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Would I be welcome in the Gulch?

Posted by GaryL 4 years, 11 months ago to Ask the Gulch
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There is no question my heart is in the Gulch but I have always wondered at this stage in my life would I be welcome.
The basics being I am age 64, retired with a state pension and collecting SS. Wife still works but I stay home keeping up the home and property and care taking for my neighbors property while they winter in Florida and California. I have many skills yet I chose to keep mostly to my self with them and have done all the outside mechanic, woodworking, cabinet making and handy man fix ups that I care to do any more. I am certainly not lazy but will admit I have had just about enough of being used and abused where outside work is concerned. Friends and family on a reciprocal basis get my attention these days and I no longer hire myself out as I did in the past. These days I am in cruise control and just enjoy fishing, light hunting, hiking and relaxing. Would I be welcome in the Gulch?


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    Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
    I've had this argument a few times now with some who think I am taking a government entitlement by being capable of working but accepting social security instead. I reject this claim that SS is an entitlement given the fact that I paid into this system for over 50 years and from every paycheck I ever got. Unlike some collecting SS, I feel like I earned mine and that is the reason I asked this question here.
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    • 14
      Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 4 years, 11 months ago
      Greetings GaryL,
      Rand also accepted SS. She did not object to people receiving social security... only the forceful taking of it in the first place. Why would she object to getting back your own money? Imagine the profit one could make with the money properly invested as opposed to sending it to Washington where the piggy bank is constantly robbed.

      The Myth - Ayn Rand violated her own philosophy by collecting social security.
      The Truth:
      This is the same as claiming that if you are against robbery, and you were one of Bernie Madoff's victims, you violate your principles by putting in a claim for partial restitution.
      She addressed a similar issue in her article "The Question of Scholarships,” The Objectivist, June, 1966. From that article:
      "Many students of Objectivism are troubled by a certain kind of moral dilemma confronting them in today’s society. We are frequently asked the questions: “Is it morally proper to accept scholarships, private or public?” and: “Is it morally proper for an advocate of capitalism to accept a government research grant or a government job?

      http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/gov...

      Respectfully,
      O.A.
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      • Posted by term2 4 years, 11 months ago
        I still work at 70 and run afoul of government intrusions all the time in business- between regulations that take money out of my pocket indirectly, and taxes which take it directly. I would benefit a lot from living in the Gulch. I dont want to pay any more into SS, and the little I get back from it after paying into it all my life is pretty pathetic. Life would be a bit primitive for a few years while a Gulch started up, but would soon excel as a good place to live I think.
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      • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
        Thanks O.A.!
        The Gulch is not far removed from the Tribal life we came from. Every member of a tribe had a value either self proclaimed or assigned. If one could not hunt then they fished for food, scraped hides, carried water or did some necessary task. The one thing that was never allowed was sitting around smoking the peace pipe and showing up for dinner. They did care for the old, young and sick but those who made a habit of loafing got banished. Seems as though we have come a long way from Tribal times and not gone all that far.
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        • Posted by broskjold22 4 years, 11 months ago
          GaryL, for sure it is not about being a part of the tribe inasmuch as being part of the tribe entitles one to its benefits. In Galts Gulch, the transfer of goods and services was bought with gold, a distinct challenge to entitlement that could be a feature of tribal life. It's about trade, and the trader principle derives directly from the oath. The oath is what qualifies you to belong to the Gulch, not some social status inherent in tribalism. There are no chiefs, only individuals. "He who does not work shall not eat" or "pulling your own weight" refer to a collectivist ethics.
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    • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 4 years, 11 months ago
      You just stated why the word 'entitlement' is attached to SS.
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      • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
        So, if we all come together and build a community calling it the Gulch, we all chip in and lend a hand.
        How then do we deal with those who want to live in the Gulch but never lifted a finger to build it?
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        • Posted by tkstone 4 years, 11 months ago
          I do not believe the gulch would be attractive to someone with that mindset as they would not have anyone to trade value for value with. The individual in the gulch is there because they believe in providing their best for yours. A freeloader has no value and would not find the gulch as profitable for their mindset. Besides Midas would never sell to a freeloader;)
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          • Posted by XenokRoy 4 years, 11 months ago
            You have 100 years of proof behind what you say. For over 100 years our boarders were open in the US, but yet we did not attract loafers but people who want to work.

            You attract the type of people you have programs for. If your programs are, come work hard, keep what you earn and we stay out of your way, only those who want that would come.

