That is impressive. Scary as heck, but impressive. Mamabear was probably watching what you were doing out of curiosity - they are pretty smart creatures, I watched one once push the button latch on a car door to open it, to get at whatever was inside to get to whatever it was after... had to learn that one from somewhere. Maybe it wanted to learn how to garden... --lol--

it is unbelievable.

hey, educate me on this. so before Islam, the region was christian, jewish, pagan? In the first 100 years or so Of Islam, there were incredible advances in mathematics and science. They preserved the works of Aristotle, etc. what happened?

#1 is exactly correct. Otherwise a known Islamist radical would not have been promoted in the Army, and would not be charged with Work Place Violence instead of terrorism. The Chain of Command was to afraid to speak up about this guy. What does that say about the ability of our Army if the Commanding Generals are woosies and wimps?

I think I disagree. I posted more above. there has to be something between nice and impalement of tens of thousands.

Nicely put, US. Under the guise of having to be accepting to *everyone*, we are the eagle whose own feathers are the fletching for the arrow that brings it down.

And the whole thing about death to the infidel - literally, those who do not keep fidelity to islam once sucked into it - is brutal fact. Actually, anyone who says bad things about Mohammad can be put under a Fatwah - so you don't even have to be islamic to be put to death by them.

My other half spent almost 2 decades deep in the "cradle of Islam", where there was a constant pressure to "convert"... the whole "death to the infidel" thing, along with devotion to Christianity, was enough to keep the temptation at bay... but it's amazing the rosy picture they paint.

Of course, it's all taliored to whoever's being recruited - an old roommate back in my evil liberal days was sucked in because he was told it is a religion for the poor, the disadvantaged, the downtrodden, and the opressed... (Kinda sounds like Socialistic drivel, eh?) - My hunny, who was an engineer, was told it was a religion that cherished knowledge, intelligence, and prosperity. The woman who ran the AM/PM Quickymart down the street from our old place (who was a widow, BTW) told me how it was a religion that values and cherishes women, how it makes you feel safe and protected...

Or, it's message is exactly whatever they want you to hear. Oh yeah - if you flat reject it, or put facts of this hyprocracy in their face, you become one of the enemy. So you get your choice - be one of the converted, or pursued to be converted, or one of the harrahm - forbidden.

For number 1. Politically Correct Generals. They are owned. Islamic influence on our policy-making department is what caused the change.

Ditto on 2 and 3. Yep, all dumb.

Ultimately, it sure seems like that will be the only way to get the thugs to change. Being nice and using reason & logic will only lead to our defeat. You may be able to change a few of them using that tactic, but what about the rest who only want to see your blood?

1. militarily we're using the tactics of big army run by big generals. dumb and slow. what happened to the tactics used in AFg the first three to four months of engagement.
2.must beat the ideology with economic freedom. Ireland was divided in a bitter religious struggle. When Thatcher freed up the economy and imposed the rule of law, what do you know? the average irish person would rather build a happy, productive middle class life than war..Sound Constitution. what did we do? we let them set up a islamic theocracy.
double dumb.
3.where is the propaganda battle? we are so pc we do not demand freedom of religion, speech in their constitution. TV and radio constantly showing what we are fighting for. most importantly, we are not vigilant about these ideas in our own country. we have an Islamic loving president.

are you suggesting vlad -like tactics? because I'd like to think we could win against Islam and still come out human :)

This thread has been a breath of fresh air for me. I just finished reading it all.
I was thinking it would be possible in remote areas of Alaska, Canada, or some such place. There are huge parts of the world that are uninhabited. Probably because of the six months of hellish winter... :p

"contribute to my society full out"
bigdog. you need to be contributing to yourself full out. by doing that, society benefits. have you read AS? what do you mean by sanctuary?

Ideally, I would find a sanctuary. While I am not a genius in terms of creating things, I believe I can be useful by providing ideas, Etc. I am also not afraid to work to my ability, and would want to contribute to my society full out.

