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Why I fled libertarianism — and became a liberal

Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 4 months ago to Culture
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In a lot of ways, I can really relate to what this guy says. I myself also have a very low tolerance for most conspiracy theories (Operation Northwoods is really the only one that has any shred of credibility, primarily because it actually has official documentation to back it up), and I also share his abhorrence of the Tea Party (which, as far as I can tell, has an ideology virtually identical to that of the Ku Klux Klan). Yet in spite of that, I personally still consider myself a Libertarian, but it's probably my own unique, left-leaning brand of Libertarianism; very different from the radical, far-right fundamentalist extremism that the Teabaggers believe in.

It kind of makes me wonder... how many different “sub-parties” are there within the greater Libertarian party? The Libertarian party seems to be the go-to party for anyone who dislikes both Democrats and Republicans, which is actually a rather large percentage of the American people – they can't possibly all agree with each other. I suppose there is also the Constitution Party, which basically competes with Libertarianism, though it's not nearly as large.

Anyway, a big problem I noticed with this guy's argument is his claim that the lesson of the Great Depression was supposedly that government is supposed to help out during a catastrophic recession. But what he fails to realize is that the Great Depression would never have happened in the first place if the Federal Reserve didn't exist. I think G. Edward Griffin's book “The Creature from Jekyll Island” proves this point fairly well.

"The Creature from Jekyll Island," by G. Edward Griffin:
http://amzn.to/19mr04L

Like the author of the article, I also care about helping the poor and providing assistance for impoverished children, but I do have to question his assumption that government welfare is the only way to accomplish that. According to Ludwig von Mises, the best way to provide for the poor is through the free, unfettered capitalism that was advocated by Classical Liberalism, an ideology which is now unfortunately dead, having been replaced by Socialist Progressivism.

"Socialism - An Economic and Sociological Analysis," by Ludwig von Mises:
http://amzn.to/1hxz16B

The problem is not that the government is incompetent. Quite the contrary, the government is extremely competent. Rather, the problem is that the government simply doesn't care about its citizens. If it did, things might be very different. The simple fact of the matter is that a vast majority of politicians and bureaucrats – Democrats and Republicans alike – are only concerned with grabbing as much money for themselves and their friends as they possibly can. Serving the needs of the people is an auxiliary priority, if it is a priority at all. They are absolutely selfish, and I mean that according the traditional definition of the word, which means concern for yourself to the detriment of others, not Ayn Rand's custom definition which eliminates the “to the detriment of others” aspect (honestly, Ayn Rand should have just used the word “desire” instead – no unshakable negative connotations attached).

Now of course we need government, but its purpose should always be to protect us, never to provide for us (except for government employees). The task of providing for the entire population is simply too big to be handled by the government, and trying to do so cripples the economy, stripping people of their ability to provide for themselves, thus creating more poor people and increasing the size and cost of welfare programs. It's a destructive cycle that feeds into itself, and can only end in disaster. The correct solution is for the needs of the poor to be catered to through private charities, not government welfare.

Nevertheless, the author of the article does provide some good points to think about, even if he is only half-right.
SOURCE URL: http://www.salon.com/2013/12/28/why_i_fled_libertarianism_and_became_a_liberal/


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  • 11
    Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
    This writer is a born-again fool. >>" Libertarians think they own the word “freedom,” but it’s a word that often obfuscates more than enlightens. If you believe the Johann Wolfgang von Goethe quote “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free,” then libertarians live in a prison of their own ideology"<<

    As for Maph equating The Tea Party movement with the KKK and Libertarianism to The Tea Party movement, that's the most ad hominum nonsense I've read from him. it's as if we're speaking two entirely separate languages that have never had a proper translation made of them. It simply speaks to a pretentiousness of study and understanding of a topic he's attempting to expound on. It does, however add some explanation to some of his comments I've encountered concerning the wrongness or incompleteness of Rand's descriptions of Objectivism and a mind that relies on logic and rational thought. Even using the alleged 'traditional definition of the word', selfish as meaning 'concern for yourself to the detriment of others', only serves to brilliantly illustrate the concepts of obfuscation, semantic bastardization, and conflation from collectivist that disturbs me so much. I'm not sure of what 'tradition' that demonstrates, but I'm pretty positive that it's one that's alien to any region of this country that I'm familiar with, and I'm certainly not in agreement with.

