19

Today, at work...

Posted by desimarie23 6 years, 1 month ago to Government
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The office manager took the group of us out to lunch. Normally the topics of conversation at such lunches are mindless. Today...because of the SOTU crap last night, the office manager decided to throw her two-cents about government out on the table for discussion. Of course I cringed because both she and her husband (my boss) are Liberal and obviously very pro-BO. Mind you- my boss is a VERY successful attorney and very, very wealthy.

So she says "Did you hear that 'they're' talking about making two years of community college free??" and while I attempted to restrain myself...I replied "and who is paying for that 'free' education? Nothing is ever free." "Oh the top 1% that hold all of the wealth of the country..." I asked her why she thinks that it's ok to take money from one person to give it to someone else. Her exact words are "that's the way it goes...they don't need all of that money anyway."

I left. I got up, got into my car and drove back to work. Had I not done that, I would've lost my job for telling her what a fool she is. I just needed to share this. We've discussed the "free education" in the Gulch before. So no need to beat a dead horse but there are truly people that think it is 100% okay to redistribute wealth to the undeserving. This woman also thinks that the present economy is the best it's ever been in our country....and "wouldn't it be great if BO could always be president."

Just shoot me.


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  • 16
    Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 1 month ago
    Then she should pay for everyone's college since she doesn't 'need' all that money she has. How dare she pretend to be the voice of others and act as if she's an authority on the monetary 'needs' of others. High horse, self important moron. I'm glad you got up and left. Take a bunch of employees out to lunch and intimidate them with your socialist ideas. She's a socialist... who could eat after listening that?
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    • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
      Sadly the rest of them did. The general response I got was "I was afraid to offend her." But she offended everything I live by and will lose no sleep over it, so I couldn't sit and listen to her spew nonsense.
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      • Posted by plusaf 6 years, 1 month ago
        If that was the 'general response,' maybe you should go out to lunch with THAT group and ignore the boss.

        If she asks where you're going, imply that a new club just started... :) ... and she can wait for an invitation... arriving right after hell freezes over...
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        • Posted by khalling 6 years, 1 month ago
          Plusaf has a great point. Do reach out to others who see things the way you do. It 's not just to reinforce what your ideas are, it 's also to expand your thinking on those ideas and strategize. Consider that part of their illusion is propped up by keeping us isolated through PC and other tactics. Lunch with others afraid to offend her might be just the ticket.
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          • Posted by Maritimus 6 years, 1 month ago
            Before you start the "new club" try to scan the membership and exclude the brownnoser who will describe you to the socialist as the leader of the club to put you up as a target of sanctions. Of course, all depends on how much you like that job. I would not what to work in a place where bosses push their politics on their employees, even on a lunch break.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 1 month ago
              "exclude the brownnoser who will describe you to the socialist as the leader of the club to put you up as a target of sanctions."
              Worrying about spies will drive you crazy. While some person wonders what your ideology is and a brownnoser spies, just create value and solve problems. I really don't understand how they can get anything done while spending time worrying about each other's personal beliefs. If you focus on being excellent at solving customer problems, you'll get better that. The conspiracy people will get better at politics.
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              • Posted by Maritimus 6 years, 1 month ago
                I agree with you that paranoia can drive a person crazy.

                In a situation where an authority imposes its political views and others are forming a "new club" in opposition, an obvious conflict arises. Any individual can be tempted to choose sides and trade loyalty to the group for benefits from the authority, by betraying the group. I do not see any conspiracy in that situation. Common sense, it seems to me, counsels recognition of the risk and prudence.

                As I tried to say in my first comment, the whole situation is a poison to a healthy work environment. I have been there in my life. I chose to quit and found a way into "solving customer problems", practicing development engineering. What we developed is still the best in the world, 40 years hence.
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    • Posted by woodlema 6 years, 1 month ago
      Here is a GREAT way to handle that one. Send her an email and BCC yourself.

      While I was very interested in your views at lunch regarding the top 1% not needing the money anyhow. I am taking the time to forward you the greatest opportunity for you to "put YOUR money where your mouth is."

      Since you are part of that top 1% here is a web link where you can freely take all that money you don't need and sent it in to the government so they can pay for that free education that you yourself said you as part of the 1% should pay for.
      http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resou...

