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  • Posted by VetteGuy 3 years, 6 months ago
    Finding like minded people to bounce stuff off. Before I found this online Gulch, I began to think there must be something wrong with ME, to be the only one who thinks this way (with logic, rather than emotions). After a while I realized that there are others out there, but most keep it to themselves in public, to avoid the browbeating (you selfish, heartless, emotionless creep!).
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    • Posted by term2 3 years, 6 months ago
      I totally agree with this. When I am surrounded by inconsistently socialist people it just gets depressing. Every so often I meet someone who brings up "Who is John Galt", and its like a breath of fresh air.
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      • Posted by broskjold22 3 years, 6 months ago
        I recently told a friend why religionists are wrong and I would not support them philosophically. To which he replied that's why religion is separate from philosophy. I had to describe to him the difference between religious and religionist, why the two are separate from each other, the one being a belief system and the other being a belief system imposed politically. It takes a special kind of friend who is willing to listen to reason. We all need more of those in our life.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks VetteGuy. Glad you found some kindred souls here! Let me ask, is this online community enough for you or have you tried looking for a local group too? Or somehow finding people near you?
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      • Posted by VetteGuy 3 years, 6 months ago
        I wouldn't mind getting together occasionally with a small group of like-minded Objectivist-oriented people, and it has been suggested to me that I should set something like that up, possibly at a local restaurant.

        However, I don't crave a lot of social contact. I'm not on Facebook (I guess this is my substitute). I work from home, and for the most part, don't miss the office environment. I do have a couple of friends from the old job that I meet for lunch about once a month, so I'm not a complete hermit. But I could be without much encouragement ;-)
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        • Posted by broskjold22 3 years, 6 months ago
          VetteGuy, to be honest, I would not mind your lifestyle either. But it is important that you know there are outlets for like-minded individuals to come together and discuss the issues. For example, Facebook has an Atlas Shrugged page which regularly posts quotes from Ayn Rand and other Objectivists where comments can be left. It is public, obviously, so you will see "irrationalisms" such as "Ayn Rand is a selfish [expletive]" and others. But you will also find that there is a certain energy in opposing those views publicly. Not to shout and swear at each other, but to oppose that which is opposed to rationality. For me, at least, it is worth the effort. Finally, not being "social" is fine, so long as you are not subverting or suppressing a desire to be so. I am not particularly social, and I know why when less-than-rational friends of mine watch and applaud stupid themes and policies in art and politics.
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  • Posted by RonJohnson 3 years, 6 months ago
    Figuring out how to separate myself from the immoral system all around me without becoming a hermit.
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    • Posted by term2 3 years, 6 months ago
      I think we should start to move into areas close to each other, trade with each other wherever possible, and try to insulate ourselves from the socialism that is so rampant.
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      • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
        Thanks for the suggestion. I agree! But you know we don't have to be limited by geography any more for much of our commerce. We have the marketplace here. And a few years ago I built and launched a website that aimed to be the primary hub for Objectivist-friendly businesses that had e-commerce capability. Perhaps it was too early then. Changing buying habits takes effort, but perhaps there are enough of us to create a robust, critical mass now. Thoughts, anyone?
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      • Posted by liberty1 3 years, 5 months ago
        Term2, I am working on that. I call it Liberty Districts. It is centered on libertarianism, but seeks diversity. The group is inactive, but if you sign up, I will keep you updated on developments. To join: libertydistricts-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        Bobby
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 3 years, 6 months ago
      Ron,

      You figure it out be sure to let us know. I have all but become a hermit except for work (which I have to deal with people there) and moved to activities that involve family a few friends that can be rational at times.

      After a year or two i find myself on the roller coaster of trying to get people to understand for 4 or 5 years and then I get sick of it again.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer RonJohnson. Let me dig a little more on this. Is it your job/business, your daily life, or geographic separation perhaps?
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      • Posted by RonJohnson 3 years, 6 months ago
        The separation I'm looking for is legal, financial, moral. For example, I hope to retire by the time I'm 70, but I don't want to participate in the S.S. system. I work for a company that a few times a year takes some large orders from county and city governments, but I don't want to be on the receiving end of tax money. I don't want to be beholden to the county or state for the roads I drive on, especially knowing that gas taxes do not cover the entire cost of upkeep. I don't want to be the receiver of any special consideration just because I am over 40, yet I suspect I am being treated differently.

