Does a person have to die to be free?

Posted by edweaver 9 years, 7 months ago to Government
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The “Genie, You’re Free” post brought this question to my mind again so thought I would open it to discussion.
Is death the only way to rid yourself of government? When you break it down to this level, is that right?
I don’t intend this to be a morbid discussion nor am I encouraging people to off themselves because of something that may get stated on this topic. Life is still worth living, at least in my opinion but why is death the only way to get that monkey off your back. Is that really the way life is intended. I don’t think so. How do we ever get government out of our lives? What is the better solution?


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  • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 7 months ago
    One realization that has come to me, far slower than it should have, is that it is not enough to be against statism and government, one has to be for something, to have a vision of where one wants to go. The Fountainhead sounds the tocsin against the encroaching state, and Atlas Shrugged painted the dystopian future after that encroaching state has smothered everything in its path. However, Rand never presented a vision of a world in which the things she was fighting for—liberty, limited government, rational self-interest, and capitalism—had triumphed. One of the reasons I wrote The Golden Pinnacle, which you read, Ed, is to, if not show a world where those ideals had triumphed, to at least show what America was like when we approached the pinnacle of freedom during the Industrial Revolution. It is the first of a trilogy, and the third novel will offer the ultimate utopian vision.

    You can look at the current nightmare and despair. You ask: “how do ever get the government out of our lives?” Reformulate your question: “how do we restore freedom in America?” It may seem a trivial point, but the first question is akin to: “how do we get the cockroaches out of our kitchen?” It’s a valid question, and the cockroaches have to be eradicated, but it’s mundane and uninspiring. Restoring freedom, on the other hand, inspires, and freedom’s proponents aren’t left just pointing out the deleterious consequences of statism and coercion (even, or especially, for the so-called beneficiaries), but can instead frame the issues in terms of people building better lives for themselves and their families, unobstructed by the state, reaping their just rewards, and rediscovering respect for themselves and their fellow citizens. People need to strive for higher goals than cockroach eradication. (Even that task sounds more palatable if you reformulate it is a part of the job of making your kitchen sparkling clean.)

    If we Gulchers frame our goal as restoring freedom, then that can be done in ways large and small. Realize that like all corrupt, overreaching, overextended, overly indebted governments, ours will fail. A big part of our job will be done, but if all we can offer is: “told you so, told you so,” it will not matter. Winston Churchill said, “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else.” After the collapse, many Americans will be ready to try the right thing: restoring freedom. The government will be bankrupt and continuation of the welfare state and foreign adventurism will be fiscally impossible. But intellectual revolutions always precede actual revolutions, so it is now that we must make the case not just against current arrangements, but the positive case for restoring freedom, in every way that we can. That’s what leaders do.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      I think you've touched on something important here SLL. Please don't take it that just because I posted a question that I believe that is the answer. I'm getting what I hoped to from this post and that is for people to have a discussion about freedom at another level. I like your thought of reformulation the question, but you just did that for me. Thanks for your contribution, and one more time for Golden Pinnacle.
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    • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 7 months ago
      I'm for something. I have a vision. The Impeachment of Obama. And the further existence of the world.
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      • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 7 months ago
        I predict you'll be disappointed in the former, but not the latter.
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        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 7 months ago
          How much more depressed can I be?
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          • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 7 months ago
            Like I said above, people need something more inspiring than eradicating cockroaches (impeaching Obama).
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            • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 7 months ago
              I'm talking about the world here. Any questions?
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              • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 7 months ago
                And in just 6 years. You think 2 more years of BO is a vision? A dangerous vision.
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                • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 7 months ago
                  I don't think 2 more years of BO is a vision, but neither is getting rid of him. Read what I write.
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                  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 7 months ago
                    Again, straightlinelogic, I think you are the very devil at short term logic. You need to explicate reason a little further than into the next 6 weeks.
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                    • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 7 months ago
                      As a long term goal, an inspiring standard to which the wise and virtuous may repair, I can think of nothing more fitting than "restore freedom." That is not short term logic, that is a long range goal. Impeaching Obama is far more short range, and what can be more short range than "the further existence of the world," without consideration of what that world will be?
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                      • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 7 months ago
                        Forget what I said about the world.
                        Tell me your reasons for not impeaching him.
                        (Read my question to you in my new thread "Me and The Prez"--doesn't seem to be inspiring too many comments.)
                        You see, I think your reasons for not impeaching him is because you can only see the short term.
                        By every form of constitutional legality he has proven himself impeachment-worthy. That is, it is almost a moral obligation on the people and congress of America to fulfill that obligation.
                        A man who has done so much so far to actively (destroy may be too strong a word) at least one can say he has not "protected and defended the constitution". will not suddenly change overnight.You are committing the fallacy of failure to posit alternative consequences--that is, in the next 2 years something may come up in global events that would require a leader of some worth.
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                        • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 7 months ago
                          You misunderstand me. I would be more than happy to see him impeached, and the Constitution makes it essentially a political, not a legal question. However, I put that on the same plane as eradicating cockroaches; worthwhile, to be sure, but nothing we lovers of freedom and liberty can rally around as a long term ideal.
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                          • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 7 months ago
                            So you think we can have freedom and liberty without his impeachment, or eventually again, after he's gone.
                            You are forgetting unintended consequences--there just may be less of us around, SLL. Think about that!
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            • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 7 months ago
              A leader who can lead, perhaps a president that can be presidential, freedom that is true freedom?
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              • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 7 months ago
                If we make number 3 our goal, we have a shot at getting 1 and 2. As long as freedom is just empty rhetoric, mentioned in the same breath as protecting the social safety net and maintaining the police state in our war on terrorism, we can look forward to a succession of Obamas, Clintons, and Bushes until the whole shebang collapses. Freedom means freedom.
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                • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 7 months ago
                  And as things are going, not just in action, but in name.

