No Chesty, only some of those can opt out but not all. I can assure you I never had that option but you are correct that some public employees did. If I had to guess I would say that the ones who did have the opt out option were in the big city retirement systems while I was in the NY State security services retirement system. I am not saying you are wrong but you are not right where my pension is concerned.

Ha Ha Ha, that's funny...USA TODAY LOL. Gary are you a liberal just having fun here? How is it Gary that Teachers, Police, Firefighters and union members can optout of S.S. then...try learning before you speak...You are a funny guy!

I don't wish to insult anybody, but I do feel it should be pointed out that most SS recipients wind up receiving a lot more money from SS than they ever paid into it. Especially the rich. (David Friedman, in The Machinery of Freedom, pointed out how SS takes from the poor to pay the rich, both because the rich start work later in life and retire earlier, and because the rich have much longer life expectancies after retiring, so they'll be around to collect much more.)

thank you for this comment

You have 100 years of proof behind what you say. For over 100 years our boarders were open in the US, but yet we did not attract loafers but people who want to work.

You attract the type of people you have programs for. If your programs are, come work hard, keep what you earn and we stay out of your way, only those who want that would come.

There are some very hard working people that believe socialism is the right way. They are willing to give half of what they earn to the government, both the loafers and those types would not come to a gulch.

You might want to brush up on the laws!
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/...

In a hypothetical physical Gulch such as in AS (without gov overview; plenty of resources but low tech initially), your skill set would be what got us through the initial survival stage. So if you are asking if you could earn a living in that type of Gulch, the answer would be Yes. In other (equally hypothetical) versions of the Gulch your survival skills might not be important, and you would be producing a luxury good with your cabinet making skills. In that case, you would have to sell your product (or fall back to being a day laborer).

If you are asking if you would be welcome then the question is more difficult: We have some agreement on exclusionary criteria (ie Moochers) but little agreement on inclusionary criteria (including Objectivism, a-religious philosophy, copyright, boundary control, 'harm', secondary effects, etc). If we go with just the not-a-Moocher criterion, then you are welcome indeed; anything more...and I would just be speaking for myself.

Jan

Gary, 1st S.S. is a Federal plan not State & yes Gary it is opt in/out that is why you need 2 fill out the S.S. paperwork if wanted when hired, so there is no FALSE CLAIM only a false understanding of social security from you... it's okay, many are not told the whole truth

Thanks Herb! I would have preferred to begin my working career in the Gulch. I am quite certain I would be much better off today if I had contributed to the gulch all along with my set of skills. Value for value and my skills and labor for yours is a way of life I could easily have done well with. Not now though with age taking the tolls and my career putting strains on lots of my parts. I went from HS in 1970 directly to the US Navy during Vietnam and then upon discharge directly into the prison system for 27 years, on the right side of the bars.

There is no validity to the claim that SS is voluntary here in NY with state employees. I never, ever had the option to opt out and I have no idea where that false claim came from. My pension is in no way linked to my SS either so I am free to collect both with no effect on either. Some other NY pensions do have a SS offset but not mine.

You're welcome by me. :)

Are there some in the Gulch who won't welcome you, see you as a moocher? Possibly.

It doesn't really matter, does it? Wherever there is more than one person, there is a difference of opinion.

I believe there are many ways to be a producer. I'm not crazy about Social Security but I do believe that after years of paying into it, one truly is "entitled" to take from it.

But what does what I think matter?

You know what you have done in your life. You know what you are doing now. If someone doesn't welcome you because they believe accepting SS makes you a moocher, they'll have to reconcile that with what they believe Rand was when she accepted the same.

Maybe one could be considered a producer based on previous production. An author doesn't necessarily stop producing once he is no longer able to write. Rand still produces as does Dickens.

I welcome you...but expect an argument if we are ever on different sides of the philosophical coin! :)

I. Don't. Care.
But. I. Like. You. Back.
Always. Have.
ROAR!

Actually I didnt mean anything bad about "feeding off the state" in my comment. It was just that you were surviving on getting back what they took from you and the extra earnings they promised you after you retired. You are pretty much free of the state at this point (except for property and sales taxes) so enjoy it. For me, I am still working and would like being in the Gulch as it were to gain some future freedom from the state.

I'm sorry to tell you this Gary, but though you think S.S. is an entitlement it isn't, it is not a savings plan either. It is an early form of socialist welfare which actually was designed to take in much more then it ever paid out.

The gov't knowing by Constutitonal law it could not save money it spends every penny [and more now since the deal with the Federal Reserve in 1913] it takes in; so social security is not a savings plan it is pay as you go.

