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Hostile Environment For Inventors Harms Our Economy

Posted by khalling 9 years, 1 month ago to Politics
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"Whether we continue to lead the world in software, or we are displaced by China is now uncertain. In
stark contrast to the U.S., China and the rest of the world have been strengthening the Exclusive Right
and the Presumption of Validity for patents in their respective countries. 46
These positive changes are
stimulating innovation in those countries and growing their economies. The U.S., unfortunately, is going
in the opposite direction. We are weakening patent protection. Today, we have more companies going
out of business than starting up for the first time in our history. If we continue down this anti-patent
road, the U.S. will no longer lead. China will.
Congress, the administration and the courts all see that the patent system as broken. They are right. It
is broken. But not for the reasons they think it is broken. The facts have been hijacked by the loud
impermeable voices of those who benefit from weak patent rights. Those negatively affected, the
inventors and the American public, cannot get a word in edgewise. If we continue to enact broad
changes under the misguided “patent troll” arguments, we can expect even greater damage to our
economy and our standing in the world.
We must go the other way. We must stop the further weakening of the U.S. patent system. Congress
must pass laws negating the effects of eBay vs. MercExchange so that a patent is again an Exclusive
Right. The Presumption of Validity must also be restored by eliminating PGO’s and other provisions of
the AIA. The misguided “abstract idea” category of patentable subject matter must be eliminated
altogether. Lastly, the PTO must be fully funded and better managed.
Without these changes – setting it back to what it was just a decade ago – we will become like all other
countries – unexceptional. Someone else will lead future technology revolutions. Perhaps that country
will be China and our generation will be known for the greatest blunder in history."
SOURCE URL: http://www.independentinventorsofamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Investment-Grade-Asset_V2-1-1.pdf


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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 1 month ago
    the associated pdf explains PGO and AIA;;; things
    really are screwed up!

    how did we get this way? . seems like the Thomas
    Edisons, the Teslas and the Wrights might have taught
    us something ....... -- j

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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 1 month ago
    Wow..what a mess :( I fear this is so far gone, just like everything else in this country, that the only way back is a full collapse, revolt... and a strong, moral rebuild. It's quite sickening. :(
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      wow, you read the whole thing? I mean, we kinda have to because we support this organization, but it was LONG. He needs the powerpoint version for us to put out there.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 1 month ago
        Well don't quiz me but yeah... I didn't know that about ebay... not sure I totally understand it... other companies stole their what exactly?
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        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
          nutshell: Ebay sued for infringement, loses, then argues that an injunction should not follow. an injunction is an order to stop someone from using your property. The Supremes agreed with ebay. it's like owning a house, someone moves in to your guest bedroom, the court agrees, but they say say, as long as they are willing to pay a "reasonable" rent, you can't kick them out.
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  • Posted by mccwho 9 years, 1 month ago
    One of the biggest failures is the "First to File instead of First to invent" The small guys are smashed by the big guys on this one.
    Enforcement is the next blunder. They steal your idea, make it, sell it, then when you send them a letter to desist, they just say sue us; we have more money then you, good luck.
    There have been several small inventors smashed this way.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
      Hear hear. I and others have argued this is unconstitutional. The Constitution does not say protect the right to the first one to file and the first to file is not an inventor. Words have meanings.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
    Calling an inventor a "patent troll" because he won't share his creation like some socialist serf sounds like the words of an antagonist in an Ayn Rand novel.
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    • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
      Isn't the term patent troll reserved for people that try to patent everything so as to stop others from doing pretty much anything? But they have no intention of actually making anything
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      • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
        this statement is one of ignorance. Inventors sell the rights to their patents, which they cannot afford to prosecute infringers on. This is highly common. They lose their hard earned money by designing and making new inventions. Large companies steal that tech, knowing that the small inventor cannot afford to litigate. Licensing companies buy up patents that are hugely infringed. They offer licencing agreements to the infringers. If there is no resolution and the infringers continue to infringe, they take them to court. All the infringers had to do was due diligence. In fact, their atorneys tell them not to, so as to limit damages down the road. We represent that small inventor who wants to make a living inventing.This is capitalism./ What are you supporting?
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        • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
          Well, I am that small inventor, and I know that its pretty easy to get around a patent after the fact that is out there to be seen. The whole system is corrupt now, and set up for the benefit of the patent attorneys. The idea of protecting the product of ones mind is OK, but the way its done now just stifles true invention unless you have a LOT of money to throw at the system. In my experience, people who simply copy others work don't get very far anyway because they dont know the why's of why things were done a certain way.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
            1. it is NOT set up for the benefit of the patent attorneys. Imagine how the attorney feels when he cannot get a good invention through the process for his client because of the political pressure to not allow. We have had Examiners say that very thing to us. There is proof that the PTO has "buried" applications that the govt found sensitive to natl security interests and big corporations didn't want to see allowed. In the America Invents Act, there are at least 3 provisions which benefit one industry or company (that's right one company) from being sued for patent infringement. See Data Treasury.
            2. Working around existing patents is completely legal. What is it you are really concerned about? that patents are weak or that they inhibit other inventions? we can discuss both arguments, but either you believe one or the other, it can't be both.
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            • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
              1. perhaps I am grouping the patent office and the patent attorneys together when they should be separated. point taken. the net result however is that its kind of a financial disaster for the small inventor. The last time I did a patent the cost was about $50k to see the whole process through, and several years before you found out of you were going to get anything for it.
              2. Unfortunately, I can have it both ways I think. Working around a patent is an intellectual exercise which can make an existing expensive patent moot. Also, It is the fear of somehow being sued after the fact for patent infringement that inhibits other inventions. Practically speaking, my comments are that the process doesnt help lone inventors. Check out the intermittent winshield wiper patent (was made into a movie) fiasco.
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              • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
                Under the Bush Administration the head of the patent office (Jon Dudas), who was not a patent attorney and not technical, changed the law. He created another requirement that quality was rejecting patent applications. There were examiners running around at the time saying they had 100% quality because they had a 0% allowance rate. I discuss this in both my nonfiction book, The Decline and Fall of the American Entrepreneur, and it forms a big part of our fiction book, Pendulum of Justice.

