Should Women Have to Sign up for the Draft?

Posted by awebb 8 years, 1 month ago to Politics
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I recently stumbled across this article, Making Women Sign Up for the Draft Would be the Height of Stupidity: http://townhall.com/columnists/johnha...

Here are a few quotes:

"Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush and Chris Christie all blundered right into her trap and agreed that we should take the radical step of forcing young women to sign up for a potential draft."

"... while we should certainly appreciate women who serve our country, it doesn’t change the fact that the more women you put into combat, the worse our military will perform."

"Have we gotten so mired in this faux feminism,” “You go, girl” culture that we can’t even admit that men are generally much better suited to kill other men than women?"

"However, if we ever stoop to drafting women and forcing them to fight our battles, it would be one of the most foolish and shameful moments in our nation’s history."

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My opinion:

Frankly, I thought this article was condescending. I don't understand why it is radical to ask women to take the same risks as men.

This article is saying "It is okay to ask (or force) men to kill other men and potentially sacrifice their own lives but it is not okay to ask the same of women".

If a woman isn't physically equipped to fill a role, don't put her in that role... but the same can be said for men. The military wouldn't make a person that is 5'2 and 120 pounds a SEAL regardless of gender.

The fact that women are typically smaller and lighter than men doesn't automatically preclude them from in some way serving their country. Draft women for other roles or at least evaluate women to see if they are equipped to serve in combat positions.

I believe in equality. Not superiority. That means I want to be treated just as my male counterpart is. Not better. Not worse.

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I would love to know what other Gulchers think of this issue and the article.


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  • 13
    Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
    Women do some things better than men, and women do some things worse than men... in general.
    But people shouldn't be valued, in general, they should be valued for their individual abilities.
    I would make a lousy soldier, in general, but I might contribute greatly in other ways, if I did so voluntarily.
    Let anyone serve who is qualified to perform the job, and who has the ability to understand what they are volunteering to do.
    (Yes, they should also be provided the truthful data to make the decision.)
    No draft of anyone. No one sent to die under threat.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 1 month ago
      Should women be drafted? No--and that includes men.
      Should women join the armed services? Yes, and they should be assigned whatever they can prove they can handle.
      And that goes for guys.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 1 month ago
      There is so much variation in "women" and "men" that its hard to generalize that women in general are better for a given task would be more effective than men.
      There should just be acceptance criteria for the job at hand, and let the chips fall as they may.

      As to military slavery, I think its immoral to have a draft, period. Not that I would be great as a foot soldier at my age, I can still pull a trigger or fly a drone if it came down to protecting myself or my family, and I wouldnt have a problem doing those things. If defense required the services of a big muscled young person, I would just have to find one and hire him.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
        Interesting point: Drone warfare makes age and physical condition irrelevant to presence in combat. As long as you have good hand-eye and a knack for flying drones you can be on the front lines.

        Jan
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        • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
          'Til you run out of drones. ;)

          China's military strategy is all about overwhelming brute force. Unless those drones are dropping nukes, it's pretty hard to stop an army of their size short of a similar overwhelming brute force or nukes. (http://www.globalfirepower.com/countr...)

          And we should also mention Iran's recent hack of a drone to take it over mid-flight.

          To me, drones are an interesting idea for use in surgical strikes against unsophisticated enemies. Beyond that ...
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          • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
            That is an interesting site...I could not help but poke around on it a bit.

            The point I was making is that the conventional standards for 'fit to serve in combat' are no longer applicable. You can have people in their 60's+ flying drones (thus removing the age limitation); you can have women in combat (thus removing the gender limitation). Having someone 'willing to fight' is now the major criterion. While we still need physical people on the ground, more than just women have been excluded from combat - and this is no longer the case.

            Thank you for the site!

            Jan
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            • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
              Oh I agree with you about the criterion. I watched a video of some Army drone operators - one guy, one gal - actually prosecute a drone attack on Islamic fundamentalists. They watched it all from the drone's camera.

              Regarding women serving in the military: it reminds me of a sci-fi book I read where some humans crash land on an alien planet and have to fight their way through jungle and hostiles to a spaceport for extraction. The hostiles are lizard-types but with gender-reversal - it's the "females" who do all the fighting. And because of the superior firepower of the human marines, they decimate the population of females and push the entire species to the brink of extinction.
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              • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
                Well, humankind went through a genetic keyhole that indicates that at one point there were only about 6K-30K of our species all totalled. This is probably why our culture is so conservative about keeping women alive. But we have >7B humans alive right now, so it is time to overturn the tables and let the individual woman's preferences matter more than the species' needs.