        See what I mean? Everything we touch is tainted. I've minimized it in my own life, but I can't eradicate it. Short of cutting off all contact with the outside world and living as a self-supporting hermit, I am subject to the undeserved costs and unearned benefits of living under a socialist government.

        I have resolved to never take any money directly from a government, and to always take the private option over the public option if that is available. So, no subsidized Obamacare, no government loans, etc.
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        • Posted by  $  CBJ 3 years, 6 months ago
          Having paid taxes for over 50 years, I take the opposite view and accept any "benefit" the government offers. If I don't, the money will simply flow to those who support the current system. Ayn Rand addressed the issue brilliantly in "“The Question of Scholarships,” The Objectivist, June, 1966, page 11.
          http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/gov...
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          • Posted by RonJohnson 3 years, 6 months ago
            I understand the argument, and I honor your choice. It is not mine. The way I look at it, any money I paid to the government is gone, spent, wasted, deceased. My wealth, once confiscated and dispersed, is gone forever. If I take any current payments from government, it will be paid for by current taxpayers....like my son, and my nephew, and my niece...and that is a moral burden I do not wish to bear.
            How long I can be independent is yet to be seen. Ideally I will stay healthy and work like hell, relying on no one, then keel over.
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 3 years, 6 months ago
    If I'm to be honest, my biggest #1 challenge is overcoming a lifetime of collectivist looter brainwashing. This included parents who thought that business profit is immoral, a history teacher who taught how capitalists love war because of its economic stimulus effects, and numerous governments who have gained their votes by pandering to looter mentality.

    Almost as great a challenge is what others here have already mentioned - dealing with dimwits around them.
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    • Posted by broskjold22 3 years, 6 months ago
      That stinks, David. But Yaron Brook, the executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute, grew up with socialist parents. Imagine becoming a finance lecturer and then one of the biggest Objectivists of our time after that kind of upbringing! It isn't easy, but every time you choose to be rational over collectivist, you are making it that much easier for the next choice to be the right one too.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your honest answer David. The forces of evil acting against us are real and prevalent, no doubt! But I have learned what it takes to overcome it and so have other "average" people too. Have you taken any steps or actions to overcome this challenge? (Other than joining this gulch online, which is definitely a step in the right direction). Thanks for more discussion!
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      • Posted by davidmcnab 3 years, 6 months ago
        I've taken numerous steps to overcome this issue. I've read AS and TF several times. I'm one semester away from graduating with a business degree in enterprise development (although that university was a bit left-leaning).

        Where I struggle is in the formulation of entrepreneurial ideas and plans for bringing these into fruition. Too many years of working as a wage slave, and surrounded by too many non-businesspeople.
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        • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
          Thanks David. We need to talk more! And directly. You can overcome your past brainwashing, and the desire to do something entrepreneurial is a great motivation to make it happen. I would like to share and discuss some powerful and effective tools that have done great things for me. Can you message me directly here? If not, are you on Twitter?
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          • Posted by davidmcnab 3 years, 6 months ago
            Hi Brett, thanks for reaching out.

            I don't have 'producer' access on this site, so it won't let me message you. I don't have Twitter either, but would be happy to create an account, or if there are any admins or Producer-level folks here, I could pass my email address on to them to forward to you.
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            • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
              Ok David, me either, yet on the Producer level. Please go to my main bio here and go to the first website link. That website has a Contact Me option in the top menu. Use that, ok? Thanks!
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  • Posted by  $  allosaur 3 years, 6 months ago
    Listening to a libtard attempt to reason (most recently about why sanctuary cities are a good thing and really do have la-la land less violence) on "fair and balanced" Fox News.
    It is less challenging for my blood pressure to pick up the remote and go channel-surfing than to roar at the TV like a dino with rabies.
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 3 years, 6 months ago
    Living with an aging parent who has a lot of important knowledge about how to live in the physical realm BUT has absolutely no ability to see the destructive patterns of himself and others that have led him to being dependent upon me.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer, Teri I presume. That's a tough situation. I can relate, because I have a very irrational (and stubborn) older relative too. I will try to come back here with something that might help us both!
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  • Posted by  $  MikeMarotta 3 years, 6 months ago
    Generally, I never had a problem. Specifically, yes, as I read these books as a teenager, it was a challenge figuring everything out, just how to live, what kinds of jobs to pursue, etc. Through all of that, especially in the early years, Objectivism was a set of known truths. On my blog, NecessaryFacts, I write about "The First Dagny" and "Dagny Two Point Oh." Having grown up in Cleveland ("Autobiography of a Worker") living in an Ayn Rand novel came rather easily to me. And it was a time of changes for everyone, the revolutions of the sixties, the founding of the Libertarian Party, the runaway inflation (and the Hunt Brothers bust), and then the coming of the Reagan Revolution with the Me Generation, yuppies, the computer revolution. It all pretty much played out as expected.