    To mitigate what he might consider, as minor prickly intrusions into an Objective mind set and practice, added is a lot of discussion about items of helping the poor through private charity and a free market, but he wants to provide for government employees and then describes a correct solution for the needs of the poor as to be 'catered to;. And then caps it all off with 'some good points to think about, even if he's only half right'.

    I don't think I'm going to bother with these writings anymore. They're obviously not for the purpose of gaining further or expanded knowledge or understanding of Objective philosophy or AR or those that wish to live a life of rationality.

    Nuff said.
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  • 11
    Posted by Eudaimonia 10 years, 4 months ago
    I am one of those "teabaggers".

    I have *personally* stood up *against* the Klan in my lifetime.

    Your post resorts to ad hominem, as does the ridiculous and repugnant screed which you have linked to.

    This is not the first time you have posted articles, which you have agreed with, by groups and organizations openly hostile to Objectivism.

    So, if I have not already asked, I will ask now: why the hell are you here on this board?
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
      I'm here because I enjoy debating with you guys, and also because I thought Atlas Shrugged was a good story, even if I only agree with half of the things Ayn Rand said. ;)
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      • Posted by Eudaimonia 10 years, 4 months ago
        Well, since you're setting the terms of this debate, I'm going to assume it's OK if I bust out a can of egregious ad hominem and allegation on you.

        Let's see, what would be a fitting equivalent to the demeaning slur and blanket association you used against people like me?
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        • -6
          Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
          Well, the Tea Party is large enough that I suppose it is reasonable for there to be many people in it who do in fact differ from the more racist and Xenophobic wing of the party. I've read your posts, and you seem like a good person. It's really more people like Hiragram and davidkachel that I don't like. Everyone else on this forum is perfectly reasonable as far as I can tell.
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          • Posted by Eudaimonia 10 years, 4 months ago
            Thank you for making the distinction that I'm a good person who unfortunately associates with racists and xenophobes.

            That was very magnanimous.
            It means a lot to me.
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            • -4
              Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
              Do you associate with people who have the same beliefs as Hiragram or davidkachel?
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              • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
                I am an Objectivist. I do not ask people what their beliefs are maph. the tea part is about limited government. they are not talking about making more laws-but about getting rid of laws.
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                • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
                  Depends which ones you talk to. I see plenty of Tea Partiers (most of them, actually) who advocate passing laws banning abortion and marriage equality. That sounds like more laws to me, not less.

                  That's why I prefer Libertarianism instead.
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                  • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
                    Why are you so judgmental?
                    BTW, you are a social anarchist. I suggest checking out Puerto Rico if you are looking for a community to identity with. North of Ricon the beaches are littered with them.
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                    • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
                      *Looks up social anarchism*

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anar...

                      According to Wikipedia, social anarchists "believe in converting present-day private property into the commons or public goods, while retaining respect for personal property."

                      Hmmm, nope. That's not me. I oppose the collectivized ownership of private property. Private property needs to remain privately owned. There needs to be a legal distinction between commercial property and residential property, certainly, but I would not support collectivization of ownership.
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                      • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 4 months ago
                        Is that really the definition? How can you convert private property to public property while respecting private property?
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                        • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
                          Respecting personal property, Rozar, not private property. I know, the distinction confused me too when I first heard it.

                          Modern Socialists have developed the idea that there is a distinction between personal property and private property (which there kind of is, but not quite in the way they think). According to them, the two types of property are defined like this:

                          Private Property = commercial and industrial property (i.e. farms, stores, shops, studios, offices, factories, etc. -- basically, the means of production).

                          Personal Property = residential property and personal belongings (i.e. houses, cars, clothes, cell phones, computers, TVs, etc.).

                          Essentially they want collectivized ownership and control over the means of production (private property), but are willing to allow people to keep their own houses and personal belongings (personal property).

                          On the one hand, this conceptual distinction between businesses and homes is important to make, as the way government regulates each type of property must be different by necessity. But at the same time, the economic success of any nation requires that the means of production remain privately owned, so the Socialists are misguided in their attempts to collectivize ownership of private property.
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                          • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 4 months ago
                            Ah I see what you're saying. Fully disagree on the concept that there are different types of property though. I'll have to talk about that later though Thanks.
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                  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
                    Oh, really? The laws on the books make abortion legal. The laws being pushed redefine marriage.
                    There's where your "more laws" is coming from.

