Actually I thought that the USA would collapse as in AS, and be reborn- but I didnt say it would be reborn free. Once it collapses, people would have an opportunity to see what had happened and perhaps make the decision not to repeat it again.

a collapse could result in complete tyranny with a dictator. I would hope that enough people would stand up to that. As to a complete intellectual choice towards freedom and capitalism, I kind of doubt that is going to happen. Most people today are too intellectually conflicted right now to even see even the little good that Trump brought to politics, let alone straight up objectivist thinking.

The best we can hope for in the short term is to see the house and senate swing republican and give a divided US government for at least the next two years. Maybe divided government for longer than that.

"Eventually, the usa will become socialist, given the state of intellectual thought of the majority of people in the USA. "
It really looks that way. Things can change fast, though, either for better or worse. I think there's a broad long-term trend toward liberty. Maybe this is an anomalous blip.

"I think that the way AR characterized the results of statism in AS- wherein the country collapses and then is reborn- is indeed the way its going to go. "
I agree with everything else in your post above, but I categorically disagree with the idea that things getting bad is actually good because it leads to rebirth. I believe we're adapted to see this narrative, maybe as a way to keep going with things look grim. I think that's why flood-myth stories crop up in societies that didn't have contact with one another. I think it's not true. You could have a socialist collapse followed by a long period of extreme socialism. There's no guarantee that collapse paves the way to a better world.

CG: I believe [increasing statism] would unfortunately happen regardless. It's been a constant trend for 100 years.
Nick: Isn't that a problem?
CG: Yes

"Based on what? One phone call leaked by a guy later linked as CIA."
Yes. I accept the paraphrased transcript as capturing the intent of the call.

"Allowed yourselves to be emotionally drive by claims "orange man bad" "
I'm not emotional by nature, but I do think former President Trump was bad for the US and liberty in many ways.

"The Ukraine thing was a manipulation of a phone call that was normal for any president."
I want to de-normalize it.

"let the state apparatus use the Steel Dossier"
The protection against surveillance is a huge problem. The East German government had half of the DDR spying on the other half, but it was impossible to sort through all the information. Now it is possible. This is a huge problem.

"If you agree with that, you belong in Australia, as you would find their current system to your liking."
I think of Australia as like the US: democratic republic, very spread out, isolated by oceans, independent mindset, English speaking but with a distinctive accent.

Divided government is indeed only a way to slow down the current rush to socialism. Eventually, the usa will become socialist, given the state of intellectual thought of the majority of people in the USA. Hopefully, the disastrous results of the socialist policies will slowly take the bloom off the socialist rose.

I think that the way AR characterized the results of statism in AS- wherein the country collapses and then is reborn- is indeed the way its going to go. We have a country that has descended into mob rule, and the mob wants socialist goodies that the workers pay for.

All the workers can do really is to withdraw their work, just like in AS.

"when I do it's mainstream papers of record, nothing with name calling or conspiracy theories"
This explains your entire view of the world. You don't accept reality because reality disagrees with your brainwashing.

" I believe this would unfortunately happen regardless. It's been a constant trend for 100 years." Isn't that a problem? And by a creature who stole an election, let alone the whole Ukraine bribe thing?

CG, you are a series of contradictions " I think Trump definitely tried to make a corrupt deal with Ukraine." Based on what? One phone call leaked by a guy later linked as CIA. "Steel dossier being a lie: It containing lies is not a crime, but how it was funded or used may be. I am not up on it. " That is your problem, as you, and about 30-40% of the country, allowed yourselves to be emotionally drive by claims "orange man bad" to the point you do not look at all the data and do the digging needed.
1.The Ukraine thing was a manipulation of a phone call that was normal for any president. Did you ever seen the video of byden crowing that he blackmailed the resignation of the prosecutor going after Hunter and Burizma for a billion dollars? He was so proud he did it. THAT was a "corrupt deal" and that alone (even without all the China connections and money, and Hunter ties) disqualified him off the bat. The Steel Dossier issue is even more of a problem, since it was "Lets buy a boatload of fantasy, paid for by the other candidate and party, then let the state apparatus use it, even knowing it was false (Sussman indictment) to spy on a opposite party candidate, President elect, and President in office". If you agree with that, you belong in Australia, as you would find their current system to your liking.