    In my personal life, it was easy enough to find two wives (at different times) who read Ayn Rand's novels. Raising our daughter (2nd marriage), I relied on books that I knew from the Objectivist Newsletter 15 years before, such as How to Raise a Brighter Child and The Tyranny of Testing.

    Overall, what I got from AR's novels generally and non-fiction in particular was the strength of my convictions. It is pretty easy to walk away from a bad deal, and even easier to throw my full support behind a good plan.

    Allow me to recommend How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne. He was deeply influenced by Ayn Rand, though his presentation of his ideas is his own. His thesis is that we allow ourselves to be trapped by unquestioned assumptions. One of them is that the government is powerful enough to stop you from living your life by your own standards. Another is that you must join big causes to be involved in burning issues of the day. A third is that financial independence is impossible, especially in our mixed (and now collapsing) economy.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer Mike! Wow, great to have the short story of your impressive background. I'm going to check out your blog right after I reply here. I also grew up in Cleveland! From 1980-1988 (when I went to college). You had an earlier start than me I can tell. ;-)
      You are the 2nd person here to recommend Browne's book. That's an interesting early trend here. Thanks again for your answer! Would you say you successfully found freedom in an unfree world?
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  • Posted by  $  nickursis 3 years, 6 months ago
    I would say the biggest challenge is trying to get around the great government involvement in everything. It makes it very difficult to just do your own thing, and not bother anyone, as they have this nasty habit of intruding into everything. That also has fed into the self justification thing, where people believe it is ok to impose their own behavior onto you and then requiring you to approve and allow it, and even celebrate it.
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    • Posted by RonJohnson 3 years, 6 months ago
      I posted my comment, then noticed your comment right above mine. Yes, that is the hardest thing...how do we avoid the government interventions that penalize us or give us undeserved benefits.
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      • Posted by term2 3 years, 6 months ago
        What makes government dangerous is the money they have and are allowed to collect. We all should try to reduce the amount they get. Fight all new taxes, and try personally to reduce the amount you pay each year. Sales taxes, property taxes, and the other hundreds of taxes they collect.
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        • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 6 months ago
          If I may. Big results are often made of small steps. It has to do with overpaying payroll deductions. Many like to get money back as if it's a savings account. Instead it's a losing account. I miss the mark sometimes but this year I was within $100 which occasioned one additonal check.Through the mail not direct from the account.

          Owing ;a bit is better than receiving a refund as it is up to sixteen or so months - no less than four of devalued money.that you are paying. As a refund it's devalued money they are refunding without benefit of interest.A mere pinpric but $100 times the amount of tax returns let's assume 200,000,000 is $200,000,000,000.00. two hundred billion in devalued buying power dollars. Where as you had the use of the money at a higher buying power rate .Small amount but significant.

          In essence under the system they are giving your their money then demanding it back. Why not make maximum use of it and deny them masimum use of the amount.

