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  • Posted by iroseland 12 years, 6 months ago
    a few things.. It is interesting to see the number of folks in the comments section there stepping up to defend McDonalds. I am actually fairly amazed on that one... As for McDonalds employing people under the age of 20. That will really depend on where you are. The thing is that the work is tailor made for people with low skills. So, it would make sense to see lots of people starting out in the workforce there. Of course every time the minimum wage is raised it makes less sense to the owners to hire high turn over employees and so the instead chose to hire older folks who are a bit more skilled and will be there longer. That however does not change the fact that the jobs are tailor made for folks who are less skilled and therefore wont get paid top dollar. So, lefty orgs like to pull out folks who apparently made some pretty horrible choices over the years and now are stuck viewing McDonalds as a career, instead of what it actually is which is a supplemental job designed to give younger folks a way to learn about working in the real world along with some extra spending money, or to have some college cash. In the end are we actually supposed to feel bad for the 40 somethings working on the line there who apparently spent their entire adult life not figuring out how to learn a valuable skill? I remember folks like that back when we were in Highschool, they were the ones who described learning as too hard, and not worth their time, or they just wanted to party.. Well, now its time to pay the bill for not investing in their futures.
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    • Posted by $ 12 years, 6 months ago
      I agree, that is indeed true, the general low paid, unskilled jobs were traditionally filled by kids in school. I did my time in both W T Grants (anyone remember them?) and a high end restaurant. Then I got fired when we engaged in a war in the back with half chickens... the boss looked dimly on flying chicken halves. So I joined the Navy and learned to operate and fix submarine sonars...Its all connected, somehow.
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  • Posted by bassboat 12 years, 6 months ago
    This hot air about McDonalds employees paying for a house, children, and all the rest was written by a person who has never visited McDonald's. How many people in that restaurant are under the age of 20? Most all of them. I can assure you that the manager of a million dollar plus restaurant is not making $7.25 an hour. This is a totally ingenuous article of nothing but union talking points.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 12 years, 6 months ago
      I agree with your assessment. I have a niece that is a night manager at McDonald's and she makes $12.75 plus has OK benefits. She also is not very good at much of anything she does as she is always looking to do the minimum to keep from getting fired, but she has stuck around long enough that they promoted her. I would suspect a competent night manager would make more, and the store manager would make a rather good living.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
        Don't count on that.

        I was kind of ticked off last night, again at work (sorry, khalling, when I get a life, I'll stop talking about Walmart :( ) ...

        A guy I work with, a nice guy from Ethiopia, we'll call him "M", was assigned the task of collecting empty pallets from around the store, and crushing empty cardboard boxes, which included making a bale when the baler was full.

        He came to me to make the bale for him, and as I was busy stocking the pets department, I told him to tell our assistant manager, we'll call her "G", and she would get someone who knew how to make a bale to do it. So the night wears on, and somehow they get a bale made.
        About an hour before quitting time this morning, G comes to me and asks me to take care of the cardboard and pallets and clean up the gm receiving area.
        There's only one cart of cardboard to put in the baler, but the floor is strewn with baling wire; reusable boxes are stacked precariously on a pallet next to the baler and in front of the exit doors. A stack of pallets is blocking the exit doors, with the bale they made behind it, and two more stacks of pallets in front of the trash compactor.

        Okay, so I have the headache of straightening things out, but then I have to put on my coat because it's below freezing outside with 20 mph winds, and I have to pull this tremendously heavy bale on a pallet jack the entire length of the store (outside) to the storage area, as well as the stacks of pallets. We're talking two or three blocks distance.

        I was cussing the whole time; I had to stop 3 times to catch my breath pulling the bale alone, then it got stuck in a pothole right where we store them for pick up.

        When I got back inside, I was told that they usually use the forklift to move them... which I'm not licensed to use (in spite of having owned and operated my own for years, and used those of my previous employer).

        So I was mad, because I kept thinking of Atlas Shrugged and the 20th Century Motor Company. Walmart hires antiques, retards, cripples, the mentally handicapped, and the just plain lazy, and then expect anyone who shows a bit of work ethic, and/or creative intelligence to pick up the slack.

        M makes half again as much as I do, because he's been there 6 years to my almost-2. Yet, because I show a willingness to tackle whatever job I'm given, because I use my reason to solve problems... I get extra work.

        Another example. At my urging, the store got a new propane buffer, superior to the electric ones we'd been using. I was the only one using it, but, one of the things it does is blow dust bunnies out from under the shelves (something the management thinks A Good Thing), requiring a re-sweep afterwards. I was informed by the rest of the floor crew, jointly, that if it kicked out dust bunnies, I would be the one who had to sweep them up. I switched back to using the electric buffers. Why should I make extra work for myself? So the floor's not as shiny; nobody but me seems to care anyway.
        (Last Sunday, an AM asked why we weren't using the propane buffer; I'd been assigned to help stock Dairy that day, while the two new guys were buffing with the electrics. I volunteered to use the propane buffer while one of them stocked... I was told that they didn't have any experience stocking Dairy... neither did I, til they put me there the first time...)

        The funny thing is, other people who were similarly screwed have been trying to warn me about this since I started working there.

        So, I wouldn't count on a given store, even McDonald's, recognizing competence and rewarding it.

        (sometimes I feel like Garrison Keillor...)
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 12 years, 6 months ago
    Everyone at my McDonald's is so amazingly cheerful and keen to go out of the way to help any customer. I don't know how they do it. I hope there's not a dark side behind it. If they wrote a book "Managing the McDonald's Way" I would pre-order it on Amazon. They just give me the appearance of an amazing business.

    Regarding returning gifts to get out of debt, I agree with the advice.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 12 years, 6 months ago
      Why not return gifts? Also why buy them if you are in heavy debt? Give friends a card, thank for being a friend and let them know your paying down some debt so you could not buy gifts for everyone this year. You expect to do this for 3 more years, so pleas just get me a card....