Did I support Biden for Present?
Yes.
Do I believe "the Russian Collusion thing"?
Partly. I think less democratic governments want to undermine the idea constitutionally-limited liberal democracy. I don't think they made a corrupt deal with Trump in 2016 because I don't think they thought he was likely to win. They were supporting all candidates critical of US institutions. They just lucked out that Trump won by a fluke and then kept undermining institutions and even the election that he won.
Impeachment #1: I think Trump definitely tried to make a corrupt deal with Ukraine. I don't know if it rises to the level of impechment.
Impeachment #2: I think he definitely incited a mob, but I don't know if it was part of a larger plan. I think it would be good to know.
News sources: I don't follow it that closely, and when I do it's mainstream papers of record, nothing with name calling or conspiracy theories.
Steel dossier being a lie: It containing lies is not a crime, but how it was funded or used may be. I am not up on it.

Divided gov't: I think Republicans will win the Senate and maybe house, and we'll have divided government again. All of this is short-term, though, and doesn't have a long-term benefit for liberty.
Election was ruined: I don't know what this means.
Biden enacting statist programs: I believe this would unfortunately happen regardless. It's been a constant trend for 100 years.
Taking the country down might increase freedom: I categorically disagree. It could very easily make things worse. US is a beacon of personal liberty compared to most societies in human history.
Someone downgrading your posts: It wasn't me. I never do that and wouldn't care about anyone's public approval anyway.

I know what you mean. My own kids have reasons why they prefer to stay put. Of course, one lives in Texas. For myself and hubby, we're ready to head to whatever stateside destination works. If western Washington wasn't such a hotbed of progressive buttheads fueling the Olympia Inslee madness, we'd be on our way back there right now.

Would need a group effort, and a lot of people have specific reasons for their locations (my wife will ot move east of the Cascades due to hating snakes and tornadoes). A laudable idea.

This whole series of posts is the absolute best discussion in the Gulch this week. I laud you all for common sense, for rationality, for humor, for ethically sound points. I agree we need a Gulch, I know it would be extremely difficult to find a Midas Mulligan style Gulch, but is it possible to buy a small house or piece of land in an area off the main traffic areas, in or around some small community? It would be easier to blend in, infrastructure already in place (and ready to adapt in a worst case scenario), and having Gulchers not too far away is a plus. Also easier to see what's coming at us with 360 degrees worth of eyes.

Agreed.

Additional side note on this: Xiden is blocking AMERICAN pipelines and energy production, but simultaneously paved the way for the RUSSIAN pipeline to continue and begged OPEC to increase its production. Energy wise, this serves two Neo Communist goals: 1) cripple the USA productivity in creating domestic wealth, 2) export existing wealth to foreign powers to obtain needed energy.

You made a good point, in that we are under attack on all fronts, using even our own credulity against us. The evil worms have gotten to the point they outright lie and the media then McGurkins it to drivel. Take gas prices: "What are you going to do about oil prices?" they ask, they answer "Well we have several tools in our belt"...uh WTF? Byden destroyed things day 1 with Keystone, and now the canadian pipeline, they took every action they could to restrict energy, and then they drivel about it, fishing for a way to blame Trump. Its so obvious now, you just have to keep track of what has happened to see they are the ultimate satanic liars. Everything about them is destruction and death, thus their shot is verboten. The RINOs are just one more weapon and have been placed their as insurance policy m, or n, or p but they are still doomed to fail. It is not defeatist to NOT play their game, we just have a responsibility to try to get through to the sheeple, who refuse to see.....

