How bad does it have to get for you to leave?

Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 8 months ago to The Gulch: General
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Straightlinelogic recently and eloquently stated that he wants his freedom back in a couple of different posts. This is why several of us are game planning for Atlantis. Some of us want a physical Atlantis to give us hope. Some would like multiple distributed Atlantises, and I am not opposed to that.

What I am asking you to rate on a scale of 0 to 100 each of the following:

A) Your hope for your current country (Please state either US or non-US as well;

B) What your hope would be if we built Atlantis; and

C) What your hope would have to be in order for you to be so desperate that you would have to leave.

Remember Atlantis won't happen overnight. Many, including myself, are not planning on going unless things get really desperate. I have as good a shrug position as I could ever get.


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  • Posted by tkstone 6 years, 8 months ago
    I don't believe midas mulligan ever took a survey. He saw an opportunity to live out his life in a way that he chose. because of his ability to see value where others did not he created a development that attracted all of the other like-minded individuals. For Atlantis to happen a developer will have to take the initial risk with the belief that the demand will follow. The rest of his market will only look for his value when they reach the point that the value in their current situation has gone over the edge. Just like in the story we will all come to that point at different times and in different ways. The likelihood of one development for all gulchers in my mind is remote. The fact remains that a community that can survive and thrive at that level will of its nature be small and populated by like-minded individuals. It sounds like some of you have have had the opportunity to build relation ships outside this forum. I wish you luck and hope this forum will be the one esy that like minded communities will communicate on the future. We will need to reestablish trade, value for value, right!? I bet my succulent smoked pork loin will be in demand!:)
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    • Posted by $ johnrobert2 6 years, 8 months ago
      As I recollect, John Galt approached MM about coming to Atlantis. At least in AS1. I think MM owned the valley in question beforehand and only disappeared at JG's suggestion.
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      • Posted by tkstone 6 years, 8 months ago
        You are correct, but I believe JG only invited MM to strike. It was MM's idea to retire to his property in the mountains. The other strikers started the tradition of getting together once a year for a month to be around others of a like mind and Atlantis formed organically. JG did not "plan" Atlantis. It happened because of a series of individual desires and decisions. I believe our process can work much the same. Whether it is in Peru, a cruise ship, or an abandoned old elevator town in northern Iowa. Each will have their market and like minds will tend to gravitate together.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
      Midas didn't take a survey, but I am not Midas. I don't know how many people we are talking about, so without Midas, we need to do the best we can. We'll look forward to your pork loin.
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      • Posted by tkstone 6 years, 8 months ago
        Understand. It seems most conversations on creating a gulch resonate toward an island or a structure at sea. I think both hold intellectual promise, but this midwest landlubber would never make that. I have just resignef myself to be one of those that disappears into the woodwork. We own property that is miles from the nearest road and on a significant river. Since it is in the frigid northern reaches of the Midwest, I figure there will not be a lot of interlopers. Most intelligent people flee the cold, but the land is incredibly fertile. I'll dream of you all on your tropical isle though.I wish you could see mine too. Even the winter has its beauty, and I think we will be just fine
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        • Posted by $ arthuroslund 6 years, 8 months ago
          Being from Iowa, I would never go for a boat or island. I agree with your assessment of the cold to keep the looters (government agents) away. I have chosen the Amazon because I figure the climate, insects, diseases, etc. will keep the looters away. Also the Amazon is one of the few places left on earth where one can truly and easily live off the land.
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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
            If you are interested in selling Amazonian parcels, there might be some interest in that area for a Gulch.
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            • Posted by $ arthuroslund 6 years, 8 months ago
              I know someone who will sell 1000 acre parcels for $25 per acre. I would have to vet for serious offers and take a commission. Warning, the land is extremely remote. That means a difficult two to three day travel from Manaus, Br. Anyone interested should know how to handle themselves in the tropics and be aware that electricity requires a gas powered generator. Getting there by boat is only possible during high water and most of the land usually floods for several months every year. Houses are built on stilts.
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              • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
                At this point, we are in the interest gathering stage, but the commission would be well-deserved. Is there anywhere to land a helicopter or seaplane, or is the foliage that consistently dense?
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                • Posted by $ arthuroslund 6 years, 8 months ago
                  The foliage is old growth and it would be a shame to cut any of those giant trees. A sea helicopter or sea plain could be possible during high water. I am not a bush pilot. It is about 300+ Mi. as the crow flies from the nearest airport. 600+ miles by very bad road that can only be used during the dry season. Then one has to hire a local canoe and guide to get there. Some of the land is on a fair sized river. There are lots of tributaries. There are some locals that live in the area and probably some pass through indigenous that you will never see.
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                  • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
                    Understood. That has some definite benefits in terms of lack of access. That lack of access is also a drawback in some respects, too. We will keep this under consideration.
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  • Posted by DaveM49 6 years, 8 months ago
    I am an electronic technician, general repairman, author, poet, photographer, almost computer tech (I don't have the course work, the certificate, or all of the skills), with wide-ranging skills in survival and self-reliance (professional experience in renewable small scale energy resources), researcher of long experience (still keep my skills sharp even in the age of the internet), certified appraiser of antiques and collectibles, and more. I can wire or plumb a house and if need be make some of my own tools. I can drive a nail as well as anyone and if there's nothing else available, I can run the business end of a shovel, chain saw, or axe. And more.