      The gift buying and giving is out of control in our society. Borrowing money to buy gifts is just insane and like unto what the government does every month.
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  • Posted by k00l 12 years, 6 months ago
    How can I make this short when it has a fairly long history. Unfortunately, Reagan had agreed with Ted Kennedy to allow more (and mostly) poor and indigent immigrants. This singular action gave the liberals a very large poor base in the future (meaning now.) That coupled with the "turning a blind eye" towards illegal immigration, bloated the poor class.
    Competition for jobs at minimum wage skyrocketed. That and our spoiling our children made way for situation we now have at McD's, WalMart, and others. Many employers would prefer hiring someone who is reliable and showing up for work everyday over a high school kid who has a hot date, prom, party, etc and calls in sick. Now these immigrants are adults, perhaps with or starting a family, are brainwashed by the liberals and the liberal media that they have a constitutional right to higher wages, free medical, free food, etc. regardless of their station in society. They have been propagandized into believing that these fundamental rights, regardless of whether you are here legally or not. Mouch has been hard at work for many years in this once great country.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You may have no problem with Ethanol, but you do have a problem with Oil. That is inconsistent and means you have specific reasons why one subsidy is bad but another is ok. Not a valid evaluation. I do not believe in subsidies for anyone either, the market should be able to show which is valid, without them. Subsidies are just politicians using our money for their own ends. But you need to either stick to one position or another, no waffles allowed.
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    • Posted by k00l 12 years, 6 months ago
      Interesting, I agree, no subsidies.But a subsidy is when the government gives tax payers money, a la Solyndra. By the government allowing a company or industry "tax avoidance" is not a subsidy. It is allowing a company, or an individual for that matter, to keep money that they have legally made. But then again, I don't believe in the corporate tax structure (nor the individual tax either.) Neither of them are fair and/or just.
      The fourteenth amendment states in part; "...deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." When the law allows for different treatment of one from another for any reason, whether it is income, gender, race, religion, etc., it is wrong. Taxing anyone at a different rate because of income is unconstitutional.
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
      Please quit making stuff up.

      I have no problems with using Ethanol.

      I am opposed to subsidies for both the oil and alcohol industries.

      Please get your facts straight.
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      • Posted by $ 12 years, 6 months ago
        You said:

        Posted by Boborobdos 3 hours, 1 minute ago
        I'm opposed to both subsidies. The market should decide.

        The point is subsidies haven't been addressed. Why are you making an attempt to change from them to ethanol. I have no problems with ethanol.

        This discussion has evolved to an open debate on what government should or should not do, as well as the impact of business and how it treats workers, and what it's responsibilities may or may not be. You seem bent on being aggressive in your opinions, and I do not think it is relevant that you seem OK with one form of govt control (ethanol) over another (oil subsidy's), then you say you are against both. If you are against them, then you must agree that your position is that govt control, regulations, subsidies and minimum wage are all wrong. That's all, it is part of the subject.
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  • Posted by Stormi 12 years, 6 months ago
    Our McD's has mostly under 25 year old employees, with a few seniors doing the maintenance, and 50-somethings working a second job, earning money to send their kids to college. The managers are very young, and vary greatly in competency. Some just want to be pals, while some actually seem to have a knack for directing work. One thing is obvious, training, as it once was with employees..
    The company has to deal with employees often unprepared for these jobs, (yet paid more than college educated reporters at a local newspaper) with many lacking in math skills. They have made it easy, with picture buttons on registers. However, counting out change is an issue about 80% of the time. At night, when it is all young people, it is chaos, as they do not understand they are responsible for making a restaurant run smoothly. School taught entitlement, not responsibility. What is it with nobody wanting to grow up and emulate adults anymore?
    What do you want, McD's is a business, not a babysitting service for young people.When I took my first job at 16, it was because my Dad said if I wanted to drive my car, I had to have a job to pay the insurance. I did not see the workplace as a playground, but a business, like my father ran. He would not hire me for that reason. He felt I had to make it for real, based on what I did. No, these was NO whining permitted in his world. Singing was fine. My boss just wanted the cash to balance and the reports presented on time, and that was for little pay and no benefits.
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
      Stormi asks: "What is it with nobody wanting to grow up and emulate adults anymore?"

      That's an easy answer. So many kids see adult extremists shouting at each other on TV, who would want to be one of them?
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      • Posted by Stormi 12 years, 6 months ago
        Boborobdos, you are so right! I was thinking, real life, but Hollywood is where kids reside n their heads.I first noticed it with the Black sitcoms of the 80s, where they did not go for respect, rather to look goofy and incompetent. "Why", I asked myself, after attaining equality - this is all they want? Then it spread to the endless sitcoms we now have, where the adults of all races are absurd idiots. Not funny even.
        Perhaps kids think TV is real, just can't draw that distinction between it and real life. Perhaps too many texts and too few conversations with grandparents are too blame. Perhaps, schools systems turning kids away from parents and toward the state and entertainment diversion.
        There are adults worth emulating, like Thomas Sowell, or Charles Krauthammer, or many Veterans - but it is harder to find, I admit. Still, it is no excuses as I see it, the end decision is with the young adult - emulate a Cher or some other Peter Pan adult, or look to those with Objectivist values. Maybe we should institute a "give a student an Ayn Rand book" and hope some of it sticks.
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        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
          From Stormi: "Perhaps too many texts"

          There is something I can comment about for sure. Too many texts have to meet the approval of the right wing in places like Texas where they have human beings riding dinosaurs, literally.

          We need to get honest nuts and bolts back into education, including age appropriate sex information (used to be called "health" classes).

          Kids shouldn't be taught to be hateful just because some preacher thinks something "sinful."