            There are some very hard working people that believe socialism is the right way. They are willing to give half of what they earn to the government, both the loafers and those types would not come to a gulch.
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          • Posted by term2 4 years, 11 months ago
            I agree, its probably self limiting. Bums would just not get any money and would have to leave to survive. They could move to Las Vegas where seemingly rational people constantly give money to the street bums to 'help" them. In reality they just "hurt" them by letting them think they can go through life without doing anything.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 4 years, 11 months ago
            "Besides Midas would never sell to a freeloader;)"
            I wonder if for a Gulch-like society to work it would require someone who acts as a benevolent dictator at measuring whether people mean the oath.
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        • Posted by nelly1611 4 years, 11 months ago
          I would definitely help to build Gulch. To bad it isn't a actual real place to go, but why couldn't we do that. Our world around us is slowly crumbling away. The prophecy of the end, I believe. I can help and I can also teach children which is an amazing thing, because their life right now is being thrown away by cell phines and the social media.
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          • Posted by term2 4 years, 11 months ago
            It would be very hard to build an actual Gulch because it would excel and attract the attention of the statists who would want to tax and regulate it to death. Look at what happens with the Warren Jeffs sect of Mormonism, or the branch Dividians at Waco. The statists would hate the Gulch, and there would be also hordes of unwashed trying to take what it had. Defense would be a big expense if not an unbearable expense.

            Better to create a virtual gulch where like minded people lived close to each other and traded as much as possible within the bounds of the group. Something like the book and movie ALONGSIDE NIGHT.

            The idea would be to insulate ourselves as much as possible from the devastation of the statists, while hiding in plain sight to avoid being attacked by the statists. An idea to think about.
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    • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
      I'm sorry to tell you this Gary, but though you think S.S. is an entitlement it isn't, it is not a savings plan either. It is an early form of socialist welfare which actually was designed to take in much more then it ever paid out.

      The gov't knowing by Constutitonal law it could not save money it spends every penny [and more now since the deal with the Federal Reserve in 1913] it takes in; so social security is not a savings plan it is pay as you go.

      Also it is a voluntary plan, even if you think it mandatory...it is not, MOST public workers, teachers, fire and Police officers know this and do not participate in such a con as S.S.

      It is important to know what is and isn't yours in order to make your decision on the Gulch
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      • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 11 months ago
        Chesty, not to be contrary, but I do not have the option, and never had, to not let them take my money, it has always been that way since I started working in a bakery at age 13. I do not think business has a choice either, and most people do not realize that 50% of their SS money came from their employers. The only reason I know of that anyone was exempted, was the Railroad unions who negotiated their own form of it with FDR's cabal. Other than that, any group exempted has done so through nefarious political and financial contributing. The end result of all that shenannigans is we have states with "exempt" groups (as in PERS in Oregon), that cannot support themselves, and so they tax the crap out of me through various sleazy tricks such as property tax, income tax, etc tax, and then funnel it into these systems that provide benefits that are unsustainable, and funded through our backsides. If SS is the law of the land, it should apply to everyone, regardless of work, from President Obobo to the Taco Bell folks. All income should be retained for paying future payouts and not given to the Fed (anything over what they payout is given to the Feds and then replaced with paper IOU bonds). If SS is a con, then it is either eliminated, or imposed on everyone. The current situation is one effect of all the exemptions and special cases, which cause it to be a con. Nothing is as irritating as having retirement systems foisted on us by politicos to garner votes, and then get backdoor funding off my a@#.
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        • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
          Actually Nick the gov't is not allowed to tax your 'earned income' by any means other then by apportionment; ie: $1 from Bill Gates $1 from Nick.
          It has been that way since 1792 w/ a brief unconstitiutional time from 1861 to 1865. The Federal knows this...I thing that is why they all want to pass a flat tax; IT IS THE WAY TO GET AMERICANS TO REPEAL THE APPORTIONMENT PORTION of the US Constitution which they have NEVER been able to do before. You see Nick et al. we have been tricked since 1939 to voluntarilly put our 'earned' into the category of 'unearned' by way of filling out the W4 [in 1935 they started with the Social Security tax paperwork]. You may think it mandatory & you do from your post. BUT IT IS NOT!

          Now I know you will raise the false flag of:
          "the 16th Amendment"
          but as all good Con's go you have been duped.

          You see SCOTUS as answered that false statement over 28 times the last in I believe 2008, most beginning in 1913; from the Brushaber v Union Pacific Railroad Case of 1916 [when SCOTUS tried of having to repeat themselves over and over again]:
          “…the CONFUSION is not inherent, but rather ARISES FROM THE CONCLUSION THAT THE 16th AMENDMENT PROVIDES for a hitherto UNKNOWN POWER OF TAXATION -- that is, A POWER TO LEVY AN INCOME TAX which, ALTHOUGH DIRECT, should NOT SUBJECT TO THE REGULATION OF APPORTIONMENT applicable to all other direct taxes. And the far-reaching effect of THIS ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION WILL BE MADE CLEAR by generalizing the many contentions advanced in argument to support it, as follows: (a) The Amendment authorizes only a particular character of direct tax without apportionment, and therefore if a tax is levied under its assumed authority which does not partake of the characteristics exacted by the Amendment, it is outside of the Amendment, and is void as a direct tax in the general constitutional sense because not apportioned. (b) As the Amendment authorizes a tax only upon incomes "from whatever source derived," the exclusion from taxation of some income of designated persons and classes is not authorized, and hence the constitutionality of the law must be tested by the general provisions of the Constitution as to taxation, and thus again the tax is void for want of apportionment. (c) As the right to tax "incomes from whatever source derived" for which the Amendment provides must be considered as exacting intrinsic uniformity, therefore no tax comes under the authority of the Amendment not conforming to such standard,"

          It is long winded but percise...