                I cannot speak for all patent attorneys, but having an irrational patent office was not good for my business and made my life miserable. I think this was true for all patent attorneys who worked with start-ups and individual inventors. Imagine having to spend every day arguing with a patent office with irrational rules - not fun and not profitable. If my clients could not get their patent issued it made it harder to raise capital that would lead to more research and inventions and therefore more patent work for me..
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                • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
                  would definitely take the fun out of your work. This very problem was what made me give up making medical devices- once the FDA took over regulating those items, it became so onerous dealing with agents who didnt know what they were talking about, but who could stop you for months at a time (at one point it took 18 months to get "permission" to sell the product to willing customers. I "shrugged" and went into producing unregulated things. Who knows if I might have come up with some great life-saving medical device. That will be left to the people who haven't yet "shrugged"
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                  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
                    In fact in our novel, Pendulum of Justice, one of the problems they face is the FDA and the costs of trials. Once the Patent office deep sixes their patent application so cronies can se, they cannot get funding for the FDA trials
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                  • Posted by $ KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
                    One of the saddest parts of our economy today. Who knows how many life saving or altering products have never come to market because of that exact issue. Unfortunately, I believe a large part of this is intentional. The big boys work with government to make the process so difficult that they don't have to worry much about competition. Crony Capitalism at its finest.
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                    Our novel Pendulum of Justice deals with the medical device market and the PTO and FDA. Based on real technology that would forever change the stint industry, it languishes due to bureaucracy and the time it took to get an issued patent.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                I'll let Db address the patent work around deal. $50K (I assume you are simply talking about patent costs and not R &D totals). Did you file worldwide? because the amount is significantly higher than average. If we are talking costs-I would agree. Did you know that the PTO is the ONLY self-funding agency of the US govt. and the Treasury stole over 1 Billion from those fees inventors pay to fund other things-leading to long pendancy times etc. In fact, Paul Ryan, who supposedly is an AS fan, voted against an amendment to the AIA to fully fund the Patent Office.
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                • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
                  Interesting but we didnt file worldwide, as the patent systems in many other countries are more cumbersome and you have to file before you sell any product or have any idea your invention going to be a success. As I remember, you have a year here in the USA to let the product out before you have to file and not lose your opportunity.
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                    I am sorry for how much you paid. There are attorneys out there who charge flat fees to file and flat fees for Office Actions totally nowhere near to $50K. I don't have enough specifics, but you have a year to file a PCT (foreign filing) from the date of your first US filing (this would include provisionals). Db does not recommend foreign filing for small inventors due to cost and protection value. But it would depend on your industry.
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    • Posted by $ KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
      I am not calling an inventor a patent troll. I am calling a patent troll a patent troll. The inventor in question patented reading magazine articles onto a cassette tape. In 2009, he applied for an updated patent to cover any chronological episodic material loaded onto a server to be recalled from a specific URL. That technology had been in use since at least 1993, but the patent office allowed him to secure this patent. That is a patent troll. He has never produced a podcast, yet has filed suit against dozens of people for producing something that was on the free market 16 years before he applied for the update.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
        the phrase "patent troll" is a construct made up by PR firms representing Big Business. they hate small inventors. Both Jobs and Gates said what they fear the most is that guy inventing in his garage. Who are you? why do you show up now and just spread dis-information about patents? perhaps you know that this is a hot button issue on the floors of both Congresses
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  • Posted by KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
    While I agree that the weakening of our patent system is a major problem, I wouldn't dismiss the patent troll argument all together either. Like most things in our govt today, there seems to be a total lack of common sense. Awarding a patent for something that is already in common usage for the sole purpose of profiting from that usage is not a hard thing to fix. Did you know that a single man holds the patent for the modern "playlist"? He is currently suing Podcasters because they publish a "playlist" of content to be listened to in a stated order. By his logic in court filings, he could sue every lovesick child of the 80's for the mix-tapes we made for our girlfriends.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      KSilver, welcome. We are are very familiar with this case and have spoken to the owner of the patents in question. I assume you are talking about the Corolla case. From your comment above, I see many flat out incorrect statements. This is the insidiousness small inventors face. The patents in question do not cover existing ideas that are out there for anyone to use. In fact, the web site designers for Mr. Corolla were particularly interested in choosing this specific technology a simple patent search could have uncovered. A license could have been easily obtained. The "patent troll" is actually the INVENTOR of the technology, who invested over 1 million of his own money and 15 years of his life. His technology has been stolen and no one fears retribution. He has limited money to take on infringers. In fact, Mr. Corolla did such a big PR job on this case Mr. Logan tried to withdraw the case-he didn't have the money to fight it. Mr. Corolla, riding the anti-patent wave said-No. So they are going to court and Mr. Logan still has a valid patent that is being infringed and he receives no revenues for Mr. Corolla's use of it. From your statements above, I know that you are mis-informed and are formulating your opinions on bad information. Please ask some questions. I will give you sound information. what I don't know I will defer to dbhalling, who is an expert in this area. The first thing you should know is that patent property rights are the most expensive, most lengthy fought right to take title to. Let's say it took 10 years and thousands of dollars to take title to your car or house and that you would have to fight every step of the way to finally own it. Inventors face this with every invention they seek to protect.
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      • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 1 month ago
        Khalling: Thank you for your efforts on this most important subject. It is appreciated. Your and db's insight into this grievous situation is alarming... Again, it is the tip of the iceberg, because so few are aware of this subterfuge implemented by the system be that courts and/or government that blatantly allows for the possession and distribution of stolen property!!!
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      • Posted by KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
        One more thing. Mr. Logan did not attempt to withdraw because of cost. Mr. Logan has stated publicly that he attempted to withdraw after financial discovery because he found out that Carolla did not have nearly as much money as he thought he did. Carolla ended up having to settle because he ran out of money. The cost of litigation exceeded $650,000, and he couldn't afford to fight it anymore.
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      • Posted by KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
        I have to disagree with a lot of the "facts" you put forth here. I have read extensively on this case including the patent applications and the court filings. I'm sure the holder of the patents puts forth a convincing argument, however the facts can't be avoided. Personal Audio filed for a patent in 1996 in order to produce cassette tapes with magazine articles read on them. I will mention that they never actually produced any of these, or sold the rights to produce them. They simply secured a patent. In 2009, they filed for an update to this patent to cover any chronological episodic content stored on a server, and accessed by private technology through a unique URL. That is how he has gone after podcasts and services that provide unique playlists. The problem is by 2009 when Personal Audio applied for this update, this technology was well in use. That is why PA filed this as a patent update to their 1996 patent. Since they filed as an update, they were able to go back to the 1996 date to claim their IP rights. However, the patent office should never have allowed this update. The first podcast on record started in 1993, and by 2004, the technology was very common. In fact, Adam Carolla started his podcast in February of 2009, and the patent update wasn't even applied for until March of 2009 and wasn't approved until 2012. Personal Audio has never produced a podcast, has no staff on file, and only has two employees on their state corporate filing forms. This is a clear example of someone who is attempting to profit from the patent system and someone else's work. You said a "license could have been easily obtained", however Personal Audio has never marketed or sold a single license for their "proprietary technology" that was in common everyday use as early as 2006.