    As long as there are people willing to trade value for value, there should be something on that list that will be of interest. If not, I am always willing to learn.
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    • Posted by DaveM49 6 years, 8 months ago
      I am also an EMT (though my training was not recent) and have more than a passing familiarity with medicinal wild plants and medical techniques using only "available materials".
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  • Posted by coaldigger 6 years, 8 months ago
    A. 0 for now but I expect that we will engage in a civil war (mostly between sects of looters) which will so disrupt our society that it will bring about the fall In rapid order.

    B. I think Atlantis already exists in our minds and I believe that only annihilation of the whole human race will prevent a rebirth if the failure is allowed to max out and the current leading countries are hit the hardest. Once started, I expect a desire for a new wave of producers to take hold faster than Atlantis can get fully established.

    C. I am already past my tolerance and have shrugged mentally. This would seem to be a meaningless gesture since I am 73 however I have never spent a night in a hospital, take no medications, my 105 year old mother lives with my wife and I at my insistence and for my peace of mind but not because she needs my help. My father passed at 94 but he was a coalminer. I may not live as long as my mother (her grandfather lived to 112) but I have reason to believe I would have productive years ahead should I choose to do so.

    I have things to see, books to read, music to enjoy, food and drink to taste and places to experience as long as the world is intact. When any or all of these pleasures are no longer accessible, this grasshopper will check around to see if the ants have a use for him and if not will choose an exit that seems meaningful at the time.
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  • Posted by $ Mimi 6 years, 7 months ago
    A) 41 -I have little hope things will turn around in the US.
    B) 0- I have no expectations or need for an Atlantis. I prefer to hide in plain sight.
    C) I am already looking into where I will go. I’m seriously looking at New Zealand. It’s not perfect, but it’s near perfect. What I like most is that people seem to forget it’s on the map. Even ISIS when tweeting a map of the countries they would take over with their caliphate left New Zealand off. Lol. I also like about NZ:
    low population
    strict immigration
    english is the official language
    beautiful landscape
    air-cleansing tradewinds
    Non-assuming people
    surf always within a day’s drive.
    What I don’t like:
    No flying birds
    The country is remote
    Two reasons I feel I have to make the move in the next five years. (At the very least --buy vacation property there.)
    1) I don’t want to get to old to do this (I am 52) and I don’t want to spend anymore of my 20+ years left complaining endlessly about how this country is falling apart.
    2) I do think things are going to get real bad in the US over the next twenty years and it will be easier for my children and their children to get out if they want if I’m set-up already.

    ETA: I also like how NZ is on the cutting edge of most advances. For instance: dd you know ATMs and debit cards were first introduced in NZ for study? That’s a benefit of a low population.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 6 years, 7 months ago
    Interesting question. Throughout human history, when situations became intolerable, the daring and innovative picked up and moved, seeking greener pastures or freer horizons. (Too bad that sometimes meant evicting the indigenous from the desired new locales.)

    Atlantis in AS had the necessary natural resources, plus invisibility from its hostile surroundings, and the symbiotic human skill sets, predicated on a power source "invention" of science fiction proportions and pipelines into the outside world. Atlantis was a microcosm, a prototype, of what an ideal and dynamic society could be. Now how to get everyone else to see and accept those values on the larger national and global scale, by persuasion and without bloodshed?

    Today we've run out of places to run to. All the locations you are examining are vulnerable to attack, siege, being overrun, and exhausting resources. True isolation without dependence on outside sources may be impossible to maintain in a hostile and envious world.

    Outer space occurred to me as well and was the first suggestion my husband made. However, that environment is the least conducive for human survivability; and for locomotion you'll need technology we don't yet have. See if Richard Branson is interested.

    A Gulch-inspired Atlantis, with jbrenner-qualified applicants, would, I am afraid, quickly devolve into the same kind of in-fighting that all too often appears in these galtsgulchonline threads. Would it need a "boss" or head of state to issue edicts, a tribal chief who promulgates rules for everyone else and can banish those who become persona non grata? Will all members be constantly on trial for potential transgressions? Will it become a "commune" where cliques form and seek to dominate? Will the one oath, "I swear by my life..." be enough to guarantee toleration of otherwise individual differences?

    I have lived in 60 places in my life (part of a refugee family's travail), so relocating would not be a problem. I live on the road much of the year now. As long as gas stations operate, I can stay on the move.