          Look for similar loopholes and please! Feel fre to stick it to them - legally. It's their rules not ours.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer Nick. This is a common and popular sentiment. I get the money issue, as term2 says below. But let me dig into this more with you please. Can you give us a specific example or story?
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      • Posted by  $  nickursis 3 years, 6 months ago
        We had a guy next door who crammed 250 alpacas onto 3 acres and never picked up any manuer. They had ecolis running off the property, and down the common roadway. The nitric acid in the rain water from the manuer ate the road away, the smell was terrible, and the State refused to do anything about it, as it was too small to worry about. But a dairy with money? That was a different story. When I proved the guy had lied and lied in his Bankruptcy statements, I chased after the Federal attorney in Eugene, OR who told me the perjury was there, but it was too small a case to prosecute. When I asked him"Now that you have defined small perjury, what constitutes big perjury?" he hung up. Law is just a tool for the political monsters to use against those they want to persecute, look at the article I posted where Judicial Watch has documents showing the IRS and FBI conspired to file false charges against the people the IRS was screwing with, and there are many cases of a similar nature that did go beyond that, Gibson Guitars is one of them. Much of government today exists only to be manipulated by the in power party to destroy their enemies, or those that do not "comply", much like 1984. The sad thing is the bulk of America is completely unaware of it, just as long as they can do their own little thing.
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        • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
          Thanks Nick. Infuriating!
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          • Posted by  $  nickursis 3 years, 6 months ago
            You are welcome, it was indeed, and is still going on. We are in the process of chasing them for the 132K the judge awarded use of "not having a nuisance" but the "not nuisance" caused us "dimunition in value and pain and suffering" for an award of 132K. Evidently the county commissioner statement to me of "You can do anything you want on a farm" in Polk County, meant "You can do anything" and the judge was told to make it so. Made no sense whatsoever....
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  • Posted by  $  Zero 3 years, 6 months ago
    I was an OBJ before I read AR. I apply it very easily to every part of my life except one.
    I don't really believe in myself enough to pursue any great ambitions.
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    • Posted by  $  AJAshinoff 3 years, 6 months ago
      I'm not sure of your age in relation to mine (soon to be 48) but I need to tell you TRY EVERYTHING, reach for the stars as often as you wish, fail and succeed as often as you have the heart to. I'm no raging success in life but I've met some milestones people told me I couldn't/wouldn't and I'm still chasing dreams/goals (my wife don't get it). If I died tomorrow I'm content.

      I'm not trying to talk down to you, but life's too short to doubt yourself to the point of never attempting to achieve. You only get one go (unless the Hindu's are right but you may come back as a flea (where's the fun in that). :)

      And now for gratuitous inspirational music (remember I'm 47): https://youtu.be/Lf6ao8cvyoU
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      • Posted by term2 3 years, 6 months ago
        I agree totally. The way I do this is to pursue my interests until I find I waste too much time on fighting government intrusions. I then move on to areas the government hasnt gotten powerful in. For example, I built ONE house in my lifetime, and that was enough. I will never do that again and have to spend hours and hours and $$ dealing with bureaucrats. I used to invent medical equipment and made good money at it until the FDA took over regulating medical devices. I sold my business and moved on to off-road equipment that isnt YET regulated.
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        • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
          That is fascinating, and encouraging. Thanks for the personal examples! I have a friend in the off road customization product development business. Maybe you want to connect with him? Unless he's a competitor...let me know.
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          • Posted by term2 3 years, 6 months ago
            I do inventing of mechanical and electrical devices. Currently working on LED lighting for off road uses. WE actually manufacture here in the USA currently.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your honest answer here Zero. You can see that others want to give you encouragement or help, and I do too!
      If it happened to be true that you would succeed eventually, even after lots of learning and struggle, do you know what type of subject or thing you would want to pursue? Let's talk about that.
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    • Posted by tdechaine 3 years, 6 months ago
      I'm surprised that reading AR did not help you overcome that. There is more for you to apply. You might want to read some good psychology. And then as AJ said, be more aggressive in pursuing goals. And being more socially active might help.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 3 years, 6 months ago
    It's the same today as it's been for well over 1/2 century. Daily encounters with those that can't or won't comprehend the reality of the world around them and the others that they share this life with; and watching the effects on the world I live in.

    Good post. +1
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  • Posted by  $  sjatkins 3 years, 6 months ago
    I guess it would be finding people that take philosophical ideas seriously. Even among the best people in my life most think I am on some bender when I attempt to present a philosophical basis for individual rights and freedom or explain exactly why I am against some things they mostly accept and why I am so strongly against them.

    I have people in my life that are pro-freedom and are productive and highly moral people but they are in my eyes operating totally without a net. And some of them have huge gaps where they assume some ideas or people are alright to bring into their life where I see glaring contradictions and dangers from doing so.