          Yes Nick et al. it is shocking but true!

          How it's perpetrated is by fear. The 'IRS' a gov't agency much like the Fed Res, Dept of Edu, Osha, the EPA get's to omit things in verbal communication, they assign a 'withholding agent' in non public businesses [non gov't] and they tell this person that everyone MUST GET W4 & Social Security [FICA] paperwork, if they do not the agent can be jailed and or fined! This person believes that you must fill them out, [doesn't say that anywhere], also the documents only pertain to taxpayers not non-taxpayers so they do not have to spell non-taxpayer information out.

          Once you fill it out you are locked in [post 2007] because in 1939 there was created a regulation to opt out after the 'war' if you wanted too. They never printed this as an offical document and until 2007 you could just write it out and submit it, but alas in 2007 the IRS decided it would NO LONGER EXCEPT ANY DOCUMENTS OTHER THEN OFFICAL DOCUMENTS PRINTED BY THE IRS. No document no opt out after signing!

          Now Companies have been threatened with 'possible' auditing if they push the issue...so you as an American Citizen are all alone against the Fed Gov't on your taxes being illegally or falsely taken.

          But at least now you know the truth!
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          • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 11 months ago
            Chesty, While I agree that your logic looks sound, I guess the real issue is that our govt is no longer representative of either the people or the foundations it was built on. Hence the great number of "secret gov't" conspiracy theories. I think all they refer to is the current, uncontrolled "State" that thinks we serve it, not the other way around. Thanks for the details, very interesting.
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    • Posted by $ sjatkins 4 years, 11 months ago
      I have seen my SS report. To date I have paid in $240,000. That money in even a modest market following investment account would have generated millions. Of that money I have to argue with government bureaucrats to get as much as perhaps $1900/month if I wait until I am 67 to draw it. Yet it was sold to me as "my" retirement account. If it is mine why can't i just draw the entire thing and invest it somewhere decent or use it as seed capital for my startup.

      You did earn it. It is your own money with most of it stolen for other purposes.
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    • Posted by tasine 4 years, 11 months ago
      YOU didn't set up the SS system. GOVERNMENT set it up. YOUR money was taken from you, sent to DC, and you had government dictate when you could have it. YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT. GOVERNMENT was in the wrong to write a program that was not financially wise.
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      • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
        Sorry, you are incorrect. You opted into a plan [you signed the paperwork], that was not a retirement plan but a pay those already retired plan.

        How can I prove this to you, hmmm.

        Easy, NO government of the United States including the Federal can save any of the Taxpayers money from year to year any surplus must be either returned equally or the taxes lowered the following year.

        So Social Security ISN'T A SAVINGS PLAN and YOU OPTED INTO IT.

        It is only a failed plan because people are living longer. In 1935 when it was devised they used the best Life Insurance companies and life expectancy charts to make it that only 1 out of approximately 8 people paying in will survive to get anything substantial back.

        So yes from the beginning it was a scam, still is today.

        Please don't shoot the messenger for giving you the facts of this matter
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        • Posted by tasine 4 years, 11 months ago
          Goodness me! I've never even taken a shot at anyone, whether he knew what he was talking about or merely bloviating to try to impress. Of course it is a ponzi scheme and people were lead to believe they had no choice but to pay into it

          What paperwork did all of us sign at the time of our employment?
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          • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
            W4 paperwork and Social Security Paperwork...not All of us there are close to 30 million that have done it the correct way and there are others that know and only pay income tax on our 'EARNED INCOME' by actual choice
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    • Posted by jdg 4 years, 11 months ago
      I don't wish to insult anybody, but I do feel it should be pointed out that most SS recipients wind up receiving a lot more money from SS than they ever paid into it. Especially the rich. (David Friedman, in The Machinery of Freedom, pointed out how SS takes from the poor to pay the rich, both because the rich start work later in life and retire earlier, and because the rich have much longer life expectancies after retiring, so they'll be around to collect much more.)
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      • Posted by DeanStriker 4 years, 11 months ago
        I beg to differ. Just today came
        https://mises.org/library/social-secu...
        SS is little but another Ponzi scam, manipulated at will by the proponents of Force. They, as usual, steal the fruits of our labor, take their cut off the top, and redistribute a variable portion based the their concept of "need".
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 11 months ago
          Actually that was a well reasoned argument in favor of tossing it, however, the political power to do that is non-existent. The senior voting block is one of the largest single issue power houses there is an no politico will even mention how bad SS is, let alone try to fix it.
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          • Posted by DeanStriker 4 years, 11 months ago
            I am among the seniors on SS, and it's the only income I have, so of course this is a huge problem for me. But I fully expect that the Great Global Collapse will put our Rulership out of business, at which time there will be no "money", no checks nor anybody being paid to tend to such matters anyway.

