What will you sacrifice to Shrug?
Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 1 month ago to Culture
We have had a few discussions and even some planning on creating one or more Gulches for ourselves.
The undiscussed side of this is a basic issue....Technology.
A high technology lifestyle requires a high technology infrastructure and technology base.
Most if not all of us would not be looking for subsistence living without all the conveniences we are used to, but we would sacrifice some of them.
What will you give up?
Modern plumbing?
Running Water?
24/7 unlimited electricity?
Modern communications?
Amazon?
Atlas shrugged was a novel projecting from the technology base of the 40s and early 50s.
What time period would you be willing to roll back to in your gulch?
Keeping in mind the infrastructure needed to support it
The undiscussed side of this is a basic issue....Technology.
A high technology lifestyle requires a high technology infrastructure and technology base.
Most if not all of us would not be looking for subsistence living without all the conveniences we are used to, but we would sacrifice some of them.
What will you give up?
Modern plumbing?
Running Water?
24/7 unlimited electricity?
Modern communications?
Amazon?
Atlas shrugged was a novel projecting from the technology base of the 40s and early 50s.
What time period would you be willing to roll back to in your gulch?
Keeping in mind the infrastructure needed to support it
How much isolation can there be then though?
The concept of a Gulch is a compelling one. Implementation for us will not be as clean as AS was.
1. Supports your desired life style
2. Supports your future goals
3. Removes you from the parts of current society you dislike the most.
Part of the lifestyle I desire anyway :)
Plumbing - easy... whether or not the discharge is as pure as the driven snow is one thing, but drain fields have been used in rural areas for a hundred years or more...
Power - solar/wind already works fine for off-grid living, maybe some minor generator inputs, depending on the climate. Designing the town to be energy efficient is a big key - only use LED lighting or candle/flame, no electric appliances - stick to propane or nat-gas or wood heat, etc.
Picking the location and climate is really more important... for example, in a mediterranean location (rare I know for a project like this), heating and A/C become irrelevant, but the long-term savings in infrastructure is pretty substantial.
Equally important would be a town-wide cyber privacy/protection to avoid IRS/governmental prying eyes. This is pretty simple, it just has to be non-standard / non-commercial. "Store-bought" stuff is compromised at the source (by the NSA), customized open source would be a quick & relatively protected method.
I rebuilt my own house over the last few years specifically for efficiency and something close to off-grid (I have a grid-tie, but I could easily be off-grid, but that last 10% gets expensive). New plumbing - PEX with push/fit made the plumbing in the 1970s rancher better than new. Heating - went from 70% efficiency to 97.5%, I don't even need a metal flue, it just uses PVC because the heat output is only at about 80 degrees going out the top. Electrical is down 90% between solar panels, 100% LED, switched from electric to gas wherever I could.
Most of the things it takes to do this are pretty readily available and even easier if the structures are very modest (I was fighting against a 2400 sq foot single story with vaulted/chalet roof and 57 windows). Keep it to a simple cabin and I wouldn't need any external connections.
The only challenge is the propane or natural gas, you need to bring that in somehow, it would be the one thing that is very difficult. You can use wood for a lot of stuff, but creates its own challenges (hard to miss all the trees being cut down and you lose your natural beauty and cover).
Consider the following from her Playboy interview:
PLAYBOY: Throughout your work you argue that the way in which the contemporary world is organized, even in the capitalist countries, submerges the individual and stifles initiative. In Atlas Shrugged, John Galt leads a strike of the men of the mind -- which results in the collapse of the collectivist society around them. Do you think the time has come for the artists, intellectuals and creative businessmen of today to withdraw their talents from society in this way?
RAND: No, not yet. But before I explain, I must correct one part of your question. What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy -- that is, a mixture of freedom and controls, which, by the presently dominant trend, is moving toward dictatorship. The action in Atlas Shrugged takes place at a time when society has reached the stage of dictatorship. When and if this happens, that will be the time to go on strike, but not until then.
[...]
