When is the proper time to resist with force?
Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 7 months ago to Philosophy
Consider the question posed in this excerpt from John Ross' "Unintended Consequences"
Totalitarian regimes are wrong, so don't let the State enslave you'. That's like saying, 'Don't get sick'. The important question is, when do you know it's going to become enslavement? When is the proper time to resist with force?"
"Please elaborate, Mr. Bowman." Henry took a deep breath.
"The end result, which we want to avoid, is the concentration camp. The gulag. The gas chamber. The Spanish Inquisition. All of those things. If you are in a death camp, no one would fault you for resisting.
But when you're being herded towards the gas chamber, naked and seventy pounds below your healthy weight, it's too late. You have no chance. On the other hand, no one would support you if you started an armed rebellion because the government posts speed limits on open roads and arrests people for speeding.
So when was it not too late, but also not too early?"
"Tell us, Mr. Bowman."
"Professor Arkes, I teach a Personal Protection class off-campus, where most of the students who sign up are women. I'm seeing some strong parallels here, so please indulge me in an analogy."
"Go ahead."
"A woman's confronted by a big, strong, stranger. She doesn't know what he's planning, and she's cautious.
Getting away from him's not possible. They're in a room and he's standing in front of the only way out, or she's in a wheelchair—whatever. Leaving the area's not an option.
"So now he starts to do things she doesn't like. He asks her for money. She can try to talk him out of it, just like we argue for lower taxes, and maybe it will work. If it doesn't, and she gets outvoted, she'll probably choose to give it to him instead of getting into a fight to the death over ten dollars. You would probably choose to pay your taxes rather than have police arrive to throw you in jail.
"Maybe this big man demands some other things, other minor assaults on this woman's dignity. When
should she claw at his eyes or shove her ballpoint pen in his throat? When he tries to force her to kiss him?
Tries to force her to let him touch her? Tries to force her to have sex with him?" Henry took a deep breath and shrugged.
"Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I tell the women to fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air conditioning, great stereo, come on,just put on the cuffs.'
"I tell women that if that ever happens, maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music. But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to fight, and now it is too late." Henry realized he had been making eye contact with all the other people in the lecture hall, just as he did when he taught a course. Now he looked directly at the professor.
"How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?"
Totalitarian regimes are wrong, so don't let the State enslave you'. That's like saying, 'Don't get sick'. The important question is, when do you know it's going to become enslavement? When is the proper time to resist with force?"
"Please elaborate, Mr. Bowman." Henry took a deep breath.
"The end result, which we want to avoid, is the concentration camp. The gulag. The gas chamber. The Spanish Inquisition. All of those things. If you are in a death camp, no one would fault you for resisting.
But when you're being herded towards the gas chamber, naked and seventy pounds below your healthy weight, it's too late. You have no chance. On the other hand, no one would support you if you started an armed rebellion because the government posts speed limits on open roads and arrests people for speeding.
So when was it not too late, but also not too early?"
"Tell us, Mr. Bowman."
"Professor Arkes, I teach a Personal Protection class off-campus, where most of the students who sign up are women. I'm seeing some strong parallels here, so please indulge me in an analogy."
"Go ahead."
"A woman's confronted by a big, strong, stranger. She doesn't know what he's planning, and she's cautious.
Getting away from him's not possible. They're in a room and he's standing in front of the only way out, or she's in a wheelchair—whatever. Leaving the area's not an option.
"So now he starts to do things she doesn't like. He asks her for money. She can try to talk him out of it, just like we argue for lower taxes, and maybe it will work. If it doesn't, and she gets outvoted, she'll probably choose to give it to him instead of getting into a fight to the death over ten dollars. You would probably choose to pay your taxes rather than have police arrive to throw you in jail.
"Maybe this big man demands some other things, other minor assaults on this woman's dignity. When
should she claw at his eyes or shove her ballpoint pen in his throat? When he tries to force her to kiss him?
Tries to force her to let him touch her? Tries to force her to have sex with him?" Henry took a deep breath and shrugged.
"Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I tell the women to fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air conditioning, great stereo, come on,just put on the cuffs.'
"I tell women that if that ever happens, maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music. But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to fight, and now it is too late." Henry realized he had been making eye contact with all the other people in the lecture hall, just as he did when he taught a course. Now he looked directly at the professor.