                    Maph... I do not and have never belonged to any Tea Party. I just agree with their agenda. It's not right for you to associate the Tea Party with me simply because you dislike us both.
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                    • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
                      The laws which made abortion legal replaced previously existing laws which made it illegal. Same goes for marriage equality (with the exception of New Mexico, where marriage was never specifically defined as being exclusively between a man and a woman). So I guess technically the number of laws on the books actually stays the same regardless. Nevertheless, it isn't the number of laws that matter, but whether those laws give us freedom or take freedom away.

                      And if you agree with the Tea Party's agenda, then you're one of them, regardless of whether or not you've ever officially joined one of their groups.
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                        It is too simplistic to say that the TEA Party is in favor of fewer laws. What they want is less governmental control of the people and a return to the principles of the Founding Fathers and the Constitution. They want a society built on unchanging principles and freedom of choice - not the flavor of the day that changes every time the wind blows.

                        I find it interesting that you would single out abortion and homosexuality as the two causes you would champion. Abortion is the very rejection of the Declaration of Independence which states that all are "created equal" with respect to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." You can not deny that abortion compromises this very foundational right to life and by consequence liberty and pursuit of happiness. With all the contraceptive methods available, it is a complete farce to suggest that abortion is a necessary part of society. And abortion's biggest advocates have all been eugenists on top of that. Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood openly praised abortion as the tool to eliminate blacks, Hispanics, and anyone else she deemed racially inferior.

                        Homosexual "marriage" is the same way. It is a counterfeit of true marriage and doesn't even have the means to perpetuate society. Societies that embrace it embrace self-destruction by definition. And that aside from STD's...

                        I can see why you would reject both libertarianism and the TEA Party - they don't fit your ideals. The thing that I pity about liberals is that they are so internally conflicted that they have to go about stating how everyone else is wrong just to try to convince people to agree with them so as to assuage their consciences. There's a much easier way - stop fighting your conscience and consider that it might be trying to tell you something important: that if it bugs your conscience, its probably self-destructive for you and destructive to society on top of that.

                        PS - you do realize that Mephaesdus is a mythical devil/demon, right - one who intentionally wanted to spread death and chaos among mankind? Your choice of a moniker says all that needs to be said - and more.
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
                        "The laws which made abortion legal replaced previously existing laws which made it illegal."

                        The primary law being... "murder".
                        IIRC, there never was a federal law specifically prohibiting abortion.

                        okay, so I'm glad you support passing laws giving me the freedom to marry my chihuahua and to have an Obamacare-funded species reassignment surgery to make myself into a giraffe (cause I really feel I was born a giraffe trapped in a man's body...)
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              • Posted by Eudaimonia 10 years, 4 months ago
                I'm not sure.
                How would you define H and DK each?
                Klansman and/or generic racist and/or generic xenophobe?
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                • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
                  Well, as far as I'm aware, neither one of them are actually members of the Klan, though they've both endorsed mass genocide and racism, so they have the same ideology, regardless.
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                  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
                    I've never endorsed genocide.
                    Conquest of the middle east, or a general war against Islam, is not the same as eliminating a genotype. Eugenics is a game for the left.

                    I've defended a person's right to be racist, homophiliac, sexist, ageist, or basically to like/dislike others based upon whatever criteria one chooses.
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                    • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
                      Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. Therefore, advocating the extermination of a particular religion or national group (in your case, Islam and Arabs) qualifies as advocating genocide.
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                      • Posted by Lucky 10 years, 4 months ago
                        Map-- I do not see the word 'exterminate' or 'destroy' here except in your post above.
                        H says ' war against..' If war is genocide then so would have been the North against the South.
                        H's use of the word genocide is correct to me tho' I may agree that the meaning has been widened recently by the progressivists to cover anything they do not like so it is now a useless word signifying outraged condemnation.
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  • Posted by Zero 10 years, 4 months ago
    --- WARNING ADULT CONTENT ---
    --- NO - REALLY - THIS WILL BE OFFENSIVE ---

    "Tea bagging" is when a male squats over his partner's face and lowers his scrotum into their mouth.

    It is not an obscure reference.
    College kids - and pervs of all ages - know exactly what "tea bagging" is.

    When first uttered in media interviews it was met with either shock, blank incomprehension, or nervous titters.

    Since then it has become a common derogatory tag.

    I am not one of those people who wear their indignation on their sleeve. Free discourse requires a thick skin.

