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A right to water?

Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 10 months ago to News
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So this is a popular meme going around facebook now. One of my friends posted it in agreement that nestle should be embargoed. We have been having the following "discussion":

Me: They don't [have a right to water]. He is absolutely right. It is impossible to have a right to anything that requires the effort of other humans to provide unless that effort is purchased by trade.

You have the right to the water that falls from the sky onto your face or your property. If it takes other people to get the water, and make it clean, and provide it for you, you have no right unless you pay for it or they choose to give it to you as a charity case (in which case you still have no right to it). They are not your slaves.

FB friend: I'm pretty sure this pertains to the drought in CA and what Nestle is doing out there, Mark. Also, some states do not allow people to collect rain water for personal us.

Me: What is nestle doing out there? Expecting pay for the effort and intelligence that goes into the water that they provide? They should.

Nobody has a right to water. They don't have a right to the labor and intelligence and capital it takes to dig wells, to pump water, to lay pipes, to treat water and store it, and to deliver it to your door. They do not have the right to enslave the people that do these things. Which is what "a right to water" means. The right to enslave all those who get the clean water to your house for those who have the "right".

California should pay out the wazoo for its dumb ass policies. Eventually reality cannot be avoided. CA has been taking more that its agreed share of the Colorado River for decades to water the desert - which is what most of Southern California is. Now it's coming back to bite them. They've allowed millions of immigration criminals to be welcome in their state. Now governor Brown complains about population. They've done everything possible to make energy production in their state as expensive as possible. Now that they need desalinization they cannot afford it because energy is the main cost of those processes.

They are paying for their stupidity, their progressive policies, and their denial of reality. Tough.

If nestle can figure out a way to profit from this mess - good for them.


All Comments

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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If it's a case of wasp or mosquito infestations I can see why. Especially Malarial Skeeters or if some one in the house is allergic to stings and needs injections as a result.Failing that logical thought why would anyone care? Let me guess again. You aren't paying for your fair share of the pubic ground water which drains into a riverine system that is geocontiguous to a portion deemed Wild and Scenic? That was the excuse in Oregon.
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  • Posted by JoleneMartens1982 8 years, 10 months ago
    I live in Missouri and I have water buckets all around my house for the animals and for my outdoor plants. Someone told me the other day that I am not gonna be allowed to do that much longer and that rain barrels were just a complete waste of money because they will confiscate them eventually. I replied, over my dead body!
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    When you use a term designating an invalid concept it's necessary to always explain that it is not valid and why, at least with some qualification indicating that if not a full explanation. Ideas aren't clarified by using anti-concepts to be more "effective". The fallacy is not revealed be claiming an "important distinction between negative rights and positive rights" as if there were two kinds of rights.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No. Of course not. She did show that several states outlaw collection of rainwater. Which is true but ludicrous. All wells are by definition "collections of rain water". But that is not California's issue anyway.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 10 months ago
    Did the FB friend refute your argument? FB friend just says "they're talking about the drought". Okay. People still don't have a right to water.
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  • Posted by nsnelson 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Of course I agree. Yet I think these terms make them all the more effective, because it highlights the contradiction. Positive/Benefit Rights always violate Negative/Liberty/Natural Rights, which is a contradiction in terms. No man ever has the right to violate the rights of another man. When you find a contradiction, check the premises, at least one of them will be false. When you set up the contradiction clearly, nobody (well, few people anyway) would say that the right to life has got to go, so it must be the extra man-made rights that are the culprit, the false premise.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 10 months ago
    the "right to water" belongs in the FDR extra bill of rights

    which was stupid in the 40s and is wrong, now. -- j

    .
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is no such thing as a distinction between positive and negative rights. Rights are moral principles sanctioning freedom of action in a social context. That is positive, based on the nature of man, not negative. So-called "positive rights" meaning entitlements are not rights at all and should not be sanctioned as such in any way. It an invalid concept whose use destroys the meaning of rights.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 10 months ago
    Water rights means property rights in a specific water source (and of course the water itself that is obtained from it). It is a "natural right" just as all property rights are natural rights as a consequence of individualism and the nature of man, but which must be codified into law to enforce and protect it.

    The viro collectivists are trying to turn it into entitlement of results as part of their assault on property rights. Legislation periodically turns up for government control over private wells, with a large hysterical emphasis attacking Nestle and other bottled water companies in addition to small private wells. This is not new with the current mess in CA.

