 years, 9 months ago
    The fastest way to build up an area like this is banking and business secrecy. A place secure from the NSA and US banking, would draw people from all over the world. But you have to secure the freedom.
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    • Posted by conscious1978 4 years, 9 months ago
      Exactly. A place like that would be a magnet for those that want and appreciate Gulch principles of liberty and justice.

      I still think the real-world logistics of an island Gulch involve too many vulnerabilities in defense, travel, infrastructure supply and maintenance, and population capacity to provide the stable business environment we need.

      A real Gulch wouldn't be a commune or a country club and should try to avoid those pitfalls. As I mentioned elsewhere, a land-based network of communities might be best. Create an alternate economy hidden in plain sight. Subcultures of various kinds already exist in this country. This website and others represent a primitive Gulch network, now. To strengthen it, beyond rhetoric, would require a secure banking and business environment first.

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  • Posted by dbhalling 4 years, 9 months ago
    We need a structure that ensures the gulch does not become just a place for people who are right, but people who are creating wealth.
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    • Posted by  $  johnrobert2 4 years, 9 months ago
      Oops. Creating wealth is not what I would consider a defining requirement. Contributing to the overall viability of Atlantis should be. In AS, many of the inhabitants were not creating "wealth" but were adding to the value of Atlantis.
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      • Posted by shivas 4 years, 9 months ago
        I would think the defining requirement of such a place would living by John Galt's pledge. Whether you work to create value and live within those means to create your own wealth or bring it with you and pay for others value seems irrelevant.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
      That will be an interesting challenge, db, as most of the people in Atlantis will be "retirees" from the real world.
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      • Posted by iamfrankblanco 4 years, 9 months ago
        As a "younger" member of the Gulch, I feel compelled to say that this problem could be addressed by having founding members of Atlantis take on "apprentices" who are physically and mentally capable of the taxing labor necessary to perpetuate a project like this into the future.
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        • Posted by  $  johnrobert2 4 years, 9 months ago
          So, all animals are equal but some are more equal than others? Riiiight. The 'apprentice' system implies a tiered class system. If someone wants to work at a certain job, and needs to learn the basics thereof, then they can attach themselves to whomever would teach them and learn. But to impose such a system flies in the face of what we are trying to accomplish.

          If I have misread your intent, I apologize but something about your statement just doesn't come off right.
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          • Posted by plusaf 4 years, 9 months ago
            Respectfully disagree on the implication that a 'tiered class system' involving apprenticeship is undesirable.

            I'm reminded of the first 'real job' I ever had. We either chose or were assigned 'mentors' who, amongst other things, showed us where the rest rooms and cafeteria were but also introduced us to the engineers and managers of the organizations we would be working with towards mutual/joint/combined success.

            Some time after I internalized the local map of bathrooms, cafeteria and partner-organizations, I could make contributions to their successes, too. (ease off on the potty-jokes, ok? Oh, wait.. that reminds me of a problem I discovered in one of the drains in a men's room at HP a few years later, which also led me to the discovery that "the system" at that division had no input device to learn about or correct the problem I discovered. That should have been a red flag right there...)
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            • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
              I agree with you, plusaf. I don't think that there is any real problem with an apprenticeship program either. It provides an avenue for those with AR values who do not have the finances to retire yet to be contributing members of Gulch society. For example, I have one student right now who has freakishly exceptional talent - a John Galt in the making. He is not there yet, but it is clear to me that he will someday be far my superior. In the meantime, I supply the funding and guidance for him to make tools of common interest to both of us. Isn't that why company owners hire people?
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          • Posted by iamfrankblanco 4 years, 9 months ago
            No apologies needed. I just didn't want to come off as condescending. I just know that I was willing to trade value, whether youth or intelligence, in exchange for an opportunity to participate in a community such as this one.
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        • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
          I have often jokingly compared myself to Quentin Daniels, Galt's assistant, so I think it's entirely reasonable that an apprentice program can be instituted.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 4 years, 9 months ago
            In fact, it would be necessary. A school is merely a mass production method of apprenticeship - and far less effective. It results in the "grad" to essentially re-learn all that has been learned by others but not written down in some book. Much of this is transferred during apprenticeship interactions.
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  • Posted by khalling 4 years, 9 months ago
    The compelling issue is that we do not all have the same concept of Atlantis.Is it virtual? Is a community based on real estate? Is it an island? seastead? Is it part of a free state? Is it snowbird suitable> Is it an artic-remote place? They always say location is everything, but I think in today's world mobility is everything. I like the idea of moving around. If we are a seastead would we remain as an island 12 miles off somewhere or move around like those cruise ship condos? Personally I imagine a mobile core group-traveling to wherever the most profitable industries and minds take them. I think if we firmly plant, we are a sitting duck. but I am no expert on this
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    • Posted by conscious1978 4 years, 9 months ago
      Ahh, the "compelling issue" may be the toughest to agree on. It's probable that good, rational people will not ultimately agree on the concept of Atlantis/the Gulch — which is fine. Still, I appreciate the spirit of Jim's topic to explore these ideas.