One day Rocky I may take you up on that.

I never assumed you were a 'cut and run' kind of person, but did wonder why you never re-engaged. I agree with some of your points and others I don't. I totally agree with your view on what the Soviets did to the smart people, thus creating an intellectual vacuum that left them unable to ever keep up with us. Your mention about the opportunity of democracy and their ensuing confusion was exemplified by the citizens of East Germany when they were united with West Germany. The effects and frustration by both sides are still being felt today.

Now, with Islam, it is not repent or die, it's submit (convert) or die. Repentance is a Christian doctrine, not Islamic. Dealing with Islam is NOT difficult, it only requires an honest look at what it really is about. But remember what the TRUTH is in Islam? If it DOESN'T advance the cause of Islam it's considered BLASPHEMY. Who says? Mohammed says.

Once you accept what Mohammed commanded his followers on his deathbed, and that the Koran, the Sura, and the Hadiths can NEVER be changed, you'll know what you need to do to defeat it. To do so, requires something that Political Correctness is effectively killing: COURAGE.

I'm sure you recall some idea about Vlad The Impaler from the area of Eastern Europe near present-day Romania/Bulgaria. What the dhimmi-historians and history books never admitted was where exactly did Vlad learn to be so sadistic? Ready?

From the Muslim conquerors. You can do the research. But here's the spoiler: Vlad single-handedly prevented an early conquering of Europe when he out-terrorized the muslims by impaling roughly 20,000 of captured muslims on stakes and had them set up in a "forest" of dead bodies on both sides of the trail that led to his fortress. The muslim invaders had enough and turned around.

Vlad intimately knew the ideology the muslims followed. He knew exactly how to defeat them and it worked. Instead of recognizing Vlad's amazing strategy, the european historians conveniently omitted (dhimmitude) the source of Vlad's "cruelty" and whom he turned back.

What did Ayn Rand say about people who want to use force on her to achieve their will? She would respond with Force as well! To think we will defeat Islam using any tactic other than force is futile. I would put all my $$ on the muslims victory over anyone who thinks they can beat them using reason, logic, and appeasement. 1400 years of Islamic doctrine of war (Jihad) against the West hasn't been beaten yet. Who'll rise up and finally lead us into victory? You and I, and kathywiso. =)

And it starts with learning the truth about Islam. Islamic doctrine is the same, all around the world, it doesn't change. The strategy to beating it is the same as well. This is a bottom-up approach. Our "leaders" will not do it for us.

When you're ready Trackman I'll welcome you to Montana. My valley reminds me a great deal of how the gulch is described. We can grow, raise, shoot or pick food. Lots of clean water. Lots of space.

Interesting niche you have for your business.

1. we had to stop producing it because of regs and EPA. 2. Then they we find someone to produce it and our govt slaps tariffs on it. In fairness, China does that to us.
govt will get you coming and going :)

Certainly makes me think of Dagny trying to find Locomotive parts and Engines. Humbly, I will admit that i'm no Dagny and I'm not running Taggart. But it is MINE! :-)

Our relationships and long history of writing a check when the bill is due affords me the ability to pay much less than a big box competitor for the same exact product. However for the first time this year we have felt product shortages on certain items that vendors cannot fill.

1. Being Stainless steel sinks. There is not a single vendor in the US that makes SS sinks. We order them from a company that Imports them from China. Well our Fabulous Gov' wanted China to "play fair" so they hit them with a Retroactive tax of 67% because of their dumping policies with SS. Because the tax is retroactive they won't just add the new tax to the cost. If they sell me a container and the powers that be decide that the penalty is not stiff enough they will have to pay the duty for current sales and previous shipments.