            That's not only SS, but everything. E.G my lady-partner gets a smaller SS plus a larger draw from from her deceased hubby's Federal Retirement. That will also be unpaid, leaving us with no income whatsoever.

            I suppose it will matter less as hyperinflation will quickly wipe out the dollar anyway. We don't hold much in dollars, but have some meager junk silver on hand. It will be that and hopefully we can manage to barter while a better and voluntary system evolves. Now our age 77, it won't be easy, but our end is nearing anyway, but starvation is not a nice way to go!
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            • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 11 months ago
              Well, I wouldn't go too far with it all going south soon. The ones who think they are in control have every incentive to keep this mass of paper ridden financial junk going as long as they can. I think the bank failures in 2007 showed that. It is just they keep doing more and more to try to get the system to implode, such as the current round of "free college" crap and other looter boondoggles. Eventually you burden the system with so much entitlements (which are already unaffordable), that it can't go anymore. I just keep trying to grab silver and gold in small amounts whenever I can, it will be worth a lot more in the post era.
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        • Posted by jdg 4 years, 11 months ago
          That is also true. And I've been advocating for years that the scheme be wound down ASAP, while it's still possible to pay people most of what they were promised, or at least give them their money back. Because like any Ponzi scheme, it will eventually collapse.

          And of course the federal government has no power to be distributing welfare at all outside of DC.
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          • Posted by DeanStriker 4 years, 11 months ago
            "Winding Down" seems no longer in the picture. What should happen is flat shutdown NOW, with all residual SS monies being refunded to their rightful senior owners. But of course our Rulers have already spend our money, so good luck with that one!
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            • Posted by jdg 4 years, 11 months ago
              There isn't any residual SS money. The SS trust fund contains nothing but Treasury bonds, so as long as SS does continue to pay benefits, even the part that "comes from the trust fund" is still from current tax revenue (or newly "printed" money).
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      • Posted by $ sjatkins 4 years, 11 months ago
        Baloney. The last I checked I can get $1900/month from SS after having paid in $240K to date. At that rate the straight pay in, never mind interest it should have been accruing would last over 10 years.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 4 years, 11 months ago
    I'm 68, a retired state worker and I fully demand, not milksop request, that my pension and SS to be protected and paid on time every time.
    I was once criticized by someone here for my stating that I am entitled to my SS for paying into it since age 14 with a summer job.
    I. Don't. Care.
    Someone else once called me arrogant because I'm not an atheist, who thinks Christians, whether they work for the government or a bakery, should not be bullied or have their lives ruined by radical gays
    I. Still. Don't. Care.
    How is someone who calls hims allosaur supposed to act? Humble?
    I. Don't. Think. So.
    By the way, I think Ayn Rand is the berries!
    "The berries" is what Al Capone once called something he liked.
    I am dino--
    Hear me roar!
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    • Posted by $ Suzanne43 4 years, 11 months ago
      What I hate about social security is that I was forced to be in the program. It's a fact (I read it someplace) that if I had been able to invest my social security money myself that I could probably have made three times more than what I am getting. It's not the taking of the monthly check, that's the problem, it's being told by the government that you have be in one of the largest pyramid schemes for all times. You, Ayn Rand, and the people in the Gulch are "the berries." You help keep me sane.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 4 years, 11 months ago
        You may have lost some of that $3X? during the crash of 2008 and I know an old car insurance agent who seriously did out of his 41K.
        Still, I'm not defending SS for taking money out of anyone's paycheck.
        SS took $ out of each and every one of mine and I want my freaking payback.
        I'm due my freaking payback until the day I die.
        There is a big difference between my paid all my working life entitled and the "entitled" gimmes gimmes imagined by some wetback Senor El Moochardo.
        But you know that.
        (That's for other readers who may come along).
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 11 months ago
          I'm with you dino, if someone is going to stick their hand in my pocket, then damn well put something back. The irrition comes from it not just being SS but all the other crap they take. I just pulled my property taxes and they have gone up for 20 years and the idiots still need "special" levies for everything from cops to toilet paper. It's not just SS thats a scam, the whole system is broke. But we here know that...
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      • Posted by $ sjatkins 4 years, 11 months ago
        Agreed. I would happily take what I paid in as lump sum and sign a document that he government owes me nothing more and that they will take nothing more from me in SS fees.
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    • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
      Allo you are not entitled to Social Security...Being 68 you heard that it was a pay as you go plan from back in the 1950's, 60's, 70's & 80's so to claim YOU PAID IN means nothing you did not pay into a savings plan it was not an account with your name on it. So just like the Ponzi scheme's of old you were tricked. You can get mad at me or others for your mistake but it is not us that fell into it...it was you.

