I don't see my view as dehumanizing at all. But I do see pretty much all rational human interaction as trade. So long as nobody tries to actually cheat or bully the other players, all's fair (as opposed to views where one person's gain is pejoratively called "exploitation", which just shows that the name caller is unclear on the concept).

My comments, after reading the posts are simply "food for thought.
1. Psychiatrist Thomas Szasa states: "Women marry men hoping they will change. Men marry women hoping they won't change"
2. There are two times a man does not understand a woman- Just before he marries her, and then again just after he marries her.

You have described it perfectly. It is a combination of the entitlement teaching in schools, the rush to label people and make them focus on sexual identity in kindergarten. For years they have said boys need to not play with guns. My dad taught this gal to shoot when I was 8, with responsibility. I have not killed anyone ...yet! Then they are against cars, cars bad, so all the fun we had checking out the new models, gone. Girls are not getting the work ethic thing, they whine, they protest, but they don't apply themselves to work.Your "free to Be" was headed by one of the biggest ball buster nasty women around, Marlo. Her dad was so wonderful, and she is nothing like him.Feminism is about hate and anger just as is rape. As a kid, a lot of boys liked gir;sl toys, just as I like boy/s toys, and we had a great time without any labels on toys. My dad taught me to throw a football properly, but also signed me up for sewing classes at a local dept. store.Just as a guy should know how to sew on a button as well as when to change his car's oil. If schools would just teach academics and let lids grow up whole individuals, we would not be in the mess we are in.

If that is how you view women and sex, I'll leave you to it, but I would suggest to you that it is probably this attitude that directly controls your interactions with women and the resulting opinions about relationships - especially marriage. To you, there is nothing special or unique about a relationship to value. If you carefully analyze such a value set, however, one can not help but conclude that in doing so you dehumanize all women. They become nothing more than "receptacles". It also begs me to ask if that view transfers over to men as well - do you see them merely as competitors for physical affection?

It's for pleasure, and is a commodity, though there are more misers of it than of most commodities.

I'm going to put this quite bluntly, but what is a whore? It is a woman who is willing to have sex with someone she isn't married to - usually for money. Whether a woman sees herself in this way or not is up to her, but sugar-coating the words to spare someone's feelings isn't what reality is all about. There isn't common vernacular in English for a man who does the same (man-whore just isn't quite the same), which I think is unfortunate and truly sexist.

Those who devalue sex are those who are willing to sell it so cheaply. One can see it merely as a physical act of pleasure, or one can see it as a special relationship-building tool and as a way to bring children to that relationship. Which one is an accurate depiction of reality?

"I'm not quite sure how someone would take it as an insult but maybe you can explain."
It sounded like it was saying, "the best thing she's good for is...", which in my mind is tantamount to calling her a whore.

I'm not investing in beauty. I'm investing in a relationship. If my evaluation of the other person is purely physical and that is the only criteria, I'm going to have a pretty shallow and temporary relationship. If on the other hand I value that other person for their wit, their kindness, their willingness to put up with me day in and day out, their cooking skills (a big one to me), and a whole host of other characteristics... Well, there's a lot to consider and find value in beyond physical appearance. Of course I'm no Brad Pitt either...

Could you repeat that more clearly, please? Sorry I do not understand what you are trying to say;^)

The problem with thinking of it as a capital investment is that female beauty is the fastest-depreciating asset known to man.

It was meant to be taken literally and it came from my wife, actually. Guilty conscience maybe, but insult? I'm not quite sure how someone would take it as an insult but maybe you can explain.

It's actually a very simple question of self-control and being willing to work towards what you want. Think of it as an investment in one's self. How can you invest yourself fully into a marriage (which is the ultimate commitment) when you've already spent much of your capital? And if you come in with little capital, it's going to take a lot longer for that capital to grow and become self-sustaining in comparison to someone who comes in with a lot of capital. There's also the security and risk to take into account: if you've ever "invested" in another relationship, the risk has been and always will be greater that you will repeat that action. The downside is that there really isn't any reward for the high risk, neither does "diversifying your portfolio" gain you anything.

True, but government more effectively and efficiently oppresses people who don't try to make their own cases different by contracting than those who do. Let's try not to make the bad guys' job easy.

Besides, arbitration is an option.

"we were more advanced in the 60s!"
I know, and I don't get why we've gone backwards on this issue. It's almost like we think sexism has been nailed so we can now encourage kids to indulge in the fantasy of being a princess who a prince will rescue and provide all material and spiritual support. If you raise an eyebrow to it, they'll say the girls have "leadership skills" because they're comfortable demanding what they want like a boss. I'm all for getting what you want, but that comes by fair trades giving others what they want. Feminism has gone way backwards in my lifetime. When I was a kid and had my Free to Be record, I knew it was not correct to call toys boy toys or girl toys, even though most boys/girls tend to chose certain types of toys. Now if you're a little kid who likes a toy associated with other sex, people wonder if they're transgender. Maybe some of them are, but often it's just individuals doing their own thing, and we feel we have to shoehorn them into a group.