    However, I have successfully lived and productively worked for the last 40 years out of reach of the system, and spread individualist ideas in subtle and user-friendly ways. I have built a wonderful group of associates and freethinkers, and I have not given up hope of changing things from the inside. We need to stand our ground. So my answers are:

    A) 99% (USA)
    B) 50%
    C) 1%
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    • Posted by CarolSeer2014 6 years, 7 months ago
      What a great post. A consideration of human nature is involved in your post. I have some ideas on just what that nature is, but certainly I don't know all the answers.
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      • Posted by $ puzzlelady 6 years, 7 months ago
        Thanks, Carol. I'd love to hear your ideas about human nature. You can message me off-thread on my Facebook page @puzzlelady.
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        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 6 years, 7 months ago
          My contention, puzzlelady, is that all the philosophers and psychologists and neurologists and political scientists and evolutionary biologists (have I missed anybody) over the millenia have still not given us a clue as to human nature. I think we need a more common sensical approach.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 6 years, 8 months ago
    A) US. 80%. There have been numerous 'required social philosophies' (currently, Global Warming) that have been deposed over the years; Socialism is waiting for its turn to be overthrown. If the philosophy of Randists/Objectivists/Libertarians is made sufficiently available, then when the economic system collapses because of being burdened by non-producers there is a good chance that a ROL philosophy of independence will take the lead. Please note that even if the producers do not Go Galt, there is a point at which this will occur. IF this happens there will be an occasion to put some protections (eg amendments) in place to be sure that an entitlement society does not take over again. This is why movies like Atlas Shrugged and Winter Soldier are IMPORTANT. It is upon legends that the future will depend.

    B) I would love there to be an Atlantis. Were there one, I would want to move there immediately. (I occasionally browse the internet to see if there is a country which is stronger in freedom than the US. I have not found one such - only countries in which one can more easily be obscure.) The desire for this is like a magnet that draws me emotionally. However, I must take C into account, and I do try not to make decisions with my emotions.

    C) I have invested over 20 years into co-founding (with another Randist, please note) a small company that is now one of the world leaders in Laboratory Informatics. I have contemplated moving the company to Ensenada to get out from under Obamacare; I have considered moving the company to West Texas, if Texas is strong enough to resist Federal socialism (its not doing great at that, though better than CA!). My co-founder does not want to move anywhere anytime, and this is a problem - things will have to be dire before he and his wife uproot. Telecommuting might be a possible compromise position for me, but this requires a high-tech Atlantis.

    I will have no problem in bringing valuable skills: My enthusiasm is nigh boundless. (I am also a Medical Technologist (ASCP), geek,...and I have this really nice piece of software I can bring with me as my AS dowry...) My current strategy is to Bug-In, make provisions as I may to come through the likely crisis in decent shape, and try to fight for freedom. It is not impossible to win against a country - especially when you are actually fighting 'for' the country...and there are still many people who value freedom.

    Jan, takes the gloves off

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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
      I have a friend who will join us in Atlantis who will gladly be your partner and likely is qualified. Even though he is not in our virtual community, he agrees with me on >> 90% and is the heir to a well-diversified medical products company.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
      Check out http://www.galtsgulchonline.com.
      As for the medical technology, my wife who is a nurse will be looking for a job in your clinic.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 6 years, 8 months ago
        One of the good things about the Gulch, from my POV, is that there will not be restrictions on the medical testing that people can order on themselves, nor the medications that they can self-prescribe. We medical professionals can be advisers instead of gatekeepers. I think that your wife will revel in that as well. (Many nurses know more about patients than the doctors do.) She would be welcome to pull along side me in a medical endeavor...I suspect that we would be pulling in the same direction.

        (Your link just took me to your gulch page - was there something in particular you wanted to point out to me there?)

        Jan
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  • Posted by johnmahler 6 years, 8 months ago
    I'm a "nobody" in any consideration. That's my only credential. That said, I have always had a major disagreement with Ayn Rand in her novel "Atlas Shrugged". I do not think any true patriotic American would desert his country to "Galt's Gulch". It makes me feel good to think it is possible, but I know my country, right or wrong is still FIRST my country. Right now, as many have aptly said, "Atlas Shrugged" has become reality, no longer fiction. Yet Libertarians, Tea Party coalition, and independents aren't running away to any such gulch. There are currently 35% able bodied citizens receiving long term government assistance / largesse. Racial hatred is pumping as hard as the Left can pull the handle on the hate pump. The economy is in shambles, because all redistributed funds are borrowed from China, including foreign aid and military aid to "switch sides" allies. Allies, who switch sides depending on who we cyclically call "enemy" in all our foreign wars. The Constitution to an oil man president is "just a God damned piece of paper" which is completely ignored by the unilateral president Pen-n-Phone. Our representational republican government has been usurped by Congress created agencies. Indeterminate detention, Affordable Care Act, and the Patriot Act have sealed the FED defined "Tribute Slave", corporate asset (chattel citizen), away from the self rule bequeathed all who call themselves American citizens. Deceased is the individual sovereign citizen; as defined by the Founding Fathers in the pre-1913 Constitution. Our situation is worse now than when the War for Independence was fought and won. Not many of Washington's troops went home before the British were defeated. I think it is un-American to run away to a utopian mythical Galt's Gulch. I hate war as much as our Founding Fathers. Read the Declaration of Independence again. The Declaration of Independence in excerpt:"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." There is no mention in any of the Founding Father documents, including news papers, the Federalist / Anti-Federalist papers, citing surrender to tyrannical oppression! Our Founding Fathers, Patriots, citizen soldiers, gave everything, wealth, health, life that America should exist; a beacon of freedom for all generations as long as they stand and fight for it. President Reagan reminded us freedom is not inherited in the blood stream. Federalist termites have long eaten away at the roots of America starting with the banking institution and now fattened and bloated thereby the Leviathan monster has coiled itself about the states and crushed them so they believe only retreat solves their issues as it dies for want of tribute. The irony remains, there is nowhere to which they may retreat. The aristocrats of Rome retreated to the countryside and the north at the fall of Rome. Thereon followed the five-hundred years of the Dark Ages. If war is to be avoided in retaking our country, FED fractional reserve banking and income taxation must end. Sadly, my bones ache with the certainty only war will accomplish that because Congress is no longer a place of honorable service but has been reduced to the status of a "federal job".
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    • Posted by BaritoneGary 6 years, 8 months ago
      Please, just think about it and consider Texas. Texas. The only state that can secede on it's own legislative approval. If like minded folks start affecting the state policies, and implementing a logical systematic elimination of profuse entitlements, we can show the world what freedom is!
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      • Posted by $ johnrobert2 6 years, 8 months ago
        We would first have to break the suction of entitlement mouth to government teat. Course, with a robust oil & gas industry, farmers not on subsidy for not producing and a work force that has no unending excuse not to work. There are possibilities. However, we would also have to bust the cartels operating out of Mexico and that would take some doing.
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    • Posted by sharizona 6 years, 8 months ago
      I also know how hard it is to consider leaving this great country. However, it really isn't any longer the country I have grown up in and fallen in love with. I first read Atlas Shrugged 50 years ago at the age of 19. Since that time have re-read it 9 more times. Each time more has come to fruition as she predicted. Breaks my heart but our country probably can't be saved at this point. Many are waking up to the falling but too little too late. Being in this Gulch I have come to see that my family and I are not alone in our feeling about what is happening. But Atlas shrugged some time go. Not to say it is a done deal, but chances are getting slimmer by the day. I believe we most likely will fall and will need like-minded, freedom-loving folks such as the Gulch to re-build this great country. If the Founders did it, we can do it. We have to do it.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
      Nice rant on the current situation, johnmahler. The Founding Fathers and their recent ancestors had just left to what they considered that era's best opportunity for Galt's Gulch. In the end they had to fight a protracted war in order to obtain liberty.