                Jan
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                • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
                  I'd like to just keep everyone alive.
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                  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
                    Yeah, but if I really wanted to go onto the battlefield and fight for what I believed in you would not be advised to step in front of me and try to keep me 'safe'.

                    Jan
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                    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
                      If you have the guts and guns to do it, I would get out of the way. But you're the rare one.

                      I think it takes a skill set more commonly found in men to wage war. The idea of equality (for draft purposes) is based on the notion that either sex is equally capable - mentally, physically, and emotionally - to handle war. I don't believe that to be the case. With the Israelis, as every one of their citizens who turns 18 has to serve time in the military, but you don't see many women who choose to stay there, and they aren't typically part of the reserves.
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 1 month ago
          opens up a new field for all persons, women/men/gays/straights/all races, etc. interesting. gamers would make good soldiers too if they were controlling robots
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          • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
            Mostly, who it opens up the field for is 'people over 60'. Drone pilots should be open to people of all ages, and it would be kinda neat to see the military having to deal with bright and capable octogenarians who have had a lifetime of experience sorting out BS from reality...

            Jan
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  • 11
    Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 1 month ago
    No draft of any one, not even for "national service" involuntary servitude is slavery.

    If you don't pay attention to this and have a silly draft registration then all sexes should sign up for it -- however many sexes you recognize. If you do have a draft assign duties as appropriate.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 1 month ago
      I could write a screenplay called "Two Years A Slave."
      But much more time is involved in sweating out a summons for a war in Vietnam that I did not believe was worth any American dying for.
      As for the summons, Nixon provided a photo of his smiling face on a letter that began, "Congratulations! You have been inducted into the Armed Services."
      The honorable discharge DOES look good on a resume, though.
      It added 5 points to a test I had to pass to go to the Alabama DOC Academy in Selma for my career job.
      Proof of military service was required by Wackenhut when I got into a money pinch after I retired. I'm fully retired now.
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  • Posted by WilliamRThomas 8 years, 1 month ago
    Nobody should have to sign up for the draft.

    But if men must, then women must.

    Drafting only men is sexism and violates equal protection of the law.

    But again, the draft itself is a form of slavery. It is grossly unjust to threaten someone with prison or death to send them where they run a high risk of being killed. It's gross violation of the rights to life and liberty.
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 1 month ago
    I am offended by this article. It gives the impression that men are natural killers who want to out and kill each other while women are naturally sweet and kind.

    While teenage boys who are learning to deal with conflicts often do go to violence as an answer, and teenage girls often go to backstabbing and rumor mongering both revert to force if not taught to be mindfully better than the method of force in there thinking.

    Now those are generalizations and there will be those outside of them. In the end non of it should matter because there should be no draft ever. If the cause is just and people see it as valuable you will have enough who will fight by there own agency. If not you wont get people to join up. That is how it should work and gender does not matter, so long as the requirements for a job are met.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 1 month ago
      I really dont know if one can make the generalizations about men and women. I dont have the experience to really make those judgments- which is why I would hire someone who had experience with the workings of military engagements and let them hire the soldiers
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
      The observation that boys and men are more aggressive does not mean they are natural killers. This is one of the many aspects of 'mens liberation' that I agree with. Boys and men should be able to enjoy being competitive and aggressive without having that 'killer' label tied to them. Boys and men who do not feel that sense of competitiveness should be able to go "meh" and wander off in search of a computer or a book.

      Women are learning that we 'may' be more assertive and aggressive as we are allowed to earn our own living and do not have to create our lives around finding a male solar breadwinner to revolve around. On the other hand, I would have made an excellent front line soldier - I personally have all the instincts for it - but that option was not permitted. That was stupid of the military.

      Jan
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      • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 1 month ago
        I think I needed a /Sarcasm there. I am not really offended by the article. The only thing I see in it is we should not have a draft anyway.

        Bottom line to me:

        1) To big a deal is made out of gender. Have requirements for a job, and then anyone who meets the requirements can do the job, but no different requirements based on gender or race or anything else. Just whatever the requirements are, the same for everyone.