No rotten vegetables for you, my man. Your points are really valid and I echo mccannon01 statement, I support Trump, only because the alternative is proven evil, and that evil made every effort to lie, cheat and steal to get rid of him. That tells me they are afraid of him and his agenda, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I have not seen one time he did anything except try to repair the damage done, and allow the deep state RINO plants to out themselves, placing the responsibility on the individual to say "That dude was a traitor". The insane rants about all the "things orange hair man" did have never amounted to anything.

good point, but they sure didnt during the civil war. tthe federal govt decimated the south rather than just let it go on its own

The reason I think they would allow it is that Congress did vote to give up sovereignty over three US territories in the 20th century: Cuba (1936), the Philippines (1950), and the Canal Zone (1999).

No need to duck in my presence, Markus. Although I am a Trump supporter, I'd never throw a rotten veggie at someone criticizing him because he has screwed a few things up, IMHO. I agree with, term2, good post.

This is scary actually. we ARE being led like sheep to the slaughter, which to a large degree we are powerless to avoid. I didnt like Obama, hated Hillary, and wasnt real pleased with Trump giving in a lot to the left. Now biden and crew need to be just eliminated before they ruin the country totally.

wow. that was a great post. in my small off road company we havent worn masks EVER during this so called pandemic. I just refuse to order my 7 employees to wear them when I know they do nothing. I stay away from big crowds, nightclubs, and shows, and pretty much cut back on interactions with visitors to las vegas who probably carry the virus. And I havent gotten covid at all. I go to supermarkets when they arent crowded (like I always did). some common sense, and ignoring fauci seems to work best

"I think, by the end of the decade, things we thought were unthinkable will be afterthoughts." "We are NOT going to stop this." "I realize this is a defeatist point of view." I wrestle with that defeatist point of view often enough. To keep on with the metaphors, parachutes get thrown out along the way to break the fall, but the fall continues. Trump, IMHO, was such a parachute but he got neutralized pretty quick and the recent governor's race in Virginia is a smaller parachute, but it made an impact. Maybe another 'chute can get thrown out in 2022 and even 2024. I'd like to see freedom gain some serious ground along the way, but I'm not holding my breath because even elected Republicans, who are "supposed" to be holding the line against the Neo Communists are caving in on many fronts.

32 feet (9.7536 meters if you’re squirrely) per second per second until we reach terminal velocity. Things are definitely accelerating.
I think, by the end of the decade, things we thought were unthinkable will be afterthoughts.
We are NOT going to stop this. We are a subset of a subset. We do not have access to the levers that program society 24/7/365. Billions of dollars and man hours spent brainwashing 3 complete generations. Only cold hard reality can bring about a true awakening. And then the fight starts. Our best course of action is to limit our exposure to the insanity.
I realize this is a defeatist point of view. But, we should consider this, Ayn didn’t stick around the USSR and try to “Red Pill the Normies”. She recognized reality for what it was. Let’s all marinate on that.

I’m right there with you. I like my current employer. I’m sorry it has to be this way. But, I’m done letting the lies be promulgated even in some small way by the sweat of my brow.
As Solzhenitsyn put it, “ Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. ... But not through me. The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie.”
Going Galt doesn’t even need to be based on a revenge motivation. It’s the simple act of being true to ones own conscious. One’s own perception of reality. Even to reality itself. By simply being REAL you do more damage to the lie than any propaganda you could come up with to “Own the Libs”.
“Rachel Levine” is a non-mensturating individual. If they cannot agree on that simple truth then there can be no agreement on the more complicated truths. And, there can be no good faith negotiations. I’m done arguing with the left. Let them pull the TV off the wall and onto their collective heads. Let their delusional lies be exposed to those with eyes that see.
Those of us that accept that A is A will endure whatever hellscape they bring upon us.

And I would add that it doesn’t have to be the literal 2nd coming of Hitler. Any strongman figure who promises to make the trains run on time and a chicken in every pot. It could even be Trump. (Markus: Ducks from the onslaught of rotten vegetables.) But whoever it turns out to be, we need to recognize them for what they TRULY are.