RAND: A dictatorship has four characteristics: one-party rule, executions without trial for political offenses, expropriation or nationalization of private property, and censorship. Above all, this last. So long as men can speak and write freely, so long as there is no censorship, they still have a chance to reform their society or to put it on a better road. When censorship is imposed, that is the sign that men should go on strike intellectually, by which I mean, should not cooperate with the social system in any way whatever.
http://www.ellensplace.net/ar_pboy.html
As bad as things might be, they aren't that bad yet.
1. One party rule - The two parties talk a good game about their differences. However on the output side where the rest of us live, the effects are the same....more and more intrusive government, larger government, more taxes taken, ever expanding "social programs" that effectively mean whatever problem is never corrected, but instead becomes frozen in time to maintain the status quo.
2. Executions without trial for political offenses - I give you that one, no signs of that at all.
3. expropriation or nationalization of private property - that has been happening all along, federal land grabs for various reasons, imminent domain conflicts, other similar things.
4. Censorship - Political Correctness is the stalking horse for this. And it chokes off free speech more every day. It is absolutely the most insidious thing they have come up with.
We aren't there yet, but we are not all that far off either.
#3, add asset forteiture without charges or trials
#4, where opposition can be termed hate speech that's criminalized
We're almost there. Just wait till passports get yanked and people won't be allowed to leave the country.
#1 can be pushed back. Support Our America Initiative's campaign to make debates open to qualified third-party candidates as well.
The very topic of this thread is a good indicator of that: John Galt never had to deal with whether you could buy stuff on Amazon in the Gulch. Nonetheless, the fact that one can obtain encrypted and secret avatars for communication, Bitcoins for payment, etc means that the government has not tightened the noose completely.
Jan
"2. Executions without trial for political offenses - I give you that one, no signs of that at all. "
The gov't killed a US citizen abroad b/c they thought he would be difficult to arrest and because his alleged motive was political. They don't do it for people who murder for insurance money, a relationship dispute, or a random serial killer pathology. This is not 100% what Rand was saying, but it's inching closer to an execution without trial for political offenses.
Get a declaration of war and your statement makes sense, without that step from congress its just murder.
Having your life zeroed-out and starting over again because someone accuses you falsely and decimates your life through using the legal system against you, your life and your freedom is the equivalent of murder.
It does not meet the standards of murder for me because life was not lost.
Depending up the circumstances murder would be less painful and far kinder, I see your point, but won't agree to that equivalence.
It takes time from you...and time is all that we have...hence shortening your life deliberately and prematurely. That is the definition of the word murder.
I posted an article on it elsewhere in the gulch.
So we've already "shrugged". I might add that it happened for me about 1995. I'll add that I stopped Supporting the Beast about 25 years ago.
You are correct in your vision of the residents of the Gulch. The whole point was that those of true superior intellect and work ethic gather in a place where they are free to develop whatever skills they have to the extent of their desire.
I am not referring to the usual elites who only are elites in their own mind without true accomplishments. The Gulch is meant to represent true freedom in all its forms.
The perfect example was the United States during the first 200 years of its existence when we developed from an agricultural economy to become the industrial and technological giant of the world during a time of true economic freedom. Sadly this freedom has town been turned upside down.
Fred Speckmann
One of the things I liked about X-men was they did have advanced technology. The Gulch would have it too, but a lot of technology is founded on an advanced infrastructure, which would not be there for awhile.
I don't have to buy commercial convenience foods, I can make my own. It's a matter of, are you dependent on that provided technology? I've been slowly turning these things off as much as I can while still having to live/work in society. I can do without TV. I like YouTube because it's such a wealth of information, but I can find books. As long as it's there, I will use it.
We don't even really need high speed internet, or phone lines, we could actually create that ourselves with Amateur radio services - it's still tech, but it isn't dependent upon an establish, commercial, gov't regulated infrastructure. Giving up "tech" is relative. A shovel is high-tech compared to digging with your bare hands.
