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The Lack of Shame

Posted by Shrugger 1 year, 11 months ago to Politics
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The Lack of Shame

121107 jn

This is a true story. It happened exactly as described.

It was around noon on election day, November 6, 2012. I was sitting in McDonalds. A group of old retired men were enthusiastically talking about the election... saying nothing of note, but with much ignorance and stupidity. I stayed out of it. An employee of McDonalds was clearing a nearby table and quietly said to me, "This has been going on all day... I can't wait for this election to be over."

A couple was waiting in line. They were a typical, mid-forties, white, middle class couple. They were listening to the old guys discussing the election and the state of the union in general.

One of the retired guys said something negative about "Obama-Care" and the middle-class white guy in line turned to him suddenly and said, "Oh yeah, well I'll have you know that if it wasn't for Obama's healthcare plan, I wouldn't have any health insurance right now."

This silenced the old guys. He continued, appearing to speak to the room in general, "Obama made it possible for me to cut the cost of my insurance by over 80%, so I voted for him again."

The entire room was silent. Nobody said a word. Before I knew what I was doing, I heard myself addressing him.

"You actually sound like you're proud of that", I said.

"You're damn right I am," he replied indignantly.

"In other words, you're proud of the fact that instead of paying for your health insurance yourself, you and Obama have ganged up on ME and have forced me, at the point of a gun, to pay for part of your health insurance. You're actually PROUD of the fact that you are mooching off of me and all those people working behind the counter in McDonald's... that you're part of a gang that is using the power of the government to FORCE us to pay for your healthcare. Instead of feeling ashamed... instead of bowing your head and cowering in front of all the people you are depending on to pay for your healthcare insurance... instead of meekly thanking them for the sacrifices they are being forced to make in order to benefit YOU... instead, you stand there claiming that you're PROUD! What do you have to be PROUD of? Are you proud of the fact that you're unable or unwilling to take care of yourself? Are you proud of the fact that you're stealing part of their wages for your own personal greed? No... shame is what you should feel. Disgrace... embarassment... and gratitude... along with a strong dose of remorse... because YOU can't or won't take care of yourself and so you joined a mob of others who can't or won't take care of themselves... and together you've figured out how to force US to take care of you. Shame on you."

Nobody said a word. The guy was stunned and his wife stood there mortified. The room was absolutely silent for a moment, then one of the retired guys started clapping... and within a few seconds, he was joined by another... then by someone across the restaurant... and pretty soon it sounded like the entire restaurant was applauding.

I had delivered my little sermon while still seated at my table. I remained seated and looked down at my meal... angry at myself for having lost my temper and butting in rather than minding my own damn business.

Within a minute or so, the room quieted down again and everyone went about their business, pretending nothing had happenned.

Then I heard the guy quietly say to the McDonald's counter person, "Can I change my order... I'd like that, to-go please."


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  • 10
    Posted by itisntluck 1 year, 11 months ago
    I would have paid $5000.00 in gold to have been there, but having gone "Galt" myself almost four years ago, I can understand why you lost your temper. I no longer get angry, that time has passed. Now, I'm just amused.
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    • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
      I went Galt because nobody else just took the licking and whimpered and complained but had not the backbone to ACTUALLY take any action.
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    • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
      Which means you are "indifferent".
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      • Posted by itisntluck 1 year, 11 months ago
        For a long time now.
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        • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
          I understand that. But if you thought there was a way to be effective, would you still be indifferent?
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          • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
            Being sneaky (Stealthy) can be done. Play the game but sabotage them in any way you can. If they offer a hand out from the government take it. The sooner we bleed this monstrosity dry the sooner we will come out the other side.. Resist and you will only drag out the pain and our infrastructure will have deteriorated so bad it would be hundreds of time more expensive to fix it. Kill it and get it over with ASAP.
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            • -1
              Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 10 months ago
              Exactly. The one time I spent with a group at Murray Rothbard's apartment in NYC he said the same. I had asked him why he lived in a rent controlled apt and your answer is the one he gave me. This is also Nietzsche's advice in pushing to the limit to push it over into the abyss. Baudrillard follows Nietzsche saying to force it to suicide. DeLillo says the same in Cosmopolis by following Baudrillard and Nietzsche to destroy cyber-capital (as opposed to free enterprise with a product). Rand follows Nietzsche as he was her only mentor explained by Zizek in his JARS article http://aynrand2.blogspot.com/2012/05/ziz... of Rand's over identification with capital. He does not know her lifetime attachment to Nietzsche, however, her being more capitalist than any capitalist, "worse" as Nietzsche says. Her acolyte Greenspan unleashed cyber-capital - "floating capital" - on the world, pure speculation with no product which was not what Rand ever meant but she had not read Marx's Grundisse carefully enough.