      As, I've previously mentioned, I'm more for a land-based network of communities. I see the Gulch, not as a retirement community, or commune, or country club; but, as a place where people with varied interests, skills, and resources come to live and work with others based on respect for the principles of man's rights (Gulch Values).

      An island or a boat isn't going to be big enough for the Nation we want to rebuild. Nor, for the large numbers of people that already realize something is not right with the country that once showed the world what is possible to men...and will gravitate to communities where those rights are rationally upheld.

      Why are Ayn Rand's books still as popular as they are? ...because there are lots of people out there trying to make sense of the legitimized irrationality they see around them? I think those sales are kind of like an anonymous barometer of that yearning. If we are in a battle of ideas to make our lives free, then we don't need to physically withdraw from those which could join us. Let's find ways to create 'islands of sanity' for our own sakes that will, consequently, be a beacon to others searching for a rational place to live.
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      • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
        There may be lots of people who are interested in a physical Atlantis, but there will undoubtedly be far fewer who are willing to do what is necessary to make it happen. Certain aspects of life in America is quite easy to take for granted. I would much prefer to have the virtual Gulch with 'islands of sanity' that we have now to be sufficient. My wife agrees philosophically with the Gulch, but we really have a great situation here in Florida. It would take a total collapse of America to make moving to a physical Atlantis necessary, but I want to prepared just in case. For example, if my part of Florida had a Hurricane Andrew or Katrina centered directly on it, it might not be worth rebuilding.
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        • Posted by conscious1978 4 years, 9 months ago
          I agree. However, I think the numbers of resolved individuals increase exponentially when they see more clear examples of 'government' treading on their rights and taking their money. Witness the reactions that gave birth to the Tea Party and the increased awareness of our freedom being in jeopardy.

          Come back to Texas, if the weather wipes you out. We'd be glad to have you as a neighbor.
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          • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
            I am sure that I would be welcomed back as a native Texan. If they were alone in secession from the US, I think almost all Gulch members would go there, but given recent events, it may no longer be worth saving come secession time.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
      This is the place for hashing out all of the answers to these questions. Cruise ships are extremely popular down here in FL and are a lot cheaper than they used to be.
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  • Posted by robgambrill 4 years, 9 months ago
    Dr. Brenner, If you haven't yet called time on the half to one hour huddle and we are still brainstorming, I would like to offer up one of my favorite quotes which I think has some bearing on how to proceed...

    "I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

    John Adams

    I don't think the U.S is beyond repair. The founding fathers gave us a pretty damned good start, and maybe it isn't too late to get it back on track.

    So for question one may I suggest...

    1) Can we reform the U.S.A. back into a republic based on personal liberty (turn the U.S. into Atlantis)?

    ... A hypothetical flowchart bifurcates almost exponentially at that point.

    If the answer is yes, however, the "American Atlantis" could be used to point the way for the rest of the world.

    I call this the "Halfway there" option. It uses what we have to build what we want.