                  There was a damned good reason the Founding Fathers did NOT want either a Monarch or a Regency for our government, and damned if they're not working their butts off to form one... and so far it has created EXACTLY what said Founding Fathers were determined not to let happen here.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
        Carol, there is nothing more than I would like is this guy impeached, really because he not qualified to be in this position in so many ways. I think what SLL is saying is there is no way it will happen so there is no sense waiting energy on it. As hard as that is, I have to agree. :)
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 7 months ago
        He's not impeachable.

        Article 2, section 1, clause 5.

        According to the provided birth certificate, his father was Barack Hussein Obama, sr. A British subject at the time of his birth.

        Although born in Hawaii and therefore a *native born* citizen, Obama is not a *natural born* citizen, because he is not the citizen child of citizens.

        He can't hold the office, ergo, he can't be impeached. Charged with fraud, grand larceny and manslaughter, yes... but not impeached.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
    some government can be good. can you define which parts you want to slough off? there are definitely other places to live which offer some beter de facto freedoms. But uniquely, US citizens are US citizens anywhere in the world. They take all of the risks and get none of the rewards of their citizenship when they live outside the country. That is why people are renouncing their citizenship in record numbers
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      I get this part. I understand the need of some government. What I am trying to get at is much dealer. What was it like to live in a time when government didn't even know you existed? You got to make your own choices and live with the result, or die from it. But it was your choice not one that someone else made. Yes we still get to do that to some degree but that is fading. Maybe this is just a fallacy but that is where my mind is going.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
        100 years ago you could cross borders without a passport
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        • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
          Was that a good thing or a bad thing? My answer would be it is a good thing for freedom. May not have been a good thing for a persons life. What was on the other side. Then again had the Pilgrims not set sail for a new beginning where would we be today? Why is it when population grows, society becomes more restrictive? Many more questions than answers.
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          • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 7 months ago
            Also at one time one could start a business - I think of the forge I own, started in the 1870's when someone saw a need and just did it - and there was no regulation or big brother saying "thou shalt not..." and demanding their bribes in the form of permits, fees, and for the most part, taxes... and that was a good thing. It allowed trade, productivity, and commerce to happen. It allowed people to be employed, and to succeed - or fail - on their own. Truly rewarded for their labors.

            Now, we have big government. And it seems the more government, the more oppressive anti-business said government becomes... and the more power it grabs, the larger the dragon becomes.

            No, big government is there for one purpose - to make itself bigger, and to skim the hard work of the producers off into the pockets of the moochers participating in said government.
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            • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 7 months ago
              You own a forge? That is so cool. I have twice made brakedrum forges, but I do not have one now (the last one was in 1987). If I get to the point where I have 'enough bucks' and 'time hanging heavy on my hands' I may make/buy another forge. (Like I need Yet Another Hobby...!)