      The link to just empty your "unneeded money using your debit/credit card.

      http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resou...

      Please let me know how much you sent in so I can use you as a great example of this particular viewpoint.

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      • Posted by plusaf 6 years, 1 month ago
        VERY GOOD! I might have worded the message something more like,

        "I was thinking about what you said, so I did some research, and guess what? There's a real process already available for anyone who wants to help support social programs by contributing extra money to them! ... here's the link... ..... Thanks again for encouraging me to do that bit of research. Forward the link to anyone you think would like to contribute their extra cash!"

        And then smile and click "send."
        :)
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 6 years, 1 month ago
        Very few believe they are in that top 1%, regardless of whether they are or aren't. They'll say they're only in the top 5%, so not them. Unless you're Bill Gates or Warren Buffett, there's always someone with more money.
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        • Posted by woodlema 6 years, 1 month ago
          Point is if they are liberal they always think everyone should pay more, so I offer them the opportunity.
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          • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
          • Posted by Robbie53024 6 years, 1 month ago
            But they never believe that they are "rich enough" to be required to have to pay. Merely those evil "rich people."

            And the evil rich people never part with their money willingly, so it must be wrenched from them.
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    • Posted by sumitch 6 years, 1 month ago
      Not as intelligent as you, but I had a similar thing happen to me. I live in an apartment complex and there an area to go, drink coffee and talk. I was sitting at a table with a couple of ladies and remembered it was almost time for the SOTU. I said I've got to get I don't want to miss the big deal SOTH babble. One of the ladies clouded up and said that she had heard to me talking and knows that I don't like Obama and she does. I told her that she needs to pay close attention the next time she's ease dropping because I plan on talking about people that like Obama and that I consider them traitors to this nation. She started to back talk and I told her she's right it's never a good idea to bring up politics or religion and didn't say anything else. I asked her what it was that she liked about a Muslim leaning, lying, socialist criminal. I think I almost caused a heart attack. I also told her that I'll talk to anyone that wants to talk about government and if she didn't like it she could lump it.

      One more name I've added to my list of people that can kiss my arse.
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      • Posted by plusaf 6 years, 1 month ago
        sum... you now know more about her than you did before, including what's safe to say in front of her and where she's got a hot button connected!

        I've got whole branches of my family whose buttons I can press that way, who also try to provoke me into arguments because our views are so diametrically opposed.

        The fun thing for me is to choose, on the spot, whether to rise to the bait and join the fray at any given time.

        Enjoy the chemistry!
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        • Posted by sumitch 6 years, 1 month ago
          You're right. I know more about her than I did. Not that I cared to know anything about her in the first place, but I take your meaning.

          Never-the-less, if someone wants to talk about Barry or anyone else in his socialist, criminal administration, I'll be happy to voice my opinion if wanted. She can sit in my lap so she can better listen in.

          Wait!! Let me rethink that.
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  • 14
    Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 6 years, 1 month ago
    My question is why are you continuing to support your employer with your labor and your mind? Dust off your resume and move on.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
      I think there are idiots everywhere. Changing jobs won't necessarily fix the problem, just introduce me to a new and unfamiliar one. It's not to say that I don't consider that very question myself every day lol....I just continue to work hard until I produce enough wealth to pursue better opportunities.
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      • 10
        Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 6 years, 1 month ago
        Yoy can interview potential employers and research to find the like minded.
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        • Posted by $ Susanne 6 years, 1 month ago
          I would find it difficult - if not impossible - to work with someone whose looter philosophy feels justified in theft... then again, an attorney's job IS to justify a point of view and "make it right" in your heart. I *know* there are non-liberalist looter/moocher inclined attorneys out there; I hope you find one and are willing to put your talents to good use, rather than supporting a person whose moral compass is, shall we say, less than ethical?

          I wonder had Potus said blatantly he was going to provide 2 years of college education, and do so by a tax on everyone - how many of these greedy self-centerec libs would have sung its praises...