      I would agree that it is un-American to run away to a utopian mythical Galt's Gulch, but America ceased being America at some point in this millennium. My country left me first.
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    • Posted by CarolSeer2014 6 years, 8 months ago
      You sound as angry as I am. I believe that any people, the American revolutionaries, the American colonists, that fought that long and that hard for their, and our, freedom, shouldn't be afraid of losing it!
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
        Agreed, but the question is how to preserve, or obtain, such liberty. The Founders had much to overcome within their own population and with regard to the British military. I think we have an even greater tyranny to overthrow.
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        • Posted by $ johnrobert2 6 years, 8 months ago
          A greater tyranny and much closer to home. The tyranny of those times was an ocean away and longer lines of communication. Now the tyrants are here, have instantaneous communication and pervasive oversight of our daily lives. It's time to be gone.
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  • Posted by katrinam41 6 years, 8 months ago
    A. 60 but I think I may be a bit optimistic at this point.

    B. 75 and I hope I'm underestimating!

    C. I could leave right now, no problems except to figure out how to get medications without a doc and stuck with Medicare... I really hope we won't have to shrug, and with this forum available to me, it's easier to plan and not have to jump quite so fast.
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  • Posted by BJ_Cassese 6 years, 8 months ago
    A) U.S. (3) Government largess is even bigger than Ayn had envisioned and I think before a collapse can happen (which is a sad necessity in order to rebuild), a pointless civil war will occur first.
    B) 65... IF it's either large enough or their are enough similar sites with people capable and willing to rebuild
    C) 65. If presented with a plausible option, or I can figure it out, my wife and I are ready to go. We've positioned ourselves in the last 2 years for such an opportunity.
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  • Posted by ISank 6 years, 8 months ago
    a) a pure return to libertarian ideals in the USA, or Hawaii leaves the union and is founded on libertarian ideals. Neither likely eh? 15?

    b) lanai is where I'll eventually move to and I'm already pushing a get maui cops off Lanai campaign. I'm not banking everything on that, it's just home base. I will either live in an RV or a boat and continuously roam. If Lanai were to end up as Atlantis, maybe I'd stay home more. 50

    c) no level of hope, when I shrug, I will wander. 0
    Edited to add #'s
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
      If Hawaii were to leave the union, Lanai would certainly be an option.
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      • Posted by $ winterwind 6 years, 8 months ago
        Jbrenner - I thought that Hawaii is very unfriendly to firearms? No, actually, to the humans, not yet to the inanimate objects themselves......just wait.
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        • Posted by ISank 6 years, 8 months ago
          He heh funny. I think gun ownership is pretty high on the outer islands. They want all handguns registered so if I pick one up while on the mainland, HPD wants me to tell them. There is a conceal permit but HPD will never approve one. Magazines have to be fairly small like 10 I think.