    But if we were standing face to face our conversation would come to an abrupt halt as I took a menacing half-step forward and warned you in a voice not to be mistaken "Do NOT call me that again."

    --- END ADULT CONTENT ---

    I am proud to be Tea Party.
    The Boston Tea Party was a revolt against taxation.
    Nothing more - nothing less.

    So is the modern Tea Party.
    Nothing more - nothing less.

    It really begs the question:
    How can you NOT be Tea Party if you can do simple math?

    BTW, I am an Objectivist so by DEFINITION I am NOT a racist.
    Really - no joke - by DEFINITION.
    Racism is the lowest form of collectivist thought and the hallmark of a small mind.
    ----

    Not trying to get ugly on you Maph - you know we're good - you and I.
    But I really hate that ugly epithet and the way it has slipped into common usage.
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    • -2
      Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
      Alright, thanks, I'll refrain from using it here again. Sorry for offending you. ^_^
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      • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 4 months ago
        Perhaps you will take this lesson to heart and find out the meaning of a word before heaping onto people.
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        • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
          Come on, Pirate. Does anyone here really believe he didn’t know the slang meaning??? This is Maph we are talking about who has an extensive understanding and knowledge of anything to do with the LGBT community. He is patronizing us. The only “good hearts” around here, are you and Zero for offering an olive branch when you should be whacking Maph in the head with it. He knows exactly what he said. He is quietly laughing at us for falling for his Gomer Pyle impersonation again.

          “Golly, gee. I didn’t mean no harm”

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          • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 4 months ago
            Mini I have and had no doubts he knows exactly what it means, and used it intentionally. He has an agenda and he's pushing it. I was just in hopes that he might be stinging a bit from the reactions he got, but I really doubt it. He's done it before and will do it again. For someone who is demanding tolerance of others, he is one of the least tolerant I can think of.
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      • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
        I’m not sure I want to hang with somebody that would feel comfortable using that word to describe anybody, anytime, anywhere. Maybe you should go stand in the corner with the fascist for awhile.

        *BG*
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  • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
    I appreciate you taking the time to sum up that you are on a journey of self-discovery, but if you look around you this is a place for people who have a desired, chosen, or achieved destination.

    Calling Tea Party members teabaggers is really offensive, and considering how many times members here,many of them belonging to the Tea Party, who don’t share your ideas, took time and great care to dance around your liberal leanings just so not to offend you as the individual --I have to say --shame on you.
    Maph, we aren’t a social science project for midterm.
    You’ve got people around here thinking your a troll and I’m usually the first person to jump to your defense. It’s time you acknowledge that this is a site for fans of Atlas Shrugged.

    “I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
    Happy New Year, Maph.

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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
      Yeah, I guess I just wasn't really aware of how big a crossover there was between Tea Partiers and Objectivists. I would have worded my post differently if I had known. Sorry about that. :X

      Do you happen to know of any sites that are willing to discuss both the pros and cons of Atlas Shrugged? Cuz' that's kinda what I want, but so far I've only been able to find sites that either oppose it completely or embrace it completely. There's nothing in the middle...
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
        You don't want sites like that. I've defending what I consider pros of AS and attacked what I consider the cons of AS, and you don't like me and want me to shut up. So why would you want a whole site full of people who do the same?
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        • -1
          Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
          I don't think discussing both pros and cons would automatically produce fascists like you. Other people might have different opinions about what exactly the pros and cons are. :P
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  • Posted by $ kathywiso 10 years, 4 months ago
    Why the hell are you here. The Gulch is for those of us that believe in Ayn Rand's philosophy, that you and only you, are responsible for yourself. You are a waste of time. Find a democratic site to post on. Pfffttt...
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
      The part about personal responsibility and economic independence actually falls into the half of Ayn Rand's philosophy that I agree with.

      And I've tried posting on democratic forums as well, but I don't quite fit in there either, and Democrats get mad at me because I oppose Socialism and Progressivism while endorsing what they call "Reaganomics." =/
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      • Posted by Rocky_Road 10 years, 4 months ago
        "And I've tried posting on democratic forums as well, but I don't quite fit in there either,"

        Let's see: you try talking to the Democrats, and they don't like you.

        So you try talking to the Objectivists, and they get upset.

        You don't dare talk to the Tea Partiers, since you have pretty much burnt that bridge.

        You try to pee in the men's room, and you feel creepy, and out of place. So you try to use the women's room, and they feel even more creepy than you did.