          Sorry... but I couldn't, in good conscience, work for someone like that. I did, years ago, and left when I had the chance... and never looked back!
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          • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 6 years, 1 month ago
            Well said. +1. I also worked for someone (well paying job too), that on the day I found out his ethics didn't match mine, I said "I don't need to be here", handed in my issued equipment and never looked back. I didn't have a replacement job at the time either. Sometimes you just have to step out there without fear.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 1 month ago
              "Sometimes you just have to step out there without fear"
              If you're like me, you never looked back and said, "I wish I could get that somewhat crappy I-guess-I-can-put-up-with-this job back." Every time I've taken a decision like this that I felt somewhat nervous about, I have *always* wondered why I didn't act sooner.
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          • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
            It isn't always easy to drop it and walk, but I don't plan on being here any longer than I have to. My job is affording me an education I need to go elsewhere. Working for attorneys isn't my idea of a good time...to say the very least. Most of the time I am content in my work and have enough to do that I don't hear the psychobabble. This was just one time where I wasn't able to avoid it.
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            • Posted by $ winterwind 6 years, 1 month ago
              I would hope that "I don't plan on being here any longer than I have to..." includes a real plan [please excuse my bluntness; sometimes that is a meaningless phrase and sometimes it isn't].
              I hope that you have in mind what you will have to have to do, for how long, how you'll reach the desired point, and how you know you're there. Implementing a plan which includes performing disagreeable or distasteful actions is STILL implementing a plan on how you're going to get out of there - making progress.
              Best of luck.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 1 month ago
        "Changing jobs won't necessarily fix the problem, just introduce me to a new and unfamiliar one. "
        New and unfamiliar problems are a good thing, IMHO.
        If you confronted the owners about it, you _might_ find they actually enjoy the discussion. They might just shut up about because they don't want turnover. You might even (although probably not) change their minds about something.
        I strongly agree with rockymountainpirate that if they're that annoying, it's best to move on. There are too many interesting people, projects, and situations to work on to spend any time with people who carry on about politics or do anything too annoying.
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    • Posted by Timelord 6 years, 1 month ago
      It could be that, outside of that lunch, the work environment is pleasant or maybe she likes her job a lot. Maybe there aren't any opportunities as good. Maybe there are lots of opportunities but all the bosses would be the same.

      She is supporting her employer with her labor and her mind, but the capitalist system is two-way. He is compensating her for her value, which may have nothing to do with progressive politics.

      Lastly, there are myriad reasons not to just pick up and leave. We all make decisions based on our own personal hierarchy of values.
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  • 11
    Posted by Snoogoo 6 years, 1 month ago
    I'm sorry you have to deal with such a stupid boss. I knew my boss was cool when he asked me if I wanted my bonus via check or payroll... He asked it this way "Are you interested in giving the government an interest free loan or not?" Of course I said no and took the check. But then again he owns his own business. If that lady owned her own business she would not be around for long with that attitude.
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  • 10
    Posted by Snoogoo 6 years, 1 month ago
    I would have asked if I could "borrow" her credit card to get some stuff I "need". After maxing it out, I would repeat her own line "That's the way it goes.. you don't need all that money anyway."
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 6 years, 1 month ago
    Everything liberals advocate is based on theft.
    Everything they say is used to justify theft (social justice, economic justice, for the children, the planet, the underprivileged, reparations, fair-share, the rich don't need all that money, etc.)
    To the "that's the way it goes...they don't need all of that money anyway" my response is, "So, then you believe you should be making choices for them about their money? By what stretch of the imagination do you have that power to make choices for them without their consent? Is it a 'right' you have or is it just theft?"

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  • Posted by strugatsky 6 years, 1 month ago
    I do not think that she is stupid. I think that she is a hypocrite. She knows that the 1% don't pay for anything; she also wants to (or does) belong to the 1%. Most multi-millionaires and billionaires are socialists - and for a good reason. Socialism provides protected markets where the ones that are on top stay on top, so long as they play the game, while the system (the government) protects them from competition. And the entry into the top 1% is open to all; again, as long as they play the game – it is not based on virtues and performance, but on backstabbing and machinations, with due respect to the ruling class, of course. So, again, she is not stupid and the apparently stupid answer was meant for public consumption. She is, however, evil.
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  • Posted by RonC 6 years, 1 month ago
    They are all around us. They believe the government owns everything and creates all wealth. Over time it has proven to be untrue, but they don't care.