"How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?"
Unless you are quite wealthy, you must earn (Taxes) you must buy (more taxes) you must take care of your health (still more taxes).
I did have the advantage of having found a three room house that rented for $720 a year for 27 years. That helped a lot. In the 1980s I tried health insurance for a few years, but the premiums kept increasing 15% a year so I went the rest of the time without. Since the dear citizens of the USA threatened me with prison when I tried to opt out of Medicare, I use that and have $653 a month SS which I was forced to pay into.
I have been on the grid all the time but have kept the heat down and no air conditioning until about 8 years ago. Now, things are much more expensive than what the cost of living increases would have been. For example, where I live now, back in those days the water and sewer were about $10 a quarter for 50,000 gal and today I pay $90 a quarter service charge plus about $10 per 1000 gal. If it wasn't for my luxuries like phone, internet, and cable with some premium service I would be on easy street. I also feed 8 cats and about 4 raccoons. Don't have a wife or kids, that helps a lot.
Local government here sucks. Just lost my second vehicle because it was declared a junk vehicle because it wasn't moved in every 10 day period even though it was insured, licensed, and ran OK. The house I own is 90 years old and getting to the point of needing some updating for code. But I am 76 and have some stents and will not last forever, so it isn't too hard to keep up. Hope the rest of you have it fairly easy.
We were savages for many thousands of years before becoming somewhat civilized. It may take a few thousand more before we can achieve true civilization.
I had never heard anything about it before and I was amazed. It is one of the things I remember most vividly about my grandfather. It was a moment when I realized he was treating me as a thinking adult instead of as a child.
The Bonus Army massacre by Gen. McArthur, Eisenhower, and Patton should be taught to everyone, but today almost no one knows it happened. Everyone who lived then is gone and the fedgov propaganda makes it almost impossible to believe those murderous actions of 3 WW2 heroes and a former president against innocent American civilians.
As I mentioned, the real story has been modified to make it appear that the WWI soldiers were at fault, but they were peaceful.
The House voted to award a reduced amount to help the soldiers, but the Senate voted against it.
Congress could easily have solved it peacefully by issuing tradeable rights, setting up a free market for the rights to the soldiers bonuses so soldiers could sell them at a discount, but instead the feds used force against the patriots who fought WWI for America and survived.
This elegantly makes my point about government changing history to blame the innocent when they are no longer here to defend themselves.
"The scientific consensus on climate change is "that climate is changing and that these changes are in large part caused by human activities,"[60] and it "is largely irreversible.
If I lived in the immediate vicinity I could go to the source and provide something definitive that they might listen to, but I do not.
Based on my reading of the climate and GW issues on wikipedia it is clear to me that they are biased in favor of the so called scientific consensus. The articles consistently downplay any who point out the weak arguments. They constantly quote the IPCC and the CRU as authorities even though those agencies have been exposed as trying to manipulate the data.
Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
Your idea reminds me of an episode of Stargate SG-1 where the team finds a cave on a planet of Vikings with strange symbols on the wall. They figure out that they are actually clues to opening the vault door. One of the clues is being able to successfully identify the first five digits of pi. I think another had to do with the weight of a neutron in relation to a proton and the last the speed of light. Upon opening the door, one was greeted with a hologram image (interactive) of an alien being. The test, of course, was to wait and see when science had improved to the point that they would be willing to accept the notion that the gods of Asgaard were in actuality an alien race known as the Asgaard.
For as long as I can remember, science has been ahead of societal evolution. It's comparable to giving a loaded revolver to a 5 year old. I guess we need to make our society smarter or our scientists dumber.
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should!" (emphasis mine)
Science is great. But it should never be considered good. It is a means. The end comes from morality itself - not science.
Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
Hmm - come to think of it, it would make a pretty good SF story.
Consumer strikes and substantial pulling in of horns (reduced spending) is a great way to cut the government off. Of course they will simply raise tax rates to compensate, but it will take awhile for them to respond.
