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When is the proper time to resist with force?

Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 6 months ago to Philosophy
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Consider the question posed in this excerpt from John Ross' "Unintended Consequences"

Totalitarian regimes are wrong, so don't let the State enslave you'. That's like saying, 'Don't get sick'. The important question is, when do you know it's going to become enslavement? When is the proper time to resist with force?"
"Please elaborate, Mr. Bowman." Henry took a deep breath.
"The end result, which we want to avoid, is the concentration camp. The gulag. The gas chamber. The Spanish Inquisition. All of those things. If you are in a death camp, no one would fault you for resisting.
But when you're being herded towards the gas chamber, naked and seventy pounds below your healthy weight, it's too late. You have no chance. On the other hand, no one would support you if you started an armed rebellion because the government posts speed limits on open roads and arrests people for speeding.
So when was it not too late, but also not too early?"
"Tell us, Mr. Bowman."
"Professor Arkes, I teach a Personal Protection class off-campus, where most of the students who sign up are women. I'm seeing some strong parallels here, so please indulge me in an analogy."
"Go ahead."
"A woman's confronted by a big, strong, stranger. She doesn't know what he's planning, and she's cautious.
Getting away from him's not possible. They're in a room and he's standing in front of the only way out, or she's in a wheelchair—whatever. Leaving the area's not an option.
"So now he starts to do things she doesn't like. He asks her for money. She can try to talk him out of it, just like we argue for lower taxes, and maybe it will work. If it doesn't, and she gets outvoted, she'll probably choose to give it to him instead of getting into a fight to the death over ten dollars. You would probably choose to pay your taxes rather than have police arrive to throw you in jail.
"Maybe this big man demands some other things, other minor assaults on this woman's dignity. When
should she claw at his eyes or shove her ballpoint pen in his throat? When he tries to force her to kiss him?
Tries to force her to let him touch her? Tries to force her to have sex with him?" Henry took a deep breath and shrugged.
"Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I tell the women to fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air conditioning, great stereo, come on,just put on the cuffs.'
"I tell women that if that ever happens, maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music. But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to fight, and now it is too late." Henry realized he had been making eye contact with all the other people in the lecture hall, just as he did when he taught a course. Now he looked directly at the professor.
"How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?"


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  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
    I prefer going Galt than fighting. There's a difference.
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    • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
      Where can you go?
      Unless you are quite wealthy, you must earn (Taxes) you must buy (more taxes) you must take care of your health (still more taxes).
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      • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 6 months ago
        Going Galt does not mean leaving society, just not producing to further the government. Back in the 1970s, as a chemist, I did not want to register with the government because that would take away some of my future freedom. So I decided to go some other way than to help support a lot of you guys with new knowledge. Want knowledge, get out of the way. For the number theory that was my other interest, I decided not to try to publish due to the possibility at the time of running into the government's program to stop publications in certain areas of number theory. So I decided to start a small lawn care business with all the work done by myself and thus minimize taxes and only give value to my customers. I also got four months a year vacation to do math and study various sciences and I did neglect politics and religion but read mostly Austrian economics and Rand's works besides math and physics and chemistry. In that way I went Galt, but did not have to find a mythical gulch to hide in for over 40 years. I have everything I need, a house, 1500 books, TV's, computers, expensive math software, etc. There is nothing about reality that requires one to acquire great wealth and a high standard of living. Also it is best to stay away from time wasters such as drugs, alcohol, religion, and too much helping of others who can help themselves and who can eat you alive and leave you with little time for the important stuff.
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        • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
          So, you paid taxes on 8 months income, on what you purchased and for services. Even if you never worked another day, you'd have to show the money you lived on as income. But, I understand that you were staying off-grid to a great extent. Not total freedom but only one handcuffed instead of two.
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          • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 6 months ago
            Short of anarchy which cannot work, it is necessary to pay for some government. The idea is to lessen the government to a small enough tax income to just pay for governing services and not have enough for anything else.