      I am sorry, but the truth of the fed gov't plans must be known to all in order for us to know what to do.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 4 years, 11 months ago
        I am too entitled because I paid in on a promise.
        Should some day liars refuse to pay me what I am due, I will get mad at them.
        Getting mad at you for saying I am not entitled is a waste of my time.
        Meanwhile, I am still collecting my payments.
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        • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
          Tell us; what was the promise?
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          • Posted by $ allosaur 4 years, 11 months ago
            That the SS would pay me X amount of money monthly. What else could that be?
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            • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
              Actually, if you read it fully they always write it as You 'SHOULD' receive this much per month 'BASED' on current information or something to that affect...Social Security is not a guaranteed amount nor is it any type of savings account.

              I am not the one who played tricks on the American citizenry, I am but one of the citizen's that saw what the game is.

              I wish you the best
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              • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
                Give it a break Chesty! A couple grand extra in my pocket every month sure has made life a lot better for me. I don't much care what the math is. Those who might never live long enough to collect a dime of it or those who might get totally screwed if it runs out would have a real beech but for us who have paid and are now better off in our twilight years with it I say take every damn dime you can get, Live long and prosper!
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                • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
                  Gary you want it. its there, you signed up for it...But, your comments about it were/are incorrect. For everyone here it is best we clarify and correct errors. If you don't want to help educate others; tell us why are you here?
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                  • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
                    I contend that I NEVER had the option of opting out of the SS plan when I began my career with the NYS dept of Corrections. You seem to feel that I did yet according to my retirement system they say you are wrong and I had no choice. What exactly would you like me to correct?
                    Go and do the research since you are the expert here on SS and prove to us all that I had the option of opting out.
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                • Posted by $ allosaur 4 years, 11 months ago
                  Amen. Why do some folks want to get into my SS senior citizen hair around that bald spot?
                  Even my savings may go bye-bye should there be a huge economic collapse, rendering even cash useless..
                  Eat, drink and be merry!
                  For tomorrow we may all starve!
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      • Posted by $ sjatkins 4 years, 11 months ago
        In short they robbed us and promised to give us the money when we retire and now you say it isn't ours. It bloody well is ours. It is the government that is saying BS. Don't glorify it by acting like that is the truth and we are deluded.
        That the government mismanaged the money and tries to renege doesn't change that. It is not "my mistake" as I was forced at gunpoint. It was not "me".
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        • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
          Actually, any knowledge of America's history and the Constitution would show you that the U.S. gov'ts are not allowed to hold, save or earn interest on money they get from taxpayers.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 4 years, 11 months ago
    Hello GaryL
    Gotcha beat in age by 17 years.
    I collect Socialist Security because it was taken from me by coercion and I'm merely getting a portion of it back. I've been fairly monetarily successful, so I have some money stashed away, and hopefully the $$ won't collapse while I'm alive. I'm also not lazy, but I am a disabled physical wreck whose body is falling apart incrementally. (Which I resent because I've done nothing to deserve it). However, the brain is working pretty good. The memory needs to be kick started now and then, but otherwise it gets me into trouble pretty much all over the world via the internet. Frankly, I love the Gulch. I get to give the newbies the benefit of my vast experience and knowledge, but even better, I get to learn from all the others posting on this fine instrument. Based on your description of yourself, I think you'll fit in here just fine, and besides, if you don't, I sure as hell don't either.
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    • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
      Thanks Herb! I would have preferred to begin my working career in the Gulch. I am quite certain I would be much better off today if I had contributed to the gulch all along with my set of skills. Value for value and my skills and labor for yours is a way of life I could easily have done well with. Not now though with age taking the tolls and my career putting strains on lots of my parts. I went from HS in 1970 directly to the US Navy during Vietnam and then upon discharge directly into the prison system for 27 years, on the right side of the bars.
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  • Posted by tkstone 4 years, 11 months ago
    It sounds like you would have value to trade and are an honest person who values reason and does not expect the unearned. Of course I would welcome you.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 4 years, 11 months ago
    In a hypothetical physical Gulch such as in AS (without gov overview; plenty of resources but low tech initially), your skill set would be what got us through the initial survival stage. So if you are asking if you could earn a living in that type of Gulch, the answer would be Yes. In other (equally hypothetical) versions of the Gulch your survival skills might not be important, and you would be producing a luxury good with your cabinet making skills. In that case, you would have to sell your product (or fall back to being a day laborer).

    If you are asking if you would be welcome then the question is more difficult: We have some agreement on exclusionary criteria (ie Moochers) but little agreement on inclusionary criteria (including Objectivism, a-religious philosophy, copyright, boundary control, 'harm', secondary effects, etc). If we go with just the not-a-Moocher criterion, then you are welcome indeed; anything more...and I would just be speaking for myself.