    .
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 4 years, 9 months ago
      I like your thinking. However, there are many here who buy-in wholeheartedly to the need to destroy the existing in order to rebuild it. I'm not one of them, being more in your camp to turn the ship, slowly at first, but with increasing pressure.

      I, for one, believe that aiding the collapse will only usher in a period (I believe to be measured in centuries not mere years or even decades) of collectivist oppression. Similar to the dark ages after the Mongols defeated the Romans. Unfortunately, the current version of mongols have much better tools and means to enforce the oppression.
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      • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
        There just isn't enough time to wait the decades necessary to reverse the sinking ship (No Longer) United States? of America (still true after the recent invasion?). America has condemned itself into the trash heap of history.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 4 years, 9 months ago
          But there are other alternatives - How about the Socialist States of the Atlantic, and the Collectivist States of the Pacific be divested from "fly over country"? That still leaves the larger cities, but perhaps they could be spun out as city-states.

          Another alternative is to repeal the 17th Amendment. And/or change congressional representation to 1 per county.

          I'm a problem solver by profession. There are always ways to improve a system. I've not yet seen one where the whole thing was better off being totally junked.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago


      I'm going to wait about a week for feedback total.

      The US could be repaired if a sufficient number of Americans had the willingness to repair it, but the American public is too invested in what they can get from their government. John F. Kennedy would be disappointed in this generation in that respect.

      The Republicans actively bash anyone who makes a serious attempt at correcting the situation, so they are only somewhat better than the Democrats who are actively leading a charge over the cliff.

      The founding fathers gave us a republic, Over the past 100 years we have not kept it. In 2012, it could have been reasonably argued that America could have been repaired, but when it doubled down on socialism, the debt reached levels that are beyond the tipping point. When Romney got blamed for losing the election for making his infamous 47% statement to donors, he didn't realize that he was underestimating the percentage that were beyond hope of convincing of the merits of the founding fathers.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 4 years, 9 months ago
    Jbrenner assigns Homework-Planning Atlantis

    Great ideas from members of the Gulch, but first we need deep pockets to fund this project. That’s up to other members to work on. Here is what I can do; that is to purchase the following from the internet and by phone with the funds:
    1. A small sea going freighter w/cranes for under a mil.
    2. A Port Engineer to inspect the vessel, register it in Panama.
    3. Hire a retired/semiretired Captain, First mate, and Chief Engineer.
    4. Ablebody Seaman from one of the merchant marine halls.
    5. 5-20mm Oekilon Cannons (WWll reconditioned vintage) w/ammo
    6. 5-35mm Bofors w/ammo
    7. Ship supplies through a Ship Chandler(NY, Texas, Louisiana, or California)
    8. Foodstuff’s from Commodity Broker-Chandlers.
    9. Temporary housing assemblies: prefab containers.
    10. Portable desalination modules.
    11. Diesel Generator Set and Fuel.
    12. Two crates of Tokarev TT 33 7.62x25 semi-auto pistols and ammo.
    Then have all above delivered to the Island of Atlantis.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
      Wow, that's quite a contribution to Atlantis, owlsrayne! Atlantis' navy is shaping up nicely. Regarding the deep pockets, Midas Mulligan is the nucleation center around which all growth must take place.
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  • Posted by  $  CBJ 4 years, 9 months ago
    Foreign policy issues
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    • Posted by iamfrankblanco 4 years, 9 months ago
      Territorial sovereignty?
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      • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
        From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation... under Legitimacy:

        In international law, the Montevideo Convention on the Right and Duties of States sets down the criteria for statehood in article 1: The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

        The first sentence of article 3 of the Montevideo Convention explicitly states that "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

        Under these guidelines, any entity which meets all of the criteria set forth in article 1 can be regarded as sovereign under international law, whether or not other states have recognized it.

        The Sovereign Military Order of Malta, as an independent subject of international law does not meet all the criteria for recognition as a State (however it does not claim itself a State either), but is and has been recognized as a sovereign nation for centuries.