        I wholeheartedly agree that our patent system has been virtually destroyed, and the ability of a small business to protect their Intellectual Property is one of the worst problems facing our economy today. In that we are in agreement. I just don't want to rule out one very real problem in order to fix another. Both problems are very real. There are people out there who are simply using the patent system to profit off other peoples work just as much as their are people taking advantage of lax IP laws to destroy inventors. I have a personal friend who has patented a health care product. While his patent is in tact at this point, the big pharma companies have sued him at every turn on everything from naming rights to packaging similarities, etc. His product has been proven in numerous lab studies to work better than a product on the market from one of the big boys. However, the litigation is going to put him out of business. J&J's legal counsel even told him that they would lose if it ever came to court, however, they knew they could put him out of business in legal costs before it ever got there.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
          "The patent office shouldn 't have allowed this update..." 1. It is not an update. It is a new application that builds on the technology of the prior patent. It is legal and done all the time to go back and claim the original priority date.
          2. What the heck is your expertise in saying what should be allowed and what shoudn't? Are you a patent atty, a patent examiner, a CAFC judge with the accepted credentials to determine patent validity? This is exactly the kind of thing I 'm talking about. I don 't feel comfotable telling a cardiologist he misread my Ekg. Yet all sorts of people think they can weigh in on the patent debate and say what is or isn 't an invention, how to read and analyze claim construction, whether the system is broken or not. Fact is you 've been the unwitting dupe of a masterful PR campaign funded by big business and that campaign is full of lies and junk science designed ellicit your opinion from emotion. As Adam Mosoff says about the patent reform debate. It takes no time at all to throw unsubstantiated arguments out there or false statistics. While those of us trying to find the truth have to have time and present solid research. Before that process can complete senators and politicians are already crying for reform and legislation all built on crap. Well this is our industry and we are the friend of the small inventor out there getting atyacked by cronies and many libertarians and a bunch of people riding the misinformation train.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
          you have written alot here k. and you are new to this site. what is your motive here? are you a fan of Rand? are you Objectivist? Db is an expert in this field. He is a EE MS physics and a patent attorney. As well, he writes extensively on these issues and is peer reviewed. Within the last several days, there have been new members to the board who are taking on these anti-patent arguments, and as well we know what's politically happening in DC. Your information is wrong and I worry that you are on this site to propagate fear and dis-information. I am hiding your comments as they are emotive, without cite and plain wrong. We are very familiar with this case. Who has asked you to join this site and for what purpose?
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          • Posted by KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
            I would also point out that I have made comments on several threads on the site over the last several days since I joined. You simply disagree with this one, so you accuse me of being a plant.
            Was I also a plant on adult immunizations? Global warming? Chicago police black sites? Dazbog coffee?
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          • Posted by KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
            Is that what Rand would have done? Block someone who disagrees? Besides, I agree with 98% of what you are saying, I just don't dismiss the fact that there are in fact also people taking advantage of the patent system to profit off other's work. Here's something you can't refute- a direct quote from Mr. Logan's own press release when he first attempted to withdraw:

            "When Personal Audio first began its litigation, it was under the impression that Carolla, the self-proclaimed largest podcaster in the world, as well as certain other podcasters, were making significant money from infringing Personal Audio’s patents. After the parties completed discovery, however, it became clear this was not the case. As a result, Personal Audio began to offer dismissals from the case to the podcasting companies involved, rather than to litigate over the smaller amounts of money at issue."

