The God Question
As some of you know, there are a number of people in the gulch who follow a religion, but also follow the principles of Objectivism. At least that is what they say. The following is an except from Rand which clearly states her position when it comes to God. I would be interested to know how the religionists get that square peg into the trapezoid hole.
"They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth.---To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling us what it is not, but never tell us what it is. All their identifications consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say - and demand that you consider that knowledge-God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out."
There's more, lots more, but knowing this, I would be interested in finding out how one can claim Objectivism as a philosophy while holding a religion as a philosophy as well.
"They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth.---To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling us what it is not, but never tell us what it is. All their identifications consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say - and demand that you consider that knowledge-God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out."
There's more, lots more, but knowing this, I would be interested in finding out how one can claim Objectivism as a philosophy while holding a religion as a philosophy as well.
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Without the presence of any value-related metric, the word "better" is meaningless, a free-floating abstraction. The only standard you're applying to capitalism is "more", and "more" by itself does not automatically equal "better". Is being obese "better" than being skinny? You're also using an implied standard that capitalism is "better" for human beings. This automatically brings your assertion into the realm of human values, i.e. morality. And if you don't believe that capitalism is "better" for humanity, then who or what in the world is it "better" for? It has to be "better" for someone or something.
Feel free to pick metrics devoid of material things. You can establish millions of fixed metrics absent of morality and subjective content and Capitalism comes out far ahead.
I put it to you, your Christian God is a Capitalist God.
2 Thessalonians 3:9,10
9 Not that we lack this right, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 For even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “If anyone is unwilling to work, he shall not eat.”
So if you do not work, you do not eat, therefore you starve. So is God cruel for telling m=people they should starve? No, work is trading your time/skills, for monetary gain or "consideration" of some kind, i.e. value for value.
Ephesians 6: 1 - 3
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother” (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may go well with you and that you may be long-lived on the earth.”
Extremely unruly children could be stoned by their parents. So this is a point of rational self-interest.
Old Testament Isaiah 65: 20 - 22
20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed. 21 "They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.…
Private property rights and owning the product of your own labor.
Even in contract law.
Jeremiah 32: 10 - 15
10 I recorded it on a scroll, sealed it, called in witnesses, and weighed out the silver in the scales. 11 I took the purchase agreement—the sealed copy with its terms and conditions and the open copy— 12 and gave the purchase agreement to Baruch son of Neriah, son of Mahseiah. I did this in the sight of my cousin[c] Hanamel, the witnesses who were signing the purchase agreement, and all the Judeans sitting in the guard’s courtyard.
13 “I instructed Baruch in their sight, 14 ‘This is what the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: Take these scrolls—this purchase agreement with the sealed copy and this open copy—and put them in an earthen storage jar so they will last a long time. 15 For this is what the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: Houses, fields, and vineyards will again be bought in this land.’
Galatians 3:15
15 To give a human example, brothers:[a] even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
Bible recommends contracts, contract law.
I can go on and on how ALL biblical principals are capitalistic and "selfish from a "rational Self-Interest" standpoint.
"The LOVE of money is the root of all evil." is the correct translation, and in Greek love being all consuming.
But you digress to a religious debate, and I am pointing out that the metrics used to state emphatically Capitalism is better, are totally empirical as compare the rest of the world.
Choose any fixed metric, Money per capita, Cell phones , Air Conditioning, Food availability, Utility availability, Opportunity, pick one and I can apply completely metric based criteria to prove Capitalism is better without ever having to bring up morality at all. Morality which is totally subjective, as is ethics.
“Privation is good for the soul.”
“Suffering builds character.”
“Money is the root of all evil.”
Religious “vows of poverty.”
Just about anything Pope Francis says.
Matthew 19:21: “Jesus said to him, ‘If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.’”
Matthew 19:24: “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
The empirical data you cited shows that capitalism is better only if you use a moral standard that “more material prosperity = better for humanity”. When applying the opposite moral standard, which billions of people subscribe to at least in part, your empirical data shows that capitalism is worse.
If I have evidence that a fundamental premise is wrong, on which side do my objections fall? That is the fundamental dichotomy of the "God question".
Direct financial opportunity each citizen has availability to, All empirically measured against all other countries in the world.
Even if you take the empirical measure of simple HVAC units in homes to provide comfort, this can be measured empirically and has no "moral" bearing on the determination of better.
Empirically measures the poor people in this country's biggest health concern is obesity, vs. other countries where the biggest issue for poor is disease and starvation.
No morality, ethics or any measure other than empirical data. To have food and go hungry on purpose is a different thing from not even having the choice.
This is empirical not subjective or anything morality related.
Ha...I just described government!
Oh wait!...that's exactly what their doing...no matter how you spell it, where it came from, I say "Evil" is an apt description.
And actually...the concept of good and evil/ order and disorder was realized by bicameral man way before some idiot decided to organize it into a religion. If mankind did not observe that if I take your stuff, you'll take mind or at least kick my ass...therefore...maybe I shouldn't take your stuff unless I can kick Your ass. We would of never survived this long if we didn't make that observation.
Early form of Reason by caveman perhaps? Laughing...
Never mind all the perverted inclusions that attracted all those is the other paganized religions of the time.
They wanted to be Government and had no mind to advance mankind into higher states of awareness because that would have put them out of work.
And if Capital is a stand-alone, there is reason to believe that God does exist. God fractionalized thyself into parts in the form of credit which pulls the demand forward into new stand-alone parts (us) which the parts act to do work (interest) in exchange for energy in order to grow.
As for Lazi fare. I am all for free market forces driving socio economic growth. However, there is a big problem: people cheat, steal, corner markets thru force, and fail to appropriately compensate the exhaustion of capital at proper value.
I suppose the berry was EVIL and intended to maliciously kill the eater?
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