    The anti-private property rights campaign against water is especially prevalent in the eco-socialism in the Catholic Church's alliance with the viros as expressed in the Pope's recent encyclical "On Care for Our Common Home". That document calling for asceticism and ecological worship of "God's Creation", while explicitly attacking private property rights and individualism, is much broader in scope and deeper philosophically than is indicated in the superficial commentary characterizing it as only part of the global warming climate hysteria campaign.

    On water in particular it hammers over and over on entitlements to water and demands that water from areas of the planet with plenty of water, where it is claimed that water is "wasted", be provided to dryer regions as a matter of eco fairness.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why not? Somebody had to pay.

    The former Governor of California repudiating the electric bill that suddenly showed up as rate increases for the citizens of Oregon, Washington etc. TANSTAAFL. Someone always pays. Why not those responsible? I have no moral conflict with that. Especially given the waste. 300 gallons a day per individual? Why should my kids go without to fill your swimming pools? Suck it up you got what you asked for.

    On the other hand I'd exempt the northern counties and set them free to joint he State of Jefferson. they are pretty good people and don't end every sentence with a question mark?
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 10 months ago
    Most of this top-level article seems to me to be collectivism run amok. "They" (California's government, past and present) enacted stupid policies and deserve the result (though immigration is neither their fault nor wrong -- the main stupid policy was not to build enough dams and canals to ensure a supply of water to serve the increasing population). But you would have a different "They" (the population) pay the price. I call foul.

    If a whole population should be called to answer for the acts of "their" politicians, then responsibility no longer matters and everything Rand wrote is wrong. I prefer to believe that you're the one who's wrong.

    As far as water rights, where they exist (in property law) they are derived from who got there first, just like land ownership. If you don't respect such titles because they weren't "earned", then please explain how you would determine the control of resources like those, which were not produced by man.
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  • Posted by nsnelson 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Right. I keep in touch with several friends from my UofM days (near Detroit), and was thinking of that. Now that they can't afford to pay the market price for water, they claim to have a right to be provided with free water (or an arbitrary price of their choosing). Using the same reasoning, if they can't afford to pay for food they would say that needs to be provided for free too. Or any other product or service that they "need" or want.

    This goes back to the important distinction between negative rights and positive rights. I recently heard these referred to "liberty rights" and "benefit rights." We have a right to the pursuit of happiness (and water), but not a right to the provision of it.

    Maybe instead they should just become all the more certain that they can produce enough value to survive.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 10 months ago
    No one has a right to anything unless they got it by sweat, paid for it, or traded for it. Even welfare is paid for -- but not by the recipients of it. I wonder when the citizens of Greece and the 40+% of the U.S. lost track of that simple fact.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Reminds me of th instant outdoor experts that moved up from California to Oregon Washington, or Idaho. One was bragging about his wood burning stove. That winter when we lost electric power for three days and his wood pellet feeding system wouldn't work....Then there's the batch that ran out and bought generators for the millinium celebration. One year early. We routinely stored one gallon jugs of water, matches and candles and cases of Top Ramen (used to be one or two dollars the case in the garage. When the snow came load up, engage four wheel drive make deliveries. Next year a new batch would move in.For those with kids we had two or three cords of extra firewood IF they had a wood stove. Firewood was cut on a rotational basis. What was split this year was for three years later. Oak, pine, and madrone. They couldn't fish either.Meanwhile we would sit around and tell Californio jokes. Funny thing was they are now the new majority since Oregon became a retirement home and bedroom state for those who Calif fornicated Oregon. they won't be happy until everyones's house is six feet from the neighbors.

    Our property has an artesian well and pump house. The State had us put meters on so they could measure ground water. Then they talked of adding fees. We had a second one in the basement back behind the base of the smokehouse operation which was the base of the fireplace and wood stove at ground floor level. The pump, actually just a series of pipes and valve was back behind the canned, bottled, jarred and whatever food storage shelves. Normal life back then. Hunting was anywhere outside the door. What we killed we ate. One useful skill was butchering. And so it went. Colorado is a good choice. Also Western Montana, Wyoming and parts of Nevada. for Oregon you have to bring your own money. It's Appalachia west and exports more high school seniors than any other crop Northern California much the same but then - it's California. There is hope! The State of Jefferson movement has been revived.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Presume is another way of saying assume. Where were your jumps? What weapon would you choose for wilderness living?
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  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You are right. Water rights are complicated and a good subject for debate: but the 'right' to have clean and ample water run out of a hole in your wall whenever you want it is something you pay for - or do not get.

    Jan
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Spoils presumes other people. If you were alone, sitting and protesting that you have a natural right to food and water would lead to your death.
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