              What do you make on it?

              Jan
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              • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 7 months ago
                Right now split time between maintenance tasks (straightening/correcting defects/repairs), heat treating metal (ended up larger part than I had imagined) and some manufacturing - functional appliances and tools, and "arms parts". I am working on a "dish" of my own design, trying to get better cyclonic airfeed to get more stable temps - will make a difference in the quality of my end product. Want to make a small gas unit to do very small parts (firing pins, index and pivot pins, and the like)...
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          • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 7 months ago
            Population density pushes more people into less space, like squeezing a snowball or compressing air or pulling cosmic dust into a star. It heats up and forces individual particles into ever more restricted orbits.

            When birds in a nest grow too big, they elbow each other out and are forced to leave, to live or die. The strongest prevail. Natural selection favors those who prevail.

            Crowded societies cope by migration, exodus, finding new frontiers, and, if necessary, squeezing out any native inhabitants. They also develop mutually agreed-upon or dictatorially imposed rules of cohabitation and collaboration, a system of edicts and laws, to enable co-existence under increasing pressures. "Justice" is not necessarily an ingredient in such accommodations.

            I've just returned from a 3-week tour of Europe. The pleasures were severely dented by the ordeal of being crammed, jammed, poked, rammed, crunched in queues and bunched, bumped and thumped in train stations, airports, subways, docks, even on hiking trails, not to mention the indignities of all the security checkpoints... a first-hand, close-up view of the psychology of overcrowding, the surliness of the crowds, the thinly veiled menace of the controllers.

            When society gets overheated, with no place left to go, conflict breaks out. Finally some loot and burn, and eventually resort to genocide.

            We need the next stage of evolution, the intellectual and philosophical one through which there can be co-existence without mutual destruction. Contracts, trade agreements, division of labor, negotiated settlements, respect for others' property, voluntary reduction in birth rates... there is no conflict of interest between rational men (and women). Reach for Reason, not for weaponry. Find a way to take unthinking emotions out of the driver's seat and predators out of the seats of power.

            "Human nature" is not written in stone; it is the product of a long chain of evolutionary changes to meet the demands of survival. Let's understand and retool ourselves so that life can reach the highest freedom for each individual. The core value to this end is that no one may use another as a natural resource to be exploited, like forests or coal mines or water (alias the Golden Rule). Only by mutual consent can any one's precious time and energy become an asset for others.

            There is still a natural limit to how many people can co-exist within a certain amount of space. The need for Lebensraum has always been the trigger for deadly contention. We must learn to tame the selfish genes and the tenacious memes, to assure survival and to end wars and depredations in human relationships.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
              Excellent comments puzzlelady. You should have made it a post. Interesting perspectives on Europe. I am curious about one point. Voluntary reduction in birth rate? Sounds a little anti human to me
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              • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 7 months ago
                Thanks, KH. Voluntary is the keyword. If everyone were fully responsible for the care and upbringing of their offspring, with no welfare handouts and free public services, they would not breed with the abandon we see in some countries and subgroups. Instead of 8 or 10 children, people might choose to have only 2 or 3. I'm not talking about mandatory limits imposed by government; I mean responsible limits freely chosen by the individuals involved. It is not pro-human to outbreed the holding capacity of our life support system. We either limit ourselves rationally or purge the surplus violently.
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                • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
                  If we were approaching the "holding capacity" you would expect that more of us would be on the edge of starvation. Over the last 200 years, we started to escape the Malthusian Trap. The population was significantly smaller. IN the last 40 years, even more people have escaped living on the edge of starvation. and the population has more than doubled and the number of people in starvation or at the edge of it, has declined significantly, more than 1/2 in percentage terms and even greater in absolute numbers. In a free society, each individual is a resource, not a burden. The environmentalists' position that we will run out of resources, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of resources. They are not fixed things because humans invent, which creates new resources.
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                • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
                  I don't think the evidence backs your assertion. Fact: Africans on the edge of starvation are having lots of children. In fact, the evidence is quite strong that the closer you are to the Malthusian Trap, the more children you have. As wealth per capita increases, societies as a whole population, decline significantly, to below population replacement rates. Europeans do not have children at the replacement rate, so there was a huge concern that Muslims who moved into Europe would overtake the population. But statistics show the Muslims who move to Europe have children at reduced levels compared with their birth country. As people become wealthier, they tend to have less children. The congestion you experienced in European cities is due in part to regulations. There are laws that make it difficult to build in rural areas. In fact, large parts of the world are sparsely populated. What is the magic number in your estimation?
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
            I'm not sure that population is the driver. Using your own example, the Pilgrims had a very restrictive socialistic society. I posted in here before exerpts from a journal where while the shared all harvests people were often sick or hurting and production was just enough to squeeze by. They then decided to give each family plots to maintain and production increased significantly with women and children helping the males in the field. Singapore is densely populated but has more economic freedom than the US. Of course it is less free in terms of societal laws. It 's human nature to knee jerk "there needs to be a law! " or "give me something for free! " We were given a republic. We didn 't keep it.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
        I hate typing on my phone and it auto corrects a word that it shouldn't. Dealer should be deeper. Of course that may mean I should be wearing my glasses.
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        • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 7 months ago
          You can go into your utilities and turn off the auto-correct.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
            Or I can wear my glasses and proof read. LOL. But that is a good suggestion that I will look at.
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            • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 7 months ago
              I killed autocorrect about 10 minutes after getting my new phone... when it was giving me politically correct garbage instead of what I was typing. What's worse is you correct the auto-correct and it changes it right back - or tries to correct it into something even worse. (typical example - "Who is join guilt?")