    It is a challenge to find even objectivist friends who are not so busy looking for an excuse to cast judgment that they seemingly can't have an honest and far reaching philosophical discussion.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Very interesting, thanks for your answer! I can tell you are picky, but in a good way. :-)
      I hope you find many people here in the online Gulch who are positive and also "grounded" with a strong net. Hopefully I'll be one of them...and if you want to find more people local to you I hope you find them through this community too. (That isn't me currently, I see from your profile.)
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  • Posted by broskjold22 3 years, 6 months ago
    Brett, great post. The biggest challenge in applying Objectivism for me is not becoming emotional when people accuse me of being "extremist" or a crack pot. I am outspoken against the philosophic underpinnings of the Dems and the GOP, but find that I am treated as a traitor when I do not support certain GOP actions on the basis that the reason was not valid. I fight against what I call religionists, those who want to implement religion politically or who believe religion is the basis for politics. "Morality comes from the Bible", etc. My GOP friends then accuse me of being anti-religion or implementing my ideals instead of theirs. The intrinsicist argument that religiosity holds as fundamental has to be the most frustrating and biggest challenge for me.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer Benjamin! And I'm happy you like my question! :-)
      When I was a young and new Objectivist, religion was my hot button in a big way. And I was good at activating religious people's hot buttons too...the highlight was when someone set a paper on my door on fire (in the dorm). I've since learned to project myself differently...anyway, I know your challenge! Thanks again for sharing it. If you are willing to continue discussing what you've tried and how it's worked (or not), that would be great and appreciated. Probably a good standalone question or topic however.
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  • Posted by  $  MikeMarotta 3 years, 6 months ago
    I thought about this some more and I realized that I do have a continuing problem determining selling out from compromise. I am fully aware of the essay "Doesn't Life Require Compromise?" from The Virtue of Selfishness.

    The problem is that on the one hand, a good merchant does not argue religion with his customer. If someone offers something you that want at a price that you are willing to pay, then no other consideration is relevant. On the other hand, the message of Atlas Shrugged is that we do not support our destroyers. If someone's religion (literal or figurative) is contrary to your values, you gain nothing from doing business with them.

    I go back and forth on this all time.
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    • Posted by  $  sjatkins 3 years, 6 months ago
      I don't think the position is true that we gain nothing from dealing with those that have different opinions than us. Not all such people are actually actively attempting to destroy us or calling for others to do so. Many are simply mistaken, including about some pretty fundamental things needed to even honestly see and correct their mistake.

      As long as a trade with someone doesn't involve putting up more in the trade than we are receiving, for instance giving up a really important value more important than what we are receiving, the trade is rational. Or to put it another way, if the trade doesn't involve actual sacrifice of a greater value for a lesser one or a non-value then to trade is rational.
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  • Posted by  $  Flootus5 3 years, 6 months ago
    Well, this a very timely question. After 16 months of working on our gold property in Northern Nevada, we find it is subject to a regulatory takings with the sage grouse FEIS.

    After working for the biggies for 30 years in the gold mining industry, this property was the chance of a lifetime. For a very small group of us, it was like our entire careers had led to this.

    We were on the cusp in late May of raising several million dollars to test drill, and develop a mineral resource. The potential was fantastic. And then in the swoop of drawing a boundary line, federal agency bureaucrats changed the maps from low value habitat to priority habitat and recommending an historic mining district for locatable mineral withdrawal. This effectively cutoff any financing due to investment risk.

    I am so angry, I cannot be anything approaching objective. The thoughts drift to the realm of retaliation - miners have lots of ordinance and explosives - but don't worry, no, I won't be on the news one evening. I can just see the fair and balanced treatment I would get.

    So, what does objectivism have to contribute here? I am wide open to suggestions.
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    • Posted by ewv 3 years, 6 months ago
      Flootus5: "Well, this a very timely question. After 16 months of working on our gold property in Northern Nevada, we find it is subject to a regulatory takings with the sage grouse FEIS... I am wide open to suggestions."

      Contact the Pacific Legal Foundation for advice. PLF is a "public interest law" organization that specializes in defending private property rights in the courts and setting precedents.
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      • Posted by  $  Flootus5 3 years, 6 months ago
        Good advice. I am aware of the Pacific Legal Foundation. Being familiar with numerous cases like this (Hage vs US, for example), I know they can drag out for years, even if done pro bono.

        Our situation is unraveling so fast, I think it will be a case of the old mining adage of "Deep Enough". The old context used to mean that there was usually too much dead rock that had to be moved that resources were spent.

        Nowadays, it appears that the government agencies have created so much "overburden" that resources are all too exhaustible.
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    • Posted by philosophercat 3 years, 6 months ago
      If permitting is a problem with BOR or BLM or USFS or USACE I may have information of use to you. I have looked at N'Wstern Nv in the past. I was brought in by the USFS to help with permitting the 7-Up Pete mine in Lincoln Mt. I developed a system for permitting that solved both environmental and financing issues. That was when gold was 300+/-$ an ounce and costs were tight. If you have control of land I might be able to help. I worked with all the federal land agencies and most of the Western States. If interested send me a contact.
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    • Posted by  $  jlc 3 years, 6 months ago
      What objectivism has to offer you, Flootus, is the ability to externalize the failure. You do not have to fall prey to the thought that you were 'doing something wrong'.