        The doctrine of territorial integrity does not effectively prohibit unilateral secession from established states in international law, per the relevant section from the text of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, also known as the Helsinki Final Act, Helsinki Accords or Helsinki Declaration:[34]

        IV. Territorial integrity of States

        The participating States will respect the territorial integrity of each of the participating States.

        Accordingly, they will refrain from any action inconsistent with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations against the territorial integrity, political independence or the unity of any participating State, and in particular from any such action constituting a threat or use of force.

        The participating States will likewise refrain from making each other's territory the object of military occupation or other direct or indirect measures of force in contravention of international law, or the object of acquisition by means of such measures or the threat of them. No such occupation or acquisition will be recognized as legal.

        In effect, this states that other states (i.e., third parties), may not encourage secession in a state. This does not make any statement as regards persons within a state electing to secede of their own accord.
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      • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
        From http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2013/12/10...

        Economic sovereignty extends 250 miles.
        All countries enjoy sovereign rights in the airspace over their territory, including their territorial waters, which nowadays extend 12 nautical miles from the shore. Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZs) come into play in airspace beyond that. Under the U.S. definition, an ADIZ is a zone in which civil aircraft must identify themselves and may be subject to air traffic control if they intend to travel from international airspace into sovereign airspace. (Most regulation concerning nonsovereign airspace relates specifically to civil aviation, leaving the rules for military aircraft somewhat up in the air, as it were.)

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  • Posted by katrinam41 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is beautiful! It may even be practical, and while we prepare whatever acreage we get, we can live aboard again, either anchored or maybe build a small dock for those of us who use boats. thanks !!
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  • Posted by robgambrill 4 years, 9 months ago
    In the recent standoff, only one in five Americans preferred shutting down the government to going along with a form of socialized medicine. In a nation of three hundred million, the lunatic fringe must have numbered around sixty million people.

    I don't presume *you* went along with the shutdown. It is just a recent event with polling data that suggests the number of staunch anti-collectivists in the United States. Apparently, we are legion.

    Now assume that only one in ten or twenty anti-collectivists would want to or be able to join Atlantis. We are looking at a fairly sizable city state there.

    My First Five Questions:

    1) Can anyone join Atlantis?

    2) Should Atlantis limit it's founding population?

    3) Can you buy your way in to Atlantis?

    4) Could you sell your holdings in Atlantis to a non-citizen?

    5) Should there be more than one Atlantis?
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    • Posted by  $  johnrobert2 4 years, 9 months ago
      This is only my opinion and is in no way official policy:

      1) Conditionally.
      2) The founding population will, most likely, be limited by initial support structure; housing, food supplies, power production, etc.
      3) Depends. Looters with money won't be welcome. They produce nothing which adds to the value of the enclave.
      4) No. You can sell to an established citizen or to one whose credentials have been established and passed by the "immigration board".
      5) Let's get the first one up and running before seeding colonies.
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      • Posted by robgambrill 4 years, 9 months ago
        Perfectly reasonable answers.

        A point or two on #2 and #5 that relate to the safety of numbers.

        Although there are numerous examples of smaller forces overcoming larger ones in warfare, generally one would prefer not to attack Atlantis without at least a three to one advantage. Assuming all able-bodied citizens in the reserves of a modern defense force, three to six million defenders should require at least around ten million soldiers in the looter force. That is nothing to sneeze at.

        Given that the enemies of Atlantis may wish to destroy it even more than they would like to plunder it, not having all your eggs in one basket might not be a bad idea.

        Edit--Fixed Grammatical Error 12:55 CTD
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        • Posted by  $  johnrobert2 4 years, 9 months ago
          Granted. However, financial ability to go balls to the wall at the outset is a major problem. Incremental may be our only option. Get as many in initially as can be supported, then add as supporting structure comes on line. You got 20 mil? That's what we figure initial bottom start-up to be.
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          • Posted by robgambrill 4 years, 9 months ago
            No on the 20 mil. However if I had solid customers from within Atlantis who needed to trade with someone outside I might be able to get in on the one of the following waves.