              Of course, I am guilty of fat-thumbing like crazy, but at least it's not like my old one where I had to type with my pinkies... You can also adjust the font and color scheme - makes it easier to read what you wrote...
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    • Posted by zagros 9 years, 7 months ago
      Having US citizenship but living abroad is really not all that bad if we could simply get the US government to adopt a system of taxation based on location of source of income (or, at worst, residency) rather than citizenship (like the rest of the world already does). The problem with the US is that it wants to have its cake and eat it as well. It wants anyone who is a resident of the US to pay taxes, anyone who is a citizen to pay taxes as if they were resident in the US, every company to pay taxes to the US even if its tax residence is elsewhere, etc. Also the US should stop asking for foreign accounts. Once I make my money and move it offshore (after ALREADY paying taxes on it when I made it in the United States), it should be subject to the laws of the jurisdiction where I choose to move my money, not US law.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 7 months ago
    "Is death the only way to rid yourself of government? "

    Taking this to mean the kind of government we have now, it doesn't work. Taxes follow you there, too.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 7 months ago
    I sure hope not. Of course freedom can be judged subjectively and one man's utopia is another's prison. Freedom is also relative and I would like to think we could regain more freedom if enough people demanded it. The question does remind me of what Franklin said: "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."
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  • Posted by m082844 9 years, 7 months ago
    Why do you want to rid yourself of the government? Don't you want to institute an agent to objectively retaliate against those that initiate force?