          Kids need to be taught how to balance a check book, change a tire, hire a lawyer for a house settlement, and just how much does that loan on the car cost them.
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          • Posted by Stormi 12 years, 6 months ago
            Boborobdos,
            Wow, you are on two sides of the fence. Actually, I went to school in Texas for a while, and N.M., Wyo. and N.D. as well as Ohio. Out West I did get sex education, in the 1950s in health class, presented in a scientific manner, with no judgement calls or other influence. Years later, in Ohio, our daughter got liberal values clarification garbage in the name of health, as well as how to shop for the cheapest abortion, all at tax payer expense.
            You are right on target when you say kids need to learn about personal finance and the stuff one needs to know to be self-sufficient in life, instead of a patsy. When our daughter did her undergrad studies, the banks set up shop on campus to give them all credit cards, no parental permission, they were 18! Well, a few months later, kids had spent and spent, and my daughter said many of them did not even know there was interest if they did not pay off the balance! These are the ones who made it to college.I had a girl at McD's drive thru literally freeze, like a deer in the headlights. I gave her exact change and five dollars for an order. An older employee had to pull her arm in, hand me back the dollar change. while the apx. 18 year old still looked dazed. My first job I had to make change for hours, no cash register to tell me how much. Our schools are failing both the students and their future employees.
            Also, I have seen some of the items in those texts to which Texas objects, and they do not belong in academic books. Boys should not be feminized, other pseudo-religious should not be pushed, and Gaia worship does not belong in the classroom. It is bad enough they celebrate Earth Day, which just so happens to fall on Vladamir Lenin's birthday - but then Gorbachev was instrumental in getting this stuff in US schools.
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            • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
              Once at the grocery store I pulled out my card and had cash in my other hand. I asked: "Paper or plastic?" She nearly cried and called her supervisor.
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  • Posted by $ 12 years, 6 months ago
    Me thinks I have opened a can of McWorms here....spirited debate. I just thought the idea of a company basically giving tips to workers on how to live cheaply seemed a little bizarre. Do they give tips on how to live richly to the executives? It just seemed a bit arrogant on their part, kinda like throwing breadcrumbs to the poor or the famous "let them eat cake". It seems in any society there will always be a downtrodden class, and there is just no workable method to ensure that everyone gets treated with the respect deserved person to person. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, whether your a Republican, Democrat Or Mcdonalds executive. There is no way to legislate fairness, but if everyone felt it was really that bad, you would need financial pressure of a boycott specifically aimed at changing their policy and acceptance of the $2 value menu as the price. Getting enough people to get on board with that would be problematical as seen by this discussion. I worked in a bakery when I was 14-16 for 3.50 an hour, but did not have a family to support. That was 40 years ago, I do not know how someone can live on 8.00 or even 10.00 an hour which is why I took education and experience wherever I could get it and make a lot more now. But it did not come without a long time (20 years in the Navy, 3 kids, wife and never more than 35K/yr) of working up to it.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
      Nobody "gets" the "Let them eat cake" thing.

      Madame Pompadour was told that the people have no bread; to which she replied, "If they have no bread, then let them eat cake".
      This was a *politicial* comment, not a business one. It was "I'm rich, screw them".
      It was, "The economy is doing fine, we're pulling out of the Bush recession".

      It's funny, since Marie Antoinette before she was butchered had been trying to help the very people who murdered her, and history has branded her unjustly as callously indifferent.

      It's not easy living on 8.00 an hour; the problem is the minimum wage that makes 8.00/hour the equivalent of 3.50/hour.
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      • Posted by $ 12 years, 6 months ago
        I'm not sure of the connection of Minimum wage to current value. I don't disagree on your estimate, it may in fact be less. I am more inclined to believe it is the fact we have a fiat currency that is worthless to begin with. If a stock is worth 10.00 and is selling at 100.00, that dollar is now "worth" 10 cents. The inflation caused by the manipulation of the currency, the 24x7 printing by the current government, the speculation by all the market manipulators, gives you an unrealistic value. Part of the pay problem is that there are more siphons on the economy (money diverted to get people rich, such as stocks, "oil speculation" and such) that there is never any stabilization. Technology has made that almost a runaway reaction, stock markets have imploded when runaway trading outstrips capabilities. That, I think, was AR's dedication to the Gold standard, and it's central place in her story.
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  • Posted by LESTROY 12 years, 6 months ago
    Any job that employs and serves people is a great opportunity to learn several critical things: How to excel at your work; How to interact with fellow employees while holding to your own standards; How to look at any stepping stone job as an opportunity to learn; What employers want for potential supervisors; I could go on. The nice thing about McDonalds is that if your boss is a jerk you can go to work for another one or a Wendy's.
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
      Here's a Krok... She donated over $200 million to NPR from McDonald's.

      Not only are the employees not getting paid well, but they are giving the money to that left wing NPR organization.

      Shouldn't the right consider that really sad?
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
        The price of doing business in the age of Wesley Mouch.
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        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
          Actually, might that money be better spent so workers don't have to get food stamps, etc?
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
            Tell me again why McDonald's concern is whether the workers "have" to get food stamps?
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            • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 6 months ago
              For the same reason you are.
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              • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                Food stamps and other benefits are out of my pocket as a taxpayer. I don't want to subsidize the workers for any company.
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                • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                  You're not.

                  If McDonald's doesn't pay enough... don't work there. Then their subsistence will be entirely upon the gov't and thereby your tax dollars. Such is the price of legislation and regulation.
                  It is not McDonald's fault that they can collect food stamps on your tax dollars, but yours. If there were no food stamps program, your tax dollars would not be spent on it, and would be available for other foolish and wasteful expenditures. Don't make McDonald's the villain of your conscience.

                  Orrr they can find a higher paying job. If they can't, again, thank government.


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                  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                    Guess that's what you would say to the women and kids who worked in sweat shops a hundred years ago.
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                    • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                      No, I wasn't alive a hundred years ago.

                      If I had been, I would have told them about the evil government flooding the country with immigrants to keep the labor pool plentiful so employers didn't have to offer decent working conditions or much pay, because labor was so plentiful and therefore cheaply had.