          Lanai has way too many deer so residents can hunt every day if they want, and you hunt with a rifle, dang shotguns got no range. Game warden goes out at night and knocks a few off, then just gives to who ever. My father in law is on the short list so every once in a while we wake up to deer hanging in the garage.
          Love the cruise ship idea, after working on boats for 16 years, I love chilling on a cruise.
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
          If Hawaii were to leave the union, a lot of things might change. With one owner of an island, maybe ... , but I doubt it, too.
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          • Posted by IndianaGary 6 years, 8 months ago
            If Hawaii left the union, it would be on its own and a target of the Japanese, Chinese, Philippines; take your pick. The looters would salivate. We would need a battle group just to keep from being overrun. That's if the US "allowed" the secession without the military intervening. Look what happened when the South seceded.
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  • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
    I have heard sender47 describe Venezuela. I would put that at about a 1 or 2 out of 100 right now. I would definitely leave if things got that bad.
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  • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
    A) Probably a 30 for the US, although probably a 70 for exactly where I'm at. I have a spot in paradise.

    B) Probably only a 60 for a physical Atlantis, simply because it would take long enough and be expensive enough to build Atlantis that I wouldn't have that much time to do more than retire once it is built.

    C) The US would have to get down to a 10 on a scale of 0 to 100 for me to leave. At that point, even my local paradise would drop from a 70 to a 30.
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    • Posted by khalling 6 years, 8 months ago
      You do not have a "spot in paradise" right now. You are currently in a position of the government taking 60% of all of your earnings. If you lived abroad, that could reduce significantly. If that were reduced 90%, what could you do with that money? before you determine the value of an Atlantis, you must realistically determine the value of US to you, rationally.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
        Right now all levels of government are only taking about 40% of my earnings. I am not quite in the top tax bracket. Florida has no income tax, and my property taxes are very low. Florida has a homestead exemption such that your assessed value can only go up by a max of 3% per year. Consequently my house that could sell at $315 K (house next door just sold for $307 K last week) is assessed at only $220 K. I pay only $3000 in property taxes per year. If government were taking 60% as it does if one lives in California or NY, I would have left those places. I have a house that is completely paid off, with a pool and weather that is comfortable enough to play golf at least part of the day at least 300 days per year. I have a place to work where my students love me, and respectable, but not high, compensation. The only real annoyance is the political attack ad robocalls from Washington for an election for our county commissioner - five this weekend for Tuesday's primary.
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        • Posted by khalling 6 years, 8 months ago
          the 60% includes cost of regulations and devaluation of currency. there are wonderful students all over the world. Florida is very gorgeous and warm. it is a a nice spring board...until the EPA knocks on your door regarding your pool....
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 8 months ago
        "You do not have a "spot in paradise" right now."
        As human history goes, the US at this time is place/time of phenomenal opportunity. Many development tools are FREE. Many marketing tools are FREE. Tools to sell products/services way down The Long Tail that would never justify shelf space are FREE. Taxes are high, but could be worse in other developed countries and other times in 20th Century US. There's a spirit of entrepreneurship and innovation. The gov't is stable at the moment, and as human institutions go, does a good job of enforcing laws and contracts without graft.

        Things could we *WAY* better. In a hundred years, people will hopefully be shocked at the amount of taxes, graft, and rent seeking we tolerated. It won't happen without hard work.
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        • Posted by khalling 6 years, 8 months ago
          the cg propaganda train. we have MORE regulation, MORE taxes, MORE cronyism, LESS property right protection than any time in US history. what are you smokin today...
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
            "the cg propaganda train"
            It absurd to think someone's secretly promoting the ills of gov't and society, esp if his method of promoting them is to admit how things have improved.

            If I told you things were miserable, hopeless, and I made an ass of myself today in public carrying on about it to strangers, suddenly I'd be doing something to fight the problems?

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            • Posted by khalling 6 years, 7 months ago
              You have no macro evidence for "things are improving." yet you continually say that. Is your evidence the stock market? You are aware that the pumping of monopoly money travels through the stock market first, right? the debt is at the highest levels it has ever been? record numbers of people getting assistance. the median family income is still lower than it was AFTER the recession ended. anyone who is serious, knows the GDP and inflation numbers are blatantly manipulated. 25% of homes are under foreclosure. Cite actual numbers to back up your statements.
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              • -1
                Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                Look up the numbers for almost anything undesirable in human history: domestic violence, chance of dying young of a disease, the cost of getting your opinion published, the cost of going to a library to look up facts, median income, chance of being a murder victim, freedom from being judged by a group identity, ability to travel, rejection of cruelty (animal cruelty, jokes about rape or violence), amount of living space per person, # of people solving their problems by dueling, output per hour worked, the difference in technology and opportunities from one generation to the next.

                I reject the vague comment about monopoly money and anything that suggests there's no objective way to value a business based on its financials, industry, management team, etc

                Valuing a businesses is important but trivial compared to the value of the progress humankind. At least for the moment, a lot of that progress happens in the US. People move fast and break things here. Facebook and Google were started here, and they've revolutionized the whole world of marketing, i.e. helping producers and consumers find one another.
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                • Posted by khalling 6 years, 7 months ago
                  *I reject the vague comment about monopoly money*
                  GODS HAIRY BALLS
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                    I consider the notion that you can't work out a valuation for a business b/c their customers and vendors trade in USDs to be patently absurd.
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                    • Posted by khalling 6 years, 7 months ago
                      well we are doing it every day as the value in our bank accounts goes down. here's a test. buy beef today. note the price. buy beef in 2 weeks. note the price. the cereal your kids are eating? note the ounces in the general size box you purchase. in 6 months let's do it again. did the size of the general box you purchase go do down in ounces as the price increased? toilet paper is another staple which changes all the time. who is doing the shopping in your house? your produce has gone up 30% in the last year. it's not just the california central valley drought. pay attention!
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                        "note the price. "
                        Right, but we're valuing businesses. So we have to note the price they charge and not the prices they pay. We're looking for profit with respect to overall prices.