      Many people blame 'others' for their own shortcomings, but you can validly say, "I had a good shot at a terrific enterprise, but my chance to excel was legislated out of existence by sage grouse regs."

      Pretty slim, eh? It is all I can offer.

      Government intervention may destroy the rest of the healthcare industry at any given moment...which would take Wm's and my company down. We all live on sufferance, at the government's whim.

      Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

      Jan
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      • Posted by  $  Flootus5 3 years, 6 months ago
        Interesting. The rational mind has already concluded that a regulatory takings has occurred.

        It is the gut side that is struggling to come to grips with any rationally developed viewpoint here. Anger, frustration, disappointment, disbelief intertwine with the objective mind. Since we are not Spock like creatures the exercise of integrating these sides of being human is an interesting endeavor.

        Maybe it comes under the heading of don't get mad, get even. Because of the extent of the impact of what they are doing, and the blatant illegality of what they pulled, we fully expect this to produce a whopper of a lawsuit coming from the likes of AEMA (American Exploration and Mining Association) and others. I'd be glad to testify to the technical gerrymandering the agencies engaged in. I have it all documented with maps.
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    • Posted by term2 3 years, 6 months ago
      To succeed in this atmosphere I think one has to hide in plain sight, and avoid opportunities that require a lot of investment that keeps you from dodging and weaving when the government does something like happened to you. I had a medical equipment business that I was fortunate to be able to sell it before the FDA became too powerful at regulating. Now I make off road accessories with minimal investment and reliance on chinese imports where THEY have the investments in equipment. The government is our biggest danger at this point.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Wow, this sounds like a bad scenario Rootus5. I can think of worse, however. If you did take self-destructive action.
      Perhaps it isn't Objectivism but unconventional military warfare strategy you need. Have you thought about using press and independent media to help your cause? I'm serious. I have a specific lead for you. Sharing and asking for help with your story among objectivist, libertarian, and free market channels should be a real consideration for you in my humble opinion. You can't fight an enemy with their favored tools and strategies. You need to use other means that exploit their weaknesses.
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      • Posted by  $  Flootus5 3 years, 6 months ago
        We have been engaged in the War on the West for decades now. Hence, the sagebrush rebellion heats up about every 15-20 years.

        20 years ago, I began a book about the history of the public lands. It's called "The Sagebrush Rebellion, An American History of the Public Lands". I lost momentum when the Son of Sage Rebellion of the mid-90's fell apart on rigged federal court decisions. (Nye County, amongst others)

        I am of a mind to dust it off, and bring it into the 21st Century. It is a huge undertaking.
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        • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
          Hmm, you obviously know a lot more about that than me. But I'm thinking about Cliven Bundy's standoff with the BLM recently, and the Oath Keepers who assembled from all around the country to help him. Familiar with that situation?
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          • Posted by  $  Flootus5 3 years, 6 months ago
            I have personally met Cliven a couple of times. But, it has been quite some time since. We met individually during the Jefferson Canyon road opening event that led to the Nye County lawsuit. And then I was introduced to him by some key rebellion players at a NACO meeting in Fallon.

            It was in Jefferson Canyon, tho, on that eventful day on July 4th, 1994 that he impressed me the most in a small but key way. The big events of the day ( a huge story in itself, that I address in the book) were over. It was hot. A lot of people were sitting in the shade of the now "evil" Pinyon-Juniper Forest trees just gabbing away. I heard Cliven nearby telling another rancher that he would like to buy a copy of his VHS footage of the days events. My immediate thought was: He did not just say "Can I get a copy?". He said "Can I buy a copy?" He knows the value of trade and of giving value for value. That has stuck with me all these years.

            I have all of my own footage of the events of that day on VHS. I must get them into digital.
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            • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
              Wow, thanks for the unique account! There is a compelling and news-friendly story happening with you now, I believe. Fighting back with independent media is something to consider. Hell of a lot easier and better now than copying VHS tapes!
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              • Posted by  $  Flootus5 3 years, 6 months ago
                I and some others in touch with Cliven have said that some of those experiences back in the 90's have helped prep him for the recent events. As usual, there is so much more to the story than the media provides - even some of the alternative media.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 3 years, 6 months ago
    As one who has been an Objectivist for more than 50 years (yeah, I’m old), probably the system I recommend is a “modified Galt” as suggested by the late Harry Browne. Browne was not an Objectivist, but he figured out some things pretty well. “Freedom,” Browne points out, “is the opportunity to live your life as you want to live it." This is a definition I think most of us can agree with.