              BTW do you know the financial forecasting work of Martin Armstrong? For 33 years he has never missed a turn. He is the real deal. He understands that there is no such thing as money, that currencies float against each other, that's all. http://armstrongeconomics.com/ Now the nasties will really come after me.
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              • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
                I do no rely on US Paper "Funny Money" I deal in cold hard cash - If you know what I mean.
                My income comes to my bank and I take all out immediately except for a very small amount to pay utility bills. The rest I sock away for the day the banks close down. Right now I have 4 brick in my bank vault because when the come to take that they ARE REALLY GOING TO BE PISSED.
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                • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 10 months ago
                  Read Armstrong on cold hard cash, if you know what I mean. What is coming is massive deflation so you will have paid too much for that hard cold cash.
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                  • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
                    paper money will deflate but real money will always rise to the level where one retains what they once had in buying power. (I am talking about gold and silver).
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                    • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 10 months ago
                      So that means you got 24% on your money. (Rule of 72) Now how could you have gotten 200% or more on your money. You might have had to do a little work tho. Here's one example of what I did: I bought Von Mises last book on Value (forget the exact title now) for 25 cents at a library sale and sold it in 2 weeks for $11.00 plus some postage rebate at Amazon. Not much work but a little and the recognition of good literature from a lifetime of enjoyable learning paid off some. A Korean dictionary from the DAV for 25 cents on 25 cents day for $50.00. Gold bullion for investment makes sense if you really have a ton of money to protect. Soros is buying lately and he has a ton of money and now probably a ton of gold bullion. Coins are more expensive as they have been made into a commodity so thre is a premium on them. But we are headed into an inflationary depression which is a different ball of wax. Your gold is worth what it has always been worth, the $ has just gone down from paper presses printing 24/7 trying to stave off the inevitable. If you are talking about a few thousand $ then you were foolish. But if you do't understand the financial markets one makes foolish mistakes. Why they don't want you to understand the financial markets. Did you know not one university in the US teaches hedge fund management? Interesting? There are 2 places where you can catch up: The paper on Assange and wikileaks on 100% surveillance and www.armstrongeconomics.com Read all of Martin Armstrong's papers and you will really be way ahead of the game. He is a true Randian, no govt interference and he has not been wrong on any turn for 33 years, as I have been wtching him since his puppy days starting with gold and silver. He spend more than a decade in solitary confinement, almost dying, because he refused to turn over his computer modeling to the US govt.
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                    • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
                      My holdings are now worth almost twice their real value as to when I purchased them 3 years ago. The paper money is worth less (Much Less) as all prices in the stores have risen considerably lately.
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                      • Posted by  $  khalling 1 year, 10 months ago
                        what is your stance on where the value of land is headed?
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                        • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 10 months ago
                          If it is farmland it will be valuable because then you will eat if you know anything about growing food. To turn over, forget it. It is unmortgageable. Only local banks will mortgage land unless you have lots of cash in CD's or something as collateral and can borrow from your own bank in your own state. The best way is to start going to auctions to sniff it out. If you have the cas, this is the way to go. Then you can go to ebay and if you know how to write copy you can double or triple your investment AS LONG AS YOU HOLD THE MORTGAGE. Woods and Water in Willow Springs MO started doing this 20 years ago. I knew they were the smartest people here in MO. He would buy a piece, roughly survey it into 5-10 acre pieces, advertise in Mother Earth, Organic Gardening classifieds, do down, hold the mortgage, with covenants on Contract for Deed (no foreclosure problems) and he bough cheaper than cheap, sold cheap, and made millions starting in his living room, never showing properties, just a map, go look for yourself. Easy 1,2,3 lesson plan. This is just a fraction of what you need to know.
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                        • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
                          Land can be worth quite a bit but purchase wisely. Do You have a strategic location, a specific intent for its use. Are you going to farm on it? Are you going to live on it?

                          Don't buy land unless you know how it can best be used.
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          • Posted by itisntluck 1 year, 11 months ago
            Effective? In what way?
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            • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
              Being sneaky (Stealthy) can be done. Play the game but sabotage them in any way you can. If they offer a hand out from the government take it. The sooner we bleed this monstrosity dry the sooner we will come out the other side.. Resist and you will only drag out the pain and our infrastructure will have deteriorated so bad it would be hundreds of time more expensive to fix it. Kill it and get it over with ASAP.
              Reply | Permalink  
            • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
              What do you want to impact?
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              • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
                I want to impact the leaches even if I have to become one in the process. I want the system to collapse ASAP so that we can get back to our freedoms and liberty before we are totally torn apart by our enemies from within and from without.
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                • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 10 months ago
                  That's DeLillo's message in Cosmopolis. This is what Baudrillard says, "If capital is to be destroyed it will have to be destroyed by capital." And by capital here we are talking about capital with no product, and all the govt interference that goes with it. Anyway read a really good economist Martin Armstrong. www.armstrongeconomics.com If you have a lot of money go to one of his conferences (cost:2000 US).
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                  • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
                    I have read his works and that of others who think just like he does. My money will be safe and I will live comfortably AND I will also keep leaching off the Government every chance I get to speed up the crash.
                    THANKS and Bless you and yours.......
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  • Posted by kyates3 1 year, 11 months ago
    I'm currently a college student studying engineering. Yes, I got scholarships for school tuition, but I still work as much as I can to make it. During the summer I worked two jobs and literally never took a day off except a few days where I was ill. My dad died when I was young, and my mom worked three jobs to support her three children; my sister, my brother, and I. To moochers like that guy, I would like to give them a swift kick in the ass.
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    • Posted by wgingram1 1 year, 10 months ago
      you are going to work your arse off for the benefit of others. Do as John Galt and take a menial job which benefits nobody in government while you build your skills and knowledge so that when the time is right you can be in the forefront of the recovery.
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  • Posted by Nietzsche 1 year, 11 months ago
    Add my applause.

    In these times unfortunately, moochers have no shame. They live by a new creed, "Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask rather how much you can mooch from your countrymen."

    Just wait until Obamacare really kicks in and employers all discontinue their health plans in favor of the state and Fed exchanges. Few will pay for insurance until they get sick (the penalty being lower than premiums), then, since pre-existing conditions cannot be considered, they will jump into the pool as they take out an order of magnitude more benefits than they ever pay in. They will see nothing wrong with this because it is legal and cost effective to them. Maybe not to the rest of the tax paying public, but why care about them?
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    • 11
      Posted by 1 year, 11 months ago
      I agree that moochers have no shame... but I hope all of you here in the Gulch get the true point of my post... along with the TRUE point of Atlas Shrugged.