            I read Atlas for the first time when I was a freshman in high school, and have re-read it at least once a year since then. I contributed financially to the movies, and donate yearly to the foundation. Just because I disagree with you on one minor part of an argument in which we mostly agree doesn't mean I am a plant. You paint with the broad brush and say there's no such thing as a patent troll. I simply state there are. That doesn't change the fact that the patent system is broken. We can work together to fix one problem without agreeing on all of them.
            If you had any intellectual honesty, you would quickly unblock my comments. Ayn's gulch had free, open debates every night, and dissent and discussion were valued. "I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another to live for me."
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            • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
              1. The process of discovery in part is for the plaintiff to determine lost revenue from the infringement. You would calculate that into the cost of litigation. He had tried to settle several times and then tried to dismiss. Corolla would not dismiss. That part you left out of the PR statement. If Carolla has now dropped the case it is new information to me.
              2. An inventor is an inventor regardless of whether he ever manufactures.
              3. What is your experience in reading claims.? The patents involved take alot of time by experienced people to determine infringement or validity.
              4. We look at this issue every day, my husband writes books on intellectual property, we analyze the data on litigation, litigation rates and supreme court cases. You can disagree all you want but I have given facts, presented cited arguments while you have given opinion not based on solid evidence. Further, you also continue to use pejoratives when speaking about inventors. Rand revered inventors. By your own definition Edison would have been a "patent troll. " I unhid your comments because you said the Oath. But it's very annoying to have to argue from mis information or junk science i.e. you 've read the patents so...
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              • Posted by KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
                For someone who states that you follow this case daily, I expected you would know that Carolla settled in March of 2014, with an agreement to not speak on it for 6 months.
                Again, I agree wholeheartedly with almost every statement you have made on patent infringment. I will fight that battle side by side with you on every hill except the Personal Audio case and others like it. The problems in our economy surrounding IP Law are one of the main reasons we are losing leadership in a global technology economy. And we haven't even touched on the IP theft from China which has the practical blessing of the government there. I agree that patent infringment will cause not only the death of the small inventor, but also the death of small business, and existing businesses to move themselves to countries with stronger IP laws. I am willing to agree with you on all of that. I would simply ask you to acknowledge that there are people out there who take advantage of the patent system from the other side as well. The two arguments are not mutually exclusive.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                  see-it is mis statements like this which become exhausting to follow around and refute. The case was settled in AUGUST. the gag order was 45 DAYS. Carolla has been talking non-stop for the PR since OCTOBER. I did NOT say I followed the case DAILY. I said we had followed it closely and I said I did not know about the settlement. Guess why? we are out there putting out other fires. Two major Supreme Court cases and politics for two reasons. It is exhausting refuting either lies or mis information. While I'm correcting your comments, there are other major Patent law decisions and propaganda to chase down and refute with facts. I said from the beginning there are bad actors out there. In every industry, in our government. How bad? and to the cost of whom? and why weaken property rights if you have a few abusers? these are all complicated issues which experts are working on. stay tuned for YOUR politicians to pass MORE legislation about an area they are clueless in but believe the PR campaigns of anti-patent crowd. You still have not produced one shred of objective evidence that Carolla did not infringe Logan's patents
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                  • Posted by KSilver3 9 years, 1 month ago
                    I'm confused by you. First, your "facts" are incorrect, and then you seem to have a vitriolic response to anyone who disagrees with you. I love that I found the gulch because I relish a good debate, and find progress is made in an open dialogue. You seem to just get angry with anyone who has a differing opinion. If I am bothering you, I can certainly take my ball and find a different thread to play on here.
                    The settlement was reached in March. PA, as the plaintiff, was responsible for filing the proper paperwork. They filed paperwork for a dismissal "with prejudice" when the settlement agreement was for a dismissal "without prejudice", meaning both parties accept no fault and retain all future legal rememdies. It took them until August to file the correct paperwork. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake, your "facts" are incorrect.
                    You say I am a dupe of a PR scheme, and am only emoting, however I have put forth several salient facts that you have not even acknowledged. The primary fact is that the technology that PA is suing over was not even covered under their patent when Adam Carolla began his show. If I'm wrong there, please cite the technology in the original 96 patent that applied to this suit. I'll tell you, it will be hard to do since PA couldn't even do that in their court filings. They cited the 2009 update application. The patent office should never have approved an update to the patent when the technology the update was to cover had been in wide use as early as 2004 and in the market since 1993. Rhapsody offered suggested playlists based on listening habits, the disputed tech, as early as 2007. In fact, you stated that a simple patent search would have let Carolla know, however the patent update wasn't approved until 2012, so a search when he went into business would not have shown him this. Prior to the approval of the update in 2012, the patent in question did not cover server based episodic content with listening habit recommendations. PA's own filings state that. The patent number used in their filings is the updated patent approved in 2012. The only reason they were able to file at all was because, for some reason, the patent office allowed them to patent new technology as an update to an old patent, hence backdating their rights by 16 years. Is a business supposed to patent search their business every year in perpetuity to make sure someone hasn't patented what they have been doing for years?
                    The only "facts" I have heard from you is that your husband is a patent attorney, and you spoke to one of the litigants. Those aren't facts. I have not spoken to either litigant, so don't have any primacy bias, and my professional background is in IP law. In that, I am probably less biased since I have no direct relationship to either party. In fact, I have never listened to a single episode of Carolla's show. Can you refute the fact that the patent update cited in the suit wasn't even applied for until 2 weeks after Carolla began his show? And, if not, why should a patent update be approved to retroactively cover existing business practices. One of the two key burdens of a patent application is exclusivity. If Carolla, and thousands of others, were already using this technology when the update was applied for in March of 2009, how did PA prove that they had exclusivity? If they couldn't prove that they had exclusivity in 2009, on what grounds did they file for an update to an old patent to cover this new technology? I don't necessarily blame PA. If the PTO is going to allow deceptive business practices, why not attempt to take advantage. However, as Hank Reardon would tell you, the joy is in creating something no one else can, not in profiting off of other's work.
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    • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
      We should stop trying to use patents to squelch competition. When you really innovate, you get a few years to get your money back without competition. We need to use that time to secure a market position and get our costs down so we can compete. Otherwise, in one way or another, we will lose.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
        term2. Competition is not what grows or creates wealth. It assumes scarcity. Invention is about creation. New industries mushrooming overnight. disruptive invention gave you the internet and a smart phone
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
        Right and we should stop using property rights to squelch competition. Your competitors should be able to use your facilities, or your employees, or your inventions in the name of competition. That is a nonsensical statement. Either you have property rights or not.
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        • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
          Doesn't sound so good when you phrase it that way. From a practical standpoint. There are patent trolls out there who are just using patents to prevent me from using something that I thought up myself without no help from them. The system is clogged with these so called "inventions" that will never be made
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          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
            Sure, like Edison, Bell, and Tesla were patent trolls You have no idea what you talking about.

