Quite correct. I expect the same at the start of the next War Between the States.

You would be most welcome, coaldigger.

Galt's Gulch Chile is a definite option that will be discussed. Do you mind starting a new post on that, sharizona?

No, I don't think any of us knew about Galt's Gulch Chile, although we had considered a couple of Chilean islands. Of the South American countries, Chile is the only one with a government that is even close to espousing Gulch values. A month ago I priced the cost of living in Chile. It was pretty comparable to most places in America other than overcrowded, overpriced urban areas such as New York or Los Angeles or Washington, DC (excuse me, Mordor as one of the other posters suggested this AM).

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Curaca...

Permits?

If Hawaii left the union, it would be on its own and a target of the Japanese, Chinese, Philippines; take your pick. The looters would salivate. We would need a battle group just to keep from being overrun. That's if the US "allowed" the secession without the military intervening. Look what happened when the South seceded.

The foliage is old growth and it would be a shame to cut any of those giant trees. A sea helicopter or sea plain could be possible during high water. I am not a bush pilot. It is about 300+ Mi. as the crow flies from the nearest airport. 600+ miles by very bad road that can only be used during the dry season. Then one has to hire a local canoe and guide to get there. Some of the land is on a fair sized river. There are lots of tributaries. There are some locals that live in the area and probably some pass through indigenous that you will never see.

Nice rant on the current situation, johnmahler. The Founding Fathers and their recent ancestors had just left to what they considered that era's best opportunity for Galt's Gulch. In the end they had to fight a protracted war in order to obtain liberty.

I would agree that it is un-American to run away to a utopian mythical Galt's Gulch, but America ceased being America at some point in this millennium. My country left me first.

I like your analysis of question B.

I heard somebody call it that a couple of years ago and liked it as I was stationed there back in the 80's. I heard it again here on the Gulch and it reminded me of the name. I think it is more appropriate now then it was back then.

Nice trailer. You could go almost anywhere with that. Love all everything is up and out of the way, nothing to come apart and drag,

Good morning to the Gulch! I have been reading here for a long time but never before commented. You guys are too smart for me! So, I have a question. . .do you all know about Galts Gulch Chile? http://galtsgulchchile.com If so, what do you think about it? A viable possibility for that Atlantis? PS I love the conversations I read!

I'm a "nobody" in any consideration. That's my only credential. That said, I have always had a major disagreement with Ayn Rand in her novel "Atlas Shrugged". I do not think any true patriotic American would desert his country to "Galt's Gulch". It makes me feel good to think it is possible, but I know my country, right or wrong is still FIRST my country. Right now, as many have aptly said, "Atlas Shrugged" has become reality, no longer fiction. Yet Libertarians, Tea Party coalition, and independents aren't running away to any such gulch. There are currently 35% able bodied citizens receiving long term government assistance / largesse. Racial hatred is pumping as hard as the Left can pull the handle on the hate pump. The economy is in shambles, because all redistributed funds are borrowed from China, including foreign aid and military aid to "switch sides" allies. Allies, who switch sides depending on who we cyclically call "enemy" in all our foreign wars. The Constitution to an oil man president is "just a God damned piece of paper" which is completely ignored by the unilateral president Pen-n-Phone. Our representational republican government has been usurped by Congress created agencies. Indeterminate detention, Affordable Care Act, and the Patriot Act have sealed the FED defined "Tribute Slave", corporate asset (chattel citizen), away from the self rule bequeathed all who call themselves American citizens. Deceased is the individual sovereign citizen; as defined by the Founding Fathers in the pre-1913 Constitution. Our situation is worse now than when the War for Independence was fought and won. Not many of Washington's troops went home before the British were defeated. I think it is un-American to run away to a utopian mythical Galt's Gulch. I hate war as much as our Founding Fathers. Read the Declaration of Independence again. The Declaration of Independence in excerpt:"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." There is no mention in any of the Founding Father documents, including news papers, the Federalist / Anti-Federalist papers, citing surrender to tyrannical oppression! Our Founding Fathers, Patriots, citizen soldiers, gave everything, wealth, health, life that America should exist; a beacon of freedom for all generations as long as they stand and fight for it. President Reagan reminded us freedom is not inherited in the blood stream. Federalist termites have long eaten away at the roots of America starting with the banking institution and now fattened and bloated thereby the Leviathan monster has coiled itself about the states and crushed them so they believe only retreat solves their issues as it dies for want of tribute. The irony remains, there is nowhere to which they may retreat. The aristocrats of Rome retreated to the countryside and the north at the fall of Rome. Thereon followed the five-hundred years of the Dark Ages. If war is to be avoided in retaking our country, FED fractional reserve banking and income taxation must end. Sadly, my bones ache with the certainty only war will accomplish that because Congress is no longer a place of honorable service but has been reduced to the status of a "federal job".

At the door, I would enumerate an array of skills and an assessment of their state of deterioration as trade to gain admission. The after hours conversation alone would be of great worth.

A) 25
B)10 to get built; 90 once land, permits, etc secured
C) if either obummer or hillary are in office a/o 2016

I don't mean to say I would be deadweight. I am a pretty good short order cook and I specialize in breakfast meals. I can make a sourdough pancake so light you better butter it quick before it floats away. Eggs to order, pain perdu made with homemade sourdough French bread. Stews and soups, and a bowl of chili you can't push away. I call myself a cook, not a chef. I make food, not cuisine.

If we pick a mountainous spot for Atlantis, would you be interested in coal digging again?

Well, I started to compare it to hemorrhoids but decided they weren't quite far enough over on the pain scale.

As someone with both kidney stones and gout on occasion, that is an uninviting comparison.

I am... a little more color to the numbers above. We're either at or over the 50 percent point of the population realizing they can vote themselves goodies. To me it seems we're now in a race to the bottom... I don't see this turning around. Too many people with their hands out, not enough producers to support them.

The "rich" are now evil, the poor are the sacred. Why bother supporting this type of society... <sigh>

A. 0 for now but I expect that we will engage in a civil war (mostly between sects of looters) which will so disrupt our society that it will bring about the fall In rapid order.

B. I think Atlantis already exists in our minds and I believe that only annihilation of the whole human race will prevent a rebirth if the failure is allowed to max out and the current leading countries are hit the hardest. Once started, I expect a desire for a new wave of producers to take hold faster than Atlantis can get fully established.

C. I am already past my tolerance and have shrugged mentally. This would seem to be a meaningless gesture since I am 73 however I have never spent a night in a hospital, take no medications, my 105 year old mother lives with my wife and I at my insistence and for my peace of mind but not because she needs my help. My father passed at 94 but he was a coalminer. I may not live as long as my mother (her grandfather lived to 112) but I have reason to believe I would have productive years ahead should I choose to do so.

I have things to see, books to read, music to enjoy, food and drink to taste and places to experience as long as the world is intact. When any or all of these pleasures are no longer accessible, this grasshopper will check around to see if the ants have a use for him and if not will choose an exit that seems meaningful at the time.