                        Along with noticing how much the grocer charges me, I also need to notice the mechanic, my employees, and what rate *my wife and I are able to bill* without loosing clients. It's not just about other people's prices.

                        The notion that people would buy businesses without paying attention to the basics is silly. Of course you look at revenue, expenses, and profits. You look at the value of the assets the business has b/c it's those assets plus their secret sauce (or so called "unfair advantage) that generate profit, and you use profit and growth in profit to work out a valuation. I'm not an expert in this, but I know enough to know there are good models to work out the value of a business.
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                • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                  While a lot of things are better than they were in this generation than > 50 years ago, the monopoly money argument is valid. The government is making up $80 billion, or $80000 million per MONTH out of thin air. If you divide that by 330 million people, that is $250 per person per month that is just being made up. It is like hitting "free parking" in the bastardized version of Monopoly.
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                  • -1
                    Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                    "the monopoly money argument is valid"
                    The monopoly is either a vague comment, a red herring, or an argument that I completely miss. I don't see any argument whatsoever. It's throwing up our hands and saying we cannot value a business b/c it deals in some unstable currency, which is the reserve currency of the world. It's nonsense. I don't even understand enough of what's being said to refute it. It sounds like a case of psychological depression expressed through a business claim. It may be something to complicated to express in a paragraph.
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                    • Posted by BaritoneGary 6 years, 7 months ago
                      Be safe. Store up your surplus productivity in gold and silver. You're correct! It makes no sense! Keynes made no sense, yet every government in the world adopted his philosophy. Ludwig von Mises, Hajek and all the logical economists were thrown out with the bathwater. Amazing.
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                      • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                        Governments adopted his philosophy because it was logical for them to do so. Looters have no self-interest in preserving their citizens' money. The goal of looters is to loot our money, and Keynesian maleconomics is how they accomplish this goal.
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                    • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                      We can value money in an unstable currency and have been for a long time. That doesn't mean that we have to like it or approve of it.

                      Circuit Guy, please read The Creature from Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin so that you learn how the Federal Reserve system works (for the looters and borrowers and against producers and savers).

                      There will soon be a time when the dollar is no longer the reserve currency. That time is coming soon. When it does, oh s***!
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                        "The Creature from Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin so that you learn how the Federal Reserve system works"
                        I think I know the basics from my one undergrad economics course, but I just requested the book from the library.
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                        • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                          Most economics courses are taught by Keynesians, all of whom buy totally into a Federal Reserve system that seeks to enslave individuals and entire countries in debt by loaning them money literally made out of thin air and then having the nerve to charge interest on money that does not exist before it is lent to you.
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                          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                            Yes. I know something about the Austrian school and more about the Keynesian school.

                            It sounds like you're saying you don't like the national bank buying debt instruments to expand the money supply. I'm fine with their free market operations to expand the money supply, but I don't like how the system is designed to be awash in debt. The theory is the financial institutions allocate capital to worthy projects via instruments of debt and equity, but it seems like a lot of debt is consumer debt in which consumers pay to have something a little earlier. You'd probably say they make that decision b/c they trust the national bank will expand the money supply in hard times, making the amt they need to pay back less; so with that "Federal Reserve put option" in place, they feel justified taking more risk. I'm not sure to what extent this happens, but it's what I like least about our monetary system. I think the biggest problem is people don't price risk well, but I don't know how much monetary policy is to blame.
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                            • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                              The Federal Reserve was ostensibly put into place to "stabilize the market". It has created fairly consistent boom/bust cycles ever since precisely because the setting of controls over the debt market cannnot possibly be done by individuals or a cabal better than it can be done by the market. When a society has $17+ trillion in debt officially ($50000 per person) and over $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities (> $300000/person), by all reason interest rates ought to be sky high. Do you remember 18% interest rates on home loans in the late 1970s? That is where we ought to be now, if not higher. Instead we are paying the banks right now to hold our money (fees > interest rates). Saving is overtly penalized in this system. It is a looters' paradise and a producer's nightmare. Have you ever considered why AS characters insisted on being paid in Au? It is because the same amount of Au necessary to buy a suit 100 years ago buys the same suit now. Inflation is a cruel master.
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                              • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                                Thanks for this detailed reply. We're getting outside my knowledge, but I'll answer each claim.
                                " It has created fairly consistent boom/bust cycles"
                                We had a major bust centered on the railroad industry in the late 19th Century. History is full of speculative manias. I'm not knowledgeable about whether the Fed Reserve has made that better or worse.
                                "When a society has $17+ trillion in debt officially ($50000 per person) and over $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities (> $300000/person), by all reason interest rates ought to be sky high. "
                                It won't last forever. We should fix this before it's a crisis. Right now we appear to be waiting for trouble; then we'll fix it.-- bad fiscal policy.
                                "Have you ever considered why AS characters insisted on being paid in Au? It is because the same amount of Au necessary to buy a suit 100 years ago buys the same suit now. "
                                I agree with this, but Au is a less predictable medium of exchange than the USD-- huge swings based on supply and demand. If I had a need to store value for 100 years and I were not allowed to have a trustee tinker with it, i.e. I literally had to bury it and leave it untouchd for 100 years, Au would be my first choice. I could buy 1oz for $1300 and know there will be roughly $300 - $3000 USD2014 there when they dig it up in 2114. If I were allowed to manage it in a conservative portfolio, I could turn it into roughly a half million USD2014 in 100 years.

