The God of the Machine - Tranche 16

Posted by mshupe 1 year, 9 months ago to Government
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Chapter VIII, Excerpt 1 of 1
The Fallacy of Anarchism

Government originates in the moral faculty. The essence of self-government consists in keeping promises; the formal organization is instituted by agreement, and the power is delegated for the purpose of maintaining contract freely entered . . . embodied in the constitution, and private contracts between individuals. The mode of the conversion of energy must correspond to the mode of association. Anarchy is practicable only to savagery. Force is what is governed.

But war and leadership seem to by synchronous. A regime of popularity is effective for starting a war; and indeed, must do so. The error can be maintained only by rejecting the facts of savage behavior and the specific testimony of intelligent savages as to the purpose of the council of war. Primitive war can be begun and carried on by impulse of fighting men. They are the force. In no case could the council apply force. They simply had none.

The initial truth is brought to light whenever citizen or subject is sufficiently determined; force cannot compel obedience in the social order. What it can effect is death, whether of subject or king. Leadership is obliged to justify itself daily. In a settled and productive society, continuity is necessary, with the time space factor in economics. While industry got up steam during the nineteenth century, political changes were in reverse, more power accruing to government under ‘socializing’ measures.


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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Good question. I thought about it but didn't come up with a solution yet. Shit happens, what are you going to do?

    The right thing to do would be to have that person pay off as much as possible, regardless of whether the whole thing can be paid off or not. Obviously, they would have to work to pay it off into the future, possibly until death.

    One off the wall idea is to have the perpetrator birth children and have them pay off the damage until it is fully paid off, but that is morally questionable. Also, probably not very practical.

    Another idea is to invent life extension technology.

    The wrong thing to do would be to put that person in prison for life.
    1. The tax payers are going to pay the prison expenses. What did they ever do to deserve this?
    2. The victim doesn't get anything back.
    3. The perpetrator is forced into a situation in which they are not very productive. Why not allow them to do what they are good at and use the labor to repay damages?

    Imprisonment should be avoided if possible. Maybe have that person go through some sort of rehab where they admit wrongdoing, admit their debt to the victim and agree to rejoin society as normal, and have them devote themselves to repaying damages. If they don't admit anything and the wrongdoing is proven beyond reasonable doubt then we can allow them to be forced to work it off in some sort of labor camp that would maximize wages of the imprisoned (and redirect them to the victim after taking out the expenses).

    Death penalty is just stupid IMHO. Why waste a perfectly good body?
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  • Posted by VetteGuy 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So what should be done in cases where repayment is not possible (the perpetrator has insufficient funds), or the perpetrator refuses?

    Just shrug and say "oh well" ?
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    By masses I mean the majority, not that they are collectivist. Although, I guess some of them might be.

    Yes, it would be great to finally leave this madhouse and move to space. It would require certain technologies but looks like those are slowly getting developed.
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  • Posted by mhubb 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    masses == communism
    does not work

    the basic problem is people suck
    and with too many people, you get a mess
    as we see in the United States now

    in the past it kinda worked as people could walk away
    now, no place to walk away to....

    getting people off the Earth will open new places to walk away to

    and like mined people can gather
    until then, we will have war, strife
    as this planet is too small
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It would be better for the masses to institute a universal law and abolish statism than for the tree of liberty to be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants.
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would interpret oath breaking you speak of as simple corruption (predation).

    Predation in society always tends upwards unless there is a force that is destroying it, such as a war. You see, when there is a very low amount of prey (productive people), predators start going after each other (war, societal collapse). They almost completely exterminate themselves such that only the very small amount of productive people are left. Society can then restart with nearly zero predation.

    I think my theory better explains the current situation than just people being fat and lazy.

    The state is a predator, by the way. You have been warned.
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I did say violence for self-defense is allowed, so I guess there is that.

    You, on the other hand, advocate for state violence (without any justifiable reason). So, I would consider you in the wrong here.
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My argument is that government forces itself onto people by violence and trickery. You just think it was people that made the government, but that is clearly government propaganda, at least clear to me. The masses are brainwashed. How can a sane person condone all the bad shit government does?
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  • Posted by mhubb 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    yup
    you are missing lots

    the basic issue is that We the People have grown fat and lazy and life has become way too easy so people have let stuff grow out of hand

    and those that swore Oath site on their hands doing nothing

    so now the a major swing has to happen the other way...
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I believe blowing people up for uni-bomber reasons would go against my views, so, I'm not seeing how your comparison is relevant.
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am not advocating for force/violence, quite the opposite.

    If you read some of my other posts elsewhere, you might get a better idea.

    I propose that there is a universal law system that can be derived from basic axioms, such as the golden rule, by applying logic and reason. One of the laws is the immorality of violence (except maybe for self-defense). My view is that state is illegal/immoral according to this universal law because it uses violence to force people to do stuff (without it being self-defense).

    You may have a state that adheres to this universal law but it might as well be a private security firm at that point due to fact that it wouldn't have any special (immoral) privileges that you, the masses, are currently giving the state.

    I don't see how my ideas of the universal law and prohibition of all-powerful monopoly criminal organization (the state) would suddenly cause all productivity and innovation to cease, supply networks and energy flows to stop and tribal competition and warfare to begin. The enforceable standard would be the universal law derived at by logic and reason with logic proofs available for everyone to check (and not corrupt statist legislature deciding laws on a whim). I agree with you that force is bad but I disagree with you that only a single (prone to corruption) organization (the state) is allowed to bestow it.
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  • Posted by mhubb 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    people make government for a reason

    go make you own
    get like minded people
    if you can find enough
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I have developed a particular world view and I am trying to test it by having you guys argue against it but it seems all I'm getting is baseless accusations.
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Which words in particular are you having an issue with?

    May I remind you that ad hominem is against the rules?
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 1 year, 9 months ago
    In the foreward to her Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, Ayn Rand quoted from American Pragmatism: Pierce, James, & Dewey written by Edward C. Moore “All knowledge is in terms of concepts. If these concepts correspond to something that is to be found in reality they are real and man’s knowledge has a foundation in fact; If they do not correspond to anything in reality they are not real and man’s knowledge is of mere figments of his own imagination”

    Clearly, nonconformist is using words disconnected from reality, no concepts needed – a word salad similarly employed by the Vice President.

    You’ve done a good thing bringing this book to this venue. Please stop responding to this fool. You are just wasting your valuable time. You are boxing with fog.
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  • Posted by mhubb 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    ROTFLMAO

    nice try skippy
    try again....
    or
    don't bother

    clearly you are goading people

    read the US Dec of Independence for a clue
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  • Posted by 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Because your case rests on force over reason. It ignores the conditions necessary for productivity and innovation. It allows for compromise with irrational ideas and behavior. To think that thousands or millions of private security firms would maintain the supply networks and energy flow is not rational. It would become tribal competition and warfare. There would be no enforceable standards to solve the complexity of time and space. In essence, human vitality requires liberty over time and space. Force paralyzes and negates that. We agree on the current state of American justice and culture.
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  • Posted by nonconformist 1 year, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Governments are notorious for barely being able to function. So, the government that can't do anything right all the sudden gained competency in protecting rights?

    How is competition good for the private sector but not good for things like security?

    Let's say a private security firm that was granted a contract to provide security for a city screws up. They would be fired and replaced with somebody more competent. Try doing that with your government agency. You'd probably end up in jail or killed.

    Am I missing something?
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