      My point here is that, until I pointed out to this particular moocher that the appropriate response to his situation should be SHAME, he had NO IDEA!

      He has been living under the false assumption that he has these benefits coming to him... that he is entitled to these benefits.

      Why does he have these assumptions?

      I submit that it is the fault of all those who have continued to support a society that fosters that mentality... by compromising with that society and hoping to manage to get along.

      Very few readers of Atlas Shrugged come away understanding Ayn Rand's main point in the book.

      Yes... they get the individualistic tone, and they appreciate the message regarding the difference between the "good-guy" producers vs. the "bad-guy" moochers... but her main point was first stated during the cocktail party where Francisco asked Rearden that all-important question:

      "Who is the guiltiest man in the room?"

      Unless and until you ask yourselves that question... and answer it rationally... you'll continue to blame the moochers and expect them to change.

      You'll continue to feel frustrated and angry and sad and all the other emotions that come with viewing irrationality... but you'll be looking in the wrong direction.

      WHY should the moochers act any differently than they do? Out of FAIRNESS to you?

      No... they will continue to expect all of you to provide them with all their goodies until you, INDIVIDUALLY... say NO MORE!

      No election will ever solve this problem.

      Human nature will not change because you want it to.

      Nietzsche... I'm not pointing this diatribe at you... based on other posts I have read from you, I think you are much more of a rational thinker than most of the members of the "Gultch".

      If YOU... the presumably enlightened ones... continue to compromise... if you continue to act like Dagny and Rearden did... instead of emulating Galt himself... YOU will continue to be the problem!
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      • Posted by Nietzsche 1 year, 11 months ago
        I believe that it is in our genes to scavenge when we can and hunt when we must. Instincts are natural, but values are learned. In my younger days, I spent some time in Europe and by chance managed to get acquainted with a gypsy troupe. They were entertainers and beggars. Some days the children would play accordion and dance, other days they would dress in rags and go out begging complete with affected limp and crutch. They travelled from city to city in four Mercedes sedans and daily converted their takings into gold Swiss Francs at the money changers. They were looked down upon by city locals, but took great personal pride in how they made a living. They felt no shame. They came from a long line of Gypsies and it was part of their culture.

        In the 50's, when Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged, most people would have been embarrassed to take Relief and even bums going door to door (we lived along a railroad track, so I met quite a few) always asked if you had some chores they could perform in order to earn a meal. I never experienced anyone who just asked for a handout until I visited New York in the mid 60s. Our present society is programmed to accept handouts as a matter of course. Not being forced to hunt, the moochers choose to scavenge.

        Perhaps the individual in your story felt shame, but I wonder. He was probably embarrassed, but that was more likely as a result of the crowd reaction. I doubt that he had any epiphany regarding personal responsibility. Atlas Shrugged is a novel set in a contrived fictional environment. With a wealthy patron, a force field and a secret valley, withdrawal may be an option. I do not have that option. If I refuse to pay my taxes, they will ultimately take my house. I did drop out of corporate America in disgust several years ago, but my old company has continued just fine without me and I experienced a severe drop in income. I am now self employed just scraping by. Saying "NO MORE!" is easy. Doing no more is bit more difficult.

        I suppose you could withdraw to one of those survivalist compounds in Idaho, if they would let you in, but there is no force field and the authorities know exactly where the compounds are. This is a complex society and if things ever do crumble, there will be deaths in the thousands by the end of the second month and millions by the end of a year. Our population has grown to a point where it cannot be sustained without the present technological and social structure.

        I do not believe that you have to change human nature in order to instill values. Some people will not change, but some will. We seen this throughout history time and again. Ultimately the tipping point will come when like minds acting in consort will affect a significant change or the society will fall. We have such an inertia in our present system, that I believe it will take a crisis to precipitate significant change. Perhaps it will be gas at $46.00 a gallon, perhaps that crisis will come when the entitlement checks start to bounce and the moochers realize there really is no more. Then they will hunt. I have no doubt about it.


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        • Posted by  $  LetsShrug 1 year, 11 months ago
          I was just talking to my Mom about this....where is the tipping point. We agreed that most wouldn't "get it" even if the bottom completely falls out. Let it be their demise when there is no one left to take from that will LET them take. I have no doubt they will go on the hunt, but the prey will be ready.
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          • Posted by Nietzsche 1 year, 11 months ago
            For America it was one tax too many and the martialing of the British regulars to Concord. For the French it was the food riots and storming of the Bastille. For the Russians, the Bolsheviks storming of the Czar's palace. For the Chinese the Boxer revolt. For each society events culminate to create a common sentiment producing its own leadership. This can be a messy process and usually comes without apparent warning. Look at the fall of Soviet Russia. It was there and all of a sudden it wasn't. All things considered, this is one of the most amazing social reformations of this generation. Communism gave way to a form of capitalism in a less than a year! Their society is still in transition and nowhere near as stable as our democracy and there are still many who look back with nostalgia to the caretaker Communist regime, but capitalism now drives the Russian economy. My point is that the cream will rise when given the opportunity. You cannot tell what the tipping point is until it happens and you are right, most will never get it. The 80/ 20 rule is a repeating theme throughout history. 20% of the people are responsible for 80% of the production. I do not believe that will ever change. That is why Utopian societies fail. From Brook Farm to the United Order, there are producers and moochers. The producers eventually get fed up and the commune disintegrates.
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            • Posted by  $  LetsShrug 1 year, 11 months ago
              Excellent information. Thank you. I have been thinking about a lot of things and what changes I can make in myself. There is much (well, not THAT much), but definitely some work to be done. I'm getting a game plan in order and I am excited to get started.
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      • Posted by ProudAmerican 1 year, 11 months ago
        The only thing I wish to add to your comments is I regret you didn't mention the retired gentlemen's Medicare, that they had worked hard and paid for, will have their coverage reduced and copays raised to pay for the savings the couple will enjoy. That's if they are allowed by the IPAB.
        The retired and on a fixed income citizens are the ones who are going to pay dear for those who refuse to have good work ethics.
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      • Posted by Morry 1 year, 11 months ago
        OR, also in short:

        DON'T BE AFRAID TO NAME THE ISSUE. Remember the power of a moral sanction -- or the withdrawal of same.
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      • Posted by Morry 1 year, 11 months ago
        In short:

        All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.
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      • Posted by itisntluck 1 year, 11 months ago
        "Who is the guiltiest man in the room?"
        There it is, Shrugger. That sums it all up. The sanction of the victim.
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  • Posted by radical 1 year, 11 months ago
    The quickest, and maybe the only way, to shut down the current welfare-state is to all become moochers by reducing our income to low or no-tax levels and then aggressively demanding handouts. This will bankrupt the system, and then we can trace the sign of the dollar over the land once again. This is not an easy choice, but anything that will work will demand a lot of non-altruistic sacrifice.
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    • Posted by hdmtnryder 1 year, 11 months ago
      I have already decided to apply for disability. Time to ride obama's back for awhile.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 11 months ago
      This is probably the bravest post I have read here in the Gultch.
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  • Posted by zaticon1 1 year, 11 months ago
    Hi, I've just joined after being pointed here by a dear friend. I live in the enchanted land of California where reality and logic are the stuff of legend. I love the McDonalds story. I'm not sure, though, if there are enough clear thinking people left to put the brakes on this mess we're in. Look at what happened out here. In THIS economy, these nutballs just voted to raise their own taxes RETROACTIVE TO LAST YEAR! Tomorrow, cap and trade goes into effect. I would love to believe that, when all this fails, people will come to their senses and change course. But, the last 4 years should have been enough to cause this and look at what happened, last week. (Even though the exit polls claimed that most of the voters believed that the country was on the wrong track. :-/?) Of course, one can hope that, when Big Daddy Governmment can no longer deliver the goods, the system will collapse or the people will revolt. Revolutions, however, don't always leave a country better off than it was. We succeeded because we had a band of courageous geniuses steering our course. France was not so fortunate. Neither was the Soviet Union. We'll see what happens. I make my living from commercial real estate. Over the next few years, I'm going to aggressively pay down my two modest mortgages. Then, when I no longer need a large cash flow, I'll reduce my tenants rent to a point no higher than I need to survive. I will never buy another square foot of land, nor will ever put up another building as long as things stand as they are. Count me in With Applebee's, Papa John's and all the rest. We're all John Galt, now. Norm
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    • Posted by rfcf2 1 year, 10 months ago
      Please elaborate (educate me) on this sentence: Count me in With Applebee's, Papa John's and all the rest. What is Applebee and Papa John doing? No longer expanding? Thanks!
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  • Posted by keeponshrugging 1 year, 11 months ago
    I have been trying to figure out ways that we can all "shrug". Good going Shrugger! There is nothing wrong with righteous anger. I'm not surprised that the last election left us in the same boat we were already in. I don't know if Romney could have saved the country or not. However, it is the response-ability of ALL of us to turn our country around so may be it's appropriate that the status quo hasn't changed. It's our time -- we've all got to stand up and SHRUG. So here's a Shrug List I've started from this thread:

    1. Confront bragging moochers.
    2. Refuse to do business with moochers. (thanks Timelord)

    Please add to the list everyone!
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    • Posted by upsidedownjack 1 year, 11 months ago
      3. Call them what they are. Do not allow them to call themselves anything but the COMMUNIST that they are.
      4. Do not do any business with them.
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    • Posted by tpatter4 1 year, 11 months ago
      Donate, give, but only to those who will work for it in some way . That is, use it to "teach".
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      • Posted by keeponshrugging 1 year, 11 months ago
        Good point. There is an awesome documentary on giving lepers in India handouts for begging vs loaning them seed money to start small businesses to support themselves. It is an amazing story which extolls that "anything given free has no value"... even if it's to someone in as bad straights as a leper.
        http://byutv.org/watch/d0f942b2-6b4f-492...
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  • Posted by alexwalk55 1 year, 11 months ago
    I live in Cyprus, which is located at the hot spots end of the Med.

    Our small country is tied financially and culturally to Greece. It tends to vote left, like Greece, it has a high dependency on government for jobs, pensions and a quiet life.

    The goal of many Cypriots is to get a job with the government, indeed there is a long waiting list to get a job for life with no strife.

    However, the Greek crisis has spilled over to our island and we are about to get the biggest bail out per head of population ever.

    Like all European Union countries, the population has been bottle fed on dependency, my warning to all my friends in the USA is - don't go there - every penny you give in welfare will cost you a thousand dollars to get back.

    Entitlement is the worse investment that you will ever make.

    I love Cyprus, I want to live long enough to see a better more independent country, that is a hard enough task for us with just 800,000 people living here. I don't want to think how hard it will be for you my friends with your large and fast growing population do not go the euro way.
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  • Posted by  $  ObjectiveAnalyst 1 year, 11 months ago
    Hello Shrugger,

    I haven’t been able to compose a sentence since Tuesday without expletives. Your story is the most inspirational thing I have read in a while. I am hoping to compose myself and contribute again soon. Thank you!

    Regards,
    O.A.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 1 year, 11 months ago
      I mourned for a week. Its time to fight, with words but fight. No holding back anywhere for any reason.