            I did have the advantage of having found a three room house that rented for $720 a year for 27 years. That helped a lot. In the 1980s I tried health insurance for a few years, but the premiums kept increasing 15% a year so I went the rest of the time without. Since the dear citizens of the USA threatened me with prison when I tried to opt out of Medicare, I use that and have $653 a month SS which I was forced to pay into.
            I have been on the grid all the time but have kept the heat down and no air conditioning until about 8 years ago. Now, things are much more expensive than what the cost of living increases would have been. For example, where I live now, back in those days the water and sewer were about $10 a quarter for 50,000 gal and today I pay $90 a quarter service charge plus about $10 per 1000 gal. If it wasn't for my luxuries like phone, internet, and cable with some premium service I would be on easy street. I also feed 8 cats and about 4 raccoons. Don't have a wife or kids, that helps a lot.
            Local government here sucks. Just lost my second vehicle because it was declared a junk vehicle because it wasn't moved in every 10 day period even though it was insured, licensed, and ran OK. The house I own is 90 years old and getting to the point of needing some updating for code. But I am 76 and have some stents and will not last forever, so it isn't too hard to keep up. Hope the rest of you have it fairly easy.
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            • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
              Anarchy would work just fine if the human race was mature enough to handle it. Unfortunately that may be many years in the future if we survive. You are handling your life the way you regard that's best for you. In my case, I was able to sock away enough to be debt free and have enough to live on so long as I maintain a modest life style, which I do. My only regret is that I don't travel anymore, but even if I could afford it, my body keeps me at home. The consciousness travels the universe, however.
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              • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 6 months ago
                Or, anarchy might only work in a savage society as Paterson wrote in "The God of the Machine" due to the way energy flows in a society. The governance in anarchy would be by the people through common law with too much strife to grow into a large society. I doubt that humans could even get along if the Gulch grew to more than the size of the valley and people started to get ideas that others thought wrong or maybe would infringe on the oath. Those in the Gulch had to keep in mind that they could be expelled or even killed by the true believers of the Gulch. I just do not believe that, after living among humans for 76 years, that anything other than very small religious or philosophical societies could survive without a governor of some sort being required, thus little prosperity and a communal existence.
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                • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
                  That's what I mean by maturity.
                  We were savages for many thousands of years before becoming somewhat civilized. It may take a few thousand more before we can achieve true civilization.
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
                    If human history is any indicator, technological advancement is no harbinger of philosophical advancement. And since we don't pass knowledge to our offspring, they can not gain from our experiences. We start over every generation. The notion that somehow that is going to change somehow seems premature.
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                    • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                      I remember my grandfather telling me about the controversy around the attack on Pearl Harbor and how many people were aware that FDR ignored the warnings and was responsible for the loss of life and other military assets to the Japanese.
                      I had never heard anything about it before and I was amazed. It is one of the things I remember most vividly about my grandfather. It was a moment when I realized he was treating me as a thinking adult instead of as a child.
                      The Bonus Army massacre by Gen. McArthur, Eisenhower, and Patton should be taught to everyone, but today almost no one knows it happened. Everyone who lived then is gone and the fedgov propaganda makes it almost impossible to believe those murderous actions of 3 WW2 heroes and a former president against innocent American civilians.
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
                        I looked up the Bonus Army and remember reading about it, but I'm not sure how that gets read into a massacre. The contract was that their bonuses had a maturation of 20 years but because of the Great Depression, they wanted an early payment and stormed Washington (occupying Federal property) in pursuit of their protests. It sounds an awful lot like Occupy Wall Street to be honest.
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                        • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                          No they didn't "storm" anything. They held peaceful gatherings in DC and were asked to camp across the river, so they did. Then the US army led by Mc Arthur, Patton, and Eisenhower led cavalry across the river and backed up with tanks against unarmed former soldiers, attacked the "Bonus Army" and burned them out of their camp.
                          As I mentioned, the real story has been modified to make it appear that the WWI soldiers were at fault, but they were peaceful.
                          The House voted to award a reduced amount to help the soldiers, but the Senate voted against it.
                          Congress could easily have solved it peacefully by issuing tradeable rights, setting up a free market for the rights to the soldiers bonuses so soldiers could sell them at a discount, but instead the feds used force against the patriots who fought WWI for America and survived.
                          This elegantly makes my point about government changing history to blame the innocent when they are no longer here to defend themselves.
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                          • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
                            You ought to contact Wikipedia and have them adjust their story there, because it reads very differently than the one you present here.
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                            • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                              They will listen to the "authorities" on history, so its a waste of time. Have you looked at the wiki page on climate change? Rubbish Excerpt:
                              "The scientific consensus on climate change is "that climate is changing and that these changes are in large part caused by human activities,"[60] and it "is largely irreversible.
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                              • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
                                If you never try, we'll never know. I've submitted things to Wikipedia and they are pretty good about putting them in as long as you cite a corroborating article or source as you've done. I just thought that since you have the expertise that you would be an authoritative source for them to consider. It's up to you.
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                                • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                                  You could be correct and I am incorrectly assuming it would not be that easy. What did you ask them to change and how did you support your request?
                                  If I lived in the immediate vicinity I could go to the source and provide something definitive that they might listen to, but I do not.
                                  Based on my reading of the climate and GW issues on wikipedia it is clear to me that they are biased in favor of the so called scientific consensus. The articles consistently downplay any who point out the weak arguments. They constantly quote the IPCC and the CRU as authorities even though those agencies have been exposed as trying to manipulate the data.
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                                  • blarman replied 7 years, 6 months ago
                    • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                      Statists count on the fact that we will not be around to remind the young what freedom was like, nor were our great gandparents around to tell us. They have re-written history to assure that the stark differences in liberty over the years are not apparent.
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                    • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
                      We should create a museum filled with actual working items from cars to cyclotrons for the devolved future. It would be made st strong and thick as to be impenetrable unless you could figure out the code to enter which would show that humanity had advanced to a certain level.
                      Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
                        I'm not arguing that we haven't made scientific advances, only that we still seem subject to the same moral frailties and foibles that have afflicted man since time immemorial. Yes, there has been some advancement in the adoption of the Constitution, but we've seen that society only 200 years later has largely abandoned much of it.

                        Your idea reminds me of an episode of Stargate SG-1 where the team finds a cave on a planet of Vikings with strange symbols on the wall. They figure out that they are actually clues to opening the vault door. One of the clues is being able to successfully identify the first five digits of pi. I think another had to do with the weight of a neutron in relation to a proton and the last the speed of light. Upon opening the door, one was greeted with a hologram image (interactive) of an alien being. The test, of course, was to wait and see when science had improved to the point that they would be willing to accept the notion that the gods of Asgaard were in actuality an alien race known as the Asgaard.
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                        • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
                          First of all, I haven't a clue as to why the same post got repeated 3 times. I think my computer is possessed and not by me.
                          For as long as I can remember, science has been ahead of societal evolution. It's comparable to giving a loaded revolver to a 5 year old. I guess we need to make our society smarter or our scientists dumber.
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                          • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago
                            One of my favorite books was "Jurassic Park". The movie adaptation was great on the thrill end, but completely missed the point of the book which was to emphasize the hubris of man in "controlling" nature. There was, however, one quote from the movie (which I don't remember in the book) which I just keep coming back to and which emphasizes your point exactly.