    When you're dead you cease to exist; your chemicals remain but the life that was you is destroyed forever. Death will remove every relationship between yourself and everything else (including the gov).
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
    The reason that I posted a planning exercise for the construction of Atlantis is to give all of us here hope that we could be both free and alive.
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  • Posted by zagros 9 years, 7 months ago
    The only way to rid yourself of government is to stop accepting the idea that you have the right to interfere in the personal choices of others and have all others agree to the same principle with regard to others (including you). If you die, you are not free. You are merely dead.
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  • Posted by mccwho 9 years, 7 months ago
    Your question about the Pilgrims, depends on your perspective. The people that this country already belonged to would not think the Pilgrims coming here was good thing. Attempted genocide, introduction of diseases, etc… My Great Grandfather talked about how his grandfather used to do whatever they wanted, went where ever they wanted, when they wanted, lived how they wanted and did not have to tell anyone or get anyone’s permission. Now that was freedom. The government hated Native Americans for many reasons, one of those reason; they knew the difference between the illusion of freedom and true freedom. That’s the philosophy I live by to this day. Governments seek to control, otherwise where is their power?
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 7 months ago
    Yes, if you're an Existentialist.
    Do you mean freedom in the sense of no obligations, no need to labor and to do whatever you wish whenever you wish it? If you are a human, there is no way to be totally free in that sense. Besides, you'd probably have the same problem as Adam. You'd be bored and curiosity would get the better of you. However, this does not preclude you from striving to be as free as it is possible. Always there will be obligations keeping you from total freedom; to your loved ones, your job, to yourself, etc. The greatest barrier to human freedom is others telling you what you can and cannot do and forcing you to obey. In an evil society, the use of the law, which should be beneficial is often used to cut away your freedom so that others can have power over you. To answer the question more fully, you are totally free in death, but since you no longer exist, it is a moot point.
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    • Posted by WaltMaken 9 years, 7 months ago
      Stephen Covey, the author of "The 7 Habits of Effective People" is quoted among some of the quotes linked at https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=ch... as having said: "We are not human beings on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual beings on a human journey." Further relating to your statement that ".....but since you no longer exist,....", you might find some interesting "food for thought" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMx...
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 7 months ago
        OK. How about, "Since you no longer exist as a human being? So far, no one has been able to prove anything about death. Does consciousness go on bodyless? I'd love to think so, but even Houdini was unable to report back.
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        • Posted by WaltMaken 9 years, 7 months ago
          Over the years I've come across 3 "bits of wisdom" that I try to keep in mind that are especially helpful in being able to be more objective and less subjective when evaluating new or otherwise unfamiliar subjects. Those are: 1. Never utter these words 'I do not know this, therefore it is false.' One must study to know, know to understand, understand to judge. 2. The most difficult mental process of all is to objectively consider any concept which, if accepted as fact, will turn into discard a lifetime of training and experience. And 3. When one who has been honestly mistaken is shown or told the truth, they will either stop being mistaken or cease being honest. Which will you do? Those 3 "bits of wisdom" are available as a nice single-page pdf download at https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0... .

          In response to your further question "Since you no longer exist as a human being?", and in light of those 3 "bits of wisdom", have you yet taken the time to watch and objectively consider the entirety of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMx... ? If not, along with keeping in mind those 3 "bits of wisdom", it would probably be helpful to enabling you to have a more objective considering of that video for you to first take the time to watch a shorter, 23 minute long video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYKB-Hg7... in order to better understand our natural tendencies to be subjective rather than objective in evaluating what we "see" (or what we THINK we "see").

          Once you have watched both videos, and also are keeping in mind those 3 "bits of wisdom", then revisit the Stephen Covey quote that: "We are not human beings on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual beings on a human journey." and see if that then gives you a different perspective on your question "Since you no longer exist as a human being?"
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          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 7 months ago
            The youtube video "Eye of the Beholder" this is an attack on epistemology and contains numerous errors. First of all knowledge is contextual and every instance of confusion shown is about inferences that ignore the facts. The maid could not have seen murder without ignoring the most obvious fact that the woman got up and walked out. The same is true of the other people, just more subtle.

            The optical illusions at the beginning prove nothing. There are no blocks, it is an illustration. The answer would be that the painter failed to convey their meaning if they wanted to show 6 block instead of 7 and vice versa.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 7 months ago
            Frankly, in my postings on this subject, it was not my intention to digress into a discussion of spirituality. If it is your intention to educate me in certain areas I am always open to that, but I don't think it would be right to carry on such a discussion on this site. If you wish to do so, I'll give you an e-mail address through which we can communicate.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 7 months ago
            My 2 bits of wisdom:

            1) I used to have an open mind, until too many people mistook it for an empty garbage can

            2) I'm always right. Because when I discover I'm wrong, I change my mind.
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  • Posted by Zero 9 years, 7 months ago
    Work toward the future.

    We live in the days we live in. Little to be done about that.

    But the future is ours. Manifest Destiny all over again.

    Work toward new, independent, city-states at sea or in space.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 7 months ago
      MarsFirst. You just need to warm it up, exchange the CO2 for O2 and N2, and increase the atmospheric density.

      Or Venusia... Neutralize the Greenhouse gasses, remove the caustics and toxins from the atmosphere, and cool it down.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 7 months ago
        I've been working on how to Terraform each of them.

        Both need moons. Mars a bigger one than Phobos & Deimos, and a good sized one for Venus. Maybe Mercury? I'd prefer Pluto, due to its atmospheric gasses and size, but Ganymede or Titan would do for Venus. Their large size makes scaling them in to Venus more difficult, of course.