The subject of this thread is really an avenue for discussion about that choice.
If you choose isolation that automatically produces limits.
If you stay within society, that also puts a different group of limits on you.
Personally I don't believe true isolation is achievable or optimal, the numbers just are not there.
We seem to mostly want to maintain something approximating our current standards of living, and that mitigates against total isolation without very large numbers.
This is sort-of true b/c I support Democrats and Republicans, and the parties sometimes do things to weaken capitalism, even though I lobby them not to.
"You support universal healthcare which requires mandatory participation or be fined."
Partly true. Is your point about me personally or about these issues? I would love to talk about gov't subsidy of healthcare, health insurance mandate, etc, but if the topic is who is a more rigtheous person, that's pointless. It's unlikely one of us will be swayed and convinced he's evil; and I would be fundamentally opposed to that goal anyway.
to your second comment-"partly true" You supported the President. The largest, most liberty sucking policy change made in 60 years was under President Obama. what's partly about that? This is propagandizing
It almost seems like you've been in the world of politics so long, that you can't imagine anything but second-handers getting behind other people or wanting a reaction from people. It must be, you apprently think, a strategem for some group or another. It appears to scare you to think of someone acting as an individual, not a part of representing some gang. I am certainly WRONG in that impresssion b/c you've said you're categorically against people acting as groups.
Note that it's very easy for me to speak my mind outside my industry b/c there's nothing at stake for me. This is someone else's game. All I want out of it is a free and open society. If some issue of integrity hurt my writing or electronics work, that would actually mean something.
I would be happy to discuss state policies. I have never met Gov Walker. I think he was right on busting public unions but wrong to sell it as a cost-saving measure and to try to pit people against one another. I am okay with partially privatizing UW, but not if the gov't is going to forbid tuition increases. I suspect my even talking about it would bother you, though, unless you can categorize it into some political interest group rather than some guy's thoughts.
Please don't sweat me being wrong about stuff. Otherwise you'll always be upset b/c I have a history of being wrong, like when I wrote those SPY calls a couple days ago.
Not because they disagree with capitalism, but probably because as an Obama supporter they do not believe you do.
I don't know who is doing it however.
A business center with good access to transport (road/rail/air), energy, water, and communications is both a leg up for your business and attracts other businesses to dilute your costs.
Again, very possible to make pretty self funding where the non-gulch businesses are diluting the costs for the gulch.
And a nearby neighborhood of residences would not raise any eyebrows.
Example 1 - one proposal is to purchase a hotel/ small resort that has either gone under or is close to doing so. You then rehab it re-open, but this time with some major changes to purpose. If it is done as part short term rental for vacationers/tourists and part permanent residents, it can even be self funding. Permanent residents would of course have to "buy in" in one form or another.
While possible almost anywhere, to be a paying proposition you need to be in a location that draws that short term clientele.
The biggest break you would likely be able to get in the US would be on the tax front for a business center nucleus. And depending on the break that could be the difference between doable and not.
This can be done anywhere technically, but to be effective cover you pick a region where gated communities are already around. This way you don't stick out as a group of oddballs.
The problem with your idea is that you are describing a place only accessible to those already wealthy. A true Gulch needs to be accessible to all those that have skills, but more than that the desire to be free, politically, economically and yes, free to practice their faith if they so desire. Kind of a place once called the United States of America. We already had a Gulch right here if we only chose to restore it by finding and voting into office people who have actually read and understand the Constitution.
\
Fred Speckmann
Restoring the US to what it was, is impossible for a lot of reasons. Including the fact that there were many aspects of the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries we would not want back in place now.
It would be possible to restore some of those principles, and it would be amazing to do so. Which politicians would work to do so though is really a big part of the problem.
You are correct, however, being the eternal optimist that I am, I muat remind everyone of the most important two documents ever written that are at the foundation of this nation. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
As an immigrant to this country from under the thumb of Communism in East Germany and having lived her for 56 years, at the age of 67 I would remind everyone that this nation despite its many faults is still the "Shining light upon the hill."