                            "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should!" (emphasis mine)

                            Science is great. But it should never be considered good. It is a means. The end comes from morality itself - not science.
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                    • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
                      We should create a museum filled with actual working items from cars to cyclotrons for the devolved future. It would be made st strong and thick as to be impenetrable unless you could figure out the code to enter which would show that humanity had advanced to a certain level.
                      Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
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                    • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
                      We should create a museum filled with actual working items from cars to cyclotrons for the devolved future. It would be made st strong and thick as to be impenetrable unless you could figure out the code to enter which would show that humanity had advanced to a certain level.
                      Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
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                    • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
                      We should create a museum filled with actual working items from cars to cyclotrons for the devolved future. It would be made st strong and thick as to be impenetrable unless you could figure out the code to enter which would show that humanity had advanced to a certain level.
                      Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
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        • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
          This recent development about $15 minimum wage!...I'm not too proud to take advantage of that! I'd be the most highly educated, most licensed burger flipper ever. I'd just go over to the local burger joint owned by a guy who used to be a neighbor and say, "Put me on your call list." Hell, I'll drop it to $13/hour for cash! Haha...
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    • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
      If enough people did strike (as consumers) and stopped participating in the political circus the system would collapse eventually, but force would still be required for liberty and free markets to prevail.
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      • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
        I think the essential element is to starve the government of resources. Then it falls of its own weight. Look at Russia in the 90's, Venezuela today. Right now, our country still has a lot of wealth that can still be expropriated by the government to maintain its control.
        Consumer strikes and substantial pulling in of horns (reduced spending) is a great way to cut the government off. Of course they will simply raise tax rates to compensate, but it will take awhile for them to respond.
        Engaging in alternative economy is another good way. Doing work and paying for work in cash or in kind is another way.
        i say that if everyone spend 10% less per year than they do now, the government would be in a world of hurt. Make that car last another year or two. Dont buy that new house. Switch from prepared foods that entail sales tax to fresh items that dont. Get a reverse osmosis water purifier and dont buy those little water bottles. Buy whatever you can online while there is still no sales tax (that eliminates amazon though).

        As Hank Rearden did in AS, try to slow down the political process where possible. That means Trump this time around. Isnt perfect, and the slowdown wont last long, but a few years is significant.
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        • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
          Yeah, just withdraw as best you can. I'm without debt anymore. I set aside funds for a gargantuan rainy day. I quit voting. Quit watching the recent debates. Rarely watch pro sports (rarely have time). I interact with my kids as much as possible. We either "staycation" or take fun family trips that we can drive to. I don't run my family through the rape machine at the airport (see my recent post about sexy time on my last trip).

          I think it's wise for all of us to start researching other places to go, perhaps formulate a plan to get out in case it happens. I work with a like-minded guy who I go sailing with on occasion. Just today we were discussing the advantages of having a decent-sized sailboat as an escape pod. Sure, they can still chase you down, but...Anybody remember THX1138? Great movie - George Lucas' first movie. Near the end they stop chasing the protagonist, just calling off the chase because it exceeds the budget (not worth the effort). I realize this may sound paranoid. But, I'm just an apolitical guy who observes. It's clear to me that there are some real dark forces in play here now.
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          • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
            It's time to try and predict a timeline for the future. The outcome of this election is critical, I think, in terms of when the country will drift into socialism and what will happen. Trump will slow it down and inspire citizens here to be more responsible and collectively make the country a better place. He isn't perfect and he needs congress to allow him to unshackle us of course.

            On the other hand, if Hillary wins, cronyism gets really entrenched into our government, Obamacare gets changed into universal Medicare, $15 minimum wage gets in, deficit spending will increase, and Syrian refugees and terrorists will infiltrate the us. Government controls will become more pervasive and the fight to take guns away from citizens will intensify. We should look to Venezuela as the blueprint for our future under Hillary
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            • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
              I think we'll see massive force applied upon the citizens starting in three to six years of Hillary. However it could happen within the first six months.
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              • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
                I suppose they use force when the citizens dont comply willingly with what the government wants them to do, or try to protect their own interests in the face of government intrusions. The first thing will be the $15 minimum wage that people will try to get around by reducing staff of american workers (important due to increasing regulations granting more paid time off and health insurance issues), buying more subassemblies and services from china (somewhat risky in view of potential trade deals that will be made), and accelerating automation and use of robots (very important and under our direct control). I am doing all those things right NOW in anticipation of whats coming. Wait too long, and those actions will be "discouraged" or forbidden by government. 10-289 is indeed coming relative to laying off workers without some sort of fairly drastic penalties.
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              • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 6 months ago
                I agree, Hillary will not waste time applying force. A psychology professor once told us, if taken hostage, fight for your life, don't bargain, fight like hell, as you will likely be killed unless you escape. Hillary plans to take our guns, she plans to take free speech (certainly about science, making it a crime to speak out), she is on board with using guns against US citizens to enforce UN Agenda 21, which would take property rights, limit food, control reproduction, and end many industries. E-mails have been released with her admitting to her goal to dumb down the school system, saying, "Our goal is to create socially uninformed citizens." Any parent should be fighting angry over that goal for their children. We are already in the virtual gulag stage, and once elected the rest will follow in less than three years too many plans are already in the works. Training for the forceful implementation of Agenda 21 has been happening for a year now in Southern states. Plant Obama in the Supreme Court, and that gives her the right to do anything.
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                • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                  "Our goal is to create socially uninformed citizens"
                  I couldn't find that quote in a google search, Stormi, and I had not seen it before. I agree that would be a damaging statement to Hitlery and it should be spread widely. Do you have an online source to share please?
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                  • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 6 months ago
                    It came in WikiLeaks e-mail release which came last evening. Hillary was speaking to CFR members. IIt came from Freedom Outpost site, "Wiki Leaks Bombshell" was the title. This CFR goal goes back to Reagan when he wanted to do away with the Dept. of Ed., and their replay was, :We need it", but what we did not understand then was, it was to brainwash and dumb down.
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                    • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                      It was an email from Bill Ivey to John Podesta (mar 13-2016) not written by Hitlery. Couldn't find it at first because your quote was worded differently, and the original source of the article about it was from http://shtfplan.com
                      The email itself:
                      http://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/e...