                      Half the employees I encounter at McDonald's, btw, can't speak English. The other half are Hispanic.
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                      • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                        Ain't no accounting for bigotry. Oh well.
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                        • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                          Bigotry? You're willing to damn a company because it will not pay more for labor than the value of that labor; yet you're unwilling to damn a government that used its power to supply businesses with a surplus labor pool and thereby provide the very sweatshops you condemn... a hundred years ago.
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                          • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                            Who determines the value of the labor? The company or the people supplying the labor?

                            I sure you agree that the business can set the price of their product. Why can't a laborer set the price of his labors?
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                            • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                              The one *buying* the labor is the one who determines its value to him.

                              The laborer can set the price of his labors... and if the demanded price exceeds the value of the work to the employer, the employer should be able to hire someone else, instead.
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  • Posted by DaveM49 12 years, 6 months ago
    Or they could simply ask for money.
    @Rozar, I hear you. If you have a minimum wage job and own a $300 pair of headphones while complaining about debt or that you can't afford to eat (the latter especially if you work for a restaurant), something is very wrong.

    The $300 pair of headphones--that was one of my then-14 year old nephew's Christmas gifts two years ago. His parents asked me to come with them to buy them as I have a background with audio and they hoped I could give an impression based on listening to different models (surely, a good idea). The best sets I heard were $150 and $50 respectively, but no....he had to have the $300 set because of the brand name.
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
      Where did the head phones come from? Are you working to convince us that simply because someone is poor they are automatically irresponsible in your eyes?
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      • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
        poverty often results from irresponsibility.
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        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
          It more often results from oppression.
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          • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
            Where it results from oppression, the oppression almost always is government-induced.
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            • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
              Does the government decide what to pay McDonald's employees? Ohhhhh, minimum wage oppresses! If the employees make less they will be more free!

              And what management, holy, or even motivational book agrees with that?
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              • Posted by XenokRoy 12 years, 6 months ago
                Lets say McDonald has 3 great workers on a shift and 3 not so great workers. Remove minimum wage and the 3 not so great workers would likely get about 4.50 to 5 an hour. The three great workers would get 10. Put minimum wage in and they all get the same. Without minimum wage limits then the employers must pay better to those whom they want to keep and see as valuable, with minimum wage they need not do it because no one can afford to do it. This means that doing a great job or a mediocre one makes no difference and many that could do great work will not do so.

                So yes minimum wage causes oppression in several forms. First it steals from the good workers to give to the bad ones. Second it eliminates reward for extra effort which causes the third, the demoralization of the good worker into being just another average worker.
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                • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                  ROFL... Just get rid of the bad employees. It's no where near as hard as some screech about.

                  BTW YOUR suggestion would prove to be way too expensive for McDonald's. Those who excel move up the restaurant food chain to different organizations like Dennie's, Friendlie's, etc. So, McDonald's is stuck with marginal employees and has to train new ones.

                  It just doesn't work that way. If McDonald's wants to keep someone they figure out a way to pay them.
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                  • Posted by XenokRoy 12 years, 6 months ago
                    Minimum wage has costs and you bring up another one indirectly. Remove minimum wages and McDonald's would likely turn it into what it should be without minimum wage. A job for kids that do not need a a "living wage" but do need some money to play on and a chance to learn to work. Those that do would move on to other restaurant chains that pay better, those that do not would still be at McDonald's while in college or move on to other menial jobs that require little to no thought that others do not want to do, will refuse to do so they pay better because of the laws of supply and demand.
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                  • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                    Assuming that the "bad employees" don't fall into one of the plethora of "minorities" so they can sue for being fired.

                    Assuming that you can find someone who will be enough better to be worth the added expense and paperwork (thank you IRS).
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              • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                I have no idea about books, I only know what I've experienced.

                In 1974, I made 25 cents an hour handing brick to my father and being "gopher", on holidays and weekends. The minimum wage was under $3/hour.
                Every time the minimum wage has been raised since then, prices have risen accordingly.

                If businesses still charged what they charged in 1974, yet paid the modern minimum wage, they would take a loss on every transaction. How long could they stay in business?

                The economy adjusts; always. Today McDonald's has a dollar menu. If McDonald's had only a dollar menu when it first started, they would have gone out of business because nobody would have paid a freaking dollar for a hamburger. As the minimum wage has increased, not only has what McDonald's had to pay their employees increased, but their suppliers have also had to pay *their* employees more, as well. McDonald's costs go up, their prices go up to compensate, as does everyone else's. Then, the minimum wage is suddenly insufficient, to the left. So they have it raised to $3.25... then $4... then $5... constantly adjusting it upward as each new minimum wage drives prices up.

                You keep caring what the employees *feel*. Nobody cares what they feel. Feelings don't feed you: work does. Someone to flip burgers is only worth so much value to McDonald's. Not emotional value, but mathematical value. McDonald's is competing with other fast food chains... and restaurants... and home cooking. They can only make their food taste so good. The rest of their enticement for customers has to come from quality of service, speed of service, and price. It's costing them for utilities, it's costing for maintenance, it's costing for taxes and it's costing them per hour per employee. The only way for them to make money is to shove food out the door as quickly and proficiently as possible. The more they pay to have that done, the more has to be done in less time in order to cover expenses. They can only shove food out the door so fast.
                Forgetting the money the shareholders demand, the massive taxes they have to pay, the expenses of keeping the doors open, those "huge" profits also go into insurance, into legal fees, into war chests to pay for future lawsuit payoffs for idiots pouring coffee on their crotch, for natural disasters, for man-made disasters, for expansion...
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                • Posted by XenokRoy 12 years, 6 months ago
                  This is by design. Devaluation of the dollars buying power by artificially increases wages and which causes a devaluation of debt. One of the things you must do to manage debt as a nation is decrease the value of the currency after you have a large increase in borrowing. One of several tools to accomplish this is minimum wage.
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                • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                  Claimed: "Every time the minimum wage has been raised since then, prices have risen accordingly."

                  Why does the term diaper load come to mind? Here is a history of minimum wage: http://www.thedigeratilife.com/blog/fede...

                  Now, explain why prices have in some cases grown almost exponentially while both minimum wage hasn't gone up much and unionization in general is down.