Our forefathers knew what they were doing and even foresaw the difficulties we would surely encounter.
Let us not forsake their dream and fight on and remain ever vigilant of those that would destroy this dream.
Fred Speckmann
The Gulch would have to be invisible to the outside world, or set up its own defense forces. When things get bad enough in the outside world, people will start looting in desperation, and their first targets will be the haves. John Galt probably had laser defenses for the valley, assuming anyone even suspected it existed. With a futuristic motor, all technologies would become possible for the Gulch but not for the outsiders. How else could he override all the TV networks?
What would be most helpful is to hang in here and keep injecting rational values into the current culture, veering it away from perpetual wars and mutual destruction and cannibalistic social programs. Now consider also that it would take a very tiny push to turn a Gulch, real or virtual, into an ever larger group until it takes on the characteristics of a collective. As it grew, it would take on more and more power, and aim towards increasing its powers, both for its self-preservation and for exerting influence over the rest of the world, if only to make that world more amenable to its own standards. Beware the totalitarian temptation.
I, too, would cherish having only kindred spirits in my circle, of individuals I can respect, admire and embrace as kin. Not an accidental tribe but a chosen one. I have often pondered whether there is a contradiction between unremitting individualism and the natural human condition of belonging to a group of companions, friends, collaborators. And while one should not live "for the sake of another", it's fine to be voluntarily generous and giving towards individuals who are a value to oneself.
I find it almost comical how within this forum certain commenters are jumped on and condemned for minor deviations from doctrine. I rather view it as a colony of memes in each person's head reacting against perceived memes in the other's, and like rival dogs those memes rear up for battle. Imagine if that happens in this tiny group, how much more virulent that battle becomes when nation states or religious systems confront each other with millions or even billions of members dragged in.
Humanity is still on an evolutionary track intellectually and emotionally. Yes, they all need philosophy. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this company could form a critical mass to give it that little push, that butterfly wing flap, into a better direction? We've come too far, too long, to let everything the last half million years have gained be wiped out because we can be made to hate unreasoningly and to kill unconscionably. This is not a time to shrug. It's a time to be objectively rational and do a little genetic engineering in human consciousness, to be the antidote to the deadly ideas dominating our culture.
Jan
Back in the 40's and 50's going Galt meant something totally different from today. One could still essentially disappear from the world and leave no trace. Even without going Galt there were people who were dropping off the radar.. But that was back in the days before Google earth, satellites, predator drones. In the world we currently live in there is no place left to hide. One could go off to the middle of nowhere and live by subsistence farming. But, for one that would mostly just suck. For another, as soon as you got good enough to actually be making it the very same looters would be there with their hands out. It seems that we should be looking for a solution that allows us to be successful. What if we didn't have to do that here?
This guy has been making the news, and if he turns out not to be a total crackpot we might have an answer.
http://www.paresspacewarpresearch.org/
Right now there are a decent number of G2V class stars within 50 Light Years of here.
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/50lys....
Again if he turns out to not be a crackpot then we would need to get probes out there to look for a place that humans can thrive on. Then, we find a way to establish a colony and start terraforming the heck out of it.
The best route to build Atlantis would be to start over from scratch and simply leave the Looters and Moochers behind.
I wish we could.
Jan
That is not what I WON'T give up, it is what I CAN'T give up. I am what is termed a "chronic pain patient" - what that means is that I got one of those spines on which the warranty runs out early, and I take narcotics every single day.
As I think about shrugging [in the go somewhere else sense] I have researched opium poppies, and the process of obtaining the narcotic from the plant is not difficult, just need a good chemist or even someone who can follow directions exactly.
So my case is covered, at least to my satisfaction, but I know there are other people with other problems who should consider how to deal with them.
Simple. Sell the house and car and TV. Buy a boat and head where the sun is shining.
Of course there are the occasional tropical revolving storms and a few odds and ends like that but lest I forget.