Engaging in alternative economy is another good way. Doing work and paying for work in cash or in kind is another way.
i say that if everyone spend 10% less per year than they do now, the government would be in a world of hurt. Make that car last another year or two. Dont buy that new house. Switch from prepared foods that entail sales tax to fresh items that dont. Get a reverse osmosis water purifier and dont buy those little water bottles. Buy whatever you can online while there is still no sales tax (that eliminates amazon though).
As Hank Rearden did in AS, try to slow down the political process where possible. That means Trump this time around. Isnt perfect, and the slowdown wont last long, but a few years is significant.
I think it's wise for all of us to start researching other places to go, perhaps formulate a plan to get out in case it happens. I work with a like-minded guy who I go sailing with on occasion. Just today we were discussing the advantages of having a decent-sized sailboat as an escape pod. Sure, they can still chase you down, but...Anybody remember THX1138? Great movie - George Lucas' first movie. Near the end they stop chasing the protagonist, just calling off the chase because it exceeds the budget (not worth the effort). I realize this may sound paranoid. But, I'm just an apolitical guy who observes. It's clear to me that there are some real dark forces in play here now.
On the other hand, if Hillary wins, cronyism gets really entrenched into our government, Obamacare gets changed into universal Medicare, $15 minimum wage gets in, deficit spending will increase, and Syrian refugees and terrorists will infiltrate the us. Government controls will become more pervasive and the fight to take guns away from citizens will intensify. We should look to Venezuela as the blueprint for our future under Hillary
I couldn't find that quote in a google search, Stormi, and I had not seen it before. I agree that would be a damaging statement to Hitlery and it should be spread widely. Do you have an online source to share please?
The email itself:
http://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/e...
It isn't nearly as damning of Hitlery as was claimed, imo, but does show the attitude of at least some of her staff.
http://freedomoutpost.com/the-wikilea...
Someone called today and had read Kerry is on the wipe out all A/C rant again. He probably could not tell you what was in his unit! Had it not been for some A/C dorms, ourdaugher could not have attended college,as she is seriously allergic to grass, just someone mowing outside her window. These folks are nut, and have no intention of cutting off their own A/C. I was furious this week when I passed the union hall, sporting Hillary signs, for employees of a local industry which produces A/C units. These idiots are voting for the people who will put their jobs out of existence!
I agree, sometimes it appears very little critical thinking goes into the decision of people on who to vote for.
No a/c. Sounds like the damn yankees (Kerry et al looters) want to irrationally punish the south again.
I'd much prefer to vote for you, term.
Look at what its done to each president. They come in looking good, and leave a wreck !!
Hillary has the advantage then. She is already death served cold.
Case in point: I am old and pretty decrepit. It makes me an easy target. As a result I am expecially vigilant when I am out and about. I am sometimes armed, but only when I consider where I am going is a dangerous place. Otherwise, I am only armed with a pocket knife and a cane whose handle is brass in the shape of an eagle's head. At the parking lot of a neighborhood movieplex I was approached by a scruffy looking guy with a rather large jackknife who while ostensibly cleaning his nails, asked me for a ride as I was about to enter my mini van. Without much thought, I bopped him in the head with the beak end of my cane, jumped into the car and took off like old Jack Scratch was on my tail. I was still shaking when I got home, but a little hundred proof helped. My pants were still clean (I checked).
Rebellion is the only recourse, but that may well take many years and much privation to reach that point. The alternative to fight is flee. The problem is, where to?
The only real solution to to shrug or, since we can't get away, milk the system for all its worth and let it collapse under its own weight.
If "they" are stupid enough to.... its on them. In a way this approach reminds me of francisco d'anconia.
This veteran, this Constitutional Conservative has done more than my fair share to reverse this decline - served, commentary, radio, books. Its a lesson in futility, the people don't know who they are and they don't care what they are casually tossing away.
Slash and burn? Sit and help in sink? Shrugging, running to hide, is not an option today.
I mean "getting" they are more than willing to give, Instead of refusing and standing on your own you accept what they are offering with deliberate intent to overburden the system. In this way you are getting, receiving, what they are willing to give. Perhaps I should have used taking, but that implies you want something enough to take it.
Second line of defense is to try and influence politics to slow down the process. This time around, thats Trump.
If you cant leave, then the next line of defense is to hide in plain sight and live as much as possible under the radar. Avoid banks, use of credit cards, and other government controlled things.
