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Should parents be forced to vaccinate children before they can attend school?

Posted by richrobinson 7 years, 11 months ago to The Gulch: General
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I saw an excellent presentation last night on the risks of vaccination and health problems including autism. Most States currently require vaccinations in order to attend public schools. The argument being if parents don't vaccinate their kids then other kids are at risk. The problem appears to be the number of vaccines being given at the same time and at a very young age. The speaker made it clear that she was not anti-vaccine but wanted all parents to be able to make informed decisions. I don't have kids so I was never faced with this decision. It would seem logical to allow parents to opt out of many of these vaccines if they wanted. It is possible to get exemptions but it seems the State is making it harder and harder to do that.


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    Posted by Lucky 7 years, 11 months ago
    You may argue for or against compulsory jabs but autism is not relevant.
    There is no evidence linking autism to vaccination other than from fraud or anti-everything conspiracy theorists.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 11 months ago
      I beg to differ. At least one combination vaccine, the MMR, does have a significant correlation with increased incidence of infantile autism and childhood-onset pervasive developmental disorder. I suggest looking at the combinations. Sometimes drugs have little side effect individually but a significant and dangerous side effect in combination. Vaccines should be no different.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 11 months ago
        The case against MMR disproven: http://briandeer.com/solved/solved.htm
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        • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 11 months ago
          And I offer this contrary testimony to the effect Brian Deer is guilty of willful libel.

          http://articles.mercola.com/sites/art...

          Excerpts:

          Writing in the BMJ, research microbiologist David Lewis, of the National Whistleblowers Center, explains that he reviewed histopathological grading sheets by two of Dr. Wakefield's coauthors, pathologists Amar Dhillon and Andrew Anthony, and concluded there was no fraud committed by Dr. Wakefield:

          "As a research microbiologist involved with the collection and examination of colonic biopsy samples, I do not believe that Dr. Wakefield intentionally misinterpreted the grading sheets as evidence of "non-specific colitis." Dhillon indicated "non-specific" in a box associated, in some cases, with other forms of colitis. In addition, if Anthony's grading sheets are similar to ones he completed for the Lancet article, they suggest that he diagnosed "colitis" in a number of the children."

          In a press release, Lewis continued:

          "The grading sheets and other evidence in Wakefield's files clearly show that it is unreasonable to conclude, based on a comparison of the histological records, that Andrew Wakefield 'faked' a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

          Now that these records have seen the light of day, it is time for others to stop using them for this purpose as well. False allegations of research misconduct can destroy the careers of even the most accomplished and reputable scientists overnight. It may take years for them to prove their innocence; and even then the damages are often irreparable. In cases where mistakes are made, every effort should be taken to fully restore the reputations and careers of scientists who are falsely accused of research misconduct."

          http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/201...

          You oughtn't to be so quick, in any event, to defend a coercive practice against individual parents.
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 11 months ago
            I have met w Wakefield, and many others. He is no fraud. He is the real deal. The media has lied about him. Believe who you want. But, understand that the BS story is a diversion from the facts. Did you take the bait?...
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            • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 11 months ago
              Well, I certainly did not, though our fellow interlocutor might have. I ask myself: what did Andrew Wakefield gain, or hope to gain, by falsifying data? What are the elements of crime? Motive, opportunity, and means. One can argue opportunity and means, though personally I find that a stretch. But motive? Does anyone here really think "to make a name for himself" would be motive enough to try to perpetrate such an elaborate fraud?

              But the motive of Brian Deer, or perhaps of a pharmaceutical multinational who might have paid Brian Deer off, is evident and considerable. The drug companies have a problem. Vaccines have outlived their usefulness. Diphtheria has all but disappeared. Pertussis, you can live with. Tetanus you can treat or head off if someone gets a nasty wound. But we now see one disease after another, that a few powerful companies--the Orren Boyles of health care--have convinced the state that people "need" "protection" against.

              Now along comes a doctor like Andrew Wakefield, who develops solid evidence that the MMR vaccine is a combination more dangerous than any have appreciated. Even if "correlation does not equate to causation," I would ask any doubters whether they can explain the correlation any other way. Well, evidently they can't. Because they take great pains to deny the correlation.