        It must 'suck' to be you....

        But, Happy New Year!
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
        This is all MHO on something I'm still learning: People who are motivated to talk about public policy have an interest in promoting an ideology. Most of the world is different from these people and is out here solving problems. The world is run by those who show up. If you get out there and meet people who are in office and those who can bring donations, you can bring up specific issues of interest in a way you know won't offend. The boards of non-profits are often filled with people good at fund-raising, and they may be the same people or know the people who bring in political contributions. Tell them how happy you are when you get a vote consistent with what you would have. Give money to them even if you don't agree with everything. Get to know their staff, who are always at the fundraisers. When a vote is coming, mention a good talk you had with a staffer at the most recent fundraiser. That staffer may be the one reading it. You want him to report, "Gee mail, incl. mail from contributors, is really running against HR XYZ. Maybe we should see if someone can vote to get provision ABC stricken out of it so we won't alienate the libertarian techie crowd."
        I do this approach, and I've seen some success, BUT I can never know if they would have voted the same way without my lobbying. This is my lobbying approach. All the ideologue talking heads' bickering is nonsense, IMHO.
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        • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
          This sounds a lot like, 'If you can't beat em, join em' kind of logic.

          It seems a little to me as if you've decided to add to the problems, rather than to confront persistently and with vigor an infection that is killing you.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
    maph, no. you did not say teabaggers. that's hate speech. since I'm a teabagger-I feel all yesterday's cup of tea-totally worthless. thanks. how can I go on without some sort of assistance to get me through this rough patch
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    • Posted by Eudaimonia 10 years, 4 months ago
      You're a teabagger too?
      You must be one of the racists and xenophobes that I unfortunately associate with.
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      • Posted by MattFranke 10 years, 4 months ago
        "I'm not a racist, I hate everybody equally."
        Heard that years ago and it has worked for me. If a person shows that they deserve respect, I will give it. If not, then we have nothing to talk about. Race, sex and sexual preference don't really equal a spit in the river to me; if one is a good person with shared values, who isn't looking to control me or anyone else.
        It does seem to me that anytime 'tolerance' comes up in a conversation; that the one who screams about it the loudest, is usually the most intolerant person in the room; racism as well. Oh, well. Life is full of the little ironies.
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    • -1
      Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
      You too? Sorry, I don't mean you, khalling. You're one of the good ones. :X

      I only consider people like Hiragram and davidkachel to be "teabaggers."
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      • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
        Hiraghm is not with the Tea Party. He is a conservative.I mentioned we bend over for you but Hiraghm is the real challenge to our patience. Lol.
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        • -1
          Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
          I grew up in a predominantly conservative state, and I've never heard anyone around me in real life say the sort of blatantly fascist things he and dk have said, yet I have heard many Tea Partiers endorse similar beliefs. So forgive me if that's colored my view a bit.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
            Wait... you grew up in a conservative State devoid of Tea Partiers? I call BS...
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
              Where did I say there were no Tea Partiers in my state?
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
                "
                Posted by $ Maphesdus 1 day, 8 hours ago
                I grew up in a predominantly conservative state, and I've never heard anyone around me in real life say the sort of blatantly fascist things he and dk have said, yet I have heard many Tea Partiers endorse similar beliefs."

                Right there.You grew up in a conservative State where you didn't hear anyone say the sort of things I or dk have said... yet you HAVE heard such things from Tea Partiers... so, your State must have no Tea Partiers, or you would have heard someone say those kinds of things... or else Tea Partiers don't say those sort of things.

                Can't have it both ways, maph. I won't let you.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 4 months ago
    I'm glad you're here Maph. I can easily see this man's scenario having a place in reality. When I was younger, and communist, I went to a tea party rally just to watch it and make snide jokes about what they were saying. I had a plethora of material.

    I also attended a republican convention to elect a new governor for Wyoming. Some of the questions the crowd asked were so insane I couldn't believe the candidates were able to answer with a straight face.

    I don't see eye to eye with you on a lot of issues. And that's okay. It's probably even healthy. I find myself somewhere I never thought I'd be, finding allies in people who are racist, or religious, or what most people would call (maybe rightly so) insane.

    But whatever flaws you or I find in them, like it or not we are all allies here. In some form or another we have a common bond on a few principles. I think it's funny how he saw the connection between libertarians and the crazy uncle, ironic because if it was my uncle I would acknowledge it and do my best to help him, not abandon him.