Then there is plain and simple shrugging. Reduce ones lifestyle so as to require less work and therefore less interaction with the government.
The book "alongside night" is a great one concerning this subject.
With the advent of the all powerful NSA and militarized local police, rebellion is not an option until the government just falls of its own weight and stops paying its minions. Only THEN is rebelling a good option.
This process will take awhile, maybe 40-50 years,, unfortunately. Trying to slow down the degeneration of the country is a better bet for adults at this point in their lives, I think.
- Federal Reserve Act 1913
- Sixteenth Amendment (Income Taxation)
- Gun Control Act of 1968
- Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 (federal Asset Forfeiture Program)
- Crime Control Act of 1990 (gun free zones)
- the Patriot Act 2001
- creation of Fatherland Security 2002
- bankster bailout blackmail funding 2008-2009
- NSA warrantless surveillance and wiretapping 2001-2016
- federally enforced mandatory medical insurance (Obamacare 2010)
The question is, at what point will we not be able to get around what ever they want to do.
Look at the people in Cuba, they either work together to keep their cool cars goin, make money on the side, gaming the system at the same time or...take the plunge and float to Florida.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...
The ten points of the Nuremberg Code
1. Required is the voluntary, well-informed, understanding consent of the human subject in a full legal capacity.
2. The experiment should aim at positive results for society that cannot be procured in some other way.
3. It should be based on previous knowledge (like, an expectation derived from animal experiments) that justifies the experiment.
4. The experiment should be set up in a way that avoids unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injuries.
5. It should not be conducted when there is any reason to believe that it implies a risk of death or disabling injury.
6. The risks of the experiment should be in proportion to (that is, not exceed) the expected humanitarian benefits.
7. Preparations and facilities must be provided that adequately protect the subjects against the experiment’s risks.
8. The staff who conduct or take part in the experiment must be fully trained and scientifically qualified.
9. The human subjects must be free to immediately quit the experiment at any point when they feel physically or mentally unable to go on.
10. Likewise, the medical staff must stop the experiment at any point when they observe that continuation would be dangerous.
Do you propose that this may be used to avoid forced treatment?
All of the above.
My Grandpa would look at me in wonder and would say "Youll never understand how good you have it here." I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers, before and after him have said those very words to their children and grandchildren. To them, we were at a never-ending feast of prosperity, even during depressions and recessions. Compared to Europe, Africa, and Asia, we were mountain next to a mole hill. As a child I was unable to fully comprehend what America meant to him. What I'm getting around to is that we were so better off than the rest of the world that the left-wing politicians were able to get away with foisting all sorts of horrible acts on America without so much as a mutter from the populace. Only now, when the laws and regulations have become so ergregious that they are finally impinging on the consciousness of the great unwashed.
There isnt much left for them to control- now its just going to be how much control they exercise and in what way.
When they raise the minimum wage to $15, there will be layoffs, followed by 10-289 forbidding layoffs so as to control unemployment.
Nothing is off the table now.
Until that time it's our responsibility to persuade, but when that avenue is closed we have no choice but to revolt.
Buuut, that may have been time to shrug - not take up arms. (I have learned not to trust my memory anymore. At my age facts have a half-life.)
However, there must be a time when shrugging is not enough. There is no JG out there working to make it all right.
Ultimately, shrugging does nothing to guide the future.
Today, shrugging is just walking away and letting it die. There is no reason to believe it will be rebuilt along rational lines.
But realistically, only a SeaStead or SpaceHab will give us the chance to start right.
I suppose we just shrug until then, eh? Since I know I could never take up arms against America - no matter how corrupt.
There arent many prime movers today. Production is done by multinational amorphous corporations driven by PC. There just arent any prime movers to shrug and make a big difference instantly.
Rebuilding along rational lines wont happen until the cultural philosophy changes. It hasnt so far. Look to Venezuela- the people seem to be just looking for socialism to be done "better" with perhaps a new socialist leader.
Shrugging will cut the flow of money to the government, which will collapse when it cant pay its minions.
Until the cultural philosophy changes, taking up arms in a revolt would be useless. Who would you revolt against? Your own neighbors who talk freedom but support statism openly?