2. The second is cabinet grade plywood. China is being hit with a 27% tax on all plywood as well. (Noticed lumber prices lately). Rough stuff can be milled here in the states easily enough but the labor involved in cabinet grade plywood requires more than just machines. It requires bodies to make sure things are going as planned. China owns this market. Have not run across shortages but lead times have increased and costs are going up.

interesting points, trackman. and it's an intriguing niche you've found in which to build your business.
"If I decided to give up I would close my business."
I suppose the urgency of a collapse plays well into that, but are your skills honed in this business dependent on relationships in getting your supplies? Or is it more of a formula in meeting the demand of your customers? Outside the country, there is great demand for such a formula. Although labor is cheap in central america, materials tend to be expensive-
have you considered such options?

Fascinating discussion but I will try and take a few moments to address the original question.

In todays age I believe it would be impossible to dissapear to your own personal Atlantis. Not to mention that the Government has grown so large they they can now keep citizens under surveilence. In coming years as things get harder and possibly collapse, those prepared and thriving are not going to be willing to share. The political machine and media will brand them as "domestic terrorists". Simply because of a few hot heads in this group will talk big and maybe even attempt something stupid.

If I decided to give up I would close my business. I run a discount building supply store. We cater to bottom feeders to upper middle class and help them to get materials that they couldn't afford at a Lowes or Home Depot in which we compete with directly. My store employs 5 partners and indirectly provides employment for about 200 contractors and companies in my surrounding area. Developers that use us are able to sell new houses with a better margin while installing better quality goods.

I am too young and have not reached the point where I can just close up shop and move to a place where I can dissapear and live off the land. (Like a personal ranch in Montana.) Eventually though....

you have mistaken my comments - the US government has failed to set the enemy and therefore establish the strategy and tactics necessary to win in afganistan. between tribalism and islam, we have a nearly unique pairing of problems that require thoroughness and patience that even alexander couldn't muster. it is therefore highly unlikely that we will. with islam we start as infidels (repent or die). with tribalism, we are not in the family. it is a lose lose proposition. we shouldn't be there to begin with. soviet glasnosc and perestroika may have been necessary, but like a patient undergoing open heart surgery in the 1800s, the patient will die. the soviets killed off all of the intelligentsia they could leaving a gene pool that only understands the jack boot of an authoritarian power on its neck. Once given the opportunity for democracy, they do not have the wherewithall to know what to do with it. As you describe, we did not defeat the soviets through military efforts alone (the military was merely a set piece in this game) but through containment and outspending the soviets. That strategy was set in place during a time when there was at least some consensus in the government - that couldn't be turned around by the progressives (totalitarian tendencies or our nanny state leftists) before it was too late (despite the lion of the senates overtures to the soviets).

my comments on not being smarter were focused on your apparent positioning of the US as smarter, not the members of the gulch...to get here you must recognize that for the last 100+ (at least) years our elected leaders and bureaucrats have conspired us. every law passed or regulation imposed is part of the assault on our freedom.

As you can see, I have no illusions on islam or south west asian tribalism. How to best correctly engage them (direct frontal attack, or containment like) remains to be seen, and is different for each geographic region (i.e., tribalism and other factors)

Sorry for not re-engaging sooner, I have been working hard to produce for my family.

I have a couple of thoughts on this. None of the strikers actually became drains on the system. They simply stopped producing any surplus that could support anyone other than themselves. ( in the outside world ) . This works the same as Malicious Compliance. To be maliciously compliant you really only need to withdraw support of the system. In the book the strikers stopped doing what they do best to support the system, and instead took the lowest jobs. This is actually pretty workable in the present. It would take planning. First, pay off everything. In particular your credit cards, student loans, car loans, and finally your house. Next, figure out what you would need on hand to live and save that up. The final step, stop what you are used to doing, take a job as a dishwasher, or clean hotel rooms, or be the engineer who digs ditches. What we really need is a way to trade our actual skills in a way that the looters cannot so easily track. For this I find myself wondering if something like bitcoin might be the answer?
In the meantime there needs to be a place to escape to.