    Jan
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  • Posted by gaiagal 4 years, 11 months ago
    You're welcome by me. :)

    Are there some in the Gulch who won't welcome you, see you as a moocher? Possibly.

    It doesn't really matter, does it? Wherever there is more than one person, there is a difference of opinion.

    I believe there are many ways to be a producer. I'm not crazy about Social Security but I do believe that after years of paying into it, one truly is "entitled" to take from it.

    But what does what I think matter?

    You know what you have done in your life. You know what you are doing now. If someone doesn't welcome you because they believe accepting SS makes you a moocher, they'll have to reconcile that with what they believe Rand was when she accepted the same.

    Maybe one could be considered a producer based on previous production. An author doesn't necessarily stop producing once he is no longer able to write. Rand still produces as does Dickens.

    I welcome you...but expect an argument if we are ever on different sides of the philosophical coin! :)
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  • Posted by gcarl615 4 years, 11 months ago
    Garyl, I am 66 years old and live off of an annuity and SS. I have lots of skills that I use for only me. I am trying to acquire more 1800's skills all the time. I share with no one save my brother who lives close. We pretty much keep our ventures to ourselves. If the Gulch ever actually presents itself and I am allowed to participate, I would welcome you so long as we respect each other.
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    • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
      Sounds exactly like me and my brother Gcarl. Respect for others was a taught and learned lesson from our family as long as respect was earned and deserved. Thanks for responding but now I need to watch the debates and hope to get some real perspectives from real and substantive questions.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 4 years, 11 months ago
    I am 61 so not that far behind in age. Still working fulltime and going fulltime on a startup idea soon. The critieria for entering the fictional Gulch is in you head, not in how much money you generate. In the book not everyone was a major entrepreneur or powerful figure in some field before. As for the SS, well, they forced you to donate all of your life and then give you back a very small pittance from it.

    I think we spend to much energy "hiring ourselves out" rather than finding and doing that which is of high value to ourselves.
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  • Posted by IamThereforeIThink 4 years, 11 months ago
    Well, Mr. GaryL. I should begin by cautioning you and most of the posters here, Galt's Gulch is not some super, flying, levitating, sunbathing spa community. Productivity is a principle value and virtue.
    What would you like to do?
    Tell you what, take a look at this factory remnant now available as your starting point:

    www.GaltsGulchPortal.blogspot.ca

    If you understand that Ayn Rand knew that man has never, in his 790,000 year history, been at peace with himself or his world around him what is being built is all brand new thinking from concepts with man and a rational core moving forward and upward to a real & well-defined benevolent universe. I can assure you that everyone that makes it to Mulligan's Valley in June has the whole month to decide whether they can integrate(Quentin Daniels) or return (Dagny Taggart)
    The key to your certainty is this;
    The predominant culture is Mystic/Altruist/Collectivist.

    Atlantis is Reason/Egoist/Capitalist

    Your decision hinges on whether you can see the world transitioning or collapsing first.

    Ayn Rand knew the answer but no motor-man presented himself to her during her lifetime and so she was obliged by reality to take the Dagny(rational advocate-speaking-out) approach until her death.

    If you understand that any attempt to socialize individuals around anything but a 100% complete system is doomed to fail(Chile!?).

    Ayn Rand's moral code is 100% complete any attempt to consolidate theory into practice... well...the turmoil during and implosion after her passing tells you that there's an essential missing element.
    For you Mr.GaryL. its motivation - understandable - you have no desire to contribute one ounce of you valuable knowledge and energy to help the looter/moocher code through another cycle.

    Moral Code:Motive Power:Motor Unit
    All done and well done - start with that factory remnant and see what you come up with - bring it with you in June.

    One man and his motor: It all begins with that. Come to Mulligan's Valley next June and see it for yourself.