                      It isn't nearly as damning of Hitlery as was claimed, imo, but does show the attitude of at least some of her staff.
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                      • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 6 months ago
                        It was very strange, the e-mail from Freedom Outpost contained two videos also and more detai, but in piecesl. But, when I forwarded them last evening to pals, they all went into the junk boxes, once I changed the subject line to something generic, with no WikiLeak or Hillary in it, it they went right into their inboxes. Has the censorship begun?
                        Someone called today and had read Kerry is on the wipe out all A/C rant again. He probably could not tell you what was in his unit! Had it not been for some A/C dorms, ourdaugher could not have attended college,as she is seriously allergic to grass, just someone mowing outside her window. These folks are nut, and have no intention of cutting off their own A/C. I was furious this week when I passed the union hall, sporting Hillary signs, for employees of a local industry which produces A/C units. These idiots are voting for the people who will put their jobs out of existence!
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                        • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                          I did see that article. At the end they note that it is reposted from shtf website.
                          I agree, sometimes it appears very little critical thinking goes into the decision of people on who to vote for.
                          No a/c. Sounds like the damn yankees (Kerry et al looters) want to irrationally punish the south again.
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        • Posted by diessos 7 years, 6 months ago
          I am considering that. First i plan to disconnect my cable (but keep my internet). i can always stream or watch any shows i want online. I was thinking of a new car but think i'll just run the one i have till the wheels fall off to avoid paying the taxes. Next, downsize the house and take the 1 time capital gain exemption... etc. "Do not attempt to rise on the looters’ terms or to climb a ladder while they’re holding the ropes" - J. Galt
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          • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
            Exactly. Its somewhat hard to do, and you can only go so far without damaging your own life. BUT, if everyone cut back by 10% on their expenses, it would make a huge difference in what the government could do (at least until it figured out how to raise the tax rates to get them back in the black). I downsized my car and my driving, and keep a spare car which is 9 years old now and which I will probably never sell. House maintenance one cant do much about, but remodeling (except for DIY) is pretty much off the table. House downsizing is in the cards for me, as property taxes are a BIG part of destroying education for our youth.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
          You are correct with the exception of Trump.
          I'd much prefer to vote for you, term.
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          • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
            well, thank you. I dont think I have what it takes to be hammered all day having to listen to liberal diversions and propaganda all day. Plus, to get through substantive reforms would meet incredible resistance, as trump has found out, from the establishment.

            Look at what its done to each president. They come in looking good, and leave a wreck !!
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            • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
              "They come in looking good, and leave a wreck !!"
              Hillary has the advantage then. She is already death served cold.
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              • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
                All I could think of when I saw her being carried into that van after she collapsed was the movie "weekend at bernie's", where she was dead as a doornail but they propped her up so as to make it seem she was still alive
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                • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                  Wishful thinking.
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                  • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
                    definitely wishful thinking. unfortunately if she croaked off, there would just be another one just like her to take her place. There are too many statist people in this country. If Hillary wins, I say there is no saving the usa, and it just needs to disintegrate and hit bottom. Hopefully by then, people might even understand what happened, but I kind of doubt that too.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
    Tough question. One reason it is so hard is the immense number of variables that can occur before the handcuffs come out. Once the handcuffs are exhibited, however, it's time to fight. Yielding to handcuffs is enslavement, and you change from an independent human to property. Any time you are confronted by a situation in which you can see that the next step will be harmful to your person by the use of force, it's time to fight, or flee.
    Case in point: I am old and pretty decrepit. It makes me an easy target. As a result I am expecially vigilant when I am out and about. I am sometimes armed, but only when I consider where I am going is a dangerous place. Otherwise, I am only armed with a pocket knife and a cane whose handle is brass in the shape of an eagle's head. At the parking lot of a neighborhood movieplex I was approached by a scruffy looking guy with a rather large jackknife who while ostensibly cleaning his nails, asked me for a ride as I was about to enter my mini van. Without much thought, I bopped him in the head with the beak end of my cane, jumped into the car and took off like old Jack Scratch was on my tail. I was still shaking when I got home, but a little hundred proof helped. My pants were still clean (I checked).
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
      Once Obamacare was passed, we lost control over our medical care unless we are rich. That was a really serious line to cross. If they outlaw gold like they did in the 30's and force us to a cashless society, that will be the end for me. Then they would have total control (handcuffs).
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      • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
        One cannot fight the government - alone.
        Rebellion is the only recourse, but that may well take many years and much privation to reach that point. The alternative to fight is flee. The problem is, where to?
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        • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
          Exactly. One would need to be very healthy, probably young and strong, and willing to live in remote places like south american jungles. Otherwise, we have to wait for the government here to run out of money to pay its minions.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 6 months ago
    Slippery question. I've thought about this quite a bit related to plot lines. The hard part is that individuals resisting or using force in resistance will be marginalized as radicals, crazies, criminals or terrorists. If a group acts out against tyrannical governance its considered a riot and can legitimately be met with force.

    The only real solution to to shrug or, since we can't get away, milk the system for all its worth and let it collapse under its own weight.
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    • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 6 months ago
      To milk the system is to give up!. An example is the black community. Years ago the Jesse Jackson's of the black community wanted reparations and they have been getting them ever since the inception of welfare a form of reparations and it has been going on for 60(?) years and 6 generations. The end result is a community of people who have no interest in working. This has led to all other ethnic groups to join the train ride. And all peoples coming here from other countries who have little of no education to begin with, and where are they on the same train. The system will ultimately collapse as you say.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 6 months ago
        I think "giving up" would depend on knowing your intent before you begin. If you go into it intentionally, specifically to take as much as you they are willing to give and give back nothing then I can't see that as giving up, I see it as a form deliberate malice. No violence. No one arrested, No threats.

        If "they" are stupid enough to.... its on them. In a way this approach reminds me of francisco d'anconia.
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        • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 6 months ago
          if your intent is to get what you can from the system as you suggest then you are in effect joining them!
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 6 months ago
            I think you're missing a key point...you are "getting" what they are willing to give specifically to create more of a burden on the system so it will fail more rapidly. You aren't "getting" to simply not work, you are doing this, taking what you can, knowing the system cannot sustain itself and to bring about its demise.
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            • Posted by gcarl615 7 years, 6 months ago
              I strongly disagree with the concept of taking what you can to speed the demise of the "system". This makes you a looter and a parasite. However, finding away to take back what has taken from you at the point of a gun, IE income taxes or Social Security taxes, is an honorable way to retain or regain the fruits of your productivity. I feel no remorse at taking every dime of SS benefits I get. I paid for them and will never get back what they stole from me.
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              • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 6 months ago
                I cannot see a way of taking back this country. Restoring its constitution is more and more a pipe-dream. Our people have become morally relative and its plainly evident in our politicians (and our two front running candidates). Short of blood being shed, that of tyrants and patriots, there is no solution, if even blood shed could be a solution, for this situation we're in. Your SS and my SS are gone..we'll be paid, you more so than I I'm sure, by loans from foreign powers to feel a bloated beast run by self-centered power mongers seeking to like their pockets.