            1) Is a patent a property right?
            2) If it is a property right, can it be sold to others?
            3) Can those others enforce that right?

            Substitute a house or a car for an invention/patent and you will see the absurdity of your opinion.
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            • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
              BUT, the way its done by our government isnt good for anyone except the crony capitalists. Try and invent something new nowadays and you live in fear of the patent trolls who have beaten you to the punch with the legal system and prevent you from taking advantage of YOUR OWN YOUR work. A house or a car is a specific physical object. The intellectual items can be separately figured out by multiple people completely independently, but only the FIRST one gets protection from the government. I am having trouble understanding why only ONE of these people gets property rights, and the rest of them are screwed out of the results of THEIR work.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
            you are making wild claims with no evidence to support them. We spend our lives in this area. Give us evidence. Otherwise your claims are emotive.
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            • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
              I take it you are IN the patent system. I am on the other side really, as a lone inventor. At last count I got 26 patents over my career. My claims are not based on emotion, but I have seen the gross cost of patent attorneys firsthand, the requirement that you file for the patent even before you know that your product will make enough money to even pay for the patent process, and the ridiculous cost of defending your patent in the courts. The system is just broken, no matter how it was intended.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
    Here's the deal on this post. I will vigorously use voting, flagging and hiding with individuals who propagate mis-information about the patent process, litigation and infringement. It should be pretty uncomfortable for Austrians and anarchos to make statements on this site which are anti-inventor, anti-capitalist. Here is Db's talk at the Atlas Society from last summer: Why is John Galt an Inventor? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQppLW4e...
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 9 years, 1 month ago
    The current IP laws ale insane, especially in digital media. They criminalize everyone and make very difficult fully benefiting from full utilization of technology we have access to today. Software patents are especially bad. It is like patenting a mathematical algorithm not only charging rent on using it but prohibiting others from using it at will, even if they discovered it for themselves. They are notoriously written in an overly broad fashion. Large companies seek to make agreements with other large patent portfolio holding companies to get much of anything done. They do not do it as an attack on individual inventors as this piece would lead us to believe.

    Copyright for 99 years beyond life of holder is insane. In a world of accelerating change a patent or copyright that can limit the use of others makes no sense imho for a period of more than 5-10 years.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
      Yes our IP laws are in confusion, but you diagnosis of the problem has not lead you to the right treatment.

      1) Software is not mathematics, it is a way of wiring an electronic circuit.
      2) To be against s/w patents you have to be against all patents on electronic circuits.
      3) Our patent laws have been significantly weakened over the last decade and a half by large companies, so that the game is rigged in their favor. The answer is to strengthen our patent laws, including s/w, not weaken them.
      4) There is no macroeconomic evidence for you desire to shorten patent lives. Those countries with the strongest patent systems create most of the new technologies and have the most technology dispersion. Actually, the macroeconomic evidence would be to extend the term of patents.

      5) Copyright terms may be too long but it was about HARMonizing our copyright laws with the rest of the world.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
    I am not so sure that patents are really worth a lot. Its so easy to get around them, and then to protect them it takes $$$$$ in court. Chinese stuff is cheaper than ours because they work faster and cheaper then we do. Our entitled american workers are just outclassed by the Chinese, and we need to up our game and reduce our entitled expectations so we can compete in the world.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
      Do you see the obvious contradictions in your statements. You are against patents because inventors stop you from building things, but on the other hand they are very easy to get around. Which is it?
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      • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
        I am talking about the practical nature of the patent process in this country. The process as practiced here actually is destructive to the patent process, as it inhibits investing in innovation. You may think you are free to make your invention that you thought of completely on your own, only to find out later that someone else has patented or in the secret process of patenting it. Once you can see an issued patent, then the race is on to get around it, which I say generally isnt hard. Look at Edison, he got lots of patents but it was AC power that essentially made his DC system obsolete anyway. I cant reconcile the idea that only the FIRST person to think of something should be the ONLY one to have his intellectual property rights protected. What can you offer to settle this contradiction that I am missing?
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 1 month ago
    It must be acknowledged that, of the countless wonderous inventions which we all enjoy and take for granted today, many were inspired predominantly by the financial incentive which patenting can offer. The patent system gave a win-win - time-limited monopoly, open for financial exploitation by the inventor, in exchange for the inventor relinquishing the creation into the public domain after the expiry period.

    I do have a question, however. To what level of triviality should patent protection be available? Should a chef be able to patent a new way of cutting carrots, then be able to sue any other restaurant whose chefs have independently devised the same method? Should a retailer be able to patent a business concept of a "limited satisfaction guarantee, refunding 80% of the purchase price if the item is returned in as-new condition within 30 days"?