              So to those people, I say: 'Fess up!
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    • Posted by khalling 7 years, 11 months ago
      Dale's brother is a microbiologist/geneticist/pathologist running his own genetics lab at Mayo. He has looked extensively into the studies and concurs that there is no proven link with the MMR vaccine and autism. One of the reasons a correlation was even drawn, has to do with when autism tends to present symptoms-roughly 2-3 years of age. This is during the time MMR series are administered to children.
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 11 months ago
        I'd be curious to see if he says there's no correlation. It would be an interesting conversation, certainly.
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        • Posted by khalling 7 years, 11 months ago
          no proven link. I think studies should continue using correlation as a hypothesis. but as I said before, autism before the vaccine was administered to children, still presented in the same age time frames.
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 11 months ago
            ...But in nowhere near the quantity we are seeing now. 1980 to today I have calculated a 13,000% increase in the incidences of autism. What has changed since 1980? There's a good chance the link will be in there. And, a few different things have changed - vaccines being just one of them.

            This is a mystery that's challenge is eclipsed only by emotion of those on both sides. I came to it looking only at data, taking hair and blood samples, etc. It was very enlightening, and resulted in information the mainstream media STILL refuses to report a decade later. Very, very interesting...
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 10 months ago
            Yet, with a 13,000% increase since the inclusion of boosters in the childhood schedule. I know. I ran the numbers from the CDC data.
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            • Posted by khalling 7 years, 10 months ago
              I know that you are an expert on this. and I think about your family often.
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              • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 10 months ago
                Thank you.

                Nothing could have made me a stronger Objectivist. Soon after I presented data to the NIH at a hearing where there were hired goons to assault people (I'm not kidding - that's a hell of a story) I was laying on my living room floor reading Atlas Shrugged for the first time. I came across this, "In times like these, when their fat little comforts are threatened, you can be sure that science is the first thing men will sacrifice." I couldn't sleep that night.

                Children is the second thing they will sacrifice...
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          • Posted by Kittyhawk 7 years, 11 months ago
            I think one of the huge problems with the studies that have been done on vaccine safety is that true placebos (saline injections) aren't used for comparison in the trials. Very often, the vaccine is compared to another vaccine or is compared to an injection of all of the adjuvants (ingredients selected because they provoke an immune reaction) and potential toxins in the vaccine, minus just the bacteria or virus. If some of the adjuvants such as aluminum or thimerosol, or the many additional ingredients (such as eggs, peanut butter, foreign DNA) are the cause of health problems, this fact will be hidden when a true placebo is not used for the control group.

            In addition, only perfectly healthy children are allowed into vaccine trials, while the vaccines go on to be administered to children with all kinds of mild and serious, known and unknown, health problems. The vaccine trials represent the perfect case, rather than the reality of what the vaccines will do once given to the population at large.

            It's almost as if those designing the trials do not want to know the truth about vaccine safety and side effects. Hmmmm....

            If you look at the statistics for infant mortality rates regressed against the number of vaccine doses in various countries, there is a very clear pattern that requiring more vaccines leads to higher mortality rates. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic... The Pourcyrous Study cited in this article provides strong evidence of the harm these vaccines are doing to infants: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/201... Here is some more persuasive evidence that vaccines certainly do cause harm, including autism: http://www.anh-usa.org/attack-on-vacc...

            Do vaccines cause "autism"? Maybe not in all cases, but I think it's very clear that some type of severe harm is being caused to some percentage of our children, and that we need more studies which are genuinely designed to clarify what types of harm are being caused, to which individuals, and why. Tens of thousands of parents publicly say that their normal child regressed into a state of autism following vaccination. We can ignore all of their statements as anecdotal evidence, but what is their motive to lie?
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      The speaker was not anti-vaccine but said that little or no testing has been done concerning the health affects of giving multiple vaccines at the same time. My take away from last night is that parents should be allowed more control over if their kids get vaccinated and how quickly.
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 11 months ago
        There actually are no studies of the current CDC childhood schedule. There wasn't one even when it was half the size it is now. By the time a baby reaches two years old the quantity is around 36 vaccinations. This schedule simply hasn't been tested. No double-blind studies. I find that pretty amazing.

        The suspect vaccine MMR did have one CDC study done about 14 years ago. The head researcher on that study, William Thompson, came out about 20 months ago and admitted that he and colleagues committed fraud and that the data actually indicated an increase in autism with the MMR when administered before a certain age. If memory serves me right it's before the age of 36 months. I've heard the recording of him confessing, met and spoke with the man he confessed to, and have looked at the tables of data. Thompson said, "I feel great shame" each time he sees a family with an autistic child. Thompson and his colleagues actually sat in a room and tossed data into a trash can. LOL!!!! Now, that's a story worth covering.