      Yesterday I was on the phone with a niece who started to talk to me about the need for planned parenthood and how people have to have a place to go to get advice and birth control. Some place that is not your parents.

      For background her mom and dad have been divorced, a couple of times she has borrowed money for books for college or other little things that have come up from me. I have helped her move and we have an OK relationship.

      Her dad is out of the picture and her mother (my sister is extremely liberal, big government and things that socialism is the way we need to do everything in society.

      I let her rattle for a minute and then interrupted her. The conversation went something like this.

      "By what right do you justify stealing from me?"

      "Why do you say that, I have never stolen anything from you."

      "Did you go to planned parenthood and get Birth control?"

      "Yes"

      "who paid for it"

      "It was free"

      "Who paid for it?"

      "I just said it was free?"

      "Nothing is free, where did the money come from to pay for it?"

      "The government"

      "The government does not have any money of its own, It does not produce a good or service to make money, so they can pay for nothing. Who paid for it?"

      "Taxes I guess?"

      "Do I support Planned Parenthood?"

      "No, you don't like it."

      "Would I voluntarily give money to Planned Parenthood"

      She laughed "Never in a million years."

      "But My tax money has been given in part to planned parenthood. How did it get there?"

      "Through Taxes"

      "If I would never give my money voluntarily to planned parenthood, and yet money went there from me, what does that make the process that my money ended up in planned parenthood?"

      "taxes"

      "What would you call it when someone takes my money, under threat of incarceration and spends on something I do not want it spent on?"

      I had a long pause, almost thought she had hung up. Then "Blackmail"

      I then said "Planned parenthood has a right to exist, but only if can exist on its own merit or on the merit of those who voluntarily give funds to them. It has no right to exist on a system of blackmail and theft. When you use its services you committing the blackmail and theft, not the government as you are the one enabling the system that supports blackmail and theft. I know you are not a thief, you are better than that; so why do want to be a thief?"

      "I do not want to be a thief!"

      "Then choose not to be"

      We then talked about a few other things and as the conversation wrapped up she said "I don't think its theft, but I am not sure what it is."

      I did not get through to her completely, but I think she is thinking about it. I recieved a text earlier today "You really think its theft?" which I have not yet replied to.

      We all have conversations and people we associate with that we may be able to reach and help to curb the direction. I do not know what else we can do, but this we can at every opportunity.

      Her mother, my sister hardly talks to me because of my push against her big government will save all attitude and the fact that I push back against her every time she talks about it. I do worry that the same will happen with this neice, but how much worse would it be to
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      • Posted by rfcf2 1 year, 10 months ago
        Taxes? Who pays Taxes?
        We have QE 1,2,3....(Quantitative easing). The government just prints money and gives it freely to planned parenthood and others. So, we have no worries. (Yes, said with sarcasm)
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      • Posted by  $  ObjectiveAnalyst 1 year, 11 months ago
        I too have a niece that I have been an influence on. She has now had four little girls of her own. Her father was derelict in his duties. Her mother had to work and support the family because the father was much like your sister. You are doing great. We must all try to educate the youth before the indoctrination has become too ingrained.
        Regards,
        O.A.
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  • Posted by JerseyRunner 1 year, 11 months ago
    Shrugger,
    I'm clapping for you also. Thank you for addressing that moocher.
    But, I don't agree that he had no idea that he should feel shame rather than pride. He didn't just roll off the turnip truck. More likely, deep down, he knows he should be ashamed but he and his wife and decided to just hook into the gravy train. I think that many people make a conscious decision to mooch as much as possible. They see others mooching, some may feel that they've never gotten anything for free and think it's about damn time that they get theirs.
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    • Posted by  $  jmlesniewski 1 year, 11 months ago
      I don't agree. I think a lot of people aren't in tune to the consequences of their actions either because they've been shielded from them or they can't figure them out.
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    • Posted by WWJGD 1 year, 11 months ago
      True. It's called "incentives." Real People in the Real World DO respond to them.

      Whatever you subsidize, you get more of.
      Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by XenokRoy 1 year, 11 months ago
    After reading you post I have two questions:

    1) Why were you upset about speaking up and speaking out.

    2) Would you do it again? Would you do it more quickly or would it take more to get you to stand up again like this?

    I am proud of you for stating it. I have friends that are no longer friends because I have done this. I have been undefended on Facebook by several people because I post things like this about it. A person I like very much, and have worked with for 18 years has an autistic son and Obamacare made it easier for him to pay for insurance. A similar conversation cost me that friendship. At the time I felt like I had done the wrong thing, but later in hind sight; it was so worth it. I stood by the truth and my principles.

    I think you should be proud of this, and repeat it at any and all opportunity.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 11 months ago
      Thank You XR for your kind words. And you ask a very legitimate question... why was I angry at myself for losing my temper...?

      After spending several decades "tilting at windmills", I have come to learn that I must pick and choose my battles carefully.

      A number of years ago I finally got it into my head that I was NEVER going to change the minds of everyone... and that it wasn't necessary to do so.

      There are actually SO MANY OF US... I know it doesn't look that way... but it's true. Unfortunately... most people that have a "heart for liberty" have never taken the time to learn about or have never been adequately exposed to the truth... to rational thought.

      I have decided that it is more rational for me to interact with those who I might have a reasonable chance of influencing... those who are already predisposed to libertarian principles and only require a small amount of additional knowledge or enlightenment to be allies in my crusade.

      The "Gultch" is more appropriate than McDonalds as a forum for thiese types of discussions.

      As for whether I would do it again... I wish I could say "yes"... because I believe that if we ALL spoke out in likewise fashion the moochers would begin to learn that their days are numbered... but to be honest... I'm not sure.