    And I mean it.
    A $ A
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    • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
      Well written Thinker! Fact is I have plenty of energy and plenty of valuable skills to survive here and in the gulch. What I lack for the gulch is the pocket full of gold on entrance but with the principal of value for value I can earn my own keep unless I get sidelined by old age or health issues. We are certainly talking about a fictional utopia none of us are likely to ever see. In a worst case scenario I might not be a full fledged permanent inhabitant in the gulch but I damn sure would be a fine security guard at the fence that I could both build and protect.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 4 years, 11 months ago
    If the Gulch became reality tomorrow I would jump at the chance even though I'm 65yo I have the enthusiasm of a younger person for this project. So, yes you would be welcome in the Gulch.
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  • Posted by hvance 4 years, 11 months ago
    The Gulch was created for producers therefore I think you should re-think about whether you would be welcome. There is a problem in the Gulch in that no one seems to get old or have an on-going health problem. What is to be done with these folks? Are they to be piled on the scrap heap of history or are they allowed to stay in the Gulch as long as they can pay their own way? Since you have a SS check and a state pension they would both be worthless in the Gulch since those checks are a result of outright thievery by the government of the people. Unless you could bring gold to the Gulch your check or Dollars would be worthless. You would need to come to the Gulch with a job in mind otherwise I suggest that you stay at home.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 11 months ago
    Hi Gary, I am 57 and will work until I fall over. Can't afford to stop, and actually like my job. Lucky my employer has no max age, so as long as I can totter around and not screw up too much, I get to paly. Gets harder every year working nights, driving 62 miles each way, but... Be welcomed. I get yelled at a lot, as I am not the most philosophical person around, I just knew from Atlas Shrugged that Ayn Rand had the right idea of just how bad things were going to get, and why, and it codified a lot of what I had been feeling over 20 years.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 4 years, 11 months ago
    Some would welcome you with open arms. Some would say you are non-worthy. I, being kindred with you, welcome you, IF you can accept the oath, and being not a moocher, but a producer.

    I was a blatant communistic socialist - none more red than I - AND my lifelong career was that of a civil servant, some benign, some... not... yet somehow something directed me to read AS and from there I realized my life - my beliefs, my hatred for freedom, for theism, for liberty - was but a sham. Did I give up my civil service career, or disavow the ones before? Absolutely not. But I did subsequently approach it not from a civil servant moocher and looter perspective but a producer's perspective, and it changed my life. I expect to retire (finally!) and retrieve my investment into the various companies I was part and parcel thereof, but having been reborn, I realize that only by producing, by contributing my value for equal value, do I feel, indeed, complete. Beause I am seriously and severely addicted to being a producer.

    The hardest part is some of my former "dotgov" skills don't mesh seamlessly with the "civillian"world, but I still have the credo "no job too small or insignificant, and no work to meaningless to not call worthwile Work". But yet... here I am, and as a producer, here I remain.

    If you fit here... then welcome!!
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 4 years, 11 months ago
    I am also about to turn 64, but nowhere's near retirement. At one time I looked forward to a time when I could do what I wanted, when I wanted but I have found myself engulfed in skill I didn't know I had and It very well might have been my true essence all along. I have become a writer/researcher and a soon to be teacher.

    I read your commentary and thought...what is that you do, which might take a team of horses to drag you from...to do something you regularly and usually enjoy doing. Note:...that just might be what Neothink calls: one's Friday night essence.
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  • Posted by Dennis55 4 years, 11 months ago
    I believe a lot of the confusion about-can I receive SS and still be true to an Objectivist standard is the fact SS has become a much maligned political football .If one were to restate the question like this--" For the last 44 years of my working life the looters have confiscated from my paycheck a certain amount of money and allegedly put it back for my old age..... is it all right for me to take SOME of it back on a regular basis? I think the answer is obviously-yes .I don't see a lot of moral difference in taking back my OWN money or shrugging and going on strike.
    Here's where the left has broadened their tent by trying to include hard working, tax paying workers into the same class as welfare cheats, looters and moochers. Maybe I'm wrong here but I see AARP as very left leaning. Now literally how can an association of "retired persons" self identify with the moochers.
    The problem is SS by it's very definition needs overhauled beyond recognition. I don't like it-but I've been forced into it with my previous 1,144 paychecks. Value for value? Ragnar did not take anything from the RIGHTFUL OWNERS. I say emulate Ragnar and take your stuff back......
    If I pay my car insurance faithfully then get t-boned, should I feel bad when the insurance check takes care of the repair. No. And BTW- the looters in my state have made it mandatory to have car insurance. Big brother just keeps getting bigger-for now
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 4 years, 11 months ago
    Several Gulchers, in the book, were retired and merely living on their savings. Working outside the home was optional, unless you needed to work to survive.
    Saying that, recall that only gold and silver were accepted (though platinum would work, I'm sure). "Government Money", such as cash from the Federal Reserve and government pensions were worthless as they had no base on which to form a value. If a true "Galt's Gulch" were to follow the idea in the book, a prospective "citizen" would need to convert all of their assets into silver and gold or some other precious metal (I'm not sure about gems, artwork, etc.).
    Since you are existing on a government pension, considering that the government could change or remove its value at any time, I wouldn't think that a Gulch citizenship would work out (again, if going solely by the book's scenario. A "real" Galt's Gulch might have different rules, though I don't see how they could make that work, as it would be facing the same problems as the fictional Gulch.
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  • Posted by DeanStriker 4 years, 11 months ago
    If there is to actually BE a Gulch, it will be we sovereigns upon our own properties, at times expanded to include neighbors who hold the same principles. We simply refuse the extortion of our Rulers and take responsibility for ourselves. Sounds to me as if GaryL has also made his own Gulch! All of function as best we can considering how desperately the proponents of Force seek to negate all that.
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    • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
      I, like many others here had to learn to deal with the set of rules and circumstances presented to me when I got out of the USN. I did some college and got a job and just carried on as I always have. I have no guilt for what directions my life has led me through. I do have friends who have done much better but I honestly can't say they are all that much happier than we are. I remember as a kid I could fix a pals motorcycle while he raked the leaves in my yard that was a job I hated then and still do. The Gulch may be an imaginary place but I have been living in it almost all of my life. I have never felt an hour of my free time was worth any more than an hour of another's.
      A while back I had to hire a lawyer who charged me $300/ hour on a real estate deal that went bad. He wanted me to do some cabinetry work in his new home because he saw my work and liked it a lot. I gave him my price, $300/hour. I did not get that job but he got the message. I even offered him the use of my tools, saws and shop to do it himself but he valued his fingers more than mine.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 4 years, 11 months ago
        " The Gulch may be an imaginary place but I have been living in it almost all of my life. I have never felt an hour of my free time was worth any more than an hour of another's."
        The existential worth of time may be the same, but if someone can create something that solves many problems or gets people things they want, they're obviously going to earn more money.
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      • Posted by DeanStriker 4 years, 11 months ago
        Long ago I had a top young attorney. Back then his charges made sense, nothing near $300/hour. I paid him by building him a couple of bookcases the first time, then a few years later he traded his services bill for a good big cement mixer, and asked if he could leave it at my biz for a while. Somebody then stole the mixer and lawyer said "forget it -- you weren't responsible..." and there was no bill.
        I did like your offer of $300/hour -- and you made a great point@
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  • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
    The question isn't would 'you be welcome' but more aptly ‘would you welcome going to’ the Gulch!

