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jbrenner assigns HOMEwork - Planning Atlantis

Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago to The Gulch: General
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An assignment I give my students in almost every course I teach is what I call a questions and issues sheet. Students are asked to come up with a list of at least 25 questions and issues on a process design, product design, or failure analysis of my choosing. Students start by brainstorming either by themselves or in groups for 0.5 to 1 hour, and then categorize their questions and issues into the following categories: technical/engineering, economic, legal, regulatory, quality, environmental, safety, health, logistical, project management, and social impact. It is better for the questions and issues to be in the form of a question such that the question can be answered with a yes/no or a number. In that way, the exercise serves as a checklist to keep the project on track. Points are given for the number of questions, category coverage, identification of all of the key issues, depth of insight, creativity, and for thoroughness of the list. A critical issue not considered is often the project killer. Your assignment is to participate in this exercise for the development of a physical Atlantis.


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  • Posted by DennisJeeves 1 year ago
    Most critical thing to do: find people who are 1) sufficiently smart, 2) philosophically aligned, 3) and perhaps more importantly sufficiently collaborating, well adjusted and intellectually wise.

    It's an entire subject in itself on how one could potentially do that. If the appropriate people do not exist, everything else is a non-starter.

    Side note: one could use the example that you gave to judge the smartness of somebody.
    But it really could be any technical problem. This (i.e point 1) is actually the relatively easy part, ( not claiming it's easy)
    Point 3 is the hardest. I would recommend tiny projects, to address .3 :

    For example see my webpage section titled: "Examples of ventures that can start small: " :

    https://quberoot.wordpress.com/projec...
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
    Safety/security issues
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    • Posted by $ johnrobert2 9 years, 8 months ago
      Atlantis would be vulnerable to any outside force larger than a medium size city police force. Naval and Aerial defense would be untenable in an all out invasion sense.
      Naval: Purchase of a DPDO USCG cutter larger than 185 ft or a mothballed USN destroyer should take care of any minor incursions. Also, the Navy would have to be ASW capable. It would probably have to be refitted after having been demilled. Purchase would have to be through several layers to obscure final destination.

      Aerially, drones with air-to-air/air-to-ground capability should suffice for that defense. A small but very effective radar installation would be required. Can be had.

      Mind set should be inflicting a Pyrrhic outcome on any invader. I know it's pessimistic, but sometimes that's what is required to fight the hardest.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
      Naval issues
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      • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
        An island does provide some degree of security, but it is vulnerable to attack by a major navy like the US or UK.
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        • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 8 months ago
          There are piracy issues as well. A pirate will chase a big enough plum if its out there. The Gulch is a HUGE plum.

          Re government intervention - diplomatic relations? Then there's the Kingdom of Hawai'i conundrum - you have a powerful base of operations, logistically sweet. The government of Moochistan has a navy, and a big, bad-a$$ed one at that. They visit our government (whatever that is) and have the carrot, and the stick. Enter into relations with us, or we blockade you or bomb your island into a desert. Attack us? Go ahead, we'll go out of range, launch cruise missiles... and take what we want.

          Remember - the Japanese empire held a *lot* of island real estate, and fought for it ferociously, and a major world power came in, took them one by one and made them theirs.

          SO thinking of this - is an island really, from a security standpoint, a viable option? Just musing here...
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
      We will have to have our own security force.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
        "We will have to have our own security force."
        I'm firmly in agreement with the minuteman concept, for a Gulch or the US. This issue should keep a VERY low profile. Let the law enforcement and gov't authorities think they're providing the security. Don't leave room for critics to label us nuts. It *shouldn't* be this way, but it absolutely is. I agree with the other responses to this issue, but it would be very easy to paint them as nuts. Security needs to look to outsiders like what malls and corporations do.
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
          At least at first, I also think that the amount spent on national defense of Atlantis should be less than several others think. Being noticed is our biggest threat.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
            Agreed.

            A defense force would need to be constituted as any able bodied adult. As any person with any military background knows, there is a huge tail to tooth ratio - and logistics is what wins in the long run. Unfortunately, in a limited society, resources are going to be finite, so being noticed and subject to attack is the greatest threat.
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      • Posted by $ johnrobert2 9 years, 8 months ago
        A small, well trained, well armed security force under the direction of a well defined chain of command. Every individual will be required to own a rifle and handgun hand, routinely train and fire, and be a member of the reserve force (somewhat on the model of Switzerland). Some standardization should be expected but not required. I cannot shoot above a .270 without recoil mitigation. Since there is a requirement to shoot, at least on an annual basis, the government should supply reasonable amounts of ammunition.
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        • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 8 months ago
          I saw a reloader that would load several different calibers at the same time. I'll have to get some information on it next time I'm in the not so big city.
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          • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
            I used to have one of these and it worked great, but not several calibers at the same time. Took a few minutes to change calibers. Probably got about 250 pistol rounds made per hour.
            http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content...
            video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0__OViMc...
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            • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 8 months ago
              II have a linear multistage for my shotguns - the same one my dad and I used when I was a shootin' rugrat! Machined aluminum, super super sweet unit. but yeah, I have numerous die sets for that thing (thank goodness, as they're some oddball config, and nothing else fits.