    Wealth is created by Land, improvements to land, natural resources, and value added through manufacturing (labor). That is the classic "Funk and Wagnels" definition. In the early 20th century copyrights and intellectual property were added to that. Since most of us don't sit atop an oil well or gold mine, and we aren't likely to write a hit song or screen play, labor becomes the most portable and universal method to build wealth.

    In the heyday of the US (1900-1965) we used our resources, our ideas, our labor, and our salesforce to create products desired and sold around the world. In 1972 I remember reading "Future Shock", which promoted the idea of the coming service economy and America's turning away from manufacturing and blue collar. For about 50 years the progressives have moved us toward that service economy.

    Let's look at wealth potential and services. When you get a haircut, which feels good and looks good and deserves the payment of the barber, what is the intrinsic value of that haircut? In a few weeks it's worth nothing and has to be done all over again. Same for tax preparation. It's a valuable service that most people need these days, but what is the future value of that stack of papers on April 16th?

    On the other hand, if you bought land, improved it with a house or commercial building, is it not worth more. In most cases there is synergy and it's worth more than the sum of the two.

    Progressives don't see it that way. Wealth is created by the government and distributed as government allows. One of my favorite motivational speakers used to say if you philosophy won't hold water, then you are all wet.

    It is an injustice that some progressives have acquired enough wealth to force or coerce reasonable people to do their bidding. The fact is they would not trade places with the people that need education.

    If you listen to Rush, he would say it takes no effort to be a liberal, just a kind or warm thought. If you do something with a good feeling, then results don't matter. For the rest of us, result do matter.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 1 month ago
    The sad part is that your office manager has no idea that she and her husband are the real targets of increased taxation. The 1% are too powerful to actually suffer any hardship, but the top 10% will get hit in the gonads with a baseball bat when the tax bill comes. SIGH . . . there's no fixing stupid.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 1 month ago
    Do what you can to be able to choose where you want to work, or work for yourself. Someone who is a good lawyer or businessman can be an idiot in other aspects of life. With independence of employment as one of you goals, you won't feel like getting shot.
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  • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 1 month ago
    "Why is it moral to serve the happiness of others, but not your own? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but immoral when experienced by you? If the sensation of eating a cake is a value, why is it an immoral indulgence in your stomach, but a moral goal for you to achieve in the stomach of others? Why is it immoral for you to desire, but moral for others to do so? Why is it immoral to produce a value and keep it, but moral to give it away? And if it is not moral for you to keep a value, why is it moral for others to accept it? If you are selfless and virtuous when you give it, are they not selfish and vicious when they take it? Does virtue consist of serving vice? Is the moral purpose of those who are good, self-immolation for the sake of those who are evil?

    The answer you evade, the monstrous answer is: No, the takers are not evil, provided they did not earn the value you gave them. It is not immoral for them to accept it, provided they are unable to produce it, unable to deserve it, unable to give you any value in return. It is not immoral for them to enjoy it, provided they do not obtain it by right.

    Such is the secret core of your creed, the other half of your double standard: it is immoral to live by your own effort, but moral to live by the effort of others—it is immoral to consume your own product, but moral to consume the products of others—it is immoral to earn, but moral to mooch—it is the parasites who are the moral justification for the existence of the producers, but the existence of the parasites is an end in itself—it is evil to profit by achievement, but good to profit by sacrifice—it is evil to create your own happiness, but good to enjoy it at the price of the blood of others." AS (Galt's speech) - AR
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  • Posted by kathywiso 6 years, 1 month ago
    I have to say it took balls to get up and walk out..and to ask WHO is going to pay for this.. She doesn't realize those rich people she wants to pay the tax are making products that you and I and she are going to buy and that cost will be added on to those products, so WE will be the ones paying the tax anyway.. You may want to start looking for another job because the lack of a brain may put you out of work soon anyway :)
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 6 years, 1 month ago
    You know...I have just resigned myself to the idea that there will often be people around me who are nuts and/or out of touch. I couldn't have done this in my younger years...but, I have learned to just bite my tongue and let stuff roll off.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
      I grew up in an atmosphere where I needed to bite my tongue more often than not. I am used to dealing with uneducated people spewing their opinions all over the place. I am tolerant of other people's opinions until they strike a nerve and are so off-based that I can't hold back. I think I made more of a statement walking out than I would've by arguing. People with that mindset are so past talking to that I can't waste my breath on them.
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  • Posted by $ Flootus5 6 years, 1 month ago
    This is a classic example of knowing when, where, why, to pick your battles. What can you afford? It is the ability to bring home the bacon versus the devastating cost to your principles.