                  Looks to me like you got it exactly backwards.
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                  • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                    No, I haven't. If you look at what you can buy today with the current yearly wage with what you could buy in the past on that wage... it about balances out.

                    $7.25 an hour is an exponential increase from 40 cents an hour...

                    As I said, when you raise the minimum wage, every employer has to raise prices. That means not only does your Big Mac go up... so does the price of producing the two all beef patties, the special sauce, the lettuce, the cheese, ,and the sesame seed bun. The producers of the trays and cardboard containers labor costs go up, the companies who make the cleaning products for the grills, the companies who make the grills, the companies who make the containers for the cleaning products for the grills. Each passes the added expense on to his customers, who pass it on down to the retail customer... you.

                    When the minimum wage was 40 cents, a cheeseburger cost a dime. Now that it's $7.25, the dollar menu sells one for a buck; 25% of the hourly wage vs 13%. And the dollar menu burger has two patties.


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                    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                      And the price of gasoline has gone from a quarter to almost $5 in some places.
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                      • Posted by $ 12 years, 6 months ago
                        Please, don't get me started on the price of gas. The whole gas thing is a classic example of manipulation by all parties. Traders, companies, brokers and countries. There is more oil in the US now than ever yet gas prices remain above 3.00, because we now export it. The discussion above also leave out the impact of stock on the equation, in the last 10-15 years the price of stock has moved front and center to the discussion of "cost cutting". Companies will do anything to cut costs to get the stock price up so the management and board paid in stock can get the "most". While wages play a part in costs for employees, other things factor in as well, such as health care (remember Obama Care?) and taxes. Each employee represents a load on a company that is much larger than just their wages. I bet we could trade Obama Care for a 2.00 an hour increase in min wage and still not see one drop of inflation.
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                        And the oil industry has been under relentless assault for at least 40 years, much like the tobacco industry, where the price has gone beyond imagining.
                        And even w/o the assault, the oil industry now has to produce a vast array of different fuel types to satisfy the environmental and other regulations (remember leaded gasoline?).
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                        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                          Assaults? What about the oil subsidies?
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                          • Posted by $ 12 years, 6 months ago
                            What about "ethanol"? One of the greatest boondoogles hoisted on America since...I don't know. It has caused the price of corn to skyrocket, and is a pain in the ass to work with. Government does not belong in chemistry. But then, there is a level of self protective behavior on most companies part, where they do things despite knowing the damage they cause. Part of the discussion needs to address the fact that just like people, companies are irresponsible as well. Thats what opens the door for the gov't clowns to wedge themselves in.
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                            • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                              I was asking about oil subsidies. Can't justify them... Looks like you are trying to change the subject.

                              BTW, my Vibe (actually a Toyota) is running just fine with almost a quarter of a million miles on it. If there is damage from ethanol (10% of the fuel it drinks) it hasn't shown up yet.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
      lol that issue is an old, old one. That Apple logo is awful expensive, for example.

      Back in the late 80s/early 90s, in order to sell the same exact software package for Mac that had been also developed for MSDOS and/or Amiga, one had to raise the price, or Mac users wouldn't buy it.
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      • Posted by DaveM49 12 years, 6 months ago
        Indeed. And I should point out that my nephew's parents can easily afford to buy their son a $300 pair of headphones. On the other hand, they gave him a budget, which the headphones exceeded considerably. He went to my mother and asked for more money, and she bought him the headphones. All voluntary, to be sure, but I have to wonder about the premises and values involved here.
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 6 months ago
    It was nice of them. Literally. Their trying to tell all these morons that if you can't survive then yeah, you're going to have to sell those headphones for money to eat. It's common sense. I've done very similar things in the close past.
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
      Why do you consider poor people "morons?"

      But then, I'll bet a bunch of them think the top 1% are thieves.
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      • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 6 months ago
        Haha I don't equate poor people with morons, I was more referring to the ones who think it abhorrent to sell sentimental possessions to retain survival.

        Also I'm very liberal with my application of the word moron, I don't mean it as an insult to intelligence but more of a way of referring to someone who has made a logical mistake.

        I should find another word as I've noticed people seem to be very sensitive to being referred to as a moron lol.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
          A moron has an IQ of 60. An idiot has an IQ of 45. No one has measured the IQ of a progressive; the scale doesn't support negative numbers.
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        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
          Ah, so you would call a Mensan a "moron" if they did something you thought wasn't up to snuff with how you think they should run their lives?
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          • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 6 months ago
            It doesn't matter if I agree with them or not, it depends on if their logic has a glaring error.

            Make no mistake if I was wrong I would call myself a moron. But then I would correct myself. No one has all the answers, and if a Mensan makes a mistake I'm not going to assume it's correct because he is more intelligent.

            I don't see why you're so hung up on this one word. Out of anything on this one website you're trying to understand why I use the word moron?
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            • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
              When you apply it as a blanket to the poor I can't help but wonder.

              I doubt that the stereotype being painted here of the $300 headphones and expensive sneakers is true for most who work at McDonald's.

              Historically Americans have stepped in when abuses occur in sweat shops, for example. Today McDonald's, Walmart, and much of the related industries are abusing their workers with low wages and teaching them how to rip off the welfare system. IOW, I don't want to subsidize private corporations.
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                Don't know a lot of McDonald's workers, do you?

                Historically, when abuses occurred in sweatshops, the workers took a hand in redressing the issue, before the government could even evaluate which side of their bread was buttered.

                I do not make "low wages". I have been given NO instructions on how to milk the welfare system by Walmart, nor has anyone I know who works there.

                I'm curious how one abuses workers with low wages. A worker's effort is worth a certain amount to Walmart. No business can pay its employees more than the value of their industry, not if it wants to survive. Wages are artificially inflated by the abomination known as "minimum wage".

                What abuses low-wage workers is do-gooders and their feel-good, vote-mongering "minimum wage", and its related monetary inflation.