    This, to me, is where the real debate lies - the level of triviality permitted, and the likelihood of numerous others creating the same invention independently simply by doing their jobs.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      Patents are not monopolies. Having a patent does not even give you the right to practice your invention. Monopolies are about industries. Having patents in an industry does not mean others can 't compete in that industry. Your examples are vague. One would have to look at the individual patent applications to determine patentability. It takes hours to look at each case. The prosecution process takes years. Most patents have to be vigorously defended against examiner 's arguments. Your statement comes off as though no one even looks at these and rubberstamps patents. Nothing could be further from the truth. And yes a b
      Novel way to slice carrots could save a company millions by maximizing product output and cutting costs
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 1 month ago
      I thought that prior use, particularly widespread use, could be used to defend against a patent. For example, Company A makes a product with technology X via a trade secret. Later Company B later patents technology X. Although Company B has a patent, Company A can defend against infringement if they have already sold products with Technology X.
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      • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
        Courts are really useless when it comes to patents. It costs so much to educate the judges/juries to come up with a reasonable judgment that whether you win or lose isnt really important. You have spend so much to litigate, it would have been better to just innovate again.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
        You have a number of overlapping points there. Let me try to take them one at a time.

        1) Any prior public use (sale in US) by another of the technology makes it unpatentable to a patent applicant. A patent applicant has to define (the claims) a novel invention. So in your example above Company A would have the patent invalidated.

        2) If the inventor, A, decides to keep their invention a trade secret and a company B comes along and applies for a patent. Before the AIA (2013) A could be found to infringe a patent that issued to B. Under the present law things are bit more complicated, but roughly if A made substantial preparation to commercialize (prior use) a product incorporating the invention, he will have a limited right to practice the invention.
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      • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 1 month ago
        In the end, it largely depends on who has the larger legal budget.

        The article gets it wrong from the start by claiming that inventors themselves are labelled as "patent trolls", where the term much more often refers to non-inventing patent hoarding corporations such as Intellectual Ventures Inc whose business model contains zero invention and huge amounts of actively searching for (potentially) infringing behaviours.

        Intellectual Ventures is notorious for litigating against companies who are using technology which could even vaguely be perceived as infringing. The process involves a cease and desist letter with threats, offering option to settle by paying a license fee. The license fee is carefully calculated to be significantly less than the legal cost the defending company would have to pay to defeat the infringement allegation in court.

        The victim company just thinks: "It's cheaper to pay up than to fight for justice". They open their wallet and the problem goes away. Sadly, by this means, it's possible for one company to wheedle out of a whole industry sector a sum of money which is many times larger than the legal cost of defeating their claims.

        THAT - is a patent troll.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
          1. wrong. The author of the article explains it in great detail. Inventors are considered "trolls." I can give you specific examples. Logan, who sued Adam Corolla, the head of Data Treasury. It is a pejorative term used to label anybody who attempts to enforce their rights. It is MOSTLY used against firms that do not manufacture, but it has been used against manufacturers too.
          2. Intellectual Ventures and the value judgment of "notorious." where did this value judgement come from. The article talks at length about this. Did you read it? It was an opportunity to gain insight into how patents work, how licensing companies work, and how small inventors rely on companies like Intellectual Ventures to monetize their inventions so they can keep inventing. Inventing deserves to be a profession.
          3. "The victim company just thinks:" This is also a value judgment. Why is the patent holder the bad guy in this scenario and the infringer (thief) considered a victim?
          4." it's possible for one company to wheedle out of a whole industry sector a sum of money which is many times larger than the legal cost of defeating their claims. " this is exactly what large corporations depend on. For you to see paying a license for what you are stealing as a cartel demanding hush money. Inventors have a right to be paid for their production. You are anti-patent. Protecting intellectual property is an essential part of capitalism and supported by Objectivism as moral. Are you an Austrian or anarcho?
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          • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 1 month ago
            "You are anti-patent"?
            I'm worried for someone who would jump to that conclusion, based on me challenging the validity of *some* kinds of patent. The original aim of patents, as envisioned in the Constitution, is to encourage the sharing of knowledge into the public domain, hence the wording "limited times". This is as opposed to other forms of IP protection such as trade secrets, from which only the producers possessing them, and their customers, benefited.

            "Are you Austrian or anarcho?"
            I'm one of thousands you rely on when you hit the green button on your smartphone to telephone a friend or relative overseas, or send a photo to your child. I'm the one writing the software that navigates a baffling and exhausting minefield of complication and obstacles to ensure your call or message Simply Just Happens. The tap on the screen you take for granted? For me, and the code I write, it represents constant non-trivialities, constant occurrences of things not working as they should, and having to invent ways around them. My customers don't give a damn about the technical obstacles, and to be honest, they shouldn't. But for me, it's a war against time and an uphill climb. And in that environment, I just get my head down, my ass up, and engage my intellect to devise ways around. If I pause at every step of the way to check if a protocol or algorithm or data structure or object model I create steps on someone else's patent, I'd be out of a job. My customers would baulk at the extra charges they're paying to cover the license fees, and move to another provider who doesn't respect patents.
            Look through all the precious Fortune 500 tech firms, and you'll find their engineers doing exactly the same thing.
            If all telephony providers had 100% respect for patents, expect your phone minutes and data charges and handset costs to multiply by 10 or more.

            I defy you to abstain from any use of technology which implicates any kind of IP infringement in its value chains. If you make and honour that commitment, you'll find yourself living a lot more simply. If not, you are contradicting your own principles, and annihilating the validity of your own position.

            Apple, Google, Samsung, Microsoft - other companies, large and small - all infringing, all over the place. But we still enjoy a blistering pace of innovation.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
              the goal of the Constitution is to protect the rights of inventors and authors. The Founder's also correctly believed that this benefit would occur, but that is not the justification. If it was, then copyrights on trashy romance novels or mindless thrillers would be invalid.

