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I'm having a moral crisis

Posted by LennoxStudios 5 years, 7 months ago to Ask the Gulch
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I am having a crisis of sorts. I can't be certain of how this will turn people's opinion of me, but if answers come at the expense of reputation so be it. Everywhere I read, everywhere I look, every person I look up to, says Objectivism is greedy, that its wrong, that its an extreme, that the only people who use objectivism is the people who abuse its philosophies as a means of breaking another man's back. And this stress is killing me, this tear. Maybe it makes me not a true woman of reason, I don't care at this point. If it means my hair stops falling out (hyperbole), its worth it. I cannot take this guilt


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  • Posted by mia767ca 5 years, 7 months ago
    objectivism is the ONLY philosophy that respects the rights of individuals...it is the only truly BENEVOLENT philosophy...it is the only logical and reasonable philosophy...just the spark of it has helped ignite the first peaceful civilization in the history of the world...
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 5 years, 7 months ago
      Me dino helps meself by making sure I'm financially squared away before I'll help someone else.
      That always taken into consideration, of course I'll help out someone with a real need.
      But with due diligence and caution.
      There are too many con artists who want to rip me off these days.
      One technique manipulators use is to try to me dino feel bad.
      Paste coins to a donation request? Watch me dino pocket the coins and trash the rest.
      More than once I've kept a calculator. Have five such spurned bribes about the house.
      Nobody plays with me dino's head.
      I also get requests for money to save Trump from the Deep State or from being impeached.
      How is giving some senator or some group money supposed to save Trump from anything?
      Once heard Mark Levin say Trump can't get kicked out of office anyway.
      Slick Willie once got impeached. And so what? No Nixonesque waving from a helicopter for that Teflon Rapist.
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      • Posted by mia767ca 5 years, 7 months ago
        ok
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 5 years, 7 months ago
          Getting all of that small change,calculators, Indian dream catchers, calendars, address labels and assorted other stuff is proof that charities have passed my name and address around for being a giver.
          OK?
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          • Posted by mia767ca 5 years, 7 months ago
            some just called my wife's cell phone...then told her unless she paid an enormous sum, that he would f..k up her phone...it is an apple and is losing all of it's emails...unbelievable...what's next...

            of course, she should not have answered a number she did not recognize, but I can't say that and live...I never answer unless it is in my phone base...and only review messages that have been left...most of my phone calls are robo...
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            • Posted by $ allosaur 5 years, 7 months ago
              Coincidental!
              An hour ago I got a robot lady call from (caller ID) San Marcos, Kalifornia. I was told an arrest warrant has been issued against "your name and identity" (who ever says your name and identity?). I'm to call a given number before the warrant is submitted to authorities in my area. How about at least stating I'm in the Birmingham, Alabama, area? (The satellite city is Pleasant Grove).
              Now why would someone tip me off that I'm about to be arrested? Maybe they want my checking account number. Maybe I should toss in my social security number too.
              Maybe I should look back into my delete file so I may negotiates with these sloppy rip-off artists.
              Last time me dino was in Kalifornia was 1976 so I must have done something really bad.
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              • Posted by mia767ca 5 years, 7 months ago
                both of us...my brother and sister have received these calls...
                my girlfriend's apple phone and computer are ok so far....

                when I first got into florida (25 years ago), I applied to rent a house for 12 months...there were 3 arrest warrants out for a John H Kelly in Ft Lauderdale...we had to get down to my social security # until I was eliminated...never came across the other guy...
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                • Posted by $ allosaur 5 years, 7 months ago
                  Me dino has been phoned that I won Publishers Clearing House three whole times and asked to give up my checking account number so I may receive my fabulous fortune, the representative of the US government wanted to give me a million plus something of pooled surplus prize money plus~A BRAND NEW SPORTS CAR!~but first I had to send $499 to someone at a Walmart in Texas, a mean voice said he was from the IRS and, instead of getting ready the account numbers of all my assets as instructed, I laughed at the caller he said would call 20 minutes later and did, and I was to receive free knee braces as long as I gave up my SS number. This does not include scams received by email and snail mail. Much of that is forgotten but being told that sending someone money way back during the 70s would "unlock the secret of receiving UNTOLD RICHES" (printed just like that) kinda sticks in me dino's rusty memory banks.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 5 years, 7 months ago
    Why guilt?
    You earn your money. Its yours. No one is entitled to it. Unless you choose to give it away no one has the right to claim ownership but you. How much you make and how you save or spend your money is solely your discretion.

    Greed is someone else saying what you have is subject to THEIR direction.
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    • Posted by term2 5 years, 7 months ago
      I have a good answer to guilt. I dont DO guilt. If I know its morally wrong, I dont do it in the first place. If I think at the time its not morally wrong, then I refuse to accept guilt. If I do something I thought was morally right at the time, but realize later that it wasnt morally right, then I either try to undo what I do, or just dont do it again.