NO POLITICAL COMMERCIALS!!!!!!!
I still remember my camping skills. Subsistence farming isn't too different from camping. Midas Mulligan started out that way--bought out the valley (probably the Uncompahgre Valley north of the old Million Dollar Highway, which he would have had cut off), built a simple log house, and, I imagine, dug a well so he could subsist on a combined farming and ranching operation. Judge Narragansett agreed to specialize in dairy and chicken farming. Richard Halley planted an orchard.
Let's not forget, however, that John Galt solved the secret of electrostatic motors. He likely built small motors for the few cabins the valley sported at first. But Dick McNamara would come along and string power lines and lay pipe for water mains and sewers--though I imagine they had to invent some kind of sewage treatment. They *could not* afford to discharge raw sewage into the river. It would have given too important a clue to the outsiders.
The Amish showed the way. They simply froze their technological embrace at the level that existed when they formed their first communities. If they can do it, so can we.
A collapse on that order starting in either the US or China would bring down the economy of the entire world, or close enough to make no difference anyway.
Look at the far reaching effects in 2008, and that was not a full on collapse. A new dark age, much worse than any previous ones.
Were contacted last night by some close families regarding land in Peru, going in together.
Staying connected to the rest of the world would be an issue, depending on how important it was that the Gulch stay hidden. A community hidden like the one in the book would probably need to ban traceable connections of any kind. On the other hand, in a successful new country or seasteading, nobody would need to hide unless they were wanted in some other country (or planned on engaging in activities illegal there, as for instance Ragnar D).
We have the intelligence to make it better. Surpassing the government crippled corrupt mess should be a no brainer. Shed the shackles and we will flourish!
There was another thread about doing this with precious metals or gems, but that's not really necessary and probably not especially helpful. What I'd rather have when the crisis hits is a paid-for but modest-looking home, in some rural place unlikely to draw looters -- and with a farmstead that can feed my family, and hopefully some friends, without any need for a functioning economy. Then as long as looters don't set up a government nearby that I can't defend myself from, I'll be fine.
The concept of Galts Gulch is compelling, else why would most of us spend our time here. I started this thread for discussion on pros and cons and choices that can be made for having a non-virtual gulch.
This site is already building a virtual gulch for all of us, especially with the new features that have been added of late. At the same time, some people might like to go a bit further beyond virtual.
P.S. Before anyone goes off on me about being theistic, I am trying to have a little humor here.
:)
While I'm going to try avoid giving anything up, but $25 bottles of wine and $20 cigars may have to be trimmed.
But until then, Cheers!
1. Gulch org convinces some gov't to create a "free-trade zone" or something in a remote region. Gov't says yes b/c they are not collecting any taxes there as it is, so they're not giving up anything.
2. Lower taxes and fewer gov't rules drives capital and innovative people to the Gulch. They invent stuff like nanofibers that could be used to build building miles high and strings of DNA that cause cancer cells to self-destruct.
3. Investors and Gulch residents get rich, but looters want a cut of it. It's not fair, looters say, to take the best and the brightest people and the capital investment, leaving traditional nations stuck with the social problems.
4. Gulch is in a Mexican standoff with investors and their nation states, leaving the Gulch in a position of tenuous peace and freedom.
5. Other settlements model themselves after the Gulch. Some nation states initiate some libertarian reforms for the practical reason that they work. Modeling gov't on the Gulch becomes a fact of life like the US Constitution. Not everyone does it. Most places do a watered-down version. But the world has a level of liberty that would have seemed like a dream to their great grandparents living in the 21st century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disne...
Besides - I can't see California ever granting them the resources to try it - either in terms of land or power. Now if they moved next door to Nevada...
Second question: why not build it in EuroDisney? If there was ever a set of nations that needed ideas, it would be the EU... ;)
After all if you slay the golden goose, no more eggs are laid.
An attack of force would have to be defended the same way as throughout history, reply in kind.
A nuclear bomb? seriously, that type of comment is very trollish
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