                This veteran, this Constitutional Conservative has done more than my fair share to reverse this decline - served, commentary, radio, books. Its a lesson in futility, the people don't know who they are and they don't care what they are casually tossing away.

                Slash and burn? Sit and help in sink? Shrugging, running to hide, is not an option today.
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                • Posted by gcarl615 7 years, 6 months ago
                  I certainly agree that the Republic is gone and is probably in its final death throws. I do believe its not how much money you have right now, but what you do with what you have. Like beans, bullets and bandages.
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            • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 6 months ago
              when you say "getting" do you mean a hand out?
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              • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 6 months ago
                Yes, I see where there could be confusion in my word choice.

                I mean "getting" they are more than willing to give, Instead of refusing and standing on your own you accept what they are offering with deliberate intent to overburden the system. In this way you are getting, receiving, what they are willing to give. Perhaps I should have used taking, but that implies you want something enough to take it.
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                • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 6 months ago
                  AJ, you will never "over burden" the system because they want you and everyone else on the system. Your philosophy is if you can't beat them join them. Mine is the hell with them.
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                  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 6 months ago
                    Not entirely true. If enough people shrug, in this instance absorb as much of they are offering without giving back anything, there will be fewer and fewer people producing. The government, without a body to steal from can't function, the situation is simply not sustainable and its only a matter of time.
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                    • Posted by cowboynuclear 7 years, 6 months ago
                      The interesting point is that this is exactly what the Cloward/Piven folks have been doing for decades. Set up a way to take from the system, then do so as much as possible until the the system collapses, then change the world to high socialism or communism. The collapse will happen, it's just who paints the other side badly enough to either throw the republic completely away or restore it. Former is more likely with current education.
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                    • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 6 months ago
                      unfortunately you and I will probably not be around when the death spiral snaps. I say unfortunately because I would like to stare a politician in the face and say now you are seeing what you have accomplished. I trust you are proud of the accomplishment. but I am equally sure the politician would say it was so and so. blame is not something they will ever accept but you knew that.
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                      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 7 years, 6 months ago
                        Agreed. I would much prefer to be around when it happens if for no other reason than to get the satisfaction of seeing the destructive bastard suffer the consequences of their own decisions, whether they own up to it or not. Sadly today far too many don't even recognize the threads of the noose they are weaving around their and their childrens necks.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
      The first line of defense is passive resistance and getting away with whatever you can rather than give in to the government. We are already at that point, especially if Hildebeast gets in. Evade sales taxes wherever possible, engage in the cash economy wherever possible to avoid income taxes, and in general engage in conservation efforts to reduce the need for utility taxes.

      Second line of defense is to try and influence politics to slow down the process. This time around, thats Trump.

      If you cant leave, then the next line of defense is to hide in plain sight and live as much as possible under the radar. Avoid banks, use of credit cards, and other government controlled things.

      Then there is plain and simple shrugging. Reduce ones lifestyle so as to require less work and therefore less interaction with the government.

      The book "alongside night" is a great one concerning this subject.

      With the advent of the all powerful NSA and militarized local police, rebellion is not an option until the government just falls of its own weight and stops paying its minions. Only THEN is rebelling a good option.

      This process will take awhile, maybe 40-50 years,, unfortunately. Trying to slow down the degeneration of the country is a better bet for adults at this point in their lives, I think.
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  • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
    What stage was ?
    - Federal Reserve Act 1913
    - Sixteenth Amendment (Income Taxation)
    - Gun Control Act of 1968
    - Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 (federal Asset Forfeiture Program)
    - Crime Control Act of 1990 (gun free zones)
    - the Patriot Act 2001
    - creation of Fatherland Security 2002
    - bankster bailout blackmail funding 2008-2009
    - NSA warrantless surveillance and wiretapping 2001-2016
    - federally enforced mandatory medical insurance (Obamacare 2010)
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 6 months ago
      Each of those things are evil enough but with some creativity, can be gotten around with a little risk.

      The question is, at what point will we not be able to get around what ever they want to do.

      Look at the people in Cuba, they either work together to keep their cool cars goin, make money on the side, gaming the system at the same time or...take the plunge and float to Florida.
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    • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
      You will see national forced medical treatment under Hillary. I won't get into it here, but in some of my own work I have used the Nuremberg Code to defend my position on things. Yes...Nuremberg. Read the ten points of the Code to get an idea of what I'm talking about...
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      • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
        Thanks Abaco.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...
        The ten points of the Nuremberg Code
        1. Required is the voluntary, well-informed, understanding consent of the human subject in a full legal capacity.
        2. The experiment should aim at positive results for society that cannot be procured in some other way.
        3. It should be based on previous knowledge (like, an expectation derived from animal experiments) that justifies the experiment.
        4. The experiment should be set up in a way that avoids unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injuries.
        5. It should not be conducted when there is any reason to believe that it implies a risk of death or disabling injury.
        6. The risks of the experiment should be in proportion to (that is, not exceed) the expected humanitarian benefits.
        7. Preparations and facilities must be provided that adequately protect the subjects against the experiment’s risks.
        8. The staff who conduct or take part in the experiment must be fully trained and scientifically qualified.
        9. The human subjects must be free to immediately quit the experiment at any point when they feel physically or mentally unable to go on.
        10. Likewise, the medical staff must stop the experiment at any point when they observe that continuation would be dangerous.