        We then bombard Venus with icy asteroids and small planetary moons, in timed collisions, some of which would blow off part of the atmosphere, and then the introduction of genetically engineered organisms to separate the H2SO4 out of the atmosphere; although that new oxygen-fixing product mentioned in another post might prove invaluable.

        Of course, the process will take a little while...
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        • Posted by Zero 9 years, 7 months ago
          Space Habs.
          Looks like space access is about to be privatized, that should speed things up considerably.

          50 to 100 years - tops.

          Sea-Cities could be much sooner.

          We just need to motate!
          (My word for motivate and get moving.)
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 7 months ago
            I've long thought it stupid that there's not been the spacecraft equivalent of Ford; mass produced reusable spacecraft.

            We should be building surface-to-orbit craft, and orbit-to-orbit craft, and habitats (giant, orbit-to-orbit craft sans propulsion systems), and we should be building robotic craft, to transport fuel to/from trans-solar "coaling stations" and "refineries" we'll have to build.
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  • Posted by Notperfect 9 years, 7 months ago
    George Washington said "influence is no government". Ask many union members or lobbyists about influencing anyone they can get their paws on or their beliefs to be heard. They themselves are like sheep lead to slaughter also. Many spread this rhetoric because they have been brainwashed to believe it then when the day comes and their life becomes mute the next one in line starts the cycle all over again and sometimes with changes, but trying to keep on par with the last so-called elite. Influence in this way will never give up until all is lost. Michigan 4 years back became a right-to-work law state and union participation has dropped from 22% to 16%. Unemployment is still high and will continue until we fail or many people in this state realize government has always been the problem because they trample on their own Constitution along with the U.S. Constitution. I still have hope for the latter and the real change in America that she needs. If that faction opens its eyes and sees what they have created then maybe just maybe freedom will be restored. Those men who gave their lives and all they had to start this country are rolling in their graves because somewhere in the past we all had lost that spirit that made America, but the one thing that has changed is we that want that freedom back are at least trying harder and harder. Win some lose some, but I will never give up.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
    This has been another great discussion. I'd like everyone to keep in mind that this post is not about dying. I never said dying was the right thing. Simply brought it up to see if others have ever considered the subject.
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  • Posted by eddieh 9 years, 7 months ago
    I think that being completely free and dependant only on your own intellegance and skills is exciting for some, challenging for others and terrifying for most. Many sheeple need to be governed.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      You may be right but I may contend that is only because people have become conditioned to being governed. I often wonder what it was like when there was only a few people in a society. Has there always been some jerk that has to control others? My guess, that is more or less true likely in a very barbaric way. :)
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      • Posted by eddieh 9 years, 7 months ago
        With the huge number of people on the planet we would see utter chaos . Two people left in the world would be fighting about something. A certain amount of order is necessary. We now have far too much
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  • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 7 months ago
    Freedom from the restrictions of society is anarchy. Even in death you are not free, you are bound by the rules of science that control your earthly remains.
    Both Aristotle and Socrates wrote and spoke of death and spiritual freedom, but one must remember the were both soldiers, and a certain expectation of death is common enough.
    Friedrich Nietzsche " theorized that in order to truly "live" a realistic confrontation with death was required."
    But is death truly death, no one really knows . . .
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    • Posted by $ sjatkins 9 years, 7 months ago
      You are confusing society with government, especially with the grossly overinflated government of today. You also may want to keep in mind the difference between the manmade and thus changeable and the given by reality.

      Being in reality does not mean you are not free. Freedom with no context for any being at all (reality) is impossible and a floating abstraction.

      Death is by definition truly death. IF it was "just a transition" then it is not in fact death. There is zero evidence of this so by what we do know it is not so. Asserting the positive otherwise requires evidence. It is not required for others to prove some universal negative.