    It has always been an adage to not discuss religion or politics in the work place. Even in my relatively conservative profession of gold mining and with some of the biggie corporate producers, there were some idiots that actually voted for Obama knowing that his administration is dead set against public land resource extraction.

    It has been wise to be careful in the workplace, but I found a technique that is effective. Carry the discussion as though you were the moderator of a debate. Acknowledge that there are those that are in this camp, and there are others in the opposite camp, there are differing views and ultimately the proof is in the pudding. Pose the question of how do you taste the pudding and watch the gears of thought process slowly begin to unjam and turn.

    Demonstrate that opposing premises can be evaluated, that which is A can be recognized as A, and the faulty premises leading to apparent contradiction can be ejected.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 1 month ago
    For seven years of my life I was a college-trained newspaper reporter. At first I had a conservative boss until I got a new job, moving from Alabama to Mississippi in 1980.
    I was quite shocked to learn that the staff on this particular paper was expected to be anti-Reagan. I'm like--what, I'm in Mississippi?
    I quickly came to realize that that there pervaded a notion that anyone in the media was SUPPOSED to be anti-Reagan.
    To make a too long story short, by 1982 I was employed by the Alabama Department of Corrections. Talk about a radical career change.
    I was paid a bit better, a lot better after step raises, while I also paid into a retirement I enjoy now.
    No, don't work for any prison system unless you are a crazy dino. A radical career change may be worth considering though.
    Good luck, desimarie23, I know how you feel.
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  • Posted by jimslag 6 years, 1 month ago
    Sounds like a setup for something like what happened at Harvard. All those professors were for the ACA (ObamaCare) and gladly said so. Then the professor's medical insurance rates went up and they were incredulous that the rate increase hit them. I wonder what that attorney is going to say when her tax rates jump to help pay for all this "FREE" stuff that O is giving away.
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  • Posted by $ Ben_C 6 years, 1 month ago
    I work in a very blue town and most attorneys here are liberals - of course. Attorneys make their living from controversey - the more the better. When people are self reliant there is little conflict. When people are dependent on others ie government then there is lots of conflict. The US graduates in one year the same number of lawyers that equalas all existing medical doctors. And we wonder why trial lawyers vote against tort reform.
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  • Posted by norman1 6 years, 1 month ago
    you did the proper thing by leaving.
    now do you have the guts to tell her why you left if asked?
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    • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
      We had a conversation today actually. She pulled me in her office first thing in the morning...before I had my coffee. Poor choice on her end. I explained my view and she didn't understand a word. "Selfishness won't get you anywhere in this world." One of the partners stepped in on the conversation because the debate was no longer private at this point. He told me there's no use talking to a wall.
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      • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 1 month ago
        Did she say "Selfishness won't get you anywhere in this world" to you?
        I would ask, which is more selfish, to wish to enjoy the fruits of one's labor, or to demand the fruits of another?
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        • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
          Yes, that is what she told me. And I did say something along the lines of "...but it's considered a virtue to take someone else's money? Explain to me why it's ok for your husband to bust his butt for 35 years for his money to be forcibly TAKEN and given to another..." THAT is where the partner stepped in to pull me away.
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          • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 1 month ago
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=452XjnaH...

            Sometimes...
            "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." Ayn Rand
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            • Posted by sanitytalk 6 years, 1 month ago
              Reason also can be thwarted by years of propaganda and brainwashing that most certainly comes from 8 to 10 years in a college environment. What everyone does not understand is "Liberals know what is best for you and are going to MAKE you behave in that manner".
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              • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 1 month ago
                Greetings sanitytalk,
                Yes propaganda is a powerful tool. Once embedded one must also fight confirmation bias.
                "The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
                Also the propagandists have subverted and absconded the word Liberal... Traditionally it held such a different meaning...
                The battle rages on,
                Respectfully,
                O.A.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 1 month ago
            Good for you! What's with this bitch anyway? She apparently thinks Marx was correct with his "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need". She sounds like an over bearing monster, but good for you for standing up to her. Sounds like the partner might have a thinker in there though.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 6 years, 1 month ago
    Desimarie23,

    If you are able, I would suggest you obtain a concealed carry permit. Then, next time you have one of these lunches, bring it up as a kind of celebration!