    That's how I view the libertarians, as family for better or worse. Honestly in a lot of instances closer than family because these crazy bastards have at a minimum one piece of the puzzle in their hands. I can't say the same for much of my biological family.

    All I'm trying to say is whatever you do, don't follow this man's decisions. Even in this short blog you can see his mind shutting down and accepting social norms just so he can fit in. He knows he is not his neighbors keeper. He knows children aren't going to die in the street. He's just tired of defending his crazy uncle.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
      You used to be a communist!? Ha! That's funny! What made you leave communism, and what do you believe in now? :)

      And I don't think I'm ever going to go down the same route as this guy. Reading Ludwig von Mises pretty much destroyed any possibility of me ever buying into Progressive or Socialist ideology.

      Also, thanks for being the only person to respond respectfully. It means a lot.
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  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 4 months ago
    The guy said he grew up in Battle Mountain. Approaching Battle Mountain on I-80 the town has erected a sign that says "Battle Mountain - The Arm Pit of the World".
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
      snort.
      “I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
      happy new year, pirate
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      • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
        Wait...I’ll go get another glass of eggnog and join you.
        “I swear my my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

        Happy New Year’s Kh.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
          yes, mimi.
          “I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
          happy new year. I am grateful that I know you and get the gift of your pith and wit
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
    I read only the first half. I agree that libertarians have way more than our share of clowns. Ayn Rand supporters seem to be over 50% pure a$$holes who have found an ideology that they can make work with being a jerk.

    None of that "company we keep" should affect our ideology. I don't stop liking Rand's books and moderate libertarian ideas just because it puts me in a group with a lot of jerks and nuts.

    I actually think if libertarians formed a party that eagerly accepted anyone who agreed with decreasing gov't power and gov't expenditures (even by 1%), it would be a libertarian revolution. Most Americans, I suspect, want moderate libertarian policies--- less gov't messing with them, a little lower taxes and little less gov't services. Our voting choices are the "bipartisan consensus" of Dem/GOP arguing about marriage rights or libertarian nut jobs. I really wish we had a moderate libertarian option.
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
      Ad hominum, Ad hominum - nuts, assholes, and jerks. What amazing analytic thought processes. I'm in awe.

      If you're a 'moderate libertarian', then you're not a libertarian, you're something else. Why not spend a little brain energy deciding what you are?

      As to 'libertarian nut jobs', maybe we just ought to come up with another party for all nuts - wait, we already have - they're called democrats, progressive liberals.
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  • Posted by $ 10 years, 4 months ago
    Geez, I didn't realize that so many people who consider themselves to be Objectivists also consider themselves to be members of the Tea Party. I thought this was just a forum for Objectivists. I didn't know there was such a large crossover between the two groups. If I had known that beforehand, I would have used different language in my post. >.>

    Sorry to all those I offended! ^_^;;;
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    • Posted by Eudaimonia 10 years, 4 months ago
      When you get the time, please research the following Tea Party supporters and featured speakers.

      Dineen Borelli,
      C.L. Bryant,
      Herman Caine,
      Alfonzo Rachel,
      Allen West,
      Larry Elder,
      Kevin Jackson,
      Allen Keyes

      You might find that one of your premises is incorrect.

      Have a Happy New Year.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
        Being a racist and xenophobe, I felt compelled to support Allen Keyes in his bid for the White House, because, y'know... black man.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
      Instead of being offended, libertarians (maybe not quite the same thing as Objectivists) should ask the Tea Party to condemn racism and homophobia and say their one focus is cutting gov't spending. They could optionally add a second focus of cutting gov't intrusiveness.

      Obviously they can do what they want, but it seems to me the "bipartisan consensus" is we all argue about gun control, abortion, PPACA, and equal marriage rights. The "bipartisan consensus" says we cannot even debate scaling back the overall size and intrusiveness of gov't.

      The bipartisan consensus urges us to debate race, sex, sexual orientation, and anything that gets people fired up and not questioning the fundamental role of gov't.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
        Like with this site there is only one thing that brings that group together. Individuals can believe or be a party to many other political platforms. Making a tea party agenda of condemning racism and homophobia seems misplaced. It 's acknowledging that the tea party has racist and homophobic elements to a greater degree than any other legitimate group. That would be false. It 's a straw man. One meets people like that but unless you 're talking a group with the expressed purpose of such, why pretend it 's a problem in your group? Ive met plenty of progressive racists. Just because a group denounces racism doesn't mean its policies don 't promote it. Less govt less taxation does not promote racism or homophobia. So if you 're such why would you want to be part of a group that already cannot further your agenda?
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
          I think you're saying that even if the Tea Party has a higher rate of sexism, homophobia, etc, people who constantly point that out are essentially saying to the Tea Party, "Wait, wait! We're supposed to be arguing about pointless hot button issues, not changing the nature of gov't. Get back on topic!"