            B.T.W. as this is a movie site, have you seen Neill Blomkamp's "Elysium"?
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            • Posted by  $  johnrobert2 4 years, 9 months ago
              The island in the sky thing?
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              • Posted by robgambrill 4 years, 9 months ago
                In a nutshell...
                Elites pull off to space platform. Somehow they are the only ones who are successful. The rest of the world wants desperately to get into "Elysium". During a coup, the world gets citizenship (Loots Elysium).

                Collectivist movie, but if you think the US and Europe have immigration problems consider what happens if Atlantis stops the motor of the world.
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                • Posted by  $  johnrobert2 4 years, 9 months ago
                  Yep, seen it.
                  Atlantis won't stop the motor of the world, we'll just let it wind down. As for the immigration problem, it is one of the main reasons I have been advocating a reasonable naval force to withstand such, an island being the location of Atlantis.
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            • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
              The absolute minimum that a member or couple would be required to put into Atlantis would be $250 K. I'm guessing more like $500 K per person will be necessary including people's businesses, etc.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 4 years, 9 months ago
                Well... then I'm starting a Thriftlantis.
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                • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
                  I have been looking for sites as inexpensive as I can, and every one of those that I have recommended has been shot down as too small. Until we have at least a dozen people willing to put up $500 K each, or at least one person willing to put up $5 million, strategizing for Atlantis is a waste of time.
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 4 years, 9 months ago
                    I've mostly stayed out of this because it's not something I can do. I'd have to leave my grandson and my elderly parents to shrug. (I know, not very galt like, but my happiness is vested. Plus, one can't home school and/or teach a child about objectivism from afar, and THAT is my most valued purpose for the forseeable future.). But, happy planning :)
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                • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
                  How about this for Thriftlantis?
                  I know it is in the US, but a Key West lagoon with 62 acres (mostly water) up for auction with an assessed value of over $6000 with $180 in back taxes and a top bid of $770 with only two days left. I wonder if any of it is buildable.

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                • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
                  Regarding a Thriftlantis, CG has recommended buying an island that has a small hotel or resort on it, preferably one that just got foreclosed on, so that we could minimize the upfront costs to some of the less wealthy Gulchers. Moreover, this allows for a slower development pace and an income stream during the eventual transition. If we were to buy and operate such a resort as a resort most of the time (timeshare?) and a site for Gulch conventions at others, that is probably the best "cover" we could have. It would make a navy far less necessary, for instance.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
      I rejoiced at the government shutdown.
      1) Anyone can apply to join Atlantis, but there will be a board to decide who is permitted much like country club admission. We do not want people in Atlantis who are going to cause enough of a disruption that we might eventually have to ask them to leave.

      2) Atlantis' founding population will be limited as much by affordability of a space as anything else. I was guesstimating 20-50 citizens (at least at first).

      3) Buying one's way into Atlantis will be necessary to some extent, but a rich liberal will not be accepted.

      4) Sale or inheritance of Atlantis holdings to non-citizens is possible if the non-citizens are willing to live by Atlantis' code. Otherwise, Atlantis citizens will make a reasonable offer to buy out the non-citizen.

      5) Multiple Atlantis sites are possible. In fact, some prefer multiple sites. Many prefer simply a virtual Atlantis, and judging by the lack of enthusiasm I have seen from most of the Gulch citizens, I don't think we have critical mass to go forward at this time.
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      • Posted by robgambrill 4 years, 9 months ago
        Regardless of whether it ever actually gets built, I thought that this exercise serves a purpose in that it gets people to consider what it would take to leave and start up fresh.

        I had a mechanical engineer once tell me that the value of an engineering education wasn't in all the facts you learned, but that it's value was in that they teach you how to think about the world.

        To be quite honest, I thought you were just making your point in said fashion. I would be really surprised if 20 to 50 of you all actually disappeared.
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        • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
          Many of us do have spouses that don't contribute much to the Gulch online. Many of those spouses will not want to leave. I agree 20-50 people leaving is probably optimistic.