    You may find that you are no longer welcome at these lunches, which will give you the freedom to chose with whom you wish to eat, from then on.
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    • Posted by sumitch 6 years, 1 month ago
      Thanks for the company and assumed sympathy. If you don't mind let me walk in the middle if we go anywhere. I understand there's a bounty on my noggin. <br abp="1360"> <br abp="1361">Generally speaking I try to be courteous but when it comes to certain subjects I have no control, I gotta get my say in. Considering my 1st amendment rights, I'll talk to anyone about almost any subject, even unpopular ones such as religion or politics. Sometimes I learn something, but I must blushingly admit that I know more about my position and find when talking politics that at least 75% of the peeps don't know what they are talking about when I challenge them to back up what they think. <br abp="1362"> <br abp="1363">Joining one other here and I suspect others, I no longer have much communication with my sister who I love dearly and respect even more for her personal accomplishments. But early on, just after the 1st inauguration or crowning if you prefer my sister asked me what I thought of Obama and my answer prompted the response "Why don't you give him a chance"? Followed by the crash of the phone being hung up (not really, she has one of those multiple hundred dollar smart phones_ but you get the idea). We agreed not to talk about his nibs soon followed by her sending me the clip of the little talk of Bobby Jindal explaining why he understood Obama's dislike of colonialism because he (Bobby) is one. Obama must have been brain washed quickly as he was only in a Muslim school for the first part of grade school in Indonesia. I now keep a close eye on Jindal as his name is being tossed around as a candidate for President. <br abp="1364"> <br abp="1365">The last time I talked to my little sister, she proudly announced that she was a liberal Democrat to which I replied "she should be careful about who you say that to" as a snide comeback. Then she lets fly with "I hate Ted Cruz. I wish Texas would drop out of the union". I reminded her that the Civil war pretty much made that a no-no followed by that I find Senator Cruz far superior to What's-his-face John McCain, the world authority on crashing Phantoms.
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  • Posted by Timelord 6 years, 1 month ago
    I feel your pain and I'm glad you were able to just vamoose instead of getting into fight about politics with your boss!

    The "they don't need all of that money anyway" attitude is everywhere. People that seem reasonable otherwise will spout the most ridiculous things when it comes to (non-existent) rights. People have a "right" to a home, food, high-paying job with benefits, healthcare, etc. I had such an experience and there was no exit, metaphorically.

    I was in FL last winter recuperating from a heart problem and she invited a woman and her husband over for dinner. I'd met the woman before and she's exceedingly nice, generous and a talented artist. Her husband, who I hadn't met, was a successful lawyer who had retired, only to start a new practice helping the poor with an array of legal services, including litigation, pro bono. That's very admirable, of course. Because I am a hardcore libertarian and objectivist my mom reminded me that they are extremely liberal and asked me not to bring up politics (or religion, they're also fake, staunch Catholics).

    A very pleasant dinner ensued; they are both intelligent, well informed and well traveled. (Can someone believe in collectivism and all it's evils and still be intelligent?) And then the unthinkable happened, they brought up politics, Obamacare, the whole shebang. They adored Obama; he was the savior of mankind and civilization. It's very hard to stay calm in these conversations but I was mostly successful. They were mostly successful, too.

    I'll sound a bit like a douche for a second, but I'm fairly smart </douche-off>, extremely logical, absolutely consistent (hence objectivism and libertarianism) and have been a libertarian long enough to present the philosophy pretty well. But I was talking with two smart and hyper-dedicated progressives, so I knew it was going to be a challenge requiring me to argue competently.