I have used support for Hillary as a really good litmus test way to weed out people from my life who I really dont want to be around. Talk about profiling !!! I suppose they do it to themselves, but once I find out they support hillary, they are "dead to me" (as Mr Wonderful says on Shark Tank).
Look at the history of the revolution. It started with small things, little restrictions. When nothing was said/done, more actins were taken, more restrictions and taxes. finally the final action (Lexington) and the trigger was pulled.
It has been argued by some that the trigger should have been pulled when the quartering of British troops in civilian housing was ordered without regard to personal and private property rights. That wold have been enough for me to start.
Not sure where it is now, but we are past the no worries stage and well into the prep phase. IMHO.
Hillary Clinton, if elected, will likely attempt to create a gun owner registration system, and demand that "assault rifles" be surrendered. I suspect such efforts will not get congressional approval, but she may attempt to push the envelope of what direction she can give the BATF with executive orders.
When armed government force begins to be used to force gun owners to relinquish arms or ammunition, the die is cast. This is an echo of the Lexington and Concord uprising, and full scale armed rebellion follows.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Freedom & liberty must be defended at all costs. Once lost, they cannot be regained.
Rebelling requires a very large committed group or you will be the ONE in jail. Like I tell my friends. As long as the people have their cable TV no one will rebel or come to the side of the one rebelling. As for me I'll be shrugging and let the world find it's own way.
The USA border security doesnt seem to be as strict at all, but its very bureaucratic. No prescription pills come in without an accompanying paper prescription. No bananas can be brought even in one's carry on. $300 fine for not declaring two bananas. The lady couldnt even eat them in the customs area to avoid the fine.
Australia is quite strict about keeping out older people (over 50) except as tourists (90 day visa) or as wealthy retirees (special expensive visa application.) Young people are accepted for work if they have a company sponsor who pays a fee of roughly $3000 and guarantees to pay the immigrant a salary equal or higher than the average paid to an Australian for a similar job and if there is no Australian who can do the job. There is also a fee (about $500??) paid by the immigrant for the work visa application.
There was a weekly drama on tv in Australia for about 5 years called, Sea Patrol. It regularly showed attempts to immigrate illegally. This was fiction, not a reality show. Decent writing and acting, too. Much better than US reality fare.
They have a beautiful country with an ocean to keep out the third world, and the second, and they choose to keep out the problem children of the first world, too, with the exception of Kiwis their closest allies. What is government's job? To protect the people from threats foreign and domestic. Most governments (and their people) include keeping their people employed over people from elsewhere. If you are well funded ($4 million++)and want to take your business there, you will be welcomed, unless your police report shows you have made poor choices. As in most countries I disagree with some of the Aussie government's choices, too, but they write the rules just as the assholes in the Dark Center stupidly write and disobey ours.
Trump's proposals are either bullshit lies or Trump is just too stupid to understand business.
It may appear to be preferable to escape to another country while we can, but few if any allow gun ownership adequate for personal security.
https://www.accuratepress.net/
You might find it in the library, too.
http://www.publiclibraries.com/florid...
http://www.hcplc.org/
The 2nd Amendment was put in place because the states feared a standing federal army which was "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State," doesn't have anything to do with only the militia able to hold weapons as the liberals would want you to think, it states that because a standing Militia is required for the security of a free state (the United States), the right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed". Meaning, it is the Right of the People to defend themselves from the State, or the standing Militia.
Repealing the 2nd Amendment, would in essence, be repealing the right of the people to defend itself. That would and should be the last stand.
No hypocrite (for calling Bush a traitor) would soon come along and jack the debt up even higher and get away with saying it was all Bush's fault. He would have been lynched too, and no he would not be a black guy at that point in history so let's not go there, thank you very much.
In these modern times no one did squat when Bush raised the debt by $4 trillion and all the hypocrite's $6 trillion wrought was a Tea Party rated G sequel, whose huge visitation tidied up so as not to leave a mess.
Nancy Pelosi called these "grass roots" of America "AstroTurf" and then the benign protestors drove back home. That's about all old dino got out of that.
It also seems to old dino that Americans these days will resist tyranny with force only when the progressives progress to requiring sacrifices of the first born.
I agree, dino, that there are very few serious American patriots visible today.