      But I would sure like to see someone else speaking out... I'd even buy 'em an Ice Tea off the Dollar Menu!!!
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      • Posted by XenokRoy 1 year, 11 months ago
        Thanks, the amount of vigor to show to others as I speak about what is reality is something I am currently struggling with. You have given me a few things to think about.
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        • Posted by 1 year, 11 months ago
          Great!!! If I discover just ONE new ally here in the Gultch... then my tirade at McDonalds will have served a useful purpose.
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  • Posted by stormtrooper 1 year, 11 months ago
    Oh dear. Do you believe that compassion has no place in Ayn Rand's ideology? Why do you think she had Howard Roark designing a low income housing project?
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    • Posted by 1 year, 11 months ago
      Storm... the issue you bring up is one of the most important misnomers that Objectivists... and all true advocates of reason... must address.

      While the subject is too important to thoroughly cover in this string, and probably deserves a separate posting of its own... let me briefly address it here.

      Ayn Rand abhorred the concept of altruism... which is a philosophical belief that it is morally appropriate that a being sacrifice itself for the sake of the group to which it belongs.

      Many misunderstand her position. They equate her disdain for altruism as an attack on compassion in general. Ayn Rand never spoke against compassion... and reason dictates that compassion have a place in our lives as rational beings who must rely on voluntary interaction between like-minded individuals in order to thrive in this world.

      The difference between altruism and compassion is a question of self-sacrifice.

      Compassion is defined as a "deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it."

      Compassion becomes altruism when an entity chooses to sacrifice itself in order to alleviate that suffering.

      It becomes pure evil when it chooses to sacrifice someone else in order to alleviate the suffering of itself or another.

      And, by the way, compassion had absolutely NOTHING to do with why Roark secretly designed Cortland... neither compassion for those who would live there... nor compassion for Keating.
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    • Posted by Dragon616 1 year, 11 months ago
      Because he felt he could do it the best. I don't know for certain, I haven't read the Fountainhead as much as AS.
      Reply | Permalink  
    • Posted by  $  jmlesniewski 1 year, 11 months ago
      Compassion is a result of justice, feeling positively toward those who deserve it, and nothing else.
      Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by murachai 1 year, 11 months ago
    The confrontations are getting more and more intense. Everywhere you look you meet these millions living on other's sweat and proud of that too!! It has become a norm rather than an exception that others should toil for "me". Many are the times one just sits amused, watching the crowd deep in the oration skills and then when the orator leaves, starts talking against him...
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  • Posted by gwynmarilyn 1 year, 11 months ago
    Shame is not word I would use. But I have read "Atlas Shrugged" six times. So I know what I am saying. I fell in love with world the book gave us. I have never met anyone like those who come alive in the words of that wonderful book. When I was young I believe. But life sometimes hit one hard. I paid into SS and now live on it. Am I proud I must live off the state and all of you? No, but I do want keep living.
    It easier when young and healthy to think things will never make you change what you think the world should be like. It took friends to drag me to file for help. So if you want me say thank you, I am willing to say it. Also one think that many people seem to forget she spoke of Looters and those who get laws change so they can take from those who create wealth. Not just make up ways to steal other people retirement. I see the government and Wall Street are more that kind. No, I do not belong in Gulch. But I still want the third film to come to big screen. It a world I wish did live.
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    • Posted by rfcf2 1 year, 10 months ago
      There were many who had a good amount of money saved up for their retirement. Money they could pull from instead of Social Security. When the economy tanked (2008) they saw their funds dry up quickly. They are too old to start over again. Companies do not want to hire them. Or, they get hired but at a much lower income level. So, they did what you did - turned to the only place that could rescue them – the government. If SS wasn’t there for you, then where will you be now? At the local soup kitchen? It’s a difficult decision to make….
      Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by upsidedownjack 1 year, 11 months ago
    Forgive them God for they do not understand what a MAN does, who want's Free, not freedom!
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  • Posted by RGCsister 1 year, 11 months ago
    I would say there are two lacks of shame.

    One is that I found this link on my brothers page. His kids were paid for by the state. His lack of taking care of himself has caused him I'll health. He is currently a healthcare moocher. My brother and many other people I know seem to think that they are of the 1% and support a lot of policy that would leave them completely destitute. I found out earlier today that when my brother was in high school he would sit on the street corner and talk to himself and then not go to school. His support of this kind of rhetoric just shows his mental issues.

    Next on the shame list are insurance companies who have priced citizens out of insurance and cancelled policies of those that are sick to give ridiculous bonuses to CEOs. Shame, shame indeed
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    • Posted by WWJGD 1 year, 11 months ago
      Oh, yeah, SHAME on those nasty, evil, Capitalistic insurance companies who only think about MONEY...

      ... and for running an insurance company as if it were, well, an actual insurance company instead of a social welfare agency.
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      • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
        Insurance companies have been legally immune to investigation for decades. They have bilked billions from individuals kept ignorant of math by the school system. If you think these are two separate factors, never read me again.
        Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by tpatter4 1 year, 11 months ago
    This is what we all need to do, but with caution. When we can take these opportunities to educate people, this can work for us. One thing that is less confrontational, as none of us wants to get beaten up, is to simply ask questions--using the Socratic method. Ask people, "Do you understand how economics works?" or "Do you know that you are enjoying the benefits of my paycheck?", etc. "Do you know what the current national debt is? unemployment rate now and what it was when O took office?" (because they probably don't hear these stats on the mainstream media), "Do you know that our U.S. Ambassador in Benghazi, Libya...?" We have to remember that lots of people simply are not knowledgeable of some of these things because they watch mainstream media, whom we know protects Obama and his liberal minions. We can even suggest certain programs they can watch or listen to, etc. $
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    • Posted by rfcf2 1 year, 10 months ago
      (because they probably don't hear these stats on the mainstream media) Stats? Oh. You mean who got the best score on Dancing with the Stars. Those stats. ... because the morning news wants to spend most of the time talking about who got kicked out last night from Dancing....
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    • Posted by WWJGD 1 year, 11 months ago
      @tpatter4, that still worked twenty years ago, maybe even as recently as ten.