        2) No Draft. Ever, not needed if the cause is just and a Draft just says we are the property of the government anyway which we are not.
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  • Posted by archerb55 8 years, 1 month ago
    if women are going to serve in combat roles, then, yes they should be included in the draft.... they want to lower the standards to allow women to qualify for special forces so why not draft em.... we are all equal in the eyes of government.... haha
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  • Posted by brkssb 8 years, 1 month ago
    "Thank you for your service." Not much more to go to "Thank you for your indentured servitude." And from there, "Thank you for your slavery." As a military retiree, I still react oddly to "Thanks for your service".

    The military would take a person 5'2" and 120 pounds and make that person into a tunnel rat, and in Vietnam, that is exactly what happened.

    But "Abaco" got it right, nobody should. Or, nobody must.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 1 month ago
    I am against a military draft per se, as it violates
    individual rights, whether for men, women, or both.
    Also, women, not being as physically strong as men, would not do as well in combat. And if you
    have more women going in to be put into other
    capacities, thus freeing up more men for com-
    bat, the men will naturally resent it, as putting
    less value on their lives than on the lives of
    women.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 1 month ago
    Once the fight arrives at our shores...the draft would become redundant, anyway.

    Those who refuse to wield the sword can still die upon one (or something like that).
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
      I don't know about your definitions but I'm satisfied that has already occured. Our side lost.
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      • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 1 month ago
        Not unless tyrannical governments have started allowing their subjects to have arms and ammunition. I still have all of mine (minus the one I sold, today, in absolute violation of Washington's I-594).
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
          Your weapons weren't of much use Dec 31st when the President enlarged the the suspension of the Bill of Rights nor I suspect was your awareness level working that evening nor any of those in the previous instances.

          Whoopie doo you godda gun. So what? Did you use it? No. Did you do anything? I don't know. If you did it wasn't enough. since the bill was containing the newest add on restrictions and changes was passed 85% in Congress .....

          Our side lost... while the public did nothing, didn't have to bury their heads in the sand. Their heads have been buried for over a decade.
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          • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 1 month ago
            History clearly indicates that societies must be disarmed before they can be ruled.

            As long as the American people are able to exercise their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights, they will remain a "free" people...excepting, of course, the possibility of anarchy.

            If our government were so sure of it's control over us...they wouldn't constantly be trying to "take" our guns. Trust me...they still fear us (though, they may not realize just how much).
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
              That's narrowing it down to the bare unacceptable bones if ever was. Sounds like your bugler sounded full retreat. So long as.....and not excepting the the possiblity of a single party dictatorship. You really are working for the other side aren't you. IT doesn't deserve a question mark. None is needed.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 1 month ago
    Even voluntary military service can be a form of indentured servitude. After the end of the Vietnam conflict, when I had served 8 years as an Air Force officer, I decided I would leave the service, and had several job offers. Even though many around me were losing their positions from the ongoing reduction in force, I was informed that because I was in a critical job classification, I could not leave the service. The justification at the time was that as a Reserve officer, I served "at the pleasure of the President," and without a release from the White House I was obligated to stay.

    The strange adventure continued, as I was thwarted at every attempt to attend professional officer schools, which should have spelled the end of my career, since without those I shouldn't have been promotable to Major. As I prepared to end my service at 12 years, I was suddenly given a regular commission and promoted to Major, again because I was a "critical resource." I was obligated to stay to 20, but departed as a Lt Col before they could find another reason to keep me.

    There's a lesson in that story about volunteering, and how it can put your fate in the hands of bureaucrats.
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  • Posted by jabuttrick 8 years, 1 month ago
    Of course the draft is involuntary servitude and violates the rights of all who fall under it throughout all of history regardless of gender. Note that not a single Republican (the supposed champions of limited government) called for an end to the shameful draft during the recent debate where this question was raised. Please don't waste your vote supporting any of those would be slave masters.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 1 month ago
    It should be a moot point, since military conscription is just a fancy word for slavery. The military should be voluntary and only voluntary, allowing persons of either gender, providing they meet mental and physical qualifications to enter as they would any other job.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
      the whole thing is riddled with oxymoronic thinking. One doesn't sign up for as in volunteering much less volunteer one registers and the act of registering is not voluntary. Once taken they are required to take and sign the oath. the taking or reciting of the oath is not as important as the signing. it to is supposed to be voluntary but it' required as in no choice without facing punishment. ergo it isn't voluntary including the signing sum there fore it's not voluntary but coerced. Same oath the true volunteers are required to take thus negating the act of volunteering. Whole thing is meaningless out side some legalistic mumbo jumbo. False on it's face.
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  • Posted by brando79az 8 years, 1 month ago
    Retired U.S. military, Army Secretary John McHugh once said. "If your objective is true and pure equality then you have to look at all aspects."

    http://www.military.com/daily-news/20...