    Before I had read AS I wouldn't have supported the statement that collectivists hate mankind, that they believe that humans as a species are despicable. Ayn Rand explained so clearly why that statement is true, so early on I determined to try something that I now attempt in every one of these types of conversation. I wanted them to state, clearly and in their own words, how much they detested, or at least didn't trust, mankind. Because of course progressives claim to be the only ones who want civilization to prosper because they love people so much. I call this conversational goal "tricking them into telling us how they really feel."

    The gory details of the discussion are irrelevant, which is lucky because I can't remember them anyway. The topic was: is healthcare/food/home a right or not. My position was, predictably, that capitalism was the best system, that government had absolutely no right to confiscate my property and give it to another, that people should earn things that they receive, there is no such thing as "deserve", that private enterprise and even outright voluntary charity would reduce poverty, suffering and oppression much more effectively than government thuggery. Their argument was precisely the opposite.

    We went back and forth about confiscation vs cooperation, was it possible to "take care" of so many poor, uneducated without government redistributing wealth and I of course pointed out that it certainly could work especially since under a non-confiscatory economic system there would be a fraction of the poor and uneducated than there are now. My triumph came at last when the lawyer spat out, in one of the very few times he lost his cool, "WE WANT TO FORCE YOU TO PAY, IT HAS TO BE DONE BY FORCE, THERE'S NO WAY PEOPLE WOULD GIVE VOLUNTARILY!" He really showed in his tone of voice, the angry look on his face and more importantly with his own words, how little he thought of mankind.

    Oh, I just dreamed up a sound bite that I quite love. "Objectivists despise individuals but love mankind, Collectivists love individuals but despise mankind." Maybe it needs some tweaking.

    P.S. As a part of the conversation that we did not pursue as a separate topic was their own inherent racism and the smugness of progressives. At one point they asserted how wonderful they were because they had adopted something like 11 kids in addition to their two biological ones. The kicker was the emphasis was that not one of them was white. She was so proud of that little tidbit, you could hear it in the way she said it and see it on her face. My *brain* quickly blurted out [you racist! why does that matter? is it morally superior to adopt a disadvantaged black kid over a disadvantaged white kid?] My mouth never said the words because the main topic was still in full swing and I didn't want to get sidetracked. A bit later she admitted, confusingly without any regret or guilt and possibly with some pride, that only ONE of their enormous brood was able to survive in the world on his/her own. All the rest were on the public dole for their survival.
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    • Posted by Timelord 6 years, 1 month ago
      Please forgive me! In my third paragraph I wrote, very mysteriously, "I was in FL last winter recuperating from a heart problem and she invited a woman and her husband over for dinner." Part of what was in my brain never made it out of my fingers. "I was in FL last winter {visiting my mom} recuperating ..."
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    • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
      Well done! I don't know if I could've carried on the conversation as you did. I get so disappointed with people for not being honest with themselves about what they really think and want. The fact that you were able to get this intelligent lawyer with 13 children to show his true colors is impressive. I had a fifteen minute conversation with my manager and about lost my mind.
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      • Posted by Timelord 6 years, 1 month ago
        Well, like I said, there was no exit! It was also an engaging challenge to discuss with people who understood the implications of their convictions. It's hard to "trick them into telling us how they really feel" when they don't even realize the truth themselves. Should I find it refreshing that they know they despise mankind or should I shrink in horror at the sheer evil of it all?

        My mom is a lovely person without a mean bone in her body, but she's either 1) not that bright, or 2) so unable to reconcile her conflicting beliefs that she compartmentalizes them and stubbornly believes both. We call that cognitive dissonance, right? I know and believe in the truth of two things that are mutually exclusive.

        My most recent success was talking with a friend with whom I've recently re-acquainted? Reconciled isn't the right word because we never had a fight cause us to drift, it just sort of happened when he became very depressed about a number of things and withdrew.

        Again the topic was Obamacare, which he emphatically mis-pronounced as the Affordable Care Act. He's absolutely convinced that medical care is a basic human right. Blah, blah many elements of the conversation were similar to the one at the aforetodescribed dinner. My triumph came when he said, with exasperation, that nobody could be trusted to take care of the less fortunate. He more than implied that he and I were the only two decent humans on the planet. This friend is also pretty smart, not as smart as the lawyer, but just as misguided, philosophically, and just as disdainful of man.