      Please don't use such sloppy ungrounded logic.
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      • -1
        Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 7 months ago
        It is unusual to hear form someone who has no hope of life after death, or even of remembrance.
        Society is governance and our "grossly overinflated government" is a creation of our society. One might wonder if, from what you allege, our governance inflated itself . . . or is that a property of any governance?
        For myself, I tend to believe that we, as stewards of our society did not take sufficient care when we voted, if we didn't pay sufficient attention to how those we've elected and reelected have or have not done our work.
        Being a sentient being who claims an erudition does not in any way permit opinionated commentary that is groundless. If you were even relatively familiar with the philosophers' whose theses I referenced, you wouldn't have written what you did.
        You will find a few years in a library to be enlightening.
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        • Posted by $ sjatkins 9 years, 7 months ago
          Nazi Germany was a "creation of society" too but so what? It was still rankly evil and needed to be reformed or in this case overturned. Surely you do not believe that anything society creates is good?

          I am NOT a "steward of society". That is the language of our oppressors and is 180 from the position of objectivists. You have the right to live your life as you wish totally for your own sake respecting the right of others to do the same. Anything less is a slave pen.

          When there is no real choice to vote for and when the parties themselves are corrupt and when the rules are rigged against 3rd parties it hardly makes sense to blame the victims that had no means left them to choose except to leave, revolt, or shrug.

          It is frankly your response that is badly grounded.
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          • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 7 months ago
            Since everyone of a society is a steward of that society, and you claim that you are "NOT" a Steward of Society, you are not an Objectivist, and your understanding of Rand is badly skewed, you are an anarchist.
            Objectivists are all stewards of society their effort makes society work. It is when individuals attempt to take advantage of society, so well portrayed in Rand's works, particularly in Atlas Shrugged that the society is damaged.
            Society in Atlas Shrugged is ground to a halt because of those individuals. In Shrugged Ayn predicted Barack Obama and the actions of his "Progressive" political cronies from both sides of the aisle, who are more interested in personal aggrandizement than the needs of the people or the country.
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            • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 7 months ago
              I don’t know why people are pointing you down. You present your arguments with well written sentence and give others a change to exercise a few brain-cells in rebuttal. (Note: I didn’t say you were right. :))
              I’m going to give you your point back and hope that others realize that it is refreshing from time to time to have a logical opinion to mull over.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
              Steward of society. Laws are made for individuals not societies. How you are relating this to Rand is completely false. I would agree that no govt is a bad solution as I would agree freedom is not restricted by laws which focus on the protection of property rights. It 's the laws made for society (as if society could possibly have rights) which limit individuals ' freedoms.
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              • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 7 months ago
                KH shall we agree to disagree? The functional Objectivist, so clearly defined in A.S. and contrasted in "Living" and "Anthem" is so clear. It is the Objectivist who makes everything work, in the process of which, all else is supported. In today's society, Objectivism has been overrun by the takers. No Objectivist minds takers with legitimate need, it is the bums who will not work who will break the system.
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                • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
                  disagree. It is the powerful who yell democracy who break the system. bums bum out. they don't vote.
                  Objectivists get their nose out of joint easily. knock them down like a bowling pin when they are elitist. or zen or alabaster
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                  • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 7 months ago
                    KH we are not a Democracy, pure Democracy only existed two times, in ancient Athens where it existed for just fourteen years before Cicero was forced to end the anarchy with force, and in France in 1792 when it lasted 41 days. We are a Constitutional Representative Democracy wherein we follow the Constitution's direction to elect Assemblymen and Senators as well as a president and vice president.
                    When we do not enforce our will on our representatives, then we have what we have today.
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 7 months ago
      Death is not freedom. There is no consciousness without the working brain. Death is oblivion. So consider well whether to wipe yourself out permanently. Small consolation to know your remaining molecules get mixed in with earth or fire or water or air. Small consolation also to think that memories of you endure temporarily in other brains.

      Only while there is life can you still make your mark in the world, add a stepping stone to humanity's future. Never give up of your own free will. Live for your own life. Give no one control of your mind. The mind IS free.
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 7 months ago
        I love your explanation, puzzlelady! freedom is the
        state which we experience when we discard outside
        boundaries, as Rand did, and think for ourselves,
        IMHO. it is the route to invention, love, conviction
        and peace. Never Give Up your inner freedom!!! -- j

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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 7 months ago
    Government is only necessary when people refuse to police themselves. When everyone comes to agreement on a universal set of standards and actually lives by them (and teaches their children to live by them), we obviate the need for the coercive powers of government.

    Not sure we will be able to get rid of all government, as there will still need to be people to make decisions regarding public works, etc.
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