              "If I pause at every step of the way to check if a protocol or algorithm or data structure or object model I create steps on someone else's patent, I'd be out of a job. My customers would baulk at the extra charges they're paying to cover the license fees, and move to another provider who doesn't respect patents." this is a canard. Your company does market research. They check title before they break land. There is no objective macro-economic evidence for your point of view. Patent searches require a little time and not much money, people in business understand due diligence. If they purposely avoid it, well...

              " But we still enjoy a blistering pace of innovation. " Once again a bald statement with no empirical evidence. The US on several innovation indices has fallen precipitously over the last decade. The number of new businesses in the US does not keep up with attrition rate. The amount of venture capital in startups gone down significantly over the last decade. The number of companies going public has dropped significantly. Real per capita income is flat to declining. This is all overwhelming evidence that we are not thriving technologically.

              We understand what our software clients need and we protect their inventions. We absolutely care about what happens when we push the green button on a phone. But you have openly admitted that you don't care about others' property rights because you don't have "time."
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              • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 1 month ago
                The factor of interest is not just that I don't have time (and we all know, of course, that time is money), but the fact that not a single software engineer seeking to stay competitive has time either. We take steps to avoid visible infringement of the really obvious high-profile software patents such as JPEG graphic encoding, but for all the thousands of little patents, like simple data structures and algorithms, we just press on with the task at hand and deliver what the customer is asking for.

                My original challenge remains - explain to me that all technology you are using is 100% non-infringing throughout its value chains, then I will respect your arguments. Plausible deniability is no excuse either.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                  I misread your question. My response is this. Is it ok to keep a car I bought even though it was stolen? Is it ok to buy from a pawn shop that you know deals in fenced goods? Your argument boils down to the fact that ignorance absolves you of any responsibility. We do avoid companies who make it their policy to steal. That is not the same as someone making a mistake. If you aren 't willing to provide evidence for your many claims on this post or address the points of the article why continue a discussion?
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                  • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 1 month ago
                    I know you'll want to ad-hom your way out of this, arguing that this is an "anti-patent website" but here is a bursting warehouse of evidence of how software patents actually work against the original spirit of patent law: http://endsoftpatents.org/
                    Note that they do not oppose patents on non-software related inventions, such as anti-lock braking.

                    I'll conclude by saying that we find ourselves in a possibly irreconcilable disagreement. Upton Sinclair's quote comes to mind: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

                    You are married to a patent attorney, so you benefit from patentability of software. I am a software inventor, so I benefit from the non-patentability of software. I do hold to the argument, however, that software patenting is actually undermining America's traditional position as an innovation superpower.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                      sigh. I read the first two paragraphs. There was so much dis-information, no scholarly citing of evidence, just bald assertions. The website's title is "endofpatents" How is that not anti-patent??? You are on an Ayn Rand website. you have provided NO evidence. you have been allowed to propagandize on a post where you did not even read the article. On another post you were for net neutrality. Both are anti-Rand and anti-objectivist.
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                • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
                  David,

                  You are not serious. You never answer any questions and you never provide any facts.

                  The macroeconomic evidence is overwhelming that those countries with the strongest patent systems create most of the new technologies and have the most technology dispersion. The same is true of software.

                  You are nothing but a spamming troll
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                  • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 1 month ago
                    With respectful apologies, I decline to buy into your "all or nothing" view of patents. In general, I strongly support patentability of inventions. However, for reasons presented earlier, I hold that techniques of pure software should not be patentable and that, paradoxically, patentability of software actually stifles innovation. I invite you to find any professional software developer who disagrees with this position.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                      as usual, you feint and dodge. FIND MACRO ECONOMIC EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION. Why is software different from other inventions-provide real evidence based on the true nature of software. We personally know hundreds of software engineers who do support patents and software inventions.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                  david, I will have db address your question, I appreciate questions. However, I have also asked many questions and asked you to provide evidence for your stance. After all, you are the one making bald assertions and I have patiently addressed most of them. The burden of proof resides with you not me.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
      Trivial inventions? By what standard? Start by defining what an invention is.
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      • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 1 month ago
        I'll give this my best initial shot:

        An invention is a mental formulation by a party of:
        (a) a process for manipulation of physical material or objects, and/or
        (b) a physical material or object, which is:
        (i) previously unknown to the party itself, and
        (ii) is expressed in working demonstrable physical form (either directly by the party itself, or by another party or parties directly behalf of the first party), and
        (iii) can be applied to meet needs or desires, or solve problems, for at least one party.

        IANAL - I'm aware that a trained lawyer would find enough holes in this to fly an A380 Airbus through, but that's how I personally relate to 'invention'.

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        • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
          Inventions are defined by the claims, prove that there are numerous patents on so called trivial inventions.

          There is no such thing as a trivial invention. Something either is an invention or it is not and under the Constitution and logic any invention is entitled to property rights - a patent.
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          • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
            Publishing your invention in a patent just educates another inventor on how to get around your design. I do this all the time. There are many ways to skin a cat, as the saying goes. (who skins cats though...)
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  • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
    Unlike physical property (which is inherently monopolized by its use -- two people can't eat the same apple) ideas can be replicated without limit. To assert control of an idea is to assert control of another human's mind, his hands, his materials.

    I own a tree, but you tell me I can't carve it into a shape you've already patented. I've lost the control of my physical property -- intellectual property necessarily infringes real property rights.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
      You don't seem to understand property rights. You are giving the standard Austrian Economics formulation of property rights, which is anti-Natural Rights and anti-American.

      Property Rights are not based on scarcity, they are based on creation. The law is recognizing that metaphysical fact that you are the creator. Your analogy fails as your property rights in your tree are not unlimited either, you cannot carve it into a club and beat other people over the head with it.

      Your and the Austrians' weak excuse for stealing other people's creations is morally reprehensible.