        Do you propose that this may be used to avoid forced treatment?
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        • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
          No. Based on what I'm seeing they'll ignore it. Literally, the attorneys are in charge on this and they deem themselves qualified to ignore it. I could tell you a recent story on this, but would have to be over a beer - not here. I recently had to cite the very first rule in a meeting with a familiar organization (familiar to you).
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    • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 6 months ago
      Hi, FFA:
      All of the above.
      My Grandpa would look at me in wonder and would say "Youll never understand how good you have it here." I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers, before and after him have said those very words to their children and grandchildren. To them, we were at a never-ending feast of prosperity, even during depressions and recessions. Compared to Europe, Africa, and Asia, we were mountain next to a mole hill. As a child I was unable to fully comprehend what America meant to him. What I'm getting around to is that we were so better off than the rest of the world that the left-wing politicians were able to get away with foisting all sorts of horrible acts on America without so much as a mutter from the populace. Only now, when the laws and regulations have become so ergregious that they are finally impinging on the consciousness of the great unwashed.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
      You are right. Government controls medical care, the money and banking, taxation, transportation, Food production and distribution, medical devices and drugs, alcohol and recreational drugs, mortgages, education, employee hiring and regulations, housing in terms of who you can sell your house to, etc.

      There isnt much left for them to control- now its just going to be how much control they exercise and in what way.

      When they raise the minimum wage to $15, there will be layoffs, followed by 10-289 forbidding layoffs so as to control unemployment.

      Nothing is off the table now.
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  • Posted by Zero 7 years, 6 months ago
    I remember AR saying in a Q/A session, the time to resist was when we've lost the freedom of speech.
    Until that time it's our responsibility to persuade, but when that avenue is closed we have no choice but to revolt.

    Buuut, that may have been time to shrug - not take up arms. (I have learned not to trust my memory anymore. At my age facts have a half-life.)

    However, there must be a time when shrugging is not enough. There is no JG out there working to make it all right.
    Ultimately, shrugging does nothing to guide the future.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
      shrugging does starve the government of resources though, and ultimately thats what brought down the government in AS.
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      • Posted by Zero 7 years, 6 months ago
        JG directly targeted the prime movers. No such events are happening here.
        Today, shrugging is just walking away and letting it die. There is no reason to believe it will be rebuilt along rational lines.

        But realistically, only a SeaStead or SpaceHab will give us the chance to start right.
        I suppose we just shrug until then, eh? Since I know I could never take up arms against America - no matter how corrupt.
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        • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
          I really enjoyed the movie JERICHO on Netflix. I substituted the collapse of the currency for the nuclear bombs, but it was interesting to see how they played the rebuilding process. Currency collapse is a quite likely scenario, and would happen pretty quickly when it gets started.

          There arent many prime movers today. Production is done by multinational amorphous corporations driven by PC. There just arent any prime movers to shrug and make a big difference instantly.

          Rebuilding along rational lines wont happen until the cultural philosophy changes. It hasnt so far. Look to Venezuela- the people seem to be just looking for socialism to be done "better" with perhaps a new socialist leader.

          Shrugging will cut the flow of money to the government, which will collapse when it cant pay its minions.

          Until the cultural philosophy changes, taking up arms in a revolt would be useless. Who would you revolt against? Your own neighbors who talk freedom but support statism openly?

          I have used support for Hillary as a really good litmus test way to weed out people from my life who I really dont want to be around. Talk about profiling !!! I suppose they do it to themselves, but once I find out they support hillary, they are "dead to me" (as Mr Wonderful says on Shark Tank).
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  • Posted by mminnick 7 years, 6 months ago
    Very thought provoking. (+1). I don't think you should wait that long. Initial actions, the prep for the fight should start when he blocks the door. A high state of readiness to fight should be entered when the handcuffs appear and he starts talking about getting into the van. you pull the trigger when he moves toward you. Period.
    Look at the history of the revolution. It started with small things, little restrictions. When nothing was said/done, more actins were taken, more restrictions and taxes. finally the final action (Lexington) and the trigger was pulled.
    It has been argued by some that the trigger should have been pulled when the quartering of British troops in civilian housing was ordered without regard to personal and private property rights. That wold have been enough for me to start.
    Not sure where it is now, but we are past the no worries stage and well into the prep phase. IMHO.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
      We need to stop the NSA, whose job it really is to prevent revolution in the USA and protect our government. Revolution cant happen openly with the NSA as it is now.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 6 months ago
    The 2nd amendment is the guarantor of all the other constitutionally recognized rights. The residents of New York realized that a new law calling for mandatory registration of military style weapons and large capacity magazines was a direct assault on their 2nd amendment rights, and refused to comply (well, more than 95% of the estimated number of such gun owners in the state did). The state's reaction? Governor Cuomo was smart enough to realize that aggressive action to force compliance would likely result in outright armed rebellion, and chose not to push the matter.

    Hillary Clinton, if elected, will likely attempt to create a gun owner registration system, and demand that "assault rifles" be surrendered. I suspect such efforts will not get congressional approval, but she may attempt to push the envelope of what direction she can give the BATF with executive orders.

    When armed government force begins to be used to force gun owners to relinquish arms or ammunition, the die is cast. This is an echo of the Lexington and Concord uprising, and full scale armed rebellion follows.
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  • Posted by tohar1 7 years, 6 months ago
    Short answer could be gleaned from Thomas Jefferson's quotation...

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    Freedom & liberty must be defended at all costs. Once lost, they cannot be regained.
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  • Posted by dstrim 7 years, 6 months ago
    The time to rebel, shrugging or resisting is tough to define. Resisting, I hope everyone does it daily in their own way. Shrugging is ones' own timing and opportunity. Place to live with a roof over your head, food to eat. To be able to live with yourself and maybe by yourself. Perhaps lost of friends, family.
    Rebelling requires a very large committed group or you will be the ONE in jail. Like I tell my friends. As long as the people have their cable TV no one will rebel or come to the side of the one rebelling. As for me I'll be shrugging and let the world find it's own way.
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  • Posted by Blanco 7 years, 6 months ago
    I would say we're definitely in the preparatory state just before the violent state commences. Words like guns, ammo, gold, food and water come to mind. It's a decision that each of us has to search our conscience assiduously before acting (or not acting).
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
    We are getting really close. It's important for everybody to figure out where their own line in the sand is. I know where mine is, and I'm researching getting outa Dodge...because we're close.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
      Interesting to watch on netflix the programs on border security, particularly the one on USA border patrol. They have a lot of powers over people coming into the country, BUT also on leaving the country. One day it will be impossible to leave, I predict. In the meantime, there is "hiding in plain sight" as an alternative.
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 6 months ago
        Interesting observation. I often joke that "Trump's wall" isn't to keep other out - but to keep me in. I also firmly believe that it will eventually be impossible to leave legally.
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        • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
          I watched the border security episodes for Canada and Australia on Netflix. Very interesting that they both have very strict entrance requirements even for visiting- for instance a simple thing like a DUI in the USA will keep disqualify you from admittance into Canada or Australia. They just turn you away at the border of either of those two countries. No wonder they have no terror incidents !!!