                Tell me, do you abuse Walmart with low prices by buying the $288 TV for $98 on Black Friday? Do you ever abuse Walmart with low prices by buying the cheapest version of an item they have there? Don't you ever offer to pay Walmart *more* than the price they ask for an item? Don't you ever offer to pay Walmart *more* for an item, just so some bleeding heart somewhere doesn't feel you're abusing them by not giving them more money than their product is worth to you?

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                • -1
                  Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                  Walmart makes tons of money. I have no sympathy for the family that owns it.

                  For the workers... When they get fed up enough they will unionize. As a group they will have the strength to negotiate a far better deal than individuals.

                  As far as the cheap TV goes I'm sure Walmart will still make money on their marketing efforts. Just not as much after expenses.
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                  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                    And for ALL my criticism of Walmart, I still feel toward them as Tess Carlisle's secretary Kimberly Cannon felt about her in, "Guarding Tess".
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPAmy4XO_....
                    When Mrs Carlisle was kidnapped, Kimberly ran up to agent Chesnic and said, "She hired me"... "I know, Kimberly"... she touches him again... "...when others wouldn't".

                    You and your kind took my self-respect along with my balls, with your do-goodery. I *chose* to draw unemployment, so I'm the one to blame. But Walmart gave me my balls back. It's because they would hire me when others wouldn't that I now have enough self-respect to recognize that I require better employment where my industry and creativity can be applied to my own benefit.

                    You people only care about how YOU feel, not how your victims feel. "Oh, I feel *terrible* that these people aren't rich and riding around in limos." Solution; *give* them money so YOU feel good, regardless of what it does to their character and self-respect.

                    People who care about themselves hand out welfare. It's like you don't get freedom at all.
                    Freedom isn't safe, or secure, or prosperous. It's a road to safety and prosperity, but you have to drive it yourself.
                    . Because freedom means YOU take responsibility for YOUR life, you don't pawn it off on your government, your community or your employer.

                    Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty, or give me death!", not "Give me liberty, or give me guaranteed health insurance at a price I can afford". He didn't say, "Give me liberty, or give me a job where I make twice what my labor is worth to my employer."

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                  • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                    What about the stockholders... which includes a buttload of employees?

                    Any union organizer gets near the Walmart where I work, I go to jail, but he goes to hell. Union organizers do well to stay the hell away from me.

                    If they succeed in unionizing Walmart, Walmart will decay and go out of business just like GM, and short of a government bailout, there will be massive unemployment as a result.

                    The cheap tv is not about Walmart; it's about you. Walmart is a consumer of unskilled and semi-skilled labor, just as you are a consumer of electronic devices such as TVs. (I notice you didn't address the questions about giving them more money than the asking price).

                    As far as the cheap labor goes, I'm sure the employees will still make money on their labor efforts. Just not as much after expenses.

                    It's up to Walmart to decide what their profit margin should be, not we employees, not union thugs. If we don't like it, we can quit and go work elsewhere... or start our own "big box" store... or start our own line of "Dollar Stores", which are booming.
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                    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                      From Hiraghm: "just like GM,"

                      Actually Ford did OK with its unions and all that stuff through the recent troubled times. I like to attribute to Ford marketing to all Americans and not catering to the right wing, but that's only my opinion.
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                        Your flawed opinion. It's attributed to Ford making a quality product and not catering to its unions.
                        Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, and a host of other car companies did just fine, also.
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                  • Posted by Rocky_Road 12 years, 6 months ago
                    "The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics report on 2012 union membership shows that union membership deceased marginally from 2010 to 2011, from 11.8% in 2010 to 11.1% in 2012. There is a long-term downward trend since 1983, when union membership stood at 20.1% of all wage and salary workers (See Figure 1)."

                    http://www.ilo.org/washington/ilo-and-th...

                    You are on the wrong side of history, and the wrong side of our labor trends.

                    Without the Democrat Party, there would be virtually no unions remaining.
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                    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                      Wrong Rocky...

                      Without corporate abuses there would be no unions. Walmart, McDonald's, etc. have abused enough folks that unions are seriously considered as a weapon against corporate abuses.
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                        Wrong, Bobo... It's not Walmart and Mcdonald's who created the unions; labor unions existed long before either entity existed. In fact, labor guilds were formed in the dark ages to protect skilled craftsmen from criminals, and to ensure employers and clients had competent craftsmen.

                        I do not oppose the idea of collective bargaining if that's what the employees at a given employment site wish. But, it does not benefit the skilled and able employees; it benefits the lazy, the incompetent at the expense of the skilled and able. The skilled and able can command the highest wage and best benefits the market will allow, due to their value to their employers. The least skilled and abled only have their cheap price to offer. The only way they can get the unearned is to ride the coattails of the skilled and able. This is why good workers shun unions.
                        When one looks at Walmart with regard to unionization, the unions have virtually nothing to offer:

                        John Galt: "What on Earth do I need *you* for? What have you got to offer me that I couldn't get without you?"

                        Walmart pays even the least skilled and least abled employees above your precious minimum wage; for full-time employees, they provide healthcare benefits, profit sharing, counseling for finances, smoking, or other issues an employee may have. An employee is encouraged to go to higher management if they have a problem with lower management. After 90 days, they're eligible for a performance bonus; after a year they get the benefits package, a certain number of hours of paid vacation, certain number of paid days absence, a certain number of hours beyond that for sick leave, which add up week by week, year by year. We even get two fifteen minute breaks per day, ON the clock, a whole HOUR off the clock for lunch...
                        They provide training for their employees; I just finished taking the 1.5 and 2.0 safety training exercises, dealing with chemical spills and equipment malfunctions. I took them during my work hours, as required. The store is kept reasonably air-conditioned, reasonably cleaned. Procedures are in place for emergencies.

                        Just *exactly* what the hell can unions offer that employees can't get already? I keep imagining what Walmart could offer in straight-up pay if they didn't offer some of these benefits, if they didn't have to do some dumb-shit policies to appease the government.
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                        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                          I predict that within the next few years Walmart will increase their workers' pay by a percentage of what the current insurance costs and tell their employees to get Obamacare. It will be cheaper for Walmart and the employees will get better health care.
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                          • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                            There is no connection between paying more for health insurance and getting better quality health CARE.