    “The plans, the movements, the crusades — none of these things has worked. And so the unfree person continues to dream, to condemn, and to remain where he is.

    “You can be free without changing the world. You can live your life as you want to live it — no matter what others decide to do with their lives."

    Browne, Harry (2014-07-22). How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World (Kindle Locations 219-237). Kindle Edition.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer Esceptico! I like your perspective and recommendation a lot. I believe we need more of this. I've also found that the individual person has a lot more autonomy, flexibility, and range of options today than most people realize. But it's different than in prior years, and takes creativity and innovation to take advantage of it. This could be a good thread to follow up on.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 3 years, 6 months ago
    Getting people to stop bothering me with their nonsense. As I get older, I find I have less tolerance for idiots and their agendas. What I regret is that I have many people with whom I communicate who are not idiots but whose basic premises are skewed and screwed. I am beginning to lose my patience with them as well. Pretty soon the only people I'll tolerate to communicate with will be certain members of my family and Gulchers.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your reply Herb. As I've asked from some others here, can we please have a specific example or story from you? I'm sure you have one at least. :-) Thanks! How you handled it would be great to learn too.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 3 years, 6 months ago
        My favorite story is not going to be much help, because the level of stupidity was so great that nothing could penetrate it. However, it is a good example of how low people, college students yet, can go. When I was in college, just after the stone age, in a general discussion about the oddities one has encountered in life, a fellow from a southern state mentioned that opossums had sex through their noses.I, of course, told him he was nuts and 'possums did the nasty the same as us. An argument ensued and a $5 bet was made. ($5 in those days being a valuable as $20or more today). We agreed to bring our proof to the Student Center in one week. I went to a professor of biology who wrote a one page description of how opossums had sex, The next week, I met with my adversary and showed him my proof. He showed me his proof, which was three other guys who also testified that they saw the nose copulation. Proving that just because you say it's so, doen't make it so. After much arguing, we decided to call it a draw, and I resolved never to get involved in an argument with anyone proclaiming anything that stupid.
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    • Posted by term2 3 years, 6 months ago
      We should consider moving into certain areas of the country, and hiding in plain sight and enjoying the benefits of living with like minded people such as are on this forum.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 3 years, 6 months ago
    The hardest thing I find is identifying the value someone else holds that depends on the rationality in the culture. My favorite right now is grand kids. I say that if I am right your grand kids will have a wonderful life and if you are right they will live under ISIS or a Putin. I never let them assume that their values will lead to a good outcome. Since there are plenty of examples of their values in practice they are on the defensive. I then have the burden of proof that my values will produce good results. It a burden I happily assume.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer, philosophercat. I would appreciate some clarification, however, because you lost me. Are you talking about a debate technique to try and get them to question their premises? Thanks for some elaboration or trying to give your challenge with some other words.
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      • Posted by philosophercat 3 years, 6 months ago
        Brett, you are right it is a technique for finding a value in common with someone so I don't have to just butt heads. I try to find something a person holds as a value which is rational and put that value in contrast with their other values which contradict it. It is even more effective if you can find a value that is loved by both of us and rationally defensible. Grand kids are a good example. Hunt through what the person you are talking to loves, share that mutual feeling and as a trader sharing values build on that to show how other values they hold are putting the shared value at risk. When I used to do planning board presentations they did not usually did not want the proposed project so I learned how to show they should want the project by showing how it would achieve in reality some value they held about their community. The key is you have to be believable as a valuing person. That by its nature is affirmative and non-threatening so it helps others to open up and admit what they love.

        I have talked to lots of teachers and we share a love a bright happy curious kids. Then the discussion is how can we get them through the school system without becoming brain dead. I make a passionate plea for training in reason through the classic Quadrivium and Trivium as giving the kids the sense of command of their own minds. A debate with both parties agreeing on the goal as a flourishing child is a debate on means not ends which is much better. Let me know if I have been obscure or missed something.
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        • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
          Thanks, much better for me! And it sounds like you have become an excellent communicator and negotiator! Reminds me of several tips from Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends..." and other strategies from negotiating and influencing books I've read. There have been some courses and lectures on how Objectivists can be more effective communicators. Maybe we need to pull something out of you on that topic. ;-) Ever thought of doing something along those lines?
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          • Posted by philosophercat 3 years, 6 months ago
            BRS I have not thought about it but have come close. I am in the process of founding a philosophy research company which has as one of its products an integrated science program for high school students. We ran a beta test at a local high school and it was excellent. See Piekoff;s the Dim Hypothesis for the need for integration. The main work of the Lab is the integration of science and philosophy. Lots of marketable products in a time of disintegration.