      Not any more. Any discussion with these people will end the same way Eddie Willers' discussion with James Taggart did in the novel's first chapter:

      "...he had decided to make the issue clear for once, and the issue was so clear, he thought, that nothing could bar it from Taggart's understanding, unless it was the failure of his own presentation. So he had tried hard, but he was failing, just as he had always failed in all of their discussions; no matter what he said, they never seemed to be talking about the same subject."

      We've done the "less confrontational" approach for fifty years. The haters have now pushed us into a corner and are now deliver the coup de grâce. You don't fool with the Socratic method when someone has a gun in your face.
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      • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
        This is the point. The Socratic Method is in the dominating Discourse of classic Hegelian Discourse. Either/or; opposites. If you argue within this Discourse you will lose because you are arguing on their turf. As Vija Kinski says in DeLillo's Cosmopolis, "There is no outside." A direct quote from Foucault.
        Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Timelord 1 year, 11 months ago
    The moocher you chastised reminds me of a former friend of mine. For my own sanity I had to distance myself from him. He had declared bankruptcy 3 times, had a new car and was getting ready to declare a 4th time. He was nearly 60 and didn't have a single dime saved for retirement. He always ran up his credit cards before he declared bankruptcy, so he was defrauding his creditors willingly in addition to the unfortunate circumstances he'd encountered.

    And when it came to those "unfortunate circumstances", as it turns out they were all avoidable and came about because of a series of poor choices on his part.

    I met him through a mutual friend (after his 3rd bankruptcy) after he moved back to my state from AZ. He was coming back here to live with his sister and brother-in-law so he could get free medical care for a number of chronic conditions. He was always complaining how long he had to wait for free appointments,how he spent hours in the waiting room and how hard it was to schedule surgeries.

    A couple of times I tried to have conversations where I gently tried to get him to realize that his medical care wasn't FREE and that he was actually forcing me to pay for his care through my taxes and higher medical costs. He never got it.

    He was pretty good company, and an excellent handy-man, so I paid him to do some interior painting, repair some cracks in the walls, replace a light switch or two and to mouse-proof, rewire, insulate and put up new wallboard in a special-purpose outbuilding on my property. He did quality work - but he asked me to make the checks out to his sister because if his bank account showed incoming money it would affect his free medical care and his impending admission to the rolls of social security disability. I refused to be a party to that and made the check out to him.

    It was shortly after that when I decided that I didn't value his companionship or his handy-man skills as much as I valued my own integrity. I hired someone else to finish the job.

    Our mutual friend told me about a year after that that he'd declared his 4th bankruptcy, had his new car repossessed and had been accepted into SSI disability (even though he can work). I said, "Thanks for the update but I don't really want to talk about Dennis. I'm too disgusted by his behavior."
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    • Posted by radical 1 year, 11 months ago
      The government is screwing him, so why shouldn't he screw the government in return? Why didn't you just pay him cash? If he doesn't want to report it, it's his decision, and problem, not yours. You wouldn't have to be a party to anything.
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      • Posted by Timelord 1 year, 11 months ago
        I occasionally paid him cash, but I don't live at all close to my bank so if I owed hundreds of dollars it was much more practical to write a check.

        You're right that the decision to report or not report is his own business - but by enabling him to hide his income I am working against my own rational self-interest by raising my own taxes and medical costs (as a result of having to pay my share of his *free* care). Not only that, but I'm forcing my neighbors to do the same. In objectivist terms that's a worse breach.

        If he wasn't on the gov't dole (i.e. being in receipt of stolen money) then I would have had no problem paying him in cash or making out the check to whomever he asked. I have often paid in cash (e.g. a mason who rebuilt a retaining wall and stairs) and in return I got a better price and paid no sales tax. I have no moral issue with avoiding sales tax - or any other taxes for that matter. And my mason and his crew aren't claiming gov't largesse.

        I also have to ask, in what way was the government screwing HIM? He's the recipient of many thousands of dollars of "free" medical care. The truth of the matter, of course, is that some of his care is paid for by his neighbors' taxes (Medicaid), some by extorting the hospital (gov't rules that force hospitals to provide care at below cost) and of course by jacking up the costs to those of us who do pay. In fact, those who self-fund their medical care get screwed the worst since they pay even higher rates than those negotiated by insurance providers.
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      • Posted by WWJGD 1 year, 11 months ago
        I disagree in part with what Radical has said here, but I don't think he deserves a down-mod (please re-read the rules).