                            I highly doubt they'll get better health *insurance*, since the offerings of Walmart were pretty much jaw-dropping.

                            I predict in a few years Walmart will increase their workers' average pay, because the federal government will once again mandate an increase in the minimum wage.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 6 months ago
    Why don't people stop acting like their employer owes them more than the pay they agreed on when they got hired....better yet...if it's not enough pay GET A BETTER JOB. McDonald's ain't your Momma!
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    • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 6 months ago
      Lol I think of someone wants to marry McDonald's and ask McDonald's to take care of them that's their choice. Just don't ask the government to force McDonald's.
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      • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
        And McDonald's shouldn't be shucking it's employees off onto the government welfare programs. I don't want to pay their labor costs.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
          This wouldn't be a problem if the government didn't legislate welfare programs.

          You suggest that McDonald's owns the people who work at McDonald's, as if the employees are no longer free; as if McDonald's owes them something beyond the value of their labor to McDonald's.

          McDonald's would be stupid and foolish to pay an employee more than his labor is worth to them. Then again, Walmart does it...
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          • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
            Doesn't matter how much an employee is worth. It just matters how little they can pay them.

            That's why unions ended the sweat shops and got folks a wage they could live on.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
              No, it doesn't matter what an employee is worth; it matters what his *labor* is worth to the employer. Yes, the employer is going to try getting employees as cheaply as he can, just as you are going to try buying the nicest car, tv, house, lay-z-boy you can as cheaply as you can.

              Unions didn't get folks a wage they could live on; they're still screaming about needing a living wage for their membership. Not once did a union ever forgo its dues for the sake of its membership. Unions exist for the benefit of the union officers and organizers, not the members.

              My great-grandfather helped found a union; my grandfather was a life-long union man. My father quit a union when he saw the corruption within it. When he tried contracting for himself, the union came and sabotaged his supplies and equipment, and tried burning him alive. I've never belonged to a union, and I never will.

              The idea of the employees of a given shop in a given *dangerous* profession collectively bargaining is great. Of course, with an endless supply of immigrants, it won't do squat, because your union members will get fired and replaced with new workers... unless the government passes a law protecting your precious thugs, forcing employers to let them screw with his employees, even if they have good working conditions and just pay rates.

              Read the part of Atlas Shrugged about the riot at Rearden's mill. That *is* how unions work.
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              • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                "Unions exist for the benefit of the union officers"

                Sadly you are correct that corruption often manifests itself in taking advantage of others. But to combat corporate abuses can you offer another solution?

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        • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 6 months ago
          Fight the welfare pr ograms not McDonald's
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          • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
            And then where will those folks get food from?
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
              You can buy it for them.
              The problem of your tax dollars buying them food has nothing to do with McDonald's paying their employees a wage appropriate to the employees' contribution. That's a problem of do-gooder legislation.
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              • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                Hiraghm says: "a wage appropriate to the employees' contribution."

                That is negotiable through unions.
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                  No, it's not. Unions will always blackmail more for their employees than the employees contribution merits.

                  And, it gets back to my big gripe at Walmart; I'm a good, industrious, smart employee, yet I make less than incompetents who've been there a long time... as is the case in union shops.
                  The union can and will negotiate an *average* wage for workers, maybe even divided by work-type, but they will not negotiate the most money and benefits for me as an individual. Were it not for government born and influenced policies, I could and should be able to negotiate higher wages, by offering greater value to the company, than others, could or should. But, no, unions shackle thoroughbreds up to mules and think that's "fair" to everyone, when it's only fair to the mules, and not so to the thoroughbreds and employers.

                  This is why Galt created the strike, for crying out loud.
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
      Walmart isn't either. However when management recommends that their employees avail themselves of public programs to subsidize the low wages they get it comes out of my pocket as a taxpayer.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 6 months ago
        Who's the guiltiest one in the room... Walmart or the gov who offers these entitlements off our backs...or US, for allowing the gov to do what they do?
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        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
          Were those who ran sweatshops heroes to you?
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 6 months ago
            What's your beef, Bobo? Do you have a calculator handy? If you double McDonald's prices (or more...to compensate for a ridiculous wage increase)..they'll go out of business. Apparently you don't own a business or understand math....or profit margins..or the reason why people own businesses in the first place...they aren't running charities. If the workers think they're not making enough money then they should move on to a better job. Like the rest of us did once we graduated high school. If the job doesn't pay enough why did they take it in the first place? Employers do not owe anyone a "living"...they owe them a paycheck for hours worked according to their agreement at hiring. McDonald's is NOT a sweat shop so stop trying to super impose the two.
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            • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
              Their prices will NOT go up. They will still be competitive with other fast food places. Only their huge profit margins will go down. McDonald's and other fast food restaurants don't charge on a fixed mark-up. They grab what the traffic will bare. That's a huge dirty little secret of that business and why they make so much money.
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                First, their profit margins are not "huge". Second, they won't be competitive with fast food places that *don't* pay their employees more than they're worth. Third, they're under no obligation to keep employees or stay in business. If they wish to have an 80% profit margin, and the employees unionize and try to force them into a 40% profit margin (which they can't do without government support), then the employer can take his marbles and go home. He can start another business, or go to work for another business. Let's see those employees do the same after pulling that little stunt.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 6 months ago
                What do you hate about a business OWNER making 'so much' money....HE OWNS IT. Without him they wouldn't have a job, since they can't seem to find one any where else.
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                • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                  Really... And you stick up for the sweat shop owners of old?

