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When is the proper time to resist with force?

Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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Consider the question posed in this excerpt from John Ross' "Unintended Consequences"

Totalitarian regimes are wrong, so don't let the State enslave you'. That's like saying, 'Don't get sick'. The important question is, when do you know it's going to become enslavement? When is the proper time to resist with force?"
"Please elaborate, Mr. Bowman." Henry took a deep breath.
"The end result, which we want to avoid, is the concentration camp. The gulag. The gas chamber. The Spanish Inquisition. All of those things. If you are in a death camp, no one would fault you for resisting.
But when you're being herded towards the gas chamber, naked and seventy pounds below your healthy weight, it's too late. You have no chance. On the other hand, no one would support you if you started an armed rebellion because the government posts speed limits on open roads and arrests people for speeding.
So when was it not too late, but also not too early?"
"Tell us, Mr. Bowman."
"Professor Arkes, I teach a Personal Protection class off-campus, where most of the students who sign up are women. I'm seeing some strong parallels here, so please indulge me in an analogy."
"Go ahead."
"A woman's confronted by a big, strong, stranger. She doesn't know what he's planning, and she's cautious.
Getting away from him's not possible. They're in a room and he's standing in front of the only way out, or she's in a wheelchair—whatever. Leaving the area's not an option.
"So now he starts to do things she doesn't like. He asks her for money. She can try to talk him out of it, just like we argue for lower taxes, and maybe it will work. If it doesn't, and she gets outvoted, she'll probably choose to give it to him instead of getting into a fight to the death over ten dollars. You would probably choose to pay your taxes rather than have police arrive to throw you in jail.
"Maybe this big man demands some other things, other minor assaults on this woman's dignity. When
should she claw at his eyes or shove her ballpoint pen in his throat? When he tries to force her to kiss him?
Tries to force her to let him touch her? Tries to force her to have sex with him?" Henry took a deep breath and shrugged.
"Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I tell the women to fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air conditioning, great stereo, come on,just put on the cuffs.'
"I tell women that if that ever happens, maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music. But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to fight, and now it is too late." Henry realized he had been making eye contact with all the other people in the lecture hall, just as he did when he taught a course. Now he looked directly at the professor.
"How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?"


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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    he did breathe new life into by shedding the old establishment image they grew accustomed to. I suspect the OG looked at as hijacking, since he snatched the nomination despite what they wanted. They are still trying to get rid of him, which wouldn guarantee Hillary's victory
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    unfortunately you and I will probably not be around when the death spiral snaps. I say unfortunately because I would like to stare a politician in the face and say now you are seeing what you have accomplished. I trust you are proud of the accomplishment. but I am equally sure the politician would say it was so and so. blame is not something they will ever accept but you knew that.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not entirely true. If enough people shrug, in this instance absorb as much of they are offering without giving back anything, there will be fewer and fewer people producing. The government, without a body to steal from can't function, the situation is simply not sustainable and its only a matter of time.
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    AJ, you will never "over burden" the system because they want you and everyone else on the system. Your philosophy is if you can't beat them join them. Mine is the hell with them.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, I see where there could be confusion in my word choice.