          In other words, my even asking them to respond to hot button issues is distracting from the their point. I'm falling in to the trap of trying to ask everyone to be on one side or the other of the bi-partisan consensus that we accept growth in gov't and argue about social issues.

          I'm going to start saying I support the Tea Party. If people say, "Yeah, but they believe in homophobia," I'll bring it back to their central message of less gov't.
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          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
            cg, I'm close to a down vote on this.
            the tea party is not filled with sexist, homophobic, etc(whatever else you want to accuse it of) individuals. those people do exist. They belong to all types of groups. There is not one shred of evidence you can provide that shows a disproportionate number of those kinds of people are attending tea party events or belong to a tea party group. and further-I can provide evidence to show that groups that denounce racism actually engage in racism and promote it. let's start with Louis Farrakhan. and move to sexists-supporters of Maureen Dowd.
            you want to make a villian out of a group. check your premises. the tea party is dominated by individuals who want less govt and fair taxation. which means less taxation. they are not thumping the lectern about gay marriage, anti-woman, anti-minority, anti-gay. and to say otherwise is uninformed or purposefully misleading.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
              Here's what I think you're saying now: "Yes, CG you're exactly right, except the part of sexism and homophobia is only hypothetical. I don't think they have a higher rate of bigotry. But even if they did, I'm saying, it would still be wrong to focus on that. It would just be poisoning the well to detract from the core message of limited gov't."
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              • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
                no. I am saying you argue a strawman. You have decided for some reason that the tea party is full of bad people who are bigots. and etc (I love the etc. part) and I refuse to argue something that is not true in my experience with the tea party. I am a tea party member. Show me the bigoted, sexist, homophobic posts I make in here. that is my point. Secondary to that point is assigning to a group a bunch of baseless allegations is not rational. and then I gave examples how what your accusing the group to condone (one group-out all groups for some reason) a collective personality of hate is illogical. To prove the point, I took all the hate you accuse one group of and show you how groups whose express purpose is to work against these hate concepts-actually endorse said hate. It is to illustrate that groups are made up of individuals. Individuals hate. Groups have agendas and goals. the tea party has the agenda and goal of less government. Your stereotyping is offending me. and I do not offend easily. but I get darn tired of propaganda working its wiles on smart individuals. so prove that the tea party is a bunch of bigots or concede the argument.
                finally-what is up with this tactic of restating my position incorrectly and then arguing the incorrect restatement? it is annoying in the extreme and not like you
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
                  I most likely was not clear b/c you appear to be arguing something I already agree with.

                  I thought you were saying the Tea Party may have a slightly higher rate of bigotry, but pointing that out in a debate about Tea Party ideas is poisoning the well.

                  You're actually saying the Tea Party does not have a higher rate of bigotry.

                  I don't know know whether it has a higher rate of bigotry, but I think either way it's poisoning the well.
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          • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
            I think a big part of the difficulty in this argument is that there is no tea party group. It's rather, a movement consisting of a large number of groups spread across a vast region of this country. The only commonalities are: the budget, deficits, and the debt; a return to Constitutional governance; a smaller government; no more bail outs, and that they feel they're being excluded from the national discussion about where we're heading as a nation. It is not a party with a platform, but a movement from disparate constituencies.

            The flack being shot in is from liberal progressives as well as establishment republicans and is solely to discredit. There are black and other minority Tea Party groups. The racist and homophobe labels seem to come primarily from the left as a result of a perceived or propagandized bias against Obama as an individual rather than against Obama's policies and actions. The homophobe and sexism tags come from the same group just to maintain legitimacy with what the left sees as core activist groups. Republican establishment voices seem satisfied with just throwing out tags such as nuts and whacko birds. They fear the loss of their careers and power positions.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
        Instead of spending so much effort trying to define (or mis-define) others, spend that much defining yourself.

        The latter part of your statement is something I can agree with, whole-heartedly and is a point many seem unable to voice with clarification.
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