I agree, its probably self limiting. Bums would just not get any money and would have to leave to survive. They could move to Las Vegas where seemingly rational people constantly give money to the street bums to 'help" them. In reality they just "hurt" them by letting them think they can go through life without doing anything.

I still work at 70 and run afoul of government intrusions all the time in business- between regulations that take money out of my pocket indirectly, and taxes which take it directly. I would benefit a lot from living in the Gulch. I dont want to pay any more into SS, and the little I get back from it after paying into it all my life is pretty pathetic. Life would be a bit primitive for a few years while a Gulch started up, but would soon excel as a good place to live I think.

I wonder if the Gulch would really benefit you at this point. You are already feeding off the state. Its unlikely you will run afoul of the government edicts for the rest of your life on earth. Might as well enjoy it right where you are.

I would definitely help to build Gulch. To bad it isn't a actual real place to go, but why couldn't we do that. Our world around us is slowly crumbling away. The prophecy of the end, I believe. I can help and I can also teach children which is an amazing thing, because their life right now is being thrown away by cell phines and the social media.

The question becomes immaterial once you realize the premise of the Gulch. According to that premise, the government is going to collapse. Social Security will, when that happens, disappear--if it doesn't disappear sooner. And in fact, Ragnar Danneskjöld, or his counterparts, would be out there trying to get your money back for you in his unique way.

I wouldn't worry, then, about drawing Social Security as a disqualifier. And it sounds as though you would have a job waiting for you: as groundskeeper for Midas Mulligan and many of his earliest tenants. Including John Galt, Ragnar Danneskjöld, and perhaps even Francisco d'Anconia, if he didn't already hire one of his Old Family Retainers to take care of his property while he was out spying on the Outside and trying to recruit Hank Rearden. Plus, you could fish in the Uncompahgre River, maybe even enough to have extra fish to sell at Hammond's General Store. And who wouldn't want your cabinet-making services?

I don't pick winners and losers in these debates but it was by far the best one so far. At this point I can trim the numbers down to 5-6 candidates to go forward and the rest can go home and get real jobs.

LOL I am watching as I type this

Sounds exactly like me and my brother Gcarl. Respect for others was a taught and learned lesson from our family as long as respect was earned and deserved. Thanks for responding but now I need to watch the debates and hope to get some real perspectives from real and substantive questions.

Garyl, I am 66 years old and live off of an annuity and SS. I have lots of skills that I use for only me. I am trying to acquire more 1800's skills all the time. I share with no one save my brother who lives close. We pretty much keep our ventures to ourselves. If the Gulch ever actually presents itself and I am allowed to participate, I would welcome you so long as we respect each other.

Thanks O.A.!
The Gulch is not far removed from the Tribal life we came from. Every member of a tribe had a value either self proclaimed or assigned. If one could not hunt then they fished for food, scraped hides, carried water or did some necessary task. The one thing that was never allowed was sitting around smoking the peace pipe and showing up for dinner. They did care for the old, young and sick but those who made a habit of loafing got banished. Seems as though we have come a long way from Tribal times and not gone all that far.

I do not believe the gulch would be attractive to someone with that mindset as they would not have anyone to trade value for value with. The individual in the gulch is there because they believe in providing their best for yours. A freeloader has no value and would not find the gulch as profitable for their mindset. Besides Midas would never sell to a freeloader;)

Greetings GaryL,
Rand also accepted SS. She did not object to people receiving social security... only the forceful taking of it in the first place. Why would she object to getting back your own money? Imagine the profit one could make with the money properly invested as opposed to sending it to Washington where the piggy bank is constantly robbed.

The Myth - Ayn Rand violated her own philosophy by collecting social security.
The Truth:
This is the same as claiming that if you are against robbery, and you were one of Bernie Madoff's victims, you violate your principles by putting in a claim for partial restitution.
She addressed a similar issue in her article "The Question of Scholarships,” The Objectivist, June, 1966. From that article:
"Many students of Objectivism are troubled by a certain kind of moral dilemma confronting them in today’s society. We are frequently asked the questions: “Is it morally proper to accept scholarships, private or public?” and: “Is it morally proper for an advocate of capitalism to accept a government research grant or a government job?

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/gov...

Respectfully,
O.A.

So, if we all come together and build a community calling it the Gulch, we all chip in and lend a hand.
How then do we deal with those who want to live in the Gulch but never lifted a finger to build it?

You just stated why the word 'entitlement' is attached to SS.

I've had this argument a few times now with some who think I am taking a government entitlement by being capable of working but accepting social security instead. I reject this claim that SS is an entitlement given the fact that I paid into this system for over 50 years and from every paycheck I ever got. Unlike some collecting SS, I feel like I earned mine and that is the reason I asked this question here.

I think you'd fit in just fine.

It sounds like you would have value to trade and are an honest person who values reason and does not expect the unearned. Of course I would welcome you.

are you consciously shrugging?