    This question is easily answered, but possibly not easily thought; for insistence do you mind leaving your Social Security and State Pension behind, taking with you only the net worth you hold. You will/can barter, working to make up the difference to get what you need to survive for the rest of your life. Then the Gulch is for you.

    If you do not and want to continue doing what you are doing then you have decided not to go on your own.

    In the Gulch there is no taking from another for your needs, that is after all what a public worker does and that may be tough to leave.

    I do have a question though, State workers have the knowledge that Social Security is not mandatory & that Social Security is removed when a public pension is involved yet you claim to get both, how? Was your wife the Public Servant, just asking for the sake of knowledge.

    Let us know when you have answered your own question…
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    • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
      There is no validity to the claim that SS is voluntary here in NY with state employees. I never, ever had the option to opt out and I have no idea where that false claim came from. My pension is in no way linked to my SS either so I am free to collect both with no effect on either. Some other NY pensions do have a SS offset but not mine.
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      • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
        Gary, 1st S.S. is a Federal plan not State & yes Gary it is opt in/out that is why you need 2 fill out the S.S. paperwork if wanted when hired, so there is no FALSE CLAIM only a false understanding of social security from you... it's okay, many are not told the whole truth
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        • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
          You might want to brush up on the laws!
          http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/...
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          • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
            Ha Ha Ha, that's funny...USA TODAY LOL. Gary are you a liberal just having fun here? How is it Gary that Teachers, Police, Firefighters and union members can optout of S.S. then...try learning before you speak...You are a funny guy!
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            • Posted by 4 years, 11 months ago
              No Chesty, only some of those can opt out but not all. I can assure you I never had that option but you are correct that some public employees did. If I had to guess I would say that the ones who did have the opt out option were in the big city retirement systems while I was in the NY State security services retirement system. I am not saying you are wrong but you are not right where my pension is concerned.
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              • Posted by ChestyPuller 4 years, 11 months ago
                Gary I wasn't talking your pension I was talking in general...to discuss your pension I would have to see it & our discussion would be legally binding...I'm not interested in that. I was trying to give you knowledge to help you answer your question...that is all

                But Social Security is optional from its inception through today...they just don't make it public knowledge, which I think is lying...but, not legally.
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  • Posted by RonC 4 years, 11 months ago
    GaryL, what you say is true about paying from every paycheck. I noticed last night, in Senator Paul's tax plan he would collect a "fair and flat" tax from all and eliminate payroll taxes. My take on that is a generation down the road no one will be able to say they paid into this for a lifetime. For me, this exposes a deep believe in government that owns and controls everyone and every thing. Even the most libertarian candidate has trouble understand personal property vs. government property.

    Once government pivots away from you paying in for a lifetime...they will be fully able to decide what our "entitlement" will be.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 4 years, 11 months ago
    you have earned it, as I have and many others have;;;
    relax, enjoy and vote for a better U.S., Gary -- that's
    my advice, and Welcome To The Gulch, IMHO. -- john
    .
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  • Posted by wiggys 4 years, 11 months ago
    since the "gulch" was in reality Telluride Colorado you would be welcome because it has available all of the things you like to do hunt, fish and hike.
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