        This isn't anything I discovered. It's pretty mainstream info now. It's not widely covered by news shows who rely on pharma ads (watch the evening news lately?).
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        • Posted by Flootus5 7 years, 11 months ago
          Wow, I had not thought of that possibility of the scheduling of so many vaccines would be analogous to drug interactions. It really is very similar.

          The doctors never seem to acknowledge that drug interactions can be serious, basically creating a cocktail mix in your system. This so common amongst the elderly. With infants multiple, multiple vaccinations at once with all their bizarre ingredients could be really serious.
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 10 months ago
            Known, expected pharmaceutical reactions kill about 110,000 in America each year. This is, literally, doctors giving medicines to patients knowing that some will die from the medication. I think, last time I looked, it was 108,000 - but that was about four years ago.

            With vaccines they don't even ask if there have ever been any bad reactions. Yet, we now know that if a mother has the MTHFR genetic disorder (can only be found with a test) and that mother's child gets the MMR - KABLOOEY! Severe autism. Why? We don't know yet. We just know it happens.

            But...these things I talk about...they're just science. And, America and Americans love religion. Just have faith. Believe what you're told. Watch tv. Don't read any books, or anything. You can trust the government... Even if you're the most hard-core right-winger. Trust the government on this one thing.
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            • Posted by Flootus5 7 years, 10 months ago
              Your input to this topic has been invaluable. The cocktail mix of vaccines would be analogous with the drug interactions. I can attest to the latter.

              35 years ago, I had a back injury that laid me up big time. Couldn't walk. The nerve pain was horrendous. The primary physician said we'll get to the bottom of this. In the meantime I'll prescribe you tylenol with codeine and an anti-inflammatory medicine. I asked him specifically if they will mix OK. Of course they will, this is a common combination.

              Wrong! Within a day, not only was the nerve pain untouched, but now the fluid retention was horrible. My head felt like a blimp and the nausea was awful. I quit taking them and all that went away.

              Long story short, after seven specialists later, including a rheumatoid arthritic guy, an orthopedic guy, foot orthotics, you name it. None of it helped. I called the primary guy a final time and asked what's next? "uhh, I think you should try a different modality". I asked him what that meant. "See a psychiatrist". I hung up. See a shrink, right.

              Months wasted. And then on a day I was stretching my arms way out in front, and then way back, and then out in front and there was this huge pop between my shoulder blades and I could walk. I went on a 4 mile walk that afternoon, just going "Holy shit, holy shit" A miracle.

              That started a long history of total distrust in mainstream medicine and a preference for homeopathic alternative solutions.
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              • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 10 months ago
                Amazing story. Thanks for sharing. Many, many doctors really have no clue what they're doing. They are incentivized to just prescribe meds, though. Many years ago when I suffered a very bad leg injury I had a doctor first tell me that my acl was fine, then prescribe me a massive bottle of horse pill vicodin. I took them like M&Ms and stopped cold-turkey eventually. That was an educational experience. Not one warning from the doctor, either. So, when I hear that people like Rush Limbaugh get hooked on opiates I just go, "Hell yeah. Sure!" Oh...and my acl was completely gone. I was disabled for 25 years from that, needing a brace. A brilliant surgeon fixed me a couple years ago and it's like a have a new lease on life! There are some great doctors. But, there are a lot of hacks. A lot...
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        • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
          That's incredible. As in any decision information is the key. If information is being withheld or covered up there is a reason.
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 11 months ago
            No studies of the current schedule. None. Yes. Incredible. These studies need to be done...by those not attached to the manufacturers of vaccines, funded by non-pharma money. Until that happens nobody will ever get away with forcing me to consume any pharmaceutical - ever.
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        • Posted by khalling 7 years, 11 months ago
          I'd like to see a link to this. Question. Why could it not be a coincidence that MMR is administered during the time autism presents itself in children? after all, autism existed before MMR vaccines and presented itself during the same time frames. For instance, a genetic defect that presents when the brain develops to a certain point or latent genetic defect that triggers if the child get a certain virus? there are many scenarios
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 10 months ago
            There has been a substantial increase in the number of autism cases with the inclusion of the EARLY MMR and with the inclusion of boosters in the CDC childhood schedule.