          The USA border security doesnt seem to be as strict at all, but its very bureaucratic. No prescription pills come in without an accompanying paper prescription. No bananas can be brought even in one's carry on. $300 fine for not declaring two bananas. The lady couldnt even eat them in the customs area to avoid the fine.
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          • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
            Border security on non-native plants, fruits, and veg are very strict in Australia and NZ, too, but they wouldn't assess a fine on a traveler who did not understand. However, they do announce the restrictions clearly for those who read English. I had a few onion seeds in a bag with some sea shells picked up in NZ. I had no idea they were there, but I'm sure they came from our garden in NZ. The seeds were removed by customs agent and the shells allowed in to Australia with no fine.

            Australia is quite strict about keeping out older people (over 50) except as tourists (90 day visa) or as wealthy retirees (special expensive visa application.) Young people are accepted for work if they have a company sponsor who pays a fee of roughly $3000 and guarantees to pay the immigrant a salary equal or higher than the average paid to an Australian for a similar job and if there is no Australian who can do the job. There is also a fee (about $500??) paid by the immigrant for the work visa application.

            There was a weekly drama on tv in Australia for about 5 years called, Sea Patrol. It regularly showed attempts to immigrate illegally. This was fiction, not a reality show. Decent writing and acting, too. Much better than US reality fare.
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            • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
              The whole idea of not letting people come in to work seems kind of stupid. Better to let those people in than syrian refugees with minimal skils and no english !! Keeping people out with a DUI seems a little restrictive given how easy it is to get DUI here in the USA
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              • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                Australia's government has no particular affinity for Americans, and certainly not ones who may drive while under the influence. It isn't the Aussie governments job to be "fair" to immigrants or to analyze whether US law (passed by the consent of Americans) is too strict on its DUI's. In fact Australia is more strict on DUI law, IIRC.
                They have a beautiful country with an ocean to keep out the third world, and the second, and they choose to keep out the problem children of the first world, too, with the exception of Kiwis their closest allies. What is government's job? To protect the people from threats foreign and domestic. Most governments (and their people) include keeping their people employed over people from elsewhere. If you are well funded ($4 million++)and want to take your business there, you will be welcomed, unless your police report shows you have made poor choices. As in most countries I disagree with some of the Aussie government's choices, too, but they write the rules just as the assholes in the Dark Center stupidly write and disobey ours.
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                • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
                  i brought it up as an example of a country that has a "border". When trump wants the usa to have a real southern border, people decry that as racist and xenophobic. He should bring up the facts about what it takes to get into these other countries and how they have no terror.
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                  • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                    Good points. He should also admit that he is not truthful about building a wall that will not cost the taxpayers a fortune.
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                    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
                      I think what Trump had in mind was a "wall" that kept out illegal immigration, whether real or virtual (isnt the rio grande river part of the border actually?)I think he was also thinking that the mexican government wouldnt pay cash for the wall, but would be assessed duties based on renegotiation of NAFTA, and those duties would pay for it
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                      • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
                        Duties on products moving into the US will be paid by US buyers of the products. The net trade between US and Mexico was a deficit of $58 Billion more imports than exports in 2015. A duty on exports would be paid by non-Americans (i.e. Mexicans and others) but that would reduce the competitiveness of US exports and reduce the volume of exports hurting US businesses.
                        Trump's proposals are either bullshit lies or Trump is just too stupid to understand business.
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                        • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
                          oh, I think he understands business. A lot of rhetoric during campaigns is posturing in order to make better trade deals. The mexicans really do need to tighten up on their side of the border, if only for their own good. Losing 11 million population drains their labor pool too.
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      • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
        Hiding in plain sight still supports the state via the tax on your home, (not to mention the insanely overpriced insurance on your home.) Renters don't escape since they much pay enough to landlords to include the same costs. There is no escape in plain sight unless millions of consumers strike.
        It may appear to be preferable to escape to another country while we can, but few if any allow gun ownership adequate for personal security.
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        • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
          I think that guns are somehow obsolete. In this age of technology I have a feeling there are other self defense methods that are quieter, can be lethal OR non lethal, dont rely on expert aiming, etc. We should be looking at how to make those. The statists will still want to protect their government from us in the end and make them illegal, BUT maybe they can be made in 3D printers and such on a mass scale where regulation isnt practical.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 7 years, 6 months ago
    Upon reading this essay I took out of my file the course summary of "Can the Revolutionary Tradition Survive in the Over Developed Countries?" that was taught by a female Professor(whom I adored and got a B+in the course in 1970 2nd yr. semester of college). The following quote from that summary sums up my beliefs: "Revolutionary tradition is, above all, a moral tradition. For it says the world does not need to be this way. It does not, like Pangloss, rationalize evil. It teaches us to make our own ethical judgements of politics -- to base these beliefs on higher moral principles.".... " The way to encourage higher-stage moral reasoning is to have a society that takes moral issues seriously and allows participation by it's members." .... "The revolutionary tradition prevents everyone from slipping into the "silent majority." A sign on the November (1969) peace march said it well: "Tyranny always rests on the consent of the silent majority."
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  • Posted by Ed75 7 years, 6 months ago
    I have been asking this question for a number of years. I believe the "when" can vary between individuals. There are obvious government infractions that may trigger a mass revolt, but each of us must decide personally when to resist and how. Henry Bowman had an advantage over many of us. Not just his family wealth and not the least was his Quarry where he could practice his aim. :)
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  • Posted by a59430802sojourner 7 years, 6 months ago
    Take examples from John Galt and Hugh Akston. They refused to provide their abilities and took menial jobs to support themselves. To me that is what going Galt is and i have done so since the late 70s.
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  • Posted by chad 7 years, 6 months ago
    If someone is threatening you the time to stand up is now! Every advance after that compromises your ability to defend yourself and the opportunity to prevent your being a slave is diminished with each encroachment. In the final phase the decision is usually what will I take with me as I flee my home and hope to escape the intention and attention of the slavers?
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  • Posted by starznbarz 7 years, 6 months ago
    "How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?" In today`s world, declared martial law for less than a catastrophic national event would probably be enough.. We know this govt. is corrupt, We know the vast majority of govt. officials - from the top down, will easily lie to our face and issue orders that will compel us to participate, from seat belts to health care. We are about to vote on whether to stand next to the van, or actually get in. Along the same lines - http://4thestatemedia.com/?p=438
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  • Posted by scojohnson 7 years, 6 months ago
    Using your analogy, a move to repeal the 2nd Amendment would be the point at which the society could no longer fight or defend itself, and is the sole reason for the 2nd Amendment. That should and would likely be the point to stand and fight.