        So I'm modding him back up to a +1. Not because I agree with him but because I think his point deserves some discussion.
        Reply | Permalink  
        • -1
          Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
          YOu know these ratings systems are just a way for people to gang up on others and drive them away. You really need to get rid of it permanently. They invite the gestapo in the middle of the night. Lest you think I am being paranoid I have been to boot camp with it at The Daily Kos, a progressive site that harks to the drumbeats of the SS gunboots.
          Reply | Permalink  
      • -1
        Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
        I agree. He was using a strategy that didn't work out and then used another strategy that did. I spent an evening with Murray Rothbard and some libertarians in the mid 60's. and Murray was discussing his rent controlled apartment in NYC. I confronted him in Randian style about that. What he said in essence was that you used the govt against itself. You used its strength against it. This is Rand although rarely admitted as Randian, but it is true. You judo the govt. Ai Wei Wei is holding off the entire totalitarian Chinese Govt with Twitter. He is using their strength against them. How's that for bananas? You people have got to learn Nietzschean strategy and stop this fucking moralizing like the priests you sound like.
        Reply | Permalink  
        • Posted by rfcf2 1 year, 10 months ago
          " used the govt against itself" It will work at the beginning, but eventually it will cause the government to implode. 49% are using that strategy now. When the rest of us decide to jump on the “band wagon” then the government will no longer be able to sustain itself and we will become like Greece…. With China being our savior.
          Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by  $  TomB666 1 year, 11 months ago
    Brilliant! I wish I had your facility with words. Thank you.
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  • Posted by pat0003 1 year, 11 months ago
    You should be angry that you even had to say that! The attitude that you encountered isn't an isolated incident. People who get a hand out from the govenment never stop to think that someone is paying for it! I often tell my son there is no such thing as free! Someone is paying for it! More of us should be angry!
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  • Posted by DGriffing 1 year, 11 months ago
    The looters are in control with the reelection of the looter President. Now we'll see the effects of the mind on strike when the productive are increasingly forced to shoulder the looter's burden.
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  • Posted by  $  jimslag 1 year, 11 months ago
    Hello, My moment of realization was when I first moved to my current town, I was driving an old 95 Ford pickup that I scraped up the money for. I was grocery shopping at one of the local stores and picking up a few items. The lady in front of me paid with food stamps and made a big deal of it. I only had 3 or 4 items, so I was right out the door of the store behind the lady. She climbed into a brand new Chevy Silverado pickup that there was no way I could afford, even though I was busting my butt working and paying off bills. I was just thinking that I was in the wrong business, when I woke up and thought to myself that I did NOT want to lower myself to that. So I continued along my path and worked myself out of debt. Yes, I pay taxes and YES, they are going to go up, but I have a plan that once everything is paid off or sold off, I am finding my Gulch and not continuing on the path that the Government is forcing us down.
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    • Posted by rfcf2 1 year, 10 months ago
      “but I have a plan that once everything is paid off or sold off, I am finding my Gulch”
      I’m curious. Where will that Gulch be? Are you planning on staying in your current town/location? Or will you be moving to another place within the U.S.? Or outside the U.S.?
      Reply | Permalink  
      • Posted by  $  jimslag 1 year, 10 months ago
        I am still looking but it will probably be outside the US. Definitely not staying where I am. It is a nice small town but has faults, like no water and small town pettiness. Will probably keep small town as a US base but will not live here.
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    • -2
      Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
      Let me explain something to you. Food stamps are a "floating sign" of HELP masking that they subsidize big agriculture. You think they are for the benefit of "poor" people. No they are not. They subsidize the Frito Lay chips, the Pepsi and Coke corporations, the sugar and cake mix, the frozen pizzas and dinners, etc (get my idea I hope) and without food stamps their profit line would tank. Because these are the people that buy this prepared crap. Look at their carts. You are not going to see fresh vegetables, milk for the kids, non sugar items. Never.
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      • Posted by  $  jimslag 1 year, 11 months ago
        Hey Seymour, I never said that she had whatever, I just said she used the food stamps. I am well aware of what they are used for. You seem to be a very busy blogger, replying to everyone. Relate your experiences, if any.
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        • Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
          I think there is no point in my continuing to be redundant. If this will take a hot link: http://aynrand2.blogspot.com for much more so I don't have to redo things. Thanks. Also, food stamps are in a Grid of power/knowledge/capital and they cannot be discussed separately as they are in a relation.
          Reply | Permalink  
          • Posted by  $  jimslag 1 year, 10 months ago
            I looked at your link and it just seems as if it is a bunch of jibberish. A few good snippets but nothing is coherently organized. I think you are the one being redundant and please keep your glib comments to yourself. I am proud of who I am and do NOT need to denigrate anyone especially someone like you. You just seem to be a person who likes tearing everybody else down to your level. So thank you for your comments but don't comments unless you have something coherent to say other than being dismissive.
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          • Posted by WWJGD 1 year, 11 months ago
            I followed the above link, took a brief look around.

            First impression: Somebody has been doing a lot of acid.
            Reply | Permalink  
            • -1
              Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
              The standard response when someone doesn't know what to say. I see you use a mass media internet sound bite to express yourself. Very intelligent. What I expect around the randroid belt.
              Reply | Permalink  
              • Posted by WWJGD 1 year, 11 months ago
                No, it's the standard response to bullshit.

                There's nothing there on that site; just a bunch of random words strung into meaningless sentences. No structure, no organization.

                Not one coherent thought; just meaningless glop. The very kind of stuff we've come to expect from acidheads.

                You see, I used to live in Eugene, Oregon. I've known a LOT of stoners.
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                • -2
                  Posted by seymourblogger 1 year, 11 months ago
                  Just the kind of thing I've come to expect from uneducated idiots. Bye.
                  Reply | Permalink  
                  • Posted by WWJGD 1 year, 11 months ago
                    "Uneducated": adj. People who did not spend $100,000 on a degree in Literary Criticism.

                    see also: "went to an engineering school instead and got a degree in something that is actually useful in the Real World"
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  • Posted by BenjaminGrimm 1 year, 11 months ago
    Bravo. I'm surprised he had the sense to back down and reassess his views. In my experience, most looters/moochers are so far into it that even such a well reasoned speech as yours either simply bounces off them, or more often, grossly inflates their sense of entitlement.
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