    Now, should their be a draft? I say "no" because we have the volunteer military but if there is a draft, and women are equal, "hell yes they should be in the draft!" Body-size aside, men can stay in the U.S. and conduct themselves just as women can. Awebb's comparison of women to small men is spot-on because young, small, and wimpy men with families were drafted just the same as larger, stronger, and single males.
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 1 month ago
    they need more people in uniform and if the male population is declining what is left?
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
      When I am on a shuttle bus to/from the airport, I find that I am often the one to stand up and give my seat to a pregnant woman or someone walking with a cane. If there are so few gentlemen left, then we ladies have to step in.

      Jan, "Lady" does not = "weak"
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  • Posted by pdohara 8 years, 1 month ago
    We have decided women can serve in combat roles. Therefore they should be subject to exactly the same requirements as men, including registering for the draft. Having said that I am against the idea of mandated service as it is currently presented. If we want to make the argument that part of the "cost" of being a member of our society is federal service, I would be open to looking at that. In that case everyone would be required to serve. The current system is obviously rigged.
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  • Posted by Riftsrunner 8 years, 1 month ago
    Selective service registration is a form of oppression by the government. When approximately half the population is being oppressed, you don't solve it by oppressing the other half. You abolish the oppression all together.

    Those crying that without the pool of possible draftees being readily available, must have been under a rock when 9/11 happened. Within days after the attack there were huge numbers of volenteers signing up for military service and I have no doubt if needed there would be similar people coming forward in the future if need be. Also, because of the advancements that have been made to our military infrastructure, I would also daresay that the numbers needed would be much less in the future due to the our capabilities (there will always be a need for infantry for on the ground needs, but fewer would be needed to be put into harms way when we have precision armaments to make better surgical strikes).
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 1 month ago
    Our culture has, until recently, valued women and children and I think that tradition is a valid and heroic one, But...no one should be forced nor required to serve in any "Just cause" or to serve in readiness for the protection of our country against barbarians and the mentally ill kakistocracies in the world.
    It should always be a choice.
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  • Posted by cksawyer 8 years, 1 month ago
    Hell no, they should not be made to register for conscription!!

    That doesn't mean that they should be kept from serving voluntarily in combat roles, should they be qualified to do so, BUT....

    Just because some citizens are getting treated as slaves, doesn't justify that even more should be enslaved. The concept of equality of treatment or fairness doesn't not apply to criminal violation of individual rights.

    Anyone who can avoid being involved in draft registration by any means whatsoever, including lying or running away (just as similar actions are justified in the face of a mugger on the streets) is justified in doing so, and I happy for them to have done so.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 1 month ago
    Something just dawned on me. Can you imagine if a candidate answered like I did? If a candidate said we should avoid a draft the people would lose their minds. The Vietnam veterans would flip out. The leftists would flip out. The neocons would flip out. Fox News would flip out. MSNBC would flip out. My dad would flip out. Most of my neighbors would flip out.