          I agree completely on what it would take to leave and start fresh, and on the value of an engineering education.
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  • Posted by TexanSolar 4 years, 9 months ago
    A primary requirement for Atlantis is that it must not be tied to the Grid. Atlantis must have its own independent power and water supply.
    I have designed a solar collector that produces both electricity and steam. I have also designed a Multiple Effect Desalination Unit that uses the steam output to desalinate seawater or brackish groundwater.
    A solar farm of Bradford Collectors will economically provide for all of the energy and water requirements of an Off-Grid Community.
    including water for agriculture.
    Atlantis must be self sustaining in every way.
    The manufacture, installation, operation and maintenance of Bradford Collectors and associated systems can provide many jobs for the citizens of Atlantis.
    The city of Independence, Texas as proposed by Glenn Beck provides many ideas on the organization of a community like Atlantis.

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    • Posted by Robbie53024 4 years, 9 months ago
      It is nearly impossible for any enclave to be totally self-sufficient. You want power (ostensibly to run electric lights and other appliances at least, and computers and other tools as well is my guess). These other items cannot be produced without materials that are not found in sufficient quantities in any single area. You might need silver, iron, copper, and rare earth metals for those electrical devices, which are unlikely to be found in any enclave the size of Atlantis. Thus, external trade will be a de facto requirement.

      I agree that it should not be dependent upon the outside world for survival, but it would likely do so merely to maintain convenience/productivity items.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
      I promise not to compete with your desalination unit if you promise not to compete with my waste-to-energy, fuel, and chemicals plant. We likely will have to work together often, TexanSolar.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 4 years, 9 months ago
    Do you teach them how to construct a parameter diagram? That would help to facilitate the exercise as only those things that actually relate to the system should be included (that random tornado, lightening strike - in most cases, but not all - and solar storm shouldn't make the cut).
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  • Posted by radical 4 years, 9 months ago
    An interesting sidelight in reference to Ayn Rand's philosophy: Two blocks up the street from my office is an antique shop owned by a lady in her late 50s. She is a lady of some wealth and not afraid to show it - several expensive cars, 5 houses, diamond Rolex watch, etc. She is mentally lightning quick - fast on the reply when I mentally joust with her. She is married, and at the age of 80 I am "over the hill," so there is nothing romantic in our friendship. She is very assertive and aggressive - and very attractive. I have told her that she reminds me of Dagny Taggart, and then went on to explain what that meant. She was flattered, and didn't think that I was b.s.ing her. If she had, she would have told me right away. Dagny should be the benchmark against whom all other women are judged.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 4 years, 9 months ago
    Too big a project for me. But that won't stop me from putting my two dollars in (2 cents no longer exists). Any Atlantis must have two immutable laws. I have mentioned them in the past, and probably will continue to do so. They are:
    1. MYOB Mind Your Own Business
    2. The right to say No and be respected for it.
    As to the rest -- carry on.
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  • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 9 months ago
    1. How will we protect it from physical detection?

    2. Do we have the electrostatic dynamo? If not, how do we generate power?

    3. Find a good source of potable water--a stream, a river, or even wells.

    4. How will you recruit, train, equip, and deploy a militia to guard Atlantis?

    5. Will the Gulch have a navy? Even if it's just the one ship?

    6. How many commodities might one trade in the economy? Gold and silver coin, of course--but why not receipts for oil, coal, timber, and so on?

    7. Full-reserve banking. No more fractional reserves.

    8. Temporary solutions for goods Atlantis might need but cannot produce itself.

    9. Organization: is it largely a feudal society, with major landowners keeping up roads and having rents or other profits pay for them?