            This point is kind of like saying, "There were deaths due to bullets before war." Yes, but war sure as heck doesn't help. The body reacts. Autism, it appears, is an illness that requires a trigger...an insult.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 10 months ago
      Lucky, A young childs development, their is no greater concern to a parent. The instinct to save or protect your offspring overrides a typical risk reward decision.
      No one knows what causes autism and even a hint that vaccines could be damaging gives many parents pause and anxiety.

      I am disappointed in your " anti- everything conspiracy theorists" comment.
      Labeling is a very effective tool used by the collectivist to stifle discussions and form lemming type compliance. For example denier , bigot , racist , often used by the left to name call and degrade an opposing position instead of using reasoning and evaluating differing opinions.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 11 months ago
    First, as an Objectivist, I am against the government forcing any action on its citizens unless it falls under actionable criminality. It is incumbent upon each individual parent to decide about vaccinations. First, find out what they are comprised of. Then check out their side effects both singly and in combination. Then make your decision accordingly. I know you're busy. I know it is a bother. But that's what you signed up for when you opted for parenthood.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      Very true Herb. The problem is that few if any studies have been done on mixing these vaccines. I think most people would agree that more testing needs to be done and more information should be readily available.
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      • Posted by plusaf 7 years, 11 months ago
        Rich... what kind of testing do you think would prove any hypothesis, especially if it isn't "long term Enough" and doesn't directly put human kids at risk?
        Mice? Never heard of autistic mice, but maybe the Jackson Lab can breed some...
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 11 months ago
    Yes. If other children are not vaccinated the remaining children and peoples are in forced servitude. Of course public education is a socialist policy, but one I can support with certain features.

    Not vaccinating is a foolish freedom. Very much like supporting ignorance. Sure you are allowed to be ignorant, but why do we need more of the earth is flat or dinasaura roamed with people? If you want this freedom, go abide separately.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      One thing i am noticing is that vaccination seems to be an all or nothing proposition. The volume of vaccines given at a young age has increased dramatically over the years. I would like to see a system where informed parents could either opt out of some or at the very least spread out the time between injections.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 11 months ago
        I agree a unilateral executive branch should not make this decision. Typically the objective is to wipe out certain diseases, but a well meaning zealot could add stomach flu et al to the list without thinking it through. Since thus is not an educational issue, but much broader, it needs more review and approval than an administrator or little board.
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        • Posted by khalling 7 years, 11 months ago
          I think this is a tough call. It could be handled in civil court, I suppose. But with measles on the rise again (almost completely eradicated during my lifetime) as well as tuberculosis (we no longer vaccinate for that or polio) think about the risk to young children and babies. OTOH, vaccinating against chicken pox means a higher likelihood of Shingles in later life. A much more dibilitating condition lasting for months with high recurrance.
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  • Posted by ChuckyBob 7 years, 11 months ago
    Vaccinations are not 100% effective. So, even though I may get my child vaccinated, that does not guarantee that they will not contract a disease if they are exposed. So, being libertarian minded, I don't care if you do, or don't vaccinate your child, just don't expose my child to them, keep them home, home school them, or send them to a private school for unvaccinated children. My kids had all their shots and except for being conservatives with above average intelligence, with a touch of ADD, they are all completely normal.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 7 years, 11 months ago
    I have read the argument that if someone else's
    child hasn't been vaccinated, you should not com-
    plain; if you think that child may be carrying the
    disease, you are the one who should have gotten
    yours vaccinated. The counter-argument to that
    seems to be that a child who has not been vac-
    cinated, and yet is not obviously contagious
    could be going around carrying the germs, but
    not yet showing any symptoms.--But then,
    still, if yours is vaccinated, he should not
    get infected. I admit that I don't yet have the
    whole think figured out.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 7 years, 11 months ago
    isn't the problem public schools themselves? . the control
    of our lives exerted by state -- or State -- fascism in schools
    is unwise and disgusting, IMHO. . of course, parents
    should not be controlled by the state in this way. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 7 years, 11 months ago
    I feel that vaccination is in the best interest of both the child and society. (With the possible exception of the Chicken Pox shot)

    Though at the same time I would rather allow for the freedom to choose whether or not to be vaccinated.

