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Purchasing Atlantis from a debt-ridden country, but with autonomy built into the purchasing agreement?

Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 8 months ago to Government
137 comments | Share | Flag

Many of us, led by db and Kh, have been debating the subject of immigration. I would love to see America get back to her pre-1913 roots, but for numerous reasons, I think that such effort is a waste of time and resources.

Freedomforall, in response to my suggestion that America sell its "government land" to pay down at least part of its debt, asked if such a sale could include the right to secede.

That prompted me to consider the possibility of buying land from debt-ridden countries (some of which are experiencing hyperinflation) at rockbottom prices, with autonomy being required as a condition of purchase. As debt piles up all around the world, there will be some opportunities along these lines for vultures like myself to come scavenge the debris. Perhaps an island off the Venezuelan coast with some nearby oil? In our previous discussions about a physical Gulch, our premise had been to buy land that the nearby government would largely ignore based on its track record of freedom (or lack thereof). That may be the wrong premise to work from. Why should we not provide a value for value trade in their time of desperation? The question then is how long do we wait. The price for the land in such desperate countries should continue to go down, but the conditions in our own countries might get bad enough that we could get trapped by 10-289.

The United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Thailand are working toward the development of micronations off their coasts. Interestingly, Google is developing the first such island. The linked article describes some of the first work along these lines.


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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I consider most taxation robbery. There are a few very limited reasons to have a government such as national defense or local police, and those should be paid for. We will disagree on whether the taxed person is a victim.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 8 months ago
    Jbrenner;
    I consider taxation robbery; therefore, even if he
    had been delinquent, I still consider that person a
    victim.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If the government auctions the land off for unpaid taxes, then the owner was delinquent. I do not consider that person a victim. One great thing about Objectivism is that it means you do not have to feel guilty about doing what is in your best interest.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Warhead has to arrive at the site of armor to be effective. If warhead is nudged offcourse by a drone, then the drone was cheap defense compared to the delivery system of the warhead. Yes, a significant breakthrough in offense can be devastating, but the cost of defense catching up is much cheaper to implement (in general) assuming you survive to do so. If your enemy has FTL tech while you are in steam engines, surrender may be the only survivable option.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 8 months ago
    Jbrenner: I still don't really understand . If the
    government auctioned it off for "unpaid taxes" on the part of the owner it took it from, then it seems
    to me that there would be a victim. Now, if were
    just previously unowned land that the government
    laid a claim to, I can see how you would be right.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sandboxing would only work for a limited period of time.
    Simply because to verify your access, you submit info from a third party and check what you see for that info.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "In the race between warhead and armor...warhead always wins"

    I would attribute it if I knew the origin. I know Robert Heinlein used it in a few places.
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  • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Defense is NOT always cheaper. Just look at the native populations that were overrun during the age of imperialism. TECHNOLOGY determines whether or not defense is cheaper; sometimes, offense is cheaper.
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  • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 8 months ago
    Given that there must be MILLIONS of people who'd migrate to the Gulch, why not have multiple Gulches straddling the globe? Why only one? For one thing, having Gulches in various locations can form the basis for global trading network. It can also mean that we can grow crops unique to different climates. Finally, no single calamity (other than an asteroid) would destroy the network.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What makes you think that the looters in Congress and the White House care about the national debt? The national debt does not affect them; only the working people by destroying their investments and value. From the looters' point of view - so what?
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Seriously? Even North Korea, dedicating 90+% of its manpower to the military, couldn't afford a quarter of what's on your list.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The failed or failing state from which land is acquired needs to be weak and incapable of re-acquisition against a determined defense. Paper agreements are of little value - armed defense is the best guarantee. However, this could be a simbiotic relationship with Atlantis providing jobs, products or services, including joint defense, to the failing state.
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  • Posted by robertmarten890 8 years, 8 months ago
    My idea all along has been to actually build the island, floating in the ocean (Pacific). Think of bolting together 500 barges and you get the idea. It can grow as big a needed.
    A good idea may be to find an underwater mount (similar to New Utopia idea), for anchorage, but to be honest, I always thought of free floating. Engines-props can keep us in a stable position.
    Once we are in international waters, who could object?
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, wheels within wheels. I do agree with your concern re NSA and other such agencies. Demanding access would only come after polite request was refused, and if they found they couldn't break Atlantis' security. Better to let them in to a sandbox of dead ends and disinformation, but that would eventually have repercussions, too.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Midas funded others in the Gulch, but I was thinking more of trade sanctions or other actions against fabricated offenses. Stretches the definition of banking system, but the same hands may be pulling the levers. Very creative and powerful people don't like competition.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 8 months ago
    Great idea. We would eventually need some extraordinary defenses...they'll come after us it they get their way with the rest of the world.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Right, as if Google or Apple wouldn't hand us over for the proverbial 30 pieces of silver. They already have proven their reliability (to the enemy.)
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I wonder if the EU would bid for any such property if they knew it was to become independent, or would they just plan to use the banking system against the new owners as they have so often. They can pay any price at no immediate cost.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Number 666 "When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits, infect the first payment with a virus and send him back to the banksters that sent him."
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There are quite a few uninhabited Greek islands up for sale. If such islands were so rich in resources, wouldn't they be inhabited?
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I need to answer this question in parts and cases.

    Case 1: The land is private, but in a debt-ridden country. In that case, I can do value-for-value exchange with the individual(s), but have to also negotiate with the government(s) regarding autonomy, non-aggression, etc.

    Cases 2 and 3: I think this is what you are asking about. The government claims to own the land. According to Objectivism, "government land" is land no one owns, but everyone pays for. Government undoubtedly confiscated it, whether it be via taxes on everyone or by failure to pay taxes by an individual or company. In the latter case of government auctioning off land for unpaid taxes, then there is no "victim", and I have no problem buing the land guilt-free. In the former case, however, of selling land that was never owned by individuals or companies, then there is an endless number of victims, but none were truly owners.

    One of the Ferengi rules of acquisition applies here.
    162. Even in the worst of times somebody turns a profit.
    (I would like that to be me.)

    a) In providing a value for value transaction, I need feel no guilt.
    b) They are getting something to continue their meager existences. Eudaimonia criticized this concept earlier today, but if someone chooses to live in a country that is so debt-ridden that it is bankrupt, then either they are moochers, they are looters, or they are too dumb to get out.
    c) For those smart enough to get out and want to come to a country of sanity, one of us will gladly employ them.
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