    10. Information and communications.

    11. Competing and parallel infrastructure for power, water, information, etc.?
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    • Posted by radical 4 years, 9 months ago
      Answers to Temlakos' questions: 1) We won't; 2) windmills, dams and water wheels; 3) All three; 4)The citizens, as in the early U.S.; 5) No; 6)Definitely; part of a barter system; 7)A must! 8)"International" trade with the "outside" using the equivalent of bankers acceptances, bills of lading, etc.; 9) Yes; sweat equity will play a big role here; 10)Systems can be set up by the type of people who will populate the Gulch; 11) A kind of franchise arrangement will be necessary in the beginning, agreed upon by the pioneer settlers of the Gulch and those with the most wealth, with opportunities for all residents to purchase shares.
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      • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
        Regarding 2), windmills and hydroelectric will have to compete with my waste-to-energy and chemicals facility. Regarding potable water, a stream or spring would be nice, but desalination is probably a much more reliable long term bet.
        The Gulch will have a navy, but to start, it will be Ragnar's pirate sloop. The international trade issue is one we will need to consider carefully, lest we be "discovered". Regarding landowning, road upkeep, etc., I like what Temlakos and radical are suggesting, but there may not be enough land to even have what we would call roads. That really depends on how big Atlantis is. The purchasing of shares is a key issue to define.
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        • Posted by TexanSolar 4 years, 9 months ago
          A Bradford Collector uses 75% of available solar energy to produce both electricity and steam. The steam is used to desalinate seawater. My designs will economically provide for all of the energy and water needs of a self reliant co-operative community. I intend to never tie-in to the Grid with my systems.
          A perfect distribution of solar energy has already been accomplished by God. Why is the solar energy industry so focused on feeding into the Grid. The Grid under government control will be a tool of oppression of the populace. Your electricity rates will "skyrocket", as promised by Barak.
          My designs will be most economical in regions which are not served by the Grid and do not have adequate drinking water.
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      • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 9 months ago
        Say, radical, let's have some more imagination here. With regard to No. 8 above, recall the solution the Gulch had in the novel. Ragnar provided those goods. Those customers Ragnar told Hank Rearden he had within U.S. territory? The ones who paid him in gold (and he didn't say anything about making them pay him in gold)? None other than Midas Mulligan. He just didn't care to say it out loud.

        About No. 11: the only reason the Gulch didn't have competing infrastructure was that Midas Mulligan, as *the* landowner, contracted with Dick McNamara to string the wires, lay the pipe, etc., and paid for it from the rents that Francisco d'Anconia and other primary leaseholders paid him. And also because John Galt was the sole electric-power provider, because he had a technique for it that was as cheap as the air. Literally. Absent that, I see no reason for competing and parallel infrastructure.
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        • Posted by radical 4 years, 9 months ago
          Good comments. Some of my answers depart from AS. I was trying to offer more present day solutions while adhering to the philosophy of AS.
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          • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 9 months ago
            I ought to have said, I see no reason not to have competing and parallel infrastructure. In fact, I would suggest any Committee of Safety would welcome such a development as an enhancement to community security.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 4 years, 9 months ago
        " 2) windmills, dams and water wheels; "

        coal and wood fired powerplants to provide additional power after Hiraghm comes in and blows up all the windmills.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
      Very good list, Temlakos. I will chop this list up and put the questions into the appropriate categories at some point in the near future.
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      • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 9 months ago
        I was in a hurry, or I would have given you twenty-five items, as you seemed to ask for.

        I assume, by the way, that the *economy* is a feudal one, but the *civil* organization is a Committee of Safety, consisting of the major landowner and a few of the wealthiest individuals, or their proxies, or company officers.

        I wrote the Atlas Shrugged articles on Conservapedia. I proposed that John Galt, Francisco d'Anconia, and Ragnar Danneskjöld served as Atlantis' first Committee of Safety. John attended as Midas' proxy; Francisco attended as the largest primary leaseholder; and Ragnar attended as the contract mercenary. The Committee of Safety would be open to anyone willing to fund, maintain, or command such troops, crews, and/or installations as would enhance the physical security of the Gulch, and, when necessary, keep law and order. I proposed that Hank Rearden would join this Committee after Francisco liberated him from the outside, and Dagny would become a de facto member the instant she took The Oath on a New York street corner, with Francisco there to "administer" it.
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        • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
          The twenty-five items was what I expect of my students. I am willing to take any commentary I can get here in the Gulch. You made one of the more thorough lists so far.
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  • Posted by  $  4 years, 9 months ago
    Social impact issues
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    • Posted by readthebook 4 years, 9 months ago
      "'The police have been arresting them for leaving their jobs—they're called deserters—but there's too many of them and no food to feed them in jail, so nobody gives a damn any more, one way or another. I heard the deserters are just wandering about, doing odd jobs or worse—who's got any odd jobs to offer these days?… It's our best men that we're losing, the kind who've been with the company for twenty years or more. Why did they have to chain them to their jobs? Those men never intended to quit—but now they're quitting at the slightest disagreement, just dropping their tools and walking off, any hour of the day or night, leaving us in all sorts of jams—the men who used to leap out of bed and come running if the railroad needed them.… You should see the kind of human driftwood we're getting to fill the vacancies. Some of them mean well, but they're scared of their own shadows. Others are the kind of scum I didn't think existed—they get the jobs and they know that we can't throw them out once they're in, so they make it clear that they don't intend to work for their pay and never did intend. They're the kind of men who like it—who like the way things are now. Can you imagine that there are human beings who like it? Well, there are.…'