    The 2nd Amendment was put in place because the states feared a standing federal army which was "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State," doesn't have anything to do with only the militia able to hold weapons as the liberals would want you to think, it states that because a standing Militia is required for the security of a free state (the United States), the right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed". Meaning, it is the Right of the People to defend themselves from the State, or the standing Militia.

    Repealing the 2nd Amendment, would in essence, be repealing the right of the people to defend itself. That would and should be the last stand.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
      I agree completely that disarming the people is crucial (although it is not the only signal of the time to resist.) I think repeal of the 2nd amendment is too obvious to be attempted and the time to resist will be more subtle. Disarming of the people was started in Germany as early as 1919 and increased over the years until Hitler gained near complete control. The Gun Cotrol Act of 1968 is remarkably similar to gun cotrols in place in Germany at that time. It was also true in England. Germany carefully avoided invading Switzerland where every adult male was trained with machine guns to repel invaders. Germany instead chose to attack England where an invasion would involve crossing the channel and supply lines would be much more difficult. England was appealing because the citizens were disarmed and would be much less able to defend. The French had the same problem, and Hitler conquered them in two weeks. Americans came to the rescue. There is no one to rescue America but ourselves.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 6 months ago
    A decade or so after 1776, a President Bush blowing $4 million--not trillions--on poor management "too big to fail" would have filled DC's streets with armed patriots from all over, who would likely have devolved into a lynch mob.
    No hypocrite (for calling Bush a traitor) would soon come along and jack the debt up even higher and get away with saying it was all Bush's fault. He would have been lynched too, and no he would not be a black guy at that point in history so let's not go there, thank you very much.
    In these modern times no one did squat when Bush raised the debt by $4 trillion and all the hypocrite's $6 trillion wrought was a Tea Party rated G sequel, whose huge visitation tidied up so as not to leave a mess.
    Nancy Pelosi called these "grass roots" of America "AstroTurf" and then the benign protestors drove back home. That's about all old dino got out of that.
    It also seems to old dino that Americans these days will resist tyranny with force only when the progressives progress to requiring sacrifices of the first born.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
      It has been proven conclusively in the past 7 years that voting for a candidate based upon the candidate's skin color is a big mistake. Voting based upon a candidate's gender is just as big a mistake and in the next few years that will also become clear to anyone who can reason.
      I agree, dino, that there are very few serious American patriots visible today.
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  • Posted by GaryL 7 years, 6 months ago
    I think Nov. 8th would be a great time to use our force in the voting booth. Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, MSM all a bunch of morons that we hate and they all hate Trump and that makes him OK in my book.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
      I agree. The vitriol against Trump is enough reason to vote for him. The crooked establishment is showing their intentions by going after Trump. He is a threat to them, and we NEED him to win.
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      • Posted by GaryL 7 years, 6 months ago
        Breaking news! I am listening now to SHEEP Herd SMITH on the FNC and he claims Trump just told the GOPe to go spank the monkey! Game on fellows!
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        • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
          He hijacked the party (which was dying on the vine) and they hate him for it and want him to fail. Problem they have is that his support is all that is left in the party !!!
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          • Posted by GaryL 7 years, 6 months ago
            You say Hijacked while I say he breathed new life into the dying jackasses! Clearly the GOPe should be banned from ever owning guns, they will just shoot both of their feet off with them.
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            • Posted by term2 7 years, 6 months ago
              he did breathe new life into by shedding the old establishment image they grew accustomed to. I suspect the OG looked at as hijacking, since he snatched the nomination despite what they wanted. They are still trying to get rid of him, which wouldn guarantee Hillary's victory
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  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My request was several years ago and was an archeological/historical question. They have since brought on board many new proofers responsible for vetting new content. I would be surprised if there weren't a few liberals in there such as the ones reviewing the climate change stuff. But if we give up without trying...
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 6 months ago
    I just got a release that said the reason we can't find any info on the WikiLeaks releases about Hillary by doing a search, is because we are being misdirected. Clinton top aids met with Google and the company has changed the search you type in, to read something less negative. No searches on Hillary health, no searches on Hillary WikiLeaks releases, the end of the search is purposely altered to something else, less damaging to Hillary. Goggle has changed the way they fill in the end of the item you type in.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 6 months ago
      That makes some sense, just as the media do hot have any articles that expose the crimes of Hitlery. I used the search on the wikileaks site itself and found the email, so they may not be using a google tool for the wikileaks site, but you have to know which set of data to search there to get valid results.
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      • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 6 months ago
        I get aggravated at times, as even with the right information, the Internet does throse in some bone headed options. It definitely is worse since Obama turned it over to the UN Oct. 1, sometimes I will click a site, and get something entirely unrelated. Once cannot be sure if our e-mail providers are in the tank for Hillary also. what a shame, we had the best Internet, the best freedom, all we needed was to be rid of Obama, but now we have Hillary!
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