    I mean "getting" they are more than willing to give, Instead of refusing and standing on your own you accept what they are offering with deliberate intent to overburden the system. In this way you are getting, receiving, what they are willing to give. Perhaps I should have used taking, but that implies you want something enough to take it.
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  • Posted by GaryL 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You say Hijacked while I say he breathed new life into the dying jackasses! Clearly the GOPe should be banned from ever owning guns, they will just shoot both of their feet off with them.
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  • Posted by starznbarz 8 years, 9 months ago
    "How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?" In today`s world, declared martial law for less than a catastrophic national event would probably be enough.. We know this govt. is corrupt, We know the vast majority of govt. officials - from the top down, will easily lie to our face and issue orders that will compel us to participate, from seat belts to health care. We are about to vote on whether to stand next to the van, or actually get in. Along the same lines - http://4thestatemedia.com/?p=438
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    He hijacked the party (which was dying on the vine) and they hate him for it and want him to fail. Problem they have is that his support is all that is left in the party !!!
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    All I could think of when I saw her being carried into that van after she collapsed was the movie "weekend at bernie's", where she was dead as a doornail but they propped her up so as to make it seem she was still alive
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  • Posted by GaryL 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Breaking news! I am listening now to SHEEP Herd SMITH on the FNC and he claims Trump just told the GOPe to go spank the monkey! Game on fellows!
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hi, FFA:
    All of the above.
    My Grandpa would look at me in wonder and would say "Youll never understand how good you have it here." I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers, before and after him have said those very words to their children and grandchildren. To them, we were at a never-ending feast of prosperity, even during depressions and recessions. Compared to Europe, Africa, and Asia, we were mountain next to a mole hill. As a child I was unable to fully comprehend what America meant to him. What I'm getting around to is that we were so better off than the rest of the world that the left-wing politicians were able to get away with foisting all sorts of horrible acts on America without so much as a mutter from the populace. Only now, when the laws and regulations have become so ergregious that they are finally impinging on the consciousness of the great unwashed.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "They come in looking good, and leave a wreck !!"
    Hillary has the advantage then. She is already death served cold.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think you're missing a key point...you are "getting" what they are willing to give specifically to create more of a burden on the system so it will fail more rapidly. You aren't "getting" to simply not work, you are doing this, taking what you can, knowing the system cannot sustain itself and to bring about its demise.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly. Its somewhat hard to do, and you can only go so far without damaging your own life. BUT, if everyone cut back by 10% on their expenses, it would make a huge difference in what the government could do (at least until it figured out how to raise the tax rates to get them back in the black). I downsized my car and my driving, and keep a spare car which is 9 years old now and which I will probably never sell. House maintenance one cant do much about, but remodeling (except for DIY) is pretty much off the table. House downsizing is in the cards for me, as property taxes are a BIG part of destroying education for our youth.
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  • Posted by diessos 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am considering that. First i plan to disconnect my cable (but keep my internet). i can always stream or watch any shows i want online. I was thinking of a new car but think i'll just run the one i have till the wheels fall off to avoid paying the taxes. Next, downsize the house and take the 1 time capital gain exemption... etc. "Do not attempt to rise on the looters’ terms or to climb a ladder while they’re holding the ropes" - J. Galt
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I really enjoyed the movie JERICHO on Netflix. I substituted the collapse of the currency for the nuclear bombs, but it was interesting to see how they played the rebuilding process. Currency collapse is a quite likely scenario, and would happen pretty quickly when it gets started.

    There arent many prime movers today. Production is done by multinational amorphous corporations driven by PC. There just arent any prime movers to shrug and make a big difference instantly.

    Rebuilding along rational lines wont happen until the cultural philosophy changes. It hasnt so far. Look to Venezuela- the people seem to be just looking for socialism to be done "better" with perhaps a new socialist leader.

    Shrugging will cut the flow of money to the government, which will collapse when it cant pay its minions.

    Until the cultural philosophy changes, taking up arms in a revolt would be useless. Who would you revolt against? Your own neighbors who talk freedom but support statism openly?

    I have used support for Hillary as a really good litmus test way to weed out people from my life who I really dont want to be around. Talk about profiling !!! I suppose they do it to themselves, but once I find out they support hillary, they are "dead to me" (as Mr Wonderful says on Shark Tank).
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly. One would need to be very healthy, probably young and strong, and willing to live in remote places like south american jungles. Otherwise, we have to wait for the government here to run out of money to pay its minions.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that guns are somehow obsolete. In this age of technology I have a feeling there are other self defense methods that are quieter, can be lethal OR non lethal, dont rely on expert aiming, etc. We should be looking at how to make those. The statists will still want to protect their government from us in the end and make them illegal, BUT maybe they can be made in 3D printers and such on a mass scale where regulation isnt practical.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    well, thank you. I dont think I have what it takes to be hammered all day having to listen to liberal diversions and propaganda all day. Plus, to get through substantive reforms would meet incredible resistance, as trump has found out, from the establishment.

    Look at what its done to each president. They come in looking good, and leave a wreck !!
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    if your intent is to get what you can from the system as you suggest then you are in effect joining them!
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  • Posted by Zero 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    JG directly targeted the prime movers. No such events are happening here.
    Today, shrugging is just walking away and letting it die. There is no reason to believe it will be rebuilt along rational lines.

    But realistically, only a SeaStead or SpaceHab will give us the chance to start right.
    I suppose we just shrug until then, eh? Since I know I could never take up arms against America - no matter how corrupt.
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