                  BTW, I don't mind a business owner making a lot of money. But it doesn't have to be at the expense of workers. Ben and Jerry's and Costco are excellent examples of how it can be done.
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 6 months ago
                    "Expense of the workers"... Hmm if it's costing them money to work there they really should move on to a job that pays them not the other way around. This is not rocket science.
                    Is that your tag line for every comment? "sweat shop owners"? Maybe if you say it enough times, Dorothy, it will come true. Business owners have the right to run THEIR business the way THEY see fit... no one HAS to work there.. last time I checked this is still a free Country. Oh...wait. Scratch that.
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                    • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                      From SetsShrug: "Business owners have the right to run THEIR business the way THEY see fit... "

                      Absolutely correct. And laborers can themselves combine. It's just as the rich combine assets they can combine their efforts of labor. Why shouldn't gangs of laborers be able to negotiate with gangs of owners?
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                        No reason. except the business owners aren't protected by law in their organizing.

                        If laborers unionize, people like me will come in and undercut them... unless government prevents it, with closed-shop State type rules and regulations.

                        If unionization works so well for everybody... why are unions on the decline?

                        Like a bigot, you damn the "greed" of businesses, but fail to damn the "greed" of their employees.
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              • Posted by $ minniepuck 12 years, 6 months ago
                charging what the market will bear isn't a secret. its a very widely used business practice in many industries and taught in business schools.

                what do you consider a "huge" profit? what kind of margin do you think is proper for a business to make? why?
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                • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                  Any margin is proper as long as they don't do it with government assistance or sweat shop circumstances.
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                  • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                    Oh boy, now he's gonna demand what "sweat shop circumstances" are. OK, here you go. Any circumstances where folks are treated badly enough to organize to be able to stand up as a group.
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                    • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 6 months ago
                      And here I thought it was children working 47 hours a day.
                      Fast food is NOT sweat shops. Do you work at McDonalds?
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                      • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                        Every time I go to a national fast food establishment I compare the robotic greetings and up sales (fries with that) programed into those folks. Is it work you would want to do for what they are paid?
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                        • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 6 months ago
                          NO! THAT'S WHY I DON'T WORK THERE.
                          I surely hope you tip them a thousand dollars each. So they can pay their employer for letting them work there. Lots of people wouldn't do what I do for what I get paid either...that's neither here nor there. I accepted the wages I earn when I got hired....no one forced me to accept it, that was MY choice. If I can't "live" on it then I need to go else where, or work more, or work two jobs. You do what you have to do to get by...this is not a new concept. LOGIC, my friend.
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                          • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
                            LetsShrug says: "You do what you have to do to get by..."

                            Yes, and that's why there is now a movement to unionize McDonald's, and other fast food employees, into unions. Laborers can combine their skills like infestors combine their money to make money.
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                            • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                              No. There is a movement to unionize McDonald's and other fast food employees because unions are getting desperate for revenue. Because lazy, selfish, greedy low-lifes want the unearned.

                              Laborers can't combine skills. You combine a skilled laborer with an unskilled laborer, you get less productivity than if you kept the skilled laborer alone.

                              And flipping burgers at McDonald's is UNskilled labor...
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                              • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                                If you want burger flippers to make more money, the solution is *not* to form Burger Flippers International #203... the solution is to deregulate with policies that encourage people to go into the fast food business... more business competition without a concomitant increase in the labor pool means that businesses will have to offer better pay, and/or working conditions.
                                As LetsShrug said... it's not rocket science.
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                        • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                          hm... after rereading that, I think about my most recent experiences at McDonald's.
                          I'm always greeted at the drive through with a smile and a small discussion of my day and the employee's day (night, actually, for both of us).
                          When I requested a dollar menu dinner item during the time when they only served breakfast, they made my mcChicken sandwiches (with tomato) special for me.
                          Whenever there was a mixup or delay in my order, I was compensated. Often I've been asked if I wanted a drink, or fries, or something new on the menu with my order, and I had either forgotten part of what I'd gone there for, or decided that, yes, that *was* what I wanted. All asking did was remind me to think about what I wanted.

                          This is good customer service because I was a good, regular customer. If customers unionized, we'd all get the same service, which would quickly become the quality the most pain-in-the-ass, least-friendly customer rated.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
        And I repeat, it comes out of your pocket because your representatives legislated such programs.

        Such is the pricetag of your conscience. But, you make us all share in that price.
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        • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
          Faulty assumption, Hirghm. Not mine.

          See, rather than welfare I much prefer the idea that those low earners who are at that level because of corporate greed organize and market themselves as a group. Then they can have a better position to establish their value.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
            How does grouping together increase their value? Union workers are less productive than non-union, and more expensive.
            They are not low earners because of corporate greed, and wanting more money than their labor is worth is dishonest greed on their part.
            They want a better position to establish their value, get educated. Get experience. Keep their genitals in their pants and not produce kids they can't feed themselves.

            You can't have it both ways; either you subsidize those people with food stamps, or your let them go hungry. Blaming McDonald's, which owes them *nothing*, certainly not employment, does not address the problem.

            Let's say you double their salary. The McDonald's franchise has to increase prices to accommodate the lost productivity; or they can fire half their employees... the most expensive half.

            Meanwhile, Walmart workers, having to pay more for their McDonald's meals, stop eating McDonald's and go to Burger King, or buy food at Walmart's deli, or buy Ramen Noodles or cans of Mini-Ravioli, foods nutritionally no better than that at McDonald's. McDonald's profits go down, more layoffs. Stores start shutting down.

            Congrats, you put the mean old greedy franchisee out of business... and unemployed everyone who worked for him.

            Why is corporate greed so much worse than employee greed? Because the numbers to the left of the decimal point are so much more numerous? Why is it okay for employees to blackmail a company into paying them MORE THAN THE VALUE OF THEIR CONTRIBUTION, but not okay for a company to make more profit than some smarmy academician arbitrarily deems sufficient?
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            • Posted by Boborobdos 12 years, 6 months ago
              The question is: 'How does grouping together increase their value?'

              How does investors working together increase their "value?"

              In fact labor grouped together can help define their value to investors.

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              • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 6 months ago
                Investors are not selling themselves, their skills, or their industry. Investors are gambling.

                An investor is not a laborer. A stork is not a moose.
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