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                        • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                          In Master Yoda inflection, it is time to unlearn what you have learned. Hmmm. That economics book you learned from was full of excrement. Learn from some of the Austrian economists.
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                        "There will soon be a time when the dollar is no longer the reserve currency. That time is coming soon. When it does, oh s***!"
                        It will be like when UK went from empire to ex-empire. In other words, US will still be a thriving place, but just not host the reserve currency of the world.
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                        • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                          Perhaps, but it was the dollar that propped up the British pound for a very long time. Both the dollar and the euro are about to take a massive tumble when the Middle Easterners and particularly the Chinese no longer accept the dollar as the reserve currency. The Chinese economy is already as big as ours. Are you looking forward to trading in yuan yet? By 2030, the dollar's value will be at a "new normal". The British pound is not worth what it used to be either.
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                          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                            "Are you looking forward to trading in yuan yet? "
                            I like making things that serve other people's needs, in exchange for something I want. I don't care at all whether it's the yuan. By 2030 it will probably be something very different from what I use today. All the value is in how you serve people. What you trade doesn't matter.
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                            • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                              By your money standards, you will have to keep producing your products until the day you die because whatever dollars you "accumulated" in trading value for value will be worth so much less by the time you make your products in 2030. For one to be able to advance oneself toward either fiscal retirement or toward business domination, one's assets must be capable of being not only preserved but advancing over inflation. Regardless of what the government says about inflation, real inflation right now is about 7%, which is pretty close to what one can get traditionally in "risky" investments like stocks. When stocks look like they are in a bubble, then there is lilttle left, this is a major problem. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. Right now the US dollar is fraudulently being propped up, and because A = A, the looters are down to their last tricks to keep the illusion of wealth. Sooner or later, seniors will demand more return on investment for their nest eggs. When that happens, watch the skyrocketing debt. We won't turn into Zimbabwe, but by all rights, we should.
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                              • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                                "By your money standards, you will have to keep producing your products until the day you die because whatever dollars you "accumulated" in trading value for value will be worth so much less by the time you make your products in 2030."
                                Absolutely not. Businesses have value. Real estate has value. Consumer durables have value, but they depreciate. Capital equipment has value, but it depreciates. Currencies have value, but they depreciate. Consumer durables, capital equipment, and currencies are not bad. You need them for their intended purposes. They're not meant to be stores of value.
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                                • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                                  What is meant to be a store of value? That is what you need to be able to retire. The dollar used to be a better store of value than other countries' currencies. That is why the dollar rose to pre-eminence amongst currencies.
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                                  • CircuitGuy replied 6 years, 7 months ago
                          • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                            And George Soros who manipulated to bring down the British pound is now endeavoring the greatest coup of his career, the takedown of the dollar.
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                            • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                              "And George Soros who manipulated to bring down the British pound is now endeavoring the greatest coup of his career, the takedown of the dollar. "
                              If it's that tenuous that one person can change it, maybe it should be worth less than it is. A buck will buy me 60 capacitors on cut tape. Maybe in a few years it will buy me 10. This may be a big deal for people in the monetary policy world, but I don't care. A business that generates $100k in profit and is worth $500k is the same to me as one in 2030 that generates 500 e-pesos and is worth 2.5 kilo-e-pesos, or whatever we're using in 16 years.
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                              • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
                                The dollar should be worth less than it is right now. In fact, the currencies of the entire world should be worth less than they are. Look at the national debts around the world. Those governments have no intention of ever repaying. If either we as individuals or as company owners had that debt ratio, we would be bankrupt, and our stocks would be worthless. However, because countries have the ability to generate money out of thin air (inflate their way out of debt), the people who ultimately pay that price are the people who try to save those currencies.
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                                • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
                                  Put in terms that relate to me, an hour of engineering service costs around $100. An hour of legal service costs $250. This unhealthful burrito I'm eating cost $2.50. My shares of AAPL earn $6/yr and cost $100 apiece. You're saying these numbers will soon be $200, $500, $5, $12/yr, and $200 respectively.

                                  Every year I go into Quickbooks and select "Items" to update prices. It's very easy. I also go into ezPaycheck and update people pay-- very easy compared to 940,941, SUTA, Workers Comp, etc. Taco Bell updates their menu with new styles and flavors, so it's not a huge onus on them.