      This is not a site for irrational Austrians it is a site to explore the ideas of Ayn Rand. Here is what she had to say about property rights and patents.

      "What the patent and copyright laws acknowledge is the paramount role of mental effort in the production of material values; "

      "What the patent or copyright protects is not the physical object as such, but the idea which it embodies. By forbidding an unauthorized reproduction of the object, the law declares, in effect, that the physical labor of copying is not the source of the object’s value, that that value is created by the originator of the idea and may not be used without his consent; thus the law establishes the property right of a mind to that which it has brought into existence."

      Patents and Copyrights,”
      Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 130

      Also see "Any material element or resource which, in order to become of use or value to men, requires the application of human knowledge and effort, should be private property—by the right of those who apply the knowledge and effort."

      Note the Austrians' attempt to ignore the inventor created the real value and justify being second handers.
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      • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
        As you quote, Rand admits that a claim of intellectual property infringes the mind, hands and physical property of all other individuals.

        Property as "creation" fails to account for a lot of property -- gifts, for example, in which the receiver had no part in their creation -- yet who disputes the receiver is the proper owner? Or found objects.

        A pioneer finds a lake and an apple tree. He declares the area his property and takes the fish and picks the apples. His property claim is indeed based on monopolization and not on creation. Creation can be a source of property, but it is ultimately monopolization that defines property.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
          "Rand admits that a claim of intellectual property infringes the mind, hands and physical property of all other individuals." This is a purposeful mis-statement of Rand. I see that you are a producer, but I'm not familiar with you on this site. If you are an anarcho, you will find lots of challenges from Gulchers. Rand was against anarchy which is anti-capitalism. As Locke pointed out, in a state of Nature, you spend all your efforts protecting your property.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
          Down vote -1 for purposely misrepresenting what Rand said. Do it again and I will flag your comments.

          Only honest debate is allowed here.
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          • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
            It is implicit in what she said. If intellectual property is to be enforced, it must constrain the mind, hands and physical property of all other individuals.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
              you are not constrained. do what you want, however you may not initiate force. selling someone else's invention is stealing. That's initiating force. You need to start asking questions as you are unknowledgable in the subject. If you mis-state Rand again, I will hide your comments, even though you appear to be a big fan of the movies.
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              • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
                Of course you are constrained. Intellectual property is a claim on all minds, all hands, all physical property everywhere in the world, and barring an escape clause not mentioned by Rand, in perpetuity.

                You say it is the stealing of thoughts, but the flip side is the stealing of the property rights of others.

                Intellectual property and physical property are mutually contradictory. The supremacy of one implies the violation of the other.

                The early advocates of intellectual property saw it as a compromise, strictly for the collective benefit of society. The people would surrender some of their freedom for the benefits of rewarding inventors and writers as an encouragement to produce new works.

                I believe rational people must keep in mind the conflict between intellectual property and real property.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                  1. you have not read the article
                  2. you ignore Rand on the subject
                  3.you emote
                  4. intellectual property is based on the ideas of Locke on property and common law, and our Constitution
                  since you do not promote any of these important philosophical pillars, I am hiding your comments.
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                  • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
                    I will note that I stuck to the issues without resorting to ad hominem or threatening to disappear anyone. The courtesy was obviously not returned. I am disappointed as I thought this would be a place especially suited to intellectual discussion. I will be moving on, and cancelling my membership.
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                    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
                      It is not ad hominem to point out someone's complete lack of knowledge. You ignore what Rand says on the subject, you ignore the Constitution, you did not even read the attached article, you did not provide evidence and logic for your positions, What you did do was emote.
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                      • -1
                        Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
                        You are discussing me, not the issue. That is ad hominem. It is a fallacy of irrelevance. If you are EVER talking about someone and not the issue at hand, you have gone down the path of logical irrelevance. Stick to the issue in the future.
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                        • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
                          It is never an ad hominem to discuss someone's ignorance both on Rand and Patents in this case. An ad hominem means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments.

                          You were given fair warning that you were misrepresenting Rand.
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                        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                          sigh. stated above: 1. you have not read the article or commented on it directly 2. You mis-stated Rand not once but twice even after I warned you. 3. You have made bald claims with no evidence to support your claims. 4. therefore, I must conclude you are pushing an anti-patent agenda. If you want to discuss you should cite your claims with proof, address the article in the post-it's my post I get to control the conversation to the subject if I wish, ask questions once your claims have been refuted with evidence and facts.
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                          • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
                            I mistook your actions for a board level moderator -- which concerned me to the extent that I felt unwelcome here. Since this is not the case I have no desire to get into an extended pissing match. I've said my piece. If you find it of no value you are free to disregard it.
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                            • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                              well I'm a girl, I can hardly get into a pissing match. I simply asked for evidence to back your arguments. I then asked that you not mis-state Rand. This is straightforward. Enjoy the site.
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                    • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 1 month ago
                      I've been informed that "hiding" comments is not necessarily a moderator level action but can be done by the topic originator. In that case I won't be cancelling my membership.
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                      • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
                        you have the right to control your own posts as well. I did give fair warning about mis-stating Rand. There are lots of newbies on this site to Rand and Objectivism. If we mis-state what she said, that can influence people. we have plenty of that "out there." You are free to disagree with Rand all you want. People discuss those issues. People on this board will tell you that I am quite stingy with the tools given to us to moderate our posts. I rarely downpoint or hide comments. so if you want to continue to discuss on this post, answer my challenges to you, because the burden of proof rests with you.
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                • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 1 month ago
                  Your history is nonsense, it is a straightforward application Locke's ideas on property and implemented in US law under the Constitution and common law through Sir William Blackstone.

                  Learn a little about a subject before you spout off such nonsense.
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