Also it is a voluntary plan, even if you think it mandatory...it is not, MOST public workers, teachers, fire and Police officers know this and do not participate in such a con as S.S.

It is important to know what is and isn't yours in order to make your decision on the Gulch

The question isn't would 'you be welcome' but more aptly ‘would you welcome going to’ the Gulch!

This question is easily answered, but possibly not easily thought; for insistence do you mind leaving your Social Security and State Pension behind, taking with you only the net worth you hold. You will/can barter, working to make up the difference to get what you need to survive for the rest of your life. Then the Gulch is for you.

If you do not and want to continue doing what you are doing then you have decided not to go on your own.

In the Gulch there is no taking from another for your needs, that is after all what a public worker does and that may be tough to leave.

I do have a question though, State workers have the knowledge that Social Security is not mandatory & that Social Security is removed when a public pension is involved yet you claim to get both, how? Was your wife the Public Servant, just asking for the sake of knowledge.

Let us know when you have answered your own question…

Hello GaryL
Gotcha beat in age by 17 years.
I collect Socialist Security because it was taken from me by coercion and I'm merely getting a portion of it back. I've been fairly monetarily successful, so I have some money stashed away, and hopefully the $$ won't collapse while I'm alive. I'm also not lazy, but I am a disabled physical wreck whose body is falling apart incrementally. (Which I resent because I've done nothing to deserve it). However, the brain is working pretty good. The memory needs to be kick started now and then, but otherwise it gets me into trouble pretty much all over the world via the internet. Frankly, I love the Gulch. I get to give the newbies the benefit of my vast experience and knowledge, but even better, I get to learn from all the others posting on this fine instrument. Based on your description of yourself, I think you'll fit in here just fine, and besides, if you don't, I sure as hell don't either.

"Feeding off the State" rubs me wrong as does sucking of the government teat for collecting SS. I went to work for the state for the promise of a meager pension and worked 27 years to earn it. I started working at age 14 and paid SS taxes from every dime I ever earned. There are far too many feeding of the state and fed who never did a thing to earn it but I do not include myself in that group. I carry no guilt on pay days or at any other time.

You would be welcome in my gulch as long as you would not expect anything from me except value for value. :)

I don't always agree with you, dino, but I think you 'is the berries'. Roar away!

Jan

I'm 68, a retired state worker and I fully demand, not milksop request, that my pension and SS to be protected and paid on time every time.
I was once criticized by someone here for my stating that I am entitled to my SS for paying into it since age 14 with a summer job.
I. Don't. Care.
Someone else once called me arrogant because I'm not an atheist, who thinks Christians, whether they work for the government or a bakery, should not be bullied or have their lives ruined by radical gays
I. Still. Don't. Care.
How is someone who calls hims allosaur supposed to act? Humble?
I. Don't. Think. So.
By the way, I think Ayn Rand is the berries!
"The berries" is what Al Capone once called something he liked.
I am dino--
Hear me roar!

GaryL, what you say is true about paying from every paycheck. I noticed last night, in Senator Paul's tax plan he would collect a "fair and flat" tax from all and eliminate payroll taxes. My take on that is a generation down the road no one will be able to say they paid into this for a lifetime. For me, this exposes a deep believe in government that owns and controls everyone and every thing. Even the most libertarian candidate has trouble understand personal property vs. government property.

Once government pivots away from you paying in for a lifetime...they will be fully able to decide what our "entitlement" will be.

I shrugged unconsciously, once -- lost half of my blood
and couldn't do anything else!!! -- j
.

you have earned it, as I have and many others have;;;
relax, enjoy and vote for a better U.S., Gary -- that's
my advice, and Welcome To The Gulch, IMHO. -- john
.

It would be very hard to build an actual Gulch because it would excel and attract the attention of the statists who would want to tax and regulate it to death. Look at what happens with the Warren Jeffs sect of Mormonism, or the branch Dividians at Waco. The statists would hate the Gulch, and there would be also hordes of unwashed trying to take what it had. Defense would be a big expense if not an unbearable expense.

Better to create a virtual gulch where like minded people lived close to each other and traded as much as possible within the bounds of the group. Something like the book and movie ALONGSIDE NIGHT.

The idea would be to insulate ourselves as much as possible from the devastation of the statists, while hiding in plain sight to avoid being attacked by the statists. An idea to think about.

since the "gulch" was in reality Telluride Colorado you would be welcome because it has available all of the things you like to do hunt, fish and hike.