      "'You know, I don't think that I really believe it—all that's happening to us these days. It's happening all right, but I don't believe it. keep thinking that insanity is a state where a person can't tell what's real. Well, what's real now is insane—and if I accepted it as real, I'd have to lose my mind, wouldn't I?...'"
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    • Posted by readthebook 4 years, 9 months ago
      "'Deserting, the bastards! Deserting us, in spite of all the penalties we've set up! He's quit and the rest are quitting and those mills are just left there, standing still! Do you understand what that means?'

      "'Do you?' she asked.

      "He had thrown his story at her, sentence by sentence, as if trying to knock the smile off her face, an odd, unmoving smile of bitterness and triumph; he had failed. 'It's a national catastrophe! What's the matter with you? Don't you see that it's a fatal blow? It will break the last of the country's morale and economy! We can't let him vanish! You've got to bring him back!'"
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    • Posted by readthebook 4 years, 9 months ago
      "... went out of business last week, without reason or warning, so now I'm stuck. Those bastards seem to be vanishing somewhere. Something will have to be done about it.'

      "'The picture now is this,' said Wesley Mouch. 'The economic condition of the country was better the year before last than it was last year, and last year it was better than it is at present. It's obvious that we would not be able to survive another year of the same progression. Therefore, our sole objective must now be to hold the line. To stand still in order to catch our stride. To achieve total stability. Freedom has been given a chance and has failed. Therefore, more stringent controls are necessary. Since men are unable and unwilling to solve their problems voluntarily, they must be forced to do it.' He paused, picked up the sheet of paper, then added in a less formal tone of voice, 'Hell, what it comes down to is that we can manage to exist as and where we are, but we can't afford to move! So we've got to stand still. We've got to stand still. We've got to make those bastards stand still!'"
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    • Posted by readthebook 4 years, 9 months ago
      "'The world is crashing faster than we expected," said Hugh Akston. "Men are stopping and giving up. Your frozen trains, the gangs of raiders, the deserters, they're men who've never heard of us, and they're not part of our strike, they are acting on their own—it's the natural response of whatever rationality is still left in them—it's the same kind of protest as ours.'

      "'We started with no time limit in view,' said Galt. 'We did not know whether we'd live to see the liberation of the world or whether we'd have to leave our battle and our secret to the next generations. We knew only that this was the only way we cared to live. But now we think that we will see, and soon, the day of our victory and of our return.'"

      "'When?' she whispered.

      "'When the code of the looters has collapsed.'

      "He saw her looking at him, her glance half-question, half-hope, and he added, 'When the creed of self-immolation has run, for once, its undisguised course—when men find no victims ready to obstruct the path of justice and to deflect the fall of retribution on themselves—when the preachers of self-sacrifice discover that those who are willing to practice it, have nothing to sacrifice, and those who have, are not willing any longer—when men see that neither their hearts nor their muscles can save them, but the mind they damned is not there to answer their screams for help—when they collapse as they must, as men without minds—when they have no pretense of authority left, no remnant of law, no trace of morality, no hope, no food and no way to obtain it—when they collapse and the road is clear—then we'll come back to rebuild the world.'"
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