    LOL

    Then, there are these people who think that every kid should be forced to serve a term "like in Isreal". Meanwhile, my neighbor's daughter couldn't wait to get out of the Army because she was continually sexually harassed in there. Yeah...molest my daughter Uncle Sam... The addled masses have this dreamy image of America - that everybody's pure and you can just hand your kids over to the government.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
      If you want a really confused and easily moldable population, force all the young, inexperienced and impressionable into military service to fight a fabricated "war." You mustn't leave out the women because they are very good at protesting when they see their brothers, husbands, and boyfriends come back in body bags.
      Don't forget to take away all the guns, too. Wouldn't want a grey snowbird uprising.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 1 month ago
    I thought Bush, Rubio and Christie made a huge mistake answering the question. They should have said we don't have a draft and we won't have a draft if I am President. By answering the question they are now on record talking about what they would do if there was a draft.
    I did not serve in the military but I would have to think I would feel more protective of a female soldier than a male soldier. It would probably cause me to make mistakes and take chances I otherwise probably wouldn't take. Not trying to be insulting it's just the way I think.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
      We do have a draft. All men over 18 must register for selective service. It is just that the "draft" part of the draft is not active because we have enough volunteers. But we do have mandatory registration for military service.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 1 month ago
      You get over that, if you are open to change and learning. Training and practice teach you what to do. Even though I am a writer, my degrees are in criminology, and I often work as a security guard. We get "defensive" training. You get overpowered by a girl a few times and it begins to sink in... Also, for the past 18 months, I have been in the Texas State Guard. Texas is a traditional place. I have run into the old-fashioned mindset in both young and old men. But operationally, the uniform defines the person. The real problem is not over-protection, but sexual harassment, which is really the other side of that same coin. It always comes down to the individual. People with good values make good decisions.

      If you care to read a narrative, allow me to recommend Love My Rifle More Than You by Kayla Williams.
      https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
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    • Posted by 8 years, 1 month ago
      I agree it was a mistake to answer the question. It was an obvious trap.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 1 month ago
        It was a Catch 22 if they said we have no draft they would have intentionally lying. We do have a draft not currently activated except EXCEPT for registration with fines and jail time for not registering.

        The proper answer would be either make equality equal or admit to being sexist with a bonus and a break for being the weaker sex.

        I'm in favor of.....a. COMPLETE equality or b. canceling the bonus for both or some other answer that is not a lie but shows knowledge of and appreciation of

        the best answer is if we don't need it why not repeal it entire

        second best answer. Enlarge the scope of service in exchange for the juicy freebie goodies. Any public service AS assigned....
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
      You're right: You would have...for the first few times you went into combat with a mixed gender team.

      Once, when I (veteran fighter) was trying to coax a male opponent (newbie) into giving me a good fight at a practice down at Mile Square Park, he stopped and said, "I just can't get used to the idea of hitting a woman. I was raised to protect them!" A high-prestige, high ranked male fighter wandered over to us, clapped him on the shoulder, and said, "Don't worry: You'll get over it." and strolled off. My opponent's jaw dropped. We squared off against each other again and I threw a few really hard blows right into his shield, and then came at him vigorously. He 'forgot' he was fighting a woman and pushed back and we had some good fights. From then on, whenever I fought him we had good hard competitive fights.

      So yes - you are a nice guy and you would initially react to protect the women (who would all be new to combat to boot). But after they had gotten some battlefield experience and you had saved each other's butts a few times in action they would have been 'part of the team'.

      Jan
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      • Posted by TheRealBill 8 years, 1 month ago
        Women with aggressive military minds and the mindset to do well in that scenario aren't new. Indeed an accurate reading of hundreds of years of monarchy shows Ruling queens were much more likely to launch a war campaign than ruling kings. And lest we think it was the young queen trying to show she isn't "weak" it was more often older and more mature queens who did so than young ones. It isn't even unheard of for a queen to take to the field despite the objections of her husband.

        Of course I side with no draft at all but if there is to be one equality demands all genders be drafted. And since we are told that jobs must somehow be distributed in a way which reflect the demographics then they must be drafted slightly more than men since women account for slightly more than half of our population (last I knew). That way we wouldn't show any sexism, right?

        Oh and that last line was 49% pure sarcasm. ;)
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        • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 1 month ago
          Actually, I agree with your last line - without even any sarcasm. If we are going to beat the statistical equality drum, let's beat it with vigor.

          Jan
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 1 month ago
      Trump would staff the military with people who could get the job done, whoever and whatever they were. Obama doesnt know what he is doing, period. Trump runs big business and HAS to pick the right people or it wouldnt work.

      When the USA goes to war to defend itself, it should do so to WIN. In the case of fighting with an enemy, that means we kill them before they kill us. I would have no problem killing an enemy soldier at all. Call it politically incorrect, but if the enemy had a bomb and was going to kill me, I wouldnt care if it were a woman or a child even.
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  • Posted by dave42 8 years, 1 month ago
    No, but then neither should men. The draft violates the 13th Amendment:

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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