              I also have my set of rifle/pistol presses still... I can't remember which I used for what, but they were set up so they worked optimally for whatever stage it was on - 2 people, and we could spit cartridges like nobody's business.

              All I need now... is bench space! (add an armory to the list!)
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        • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 8 months ago
          To add to this idea, unless you have a strictly specified arms list to expect any central source (I *hate* the idea of the *government* supplying such items - rubs the wrong way, sorry!) you are going to have both a logistical nightmare and interchangeability issues.

          My example - I shoot a 308. I'm *damned* good at it, actually. I also shoot a 45 ACP. In fact - those are my preferred calibers, on various and sundry platforms, for small arms fire. HOWEVER, I am cognizant that some people, for whatever reason, cannot handle various factors of either platform, usually around recoil issues, weight, etc. I have shot various of the 5.56 AR platform; while they are a easy shooting arm, I dislike them both on size and distance issues.

          This poses a conundrum, but there are answers to them; my first thought is that in addition to the platform the occupant supplies, they also must supply a sufficient quantity of ammunition *and* the component parts to reload up to whatever amount seems prudent. This takes into account annual (or semi-annual) qualification rounds, etc.

          I'm not against having a gulch-standard caliber/platform, but in so doing, one needs to figure out (a) what the actual potential threat is, (b) What other firearm uses will there be, (c) what the terrain, locale, and surroundings of the gulch are, and (d) what caliber can people either fire right off, or be acclimated to fire? If the Gulch Armory is empowered to make purchases and perform armorers duties on these arms, and are likewise empowered to maintain a stock of suitable ammunition for said armament, then fine. But if I am accustomed to shooting .45 acp with 185 grain JHP and the "regulation" gulch arm is a 9mm (easier to handle for some, but woefully underpowered in some opinions) I would then be forced to support something I would not use, blowing one of the core premises of the gulch out of the water.

          OK, this needs work, but I still feel it is not an insurmountable issue. Once we have answers to a-d above, then we can answer the final question - what would be an ideal caliber package for light / medium weapons? What would be a suitable quantity of ammunition per occupant? and finally, what happens when we have a shrugger who cannot (for whatever reason) use said platform?
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 8 months ago
            "suitable quantity of ammunition per occupant".... I'm' more icky'd out by that than the gun distributing... although I think all of it should be determined privately. If someone doesn't have one, but wants one and will learn then it's up to whoever wants to trade and teach for a value for value exchange of goods and/or services.
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            • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 8 months ago
              Sorry, between being a competitive shooter and having to come up with security plans like this before, it's second nature. No offense intended.

              OK, personally, when I was shooting trap & Skeet competitively, to stay in form, I would burn a minimum of a case of shells a week. Same with rifle marksmanship - I *had* to reload just to stay in ammo to, again, remain competitive.. Which is why I like the idea of "supply your own, roll your own".

              The thing that disturbs me most is what is the upper limit to our defensive capability? Do we build SSM's? 9 or 16" gun emplacements? Develop Cruise Missile capability and drone surveillance? If you're on an island somewhere, the threat - not of other countries, but of pirate action - is both real and deadly serious. which is why I commented the armament you have is relevant to where you are *and* the perceived threat. Example - we have bear, wild boar, and elk where I live. During "the rut", I carry a 44 mag, and hunt with either my 308 or a wildcatted 300 Weatherby Magnum - not because I'm trying to be bada$$, but it's what's needed to drop a bear or boar coming at you. Were I still in an urban area, using such a firearm would be silly. Not unnecessary, per se, but silly.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 8 months ago
                The capability has to match the threat. Yes. My husband has a story about not having enough when an animal charged him...it got ugly, but my husband won. Nothing like having something coming at you and reaching for your back-up hand gun on your hip, that you FORGOT to put back on your hip.... gah!!! His rifle butt has some scars.
                Also, my husband used to competitive shoot...EXPENSIVE sport. And the ammo reloading is never ending.
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                • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Virtual +10 there... it gets to the point of insanity, a jewelers lathe to make sure your cases are spot on and your bullets equal, concentric, and balanced... triple beam scales to double check each charge, brass weight - even shotgun wads for trap competition... I knew I had to quit, tho, when I was looking at powder grains and primer flash holes under a loupe, and flash-re-chilling lead shot and making my own custom pellet mixes (3 parts #7 1/2 to 2 parts 8) and eat mac and cheese to pay the gunshop. :-) (Yeah, I had it *really* bad!)

                  Back on topic - I agree defense is important, but it needs to be balanced with the other aspects of what we are doing - after all, one can't eat bullets, nor patch a broken arm with them!
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          • Posted by $ johnrobert2 9 years, 8 months ago
            How would you feel about a 5.65 Grendel? Good ballistics; what it hits, stays hit; can reload using readily available 7.39X62 cases.
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            • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 8 months ago
              Never shot one. Need expansion ratios, Ft/Lbs at the muzzle and at ranges out to terminal (and what terminal range is). Can it take down a polar or grizzly bear, or a small dangerous animal? And what platforms is it available - AR/AK, M1A, etc? Can it be shot auto as well as semi or bolt? Curious...
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