Government can't be trusted to judge equitably today. They do not care about people; they care about wielding power and forcing socialist values. A contract would serve them, not our interests. One of the biggest mistakes a person can make in life is to assume that government acts as a servant to the people. Letting them meddle in your private life in any avoidable way is a mistake.

If the relationship were about nothing but friendship and/or sex, you'd be right. But throughout history, the marriage relationship has been primarily an economic arrangement. Indeed, for most of that time, most spouses have been each other's #1 trading partners. This naturally creates opportunities for either one to really cheat the other if not prevented by courts or enforceable contracts.

One of the biggest mistakes a person can make in life is to assume that romantic love exists, or at least that his partner is primarily driven by it.

Girls are definitely getting the wrong message from both schools and the media. First, they are not taught to be individuals, but rather to rely on peers rather than self. Then the media comes along and tells them they need to act like sluts, dress like whores, and smell like a the alluring fragrance of the day to get the guy who will make them eternally happy. They don't even explore who they are or might be, they don't focus on work, they don't love cars (unless it is a limo to the church). Advertising, dumb sitcoms, and painted up singers solidify that route to marital success. They don't focus on how many broken marriages these people have had, and how they end up alone, but not happy with being with "self". As a reporter, I sometimes had to cover school stories, and was amazed at how little the women's lib thing has advanced teen girls. They still actually talk about getting pregnant to land a guy! Geez, we were more advanced in the 60s!

Wow, quite a few comments about this. I was not sure if it would even attract a couple but you guys went all out with your stories and happenings. I laid mine out in the initial write up and needed a new perspective and reading the comments has given me food for thought. Thank you...Jim

Polygamy is like being a politician, which one philosopher described as "the grandest form of slavery." There is not freedom, only trying to please too many others.I grew up not too concerned about marriage, enjoyed dating and my work. I had freiends who planned their weddings in every detail, but had not yet picked the "perfect" mate. It They never once considered if they were a perfect mate. When my first marriage failed after a couple years, I saw it as a mutual but beneficial failure.I did not look closely enough at his lack of independendence from his parents, and did not realize fully how much my independence was a tribute to my parents. There also has to be humor or nothin will survive. When the cat throws up, the kid totals a car but is unhurt, or or storms take down giant pine trees, you have to be able to find something in it all to laugh about and move forward. My cureent husband is the tax guy, loves it, I am the IT person, our personal and business partnership works well with the merged talents. When we remodel, we both love getting into it. When the car has a noise, I explain it to the mechanic, I grew up with cars and being around my dad. My husband loves the time mowing grass, it is his religion. I hate mowing, but love planting tree starts and bushes.We could not agree on the methods of our broker, so we have two brokers, and everyone is happy. You have to learn to disagree and accept you are two different people. The hardest lesson for me learned in the first failed marriage, was to let go of the illusion, the other person would supply your happiness, without your having to do anything about it. T That illusion would have been a very big burden, no matter who the man was.

" if women want marriage why are they willing to give up their best leverage"
I can't tell if this sarcastic/ironic, but taken literally it is a hardcore insult to the women in question.

"I think if a woman has to "get a guy to marry her" that is a problem to begin with."
I agree that entire message. I think some young women think they have "pay their dues", as it were, putting up with boyfriends' idiosyncrasies for a while, and then once you get serious all that weirdness will have to go. I almost think they tell girls that the nature of dating is to put up with stuff you don't like, never say it aloud, and then once you snag him he won't mind your changing fundamental things about him.

I don't need government meddlers to tell me how to conduct my personal life.
(Never married and my two closest friends (25 years) are single women.)

But if you both want to, why not get the contract?
Because you're afraid that your wanting to won't last?

I'd much rather have it official. (In the hypothetical case of anything occurring in the first place, I mean).

"...be your best self, and your most authentic self, marriage will come when it is right."

There it is.................. BT

Nothing like it! +++

I think if a woman has to "get a guy to marry her" that is a problem to begin with. It smacks of manipulation. That does not even factor in the obsession some gals have with weddings, only to find they don't even know the groom really. Rand's heroines learned that they had to be whole, not closed off, but secure in their own identity, before they were ready for her heroes. You cannot need marriage, it has to be a growt situation h for both. I remember sitting in a restaurant listening to two guy, both divorced, talking about dating.One ha just demped the flavor of the month, because he said he could not talk with her about anything. His buddy agreed with his view. Sinatra once said he would not waste time dating stupid women, as after 10 minutes, thee was nothing to talk about. Sometimes we think it is all about looks and sex, and that men are superficial, but they are actually smarter than many women think. The game playing bachelorettes may get the attention, and may get the marriage, but when they drop the pretend being act, reality becomes hard. Rand would advise, be your best self, and your most authentic self, marriage will come when it is right.I have had so many guy pals over the years, who would come for advice with their latest dats, and I have had two husbands. The first brief marriage started with admiration for my independence, but collapsed when I insisted on decision making be between us, not a group hug with his mom and dad, and definitely no taking money from them. That is how I felt adults should function, he liked clinging on to dependence. This second marriage has survived 47 years, after meeting at work, we grew from there.