        The most frustrating elements of that conversation were when he'd ask for a concrete example or a further explanation of my position. I'd start out, "OK, for the sake of this example let's agree that XXX." and then I'd begin stepping him through my reasoning. It never failed that he'd interject, "Yeah, but wait, (not XXX)." How many times did I have to say that you can't change the parameters of a discussion in the middle! You agreed to XXX! "Yeah, but (not XXX)!" Grrrrrrr!

        Two weekends later we're together and out of the blue he makes a statement like, "Don't you believe that a person should be able to use his property (land, acreage) any way he likes?" "Why yes, of course." He agreed and went on to discuss some current event where a person was being forced to do or not do something with his property. I was dumbfounded but I kept that to myself!

        I was having another talk with a woman in her 30's that I'm quite fond of, the girlfriend of a friend of mine (fondness is platonic! besides, I'm gay!) It was a very calm discussion, somewhat short, of whether or not healthcare was a basic human right. She was tentatively in favor but interested in hearing my view. The next time we were together she brought it up again, asking why I didn't believe that healthcare was a basic human right.

        It might have been then that I thought up this statement and subsequent line of reasoning: "Nobody can have a right if they have to rely on others to exercise it." She looked thoughtful so I continued, "A basic right is something you're born with, by definition, correct? You have it just because you're a human being."

        "Ok, that makes perfect sense, I agree with you."

        "So if you have it the moment you're born, solely because you're human, can it rely on another person to exercise it? To make it real?"

        Thoughtful pause, then, "No, you'd have to posses it on your own."

        "Great, then we agree. Can you get medical care on your own or does a doctor have to provide it to you?"

        Brief pause, "A doctor has to provide it."

        "So does it follow then, that since another person has to provide the medical care that it can be a basic human right?"

        Luckily, she's honest and answered, "No."

        A lot of people, the ones who can't think, would say something like, "That doesn't matter, people need healthcare so it's a basic human right."

        If, by some miracle, your head doesn't explode right then and there, you can continue...

        "Let's try something different. Do people need food, clothes and shelter to survive?"

        They will answer, "Yes, of course."

        "Then are food, clothes and shelter basic human rights?"

        It's almost a 100% chance that you'll get, "Yes, of course, you'd die without them they're definitely a right!"

        "Fine, let's imagine a man wakes up totally alone in a pasture and he has no clothes, no food and no house. He has an absolute right to those things, rights that cannot be taken away. Where will he get them?"

        "Um um um um, the other people would have to give them to him!"

        "Uh uh, there isn't anyone else there, just the naked, hungry homeless guy. Where does he get the food, clothes and shelter that he has a right to?"

        "But that's stupid, there are other people! Society, the rich people have to take care of him." (not XXX, you knew that was going to come up, right?)

        "I thought you agreed that a person is born with rights, that he has them just because he's human and it can't be reliant on another person to exercise them. Did you agree with that?"

        "No, yes but ..."

        "If the naked hungry guy in the pasture can't have his food and clothes without taking them from another person then how can they be basic human rights?"

        "They just are! They must be, he needs them!"

        "Think of every item in the Bill of Rights. Speech, religion, defense, assembly, non-self incrimination, security of your possessions... All of those are possible without anyone else around."

        I don't know what will happen next. Agreement (unlikely), shouting irrelevancies (mighty possible), accusations that you're a heartless bastard (oh no, not again!). That person will probably hate you, shutter different parts of his brain from each other, stick his fingers in his ears and say "lalalalala."

        Then you can just shake your head with yet another affirmation that we're probably doomed.
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  • Posted by barwick11 6 years, 1 month ago
    I really think the Conservative talking points to counter the liberals' "you just hate the poor and favor those evil corporations" crap, should be...

    1) Liberals lie.
    2) Democrats are the party of lawyers.

    #1 is plainly apparent, especially with BO. Hammer it home, and then all you have to say is "you're lying", and if it's ingrained in people's minds, it's like them hearing liberal's line of "you're the party of the rich", people just believe that BS because they've repeated it enough. Fine, now they'll immediately believe us when we say "you're lying". Because, almost always, if a liberals' mouth is moving, they're lying.

    #2 is because EVERYONE hates lawyers.
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