            Your idea is interesting and it fits with our purpose of using the wonder of seeing how it all fits to remove the barriers to grasping Objectivism. Follow up if you are interested.
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            • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
              Thanks for more info Bill. I just read your first intro post to learn more about you. Excellent and interesting to me! I'm an aerospace engineer as my first career, and later have been drawn into STEM education and the need for serious innovation there.
              But I'm equally intrigued by your brief intro about developing products from Objectivism and the role of marketing. That's where we were going here. Let me know if we can chat in realtime. Would be my privilege. Thanks!
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  • Posted by cksawyer 3 years, 6 months ago
    Great question! Thanks for asking it.

    I have found - through research, personal experienceand indirect experience working with my executive coaching clients over 15 years that developing a deep, meaningful and practically powerful spirituality and set of spritual disciplines tremendously raises the bar my performance, fulfillment, resilience and overall capacity to live larger and more successfully.

    How to do this on a secular basis, without the involvement of mysticism or supernaturalism has been my single biggest challenge in integrating Objectivist principles in my life.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your unique answer, CK! Hope I can call you that. I checked out your profile here and think I have a new friend and relative neighbor! :-) You have a new fan at least.
      Would you mind sharing more on what you have done so far, and how well it worked (or didn't)? Perhaps it's worth a new question to the Gulch here. If you ask it I'll definitely participate in the discussion. Thanks again for your answer!
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      • Posted by cksawyer 3 years, 6 months ago
        Hi Brett. Sorry for the delay. I wanted to wait to have time to more thoughtfully respond...; however, such time has been exceeding elusive lately. So to heck with more thoughtfully!

        Thanks for the great message and the kind declaration of fanhood. Ha!.

        You say "relative neighbor". Are you in Texas? Houston?

        Let's continue the conversation by email, then we can decide if we want to bring it back to the Gulch, and if so, how and in what form?

        kimsawyer@theWealthSource.com
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  • Posted by Timewaster 3 years, 6 months ago
    My bride and have Dagny's issue letting go of the fight. Knowing how we think it should be. And the massive wave of bodies we fight for what we know to be what is right. We just can not just go on strike.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 3 years, 6 months ago
    Trying to live without violating my convictions. I had long thought that it would be wrong to go on
    Social Security, as the money I had paid in was
    gone. They cut people in the plant where I worked,
    and I was sent away last October. And I have tried and tried and tried to get a job. (I also have
    tried to avoid stores, at least running the cash
    register, as stores sell so much Communist
    crap).( There are jobs I could get, if I didn't have
    epilepsy and could drive a car;a landscaping
    job I was turned down for, for instance.But I
    would have had to drive a dirt-pushing machine,
    and I was told it wouldn't do. And obviously, I
    can't drive a cab). My brother pushed the idea
    of going to to Salvation Army for help, but I
    would starve first. (Not that I have started to
    starve yet; but who knows?) One gets into
    very embarrassing difficulties.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer LibertyBelle. Sounds like you are getting into an existential dilemma. Have you thought of work and value you can create from home? Sounds like driving is a major constraint. I'm curious in case we can help you arrive at some creative options here.
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  • Posted by Abaco 3 years, 6 months ago
    Statism.

    Statism is the first ailment that hypocrites are inflicted with. So, I deal with it among others who call themselves Objectivists. I deal with it in the evening news every damn night. I deal with it from all angles. Big government is here to stay because, deep down, that's what almost everybody really wants.

    I should elaborate. Many of my friends who call themselves "conservatives" really want big government. They actually like seeing people dressed in costumes using force. They speak of smaller government, yet are very eager to make some key exceptions.

    In short - we are a nation, a society of sheep. I don't fit in.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks for your answer Abaco. Yes, there are plenty of sheeple around us. But there's a healthy number of us still who aren't! I find it getting harder to identify and challenge and resist all of the statist acts and premises in our world because there is just so damn many of them. But I'm happy to be in this online gulch because I fit in here. Even staunch individualists benefit from social support and interaction. So I feel your struggle, but let's appreciate the numbers and connections we have here.
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