                                  It's much much harder to keep track of the fact that the brits call mm "mils", while to me that means "thousandths of an inch." But engineers make up units for fun: 5 mils = 0.25mm = 1 bee's dick = 5 gnat's asses. I see nothing hard about fluctuating prices.
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        • Posted by hrymzk 6 years, 8 months ago

          Circuit Guy
          Indeed, the US is still the best.
          With more energy independence happening, financially the US will get better. If the pols don't expropriate. The whole hydraulic fracturing phemon is one more example of US technical excellence.
          The issue is not to abandon the US. The issue is if enough smart people get together to make it better.
          Harry M

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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 8 months ago
            With hydraulic fracturing, the US is succeeding despite the expropriation of the pols ... for now.
            America is no longer a republic, and the moochers who elect their looter masters/pimps outnumber us badly. Abandoning the US is on the table given that the voters doubled down on Obama crony socialism.
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  • Posted by Matcha 6 years, 8 months ago
    I left. I think because I loved my country so much it was easier to leave than stay and watch the decline of freedom. I love where I am but I am willing to leave here if the government gets crazy. We have two locations in our new country. The funny thing is that in one location the entire community left their countries for the same reason. There is only one other American. Spain, Holland, Sweden and Ireland all have people there. I think some people won't mind the change and loss of freedom in America. I just couldn't live
    with it. It took a lot of effort to make the move but I have no regrets. Every day here is fun. I didn't want to live in a third world country. You have to be realistic about how you want to live. We rent a small city apartment and manage a beautiful farm.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
      It's nice to meet you, Matcha. Does your area still accept expatriates? For example, New Zealand did, but now it has become much more difficult, albeit possible, to immigrate.
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  • Posted by jimslag 6 years, 8 months ago
    Well, everyone has different situations. My own is that my parents moved to Belize back in February, so I have an out. It can flown to in a couple of hours or you can take your chances and drive through the "badlands" of the US/Mexico border in 3 days. The other thing I figure is with Obummer bringing all the Mexicans and Guatemalans and Hondurans to the US, those countries must be getting pretty unpopulated. So for the survey:
    A:) 15 - US-New Mexico. Pretty far away from Mordor and most land in my area is state owned, not federal. Drops to 0 if Hilliary is elected.
    B:) 75 - I would go for distributed, if all together, you would eventually get close to what we have now. Small communities are better.
    C:) 10 - Little hope, chaos will come quickly and it will not be pretty.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 8 months ago
    A) US - Hope that the principles of the original Founders can be re-established? 90. Hope that that will happen BEFORE the US economy does a death spiral? 2

    B) Is it the place or the philosophy that matters most?

    C) I think that there is one major thing to think about when situating Atlantis: power. Rand recognized it (briefly), but it is still the biggest concern. Without energy, there is no heat for houses and no fire for the forge. While the concept of Atlantis is tantalizing, I'd make sure that there is power first and foremost. The cart is important, but secondary to the horse.
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  • Posted by Tsul-Kalu 6 years, 8 months ago
    Hope for my current country? USA very little due to the non ethics of those in control / or who assume control of this nation, economy, education systems and media. All seem to be self centered, greedy, and drones. Morality is lacking on all levels, however there is hope. I see in the average person, and those who have real dreams, and seek as best they can to fulfill those dreams regardless of the obsticals placed before them by the Feds regulations, or society, or income levels, or health issues. Many still strive for the Dream of personal success that leads to assisting others succeed as they go from an idea to production to success personally or as a business, and by doing so trickle down economics works. So would I leave? If there was a place set up with like minded common sense hard workers and thinkers, maybe. I am a fighter and still at this time strive to achieve my dreams, I would like to assist others if possible in the future, and with a hope of restoring this country some day. However I see on the horizon, much of what was writen in Atlas Shrugs, some ways identical or even beyond it. When the time comes and the chains of stupidity by the politics, or super corps in bed with them seek to stop all people from success, then the nation / world will implode worse than Greece did. Then like minded folks will get together and weather out the storm that will take years to finalize, but then in time we shall rebuild the Earth and start over with those who understand what makes the engine of society, nations, families, work. And we shall start over. I think at this time there will be by natural causes or migrations of people to what some call Atlantis others Zion or what ever you name it, it will be places of safety and production during the dark times soon to come and from them we shall see the rebirth take place. Light and truth always has in the end conquered darkness, and so it shall. History does repeat. Good luck, work hard and smart and prepare the best you can. That is what I am doing, and yet I shall strive to publish the 1 novel of a 5 part series and hope the world likes them, even though it seems the world is on fire an some say why bother, we may not be around to read book 4 or 5, I say Dream Big, plan with common sense and reality and work hard.
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  • Posted by BJ_Cassese 6 years, 8 months ago
    While it's very interesting to engage each other here in the virtual gulch, any realistic possibility would require meticulous recruiting. Having a collection of like thinking individuals is nice, but productive people are the key.
    *(I am NOT impugning anyone's intellect, ability or commitment. We just don't know each other and the quality of the habitants of Atlantis would determine any level of success possible)
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
    Among those who want a new start in a Gulch, many of them would find that some of what made them miserable, angry, and depressed was actually inside them, and they'd find it follows them to the Gulch. It's one issue for the Gulch. People are of course free to be depressed, but at first there needs to be critical mass of people getting stuff done to make the Gulch sustainable.
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