    I can see that as a whole it is better to vaccinate. Ex. Small Pox has been eradicated. Yes, governments still maintain samples for warfare reasons and that is something that I don't want to discuss. But Instances of Small Pox are no longer cropping up. This is due to the vaccination programs.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 7 years, 11 months ago
    To simply answer the question: yes if there is evidence that not vaccinating poses a danger to others. The fact that schools should not be public or the argument that parents should have control over vaccinating their children are not relevant here.
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  • Posted by Donald-Brian-Lehoux 7 years, 11 months ago
    Mandatory vaccinations is a good reason for home schooling. In case Trump changes his mind or he is screwed out of the nomination. Vote veteran someone that puts America B4 any party, we come from all backgrounds. Divide and conquer is what they do. End double standard,DC politician on Obamacare,SS mrpresident2016.com
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  • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 11 months ago
    No. The argument assumes (a) perfect safety of vaccines, and (b) certain risk of transmission without vaccines, not to mention certain, irremediable vulnerability on the part of others. My reply: not necessarily. The school would better serve its pupils with a lunch and nutrition-advice program designed to boost a child's natural immunity so that it would be "up to the challenge." And it is up to school administrators to know that alternatives to treating people as if they were cattle (with all this loose talk in the medical profession about "herd immunity" as applied to human beings) do exist.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      That was another point made that advancements in hygiene and nutrition have reduced the need for some of these vaccines. I just wish better information was readily available.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 11 months ago
        Search for the National Vaccine Information Center. And the site Joseph R. Mercola, D.O., keeps.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
          I will. I used to read some articles by Dr. Mercola before. He is a good resource.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 11 months ago
            Yes, he is. But he's not my only resource. He has a few blind spots, too, you know. (Like whether and how you might be able to head off "arthritis" at the pass by substituting garbanzo beans and other protein-rich vegetable products for meat, fish and poultry.) So I go to other advisers, and weigh the evidence, according to the scientific training I have had.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 11 months ago
    Today's vaccines are ineffectual...Harvard students that were vaccinated for mumps came down with mumps...not to mention the mercury.

    If a parent wanted to take the chance then the best protocol would be to space these poison vaccines out over a long period of time; (so the immune system is not compromised to badly). Make this known before you give birth, get something signed in blood and sworn to on video. There are more stupid sheeple in this world than you can imagine. I see in my daily work life; nurses and doctors are the dumbest among them...they have no clue and no inclination to check facts or ask questions.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      In the 1960's we received a total of 3 injections. In the 1980's it increased to 11. Today there a total of 55 injections. Why not allow parents to choose the 3, 11 or current 55 injections. It seems impossible to get a straight answer on the necessity of all these injections.
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  • Posted by jrbirdman 7 years, 11 months ago
    Should the question be, "Should parents be forced to vaccinate their children before attending school or should parents be forced in sending their children into a school with unvaccinated children?" Does your right to not vaccinate your kids supercede my right to send my kids to school in what I consider to be a safe environment? One's rights only goes as far as it may or may not infringe on the rights and safety of others. Maybe the real decision here is public, private, or home-schooled?
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    • Posted by 7 years, 11 months ago
      A bill currently being considered in Pennsylvania would require vaccinations for all school age children regardless of Public, Private or home schooling. Certain vaccines do seem necessary for safety but it seems impossible to question weather or not they are all necessary. This is a real hot button issue.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 10 months ago
    I think that if somebody truly believes that vaccines are both completely safe and completely effective then they should be able to take all the vaccines they want and shut their pie hole about other people's vaccines. Logically, this has always made sense to me. If it's safe...if it's effective, then what in the hell are you worried about? Yeah, "Oh...if other people get sick then we all have to pay..." Once again, socialism creeping into the discussion. This "for the betterment of others" is a mental disorder.

    Objectivism works. Science works. These two have never let me down. And, in this subject I have been to the belly of the beast. There are real problems here that you aren't being told. Want to see a documentary about the CDC fraud? Go see the new movie, Vaxxed. By the way, it's being censored in many cities so good luck finding it.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 7 years, 11 months ago
    If not vaccinating puts other kids and or their parents at risk then the other parents have the right to not allow unvaccinated children in.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 10 months ago
      and the parents have a right to not place their child in public schools. does The power of the school district reach beyond the edge of the playground?
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