      People that want me to feel guilty just want to use that to get things from me they dont deserve
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      • Posted by skidance 5 years, 7 months ago
        In my late teens, after reading AS several times, I realized that those who attempt to make one feel guilty are trying to control you in some way. The proper response is to figuratively run the opposite direction. In other words, do not accept unearned guilt.
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        • Posted by term2 5 years, 7 months ago
          the liberals are great at creating guilt where none should be. They just want my life and my money. I get it. I pretty much run in the other direction mentally, and more and more- physically
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 5 years, 7 months ago
    People fail to understand what Rand's "selfishness" really means. I use the term: "Celfishness" which goes to the very core of Rand's philosophy at the cellular level. Every cell in your body that makes "You" is entirely responsible for it's own survival and once those needs are met...the value is passed on. (oxygen, nutrients etc from the blood stream).
    That is the nature of Human beings. Human beings, particularly Conscious ones, have a natural mutuality with others. That mutuality manifests itself through the sharing of abundance.
    If one sacrifices one's basic needs or desires necessary for happiness then one will not have the abundance to share, empathize or offer...just like every cell in your body.
    The sharing of abundance should rightfully be tempered with Reason when sharing abundance; will it be appreciated, is it a life or death situation, does the other seek a hand up or a hand out...etc, etc.
    Psychologist will tell you that if a person is constantly sacrificing their own needs for others, they will become unhappy and resentful... so a balance must be maintained in order to survive otherwise you will physically or emotionally die and there will be no happiness nor any abundance to share.

    Abundance and needs are different for everyone beyond the basics. Virtually every conscious human on the planet would share their food and go out of our way to do so if someone should visit at suppertime...I have never seen anyone not do this, we do this without thinking about it, It's Human nature at work here.

    One's abundance might be knowledge to be shared, food that can be shared, money, time or comfort; but at some point the one's you share with must learn to attend to their own survival... so the old adage: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a life time is a basic truth of life and one day they might teach another to fish.

    That's how I would school those that would knowingly or unknowingly make you feel this guilt by sharing this knowledge and wisdom.

    If that knowledge is heeded, appreciated and passed on then you have every right to silently reflect upon the value you shared. That is called: The Reflection of Values Created and is a personal and internal need we all have.
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  • Posted by Storo 5 years, 7 months ago
    Rand has always been called extreme, radical, and many other things. The people you are hearing actually know nothing about Objectivism. It’s your first and foremost responsibility - and also everyone else’s responsibility - is to take care of yourself. That’s not greed. That’s being responsible. Others who want to say you’re greedy and should take care of or otherwise support others are moochers. You need not break anyone’s back or lack empathy to take care of yourself first.
    Your life is YOURS! And nobody has a right to take it from you. Being the kind and sympathetic person I know you are (because otherwise you wouldn’t feel this way) you can help folks as much as you want as long as YOU want, and not because someone else says so. You do that voluntarily, but not to your own detriment, and not because you’re forced into it. And, you can keep your hair!!
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  • Posted by IAMGROOT 5 years, 7 months ago
    Ignore the haters. Objectivism is based on rational selfishness, which is not "greed" or being selfish at the expense of others. It's simply making the best decisions for yourself and being proud of your work and your accomplishments. These haters either don't understand Objectivism, or are deliberately trying to undermine it with these attacks. I see them too and it angers me. This is unearned guilt being foisted upon you. Shed it. =]
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  • Posted by EgoPriest 5 years, 7 months ago
    "Greed" is a package-deal used to attack those who pursue the object of their desire (whether rational or irrational) indiscriminately.

    My advice to you is to try to identify the specific source of your feelings of unearned guilt in your own past and work to uproot it...or look yourself in the mirror daily and repeat ten times:

    "Your life belongs to you!"

    (I also think joining my Galt Brigade would do you wonders, but that's entirely up to you).
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    • Posted by 5 years, 7 months ago
      I don't know what your Galt Brigade is, but id love to join it. And I must thank you. I cannot make the changes immiediatly, as all things take time. But seeing you, and the others that responded, reminds me I'm not alone.
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      • Posted by EgoPriest 5 years, 7 months ago
        I describe it in one of my recent posts (click on my name and select posts. Under the list, you'll see one with title John Galt Brigade: not an "official" group, any more than the Gulch in Atlas.

        If you can take the oath (which really caps off the last few paragraphs of Galt's great speech, or wait until you know more about the philosophy from Ayn Rand's non-fiction).

        As a "deductionist" you may also be interest in the short book Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, 2nd ed. (it covers the one area Galt doesn't go into: concept-formation).

        Another really important essay is "The Objectivist Ethics" in The Virtue of Selfishness which recaps less "dramatically" the Galt Speech.
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    • Posted by EgoPriest 5 years, 7 months ago
      Such "people" think they own you and, insofar as you feel guilty they do. As they sense you slipping out of their grasp, seeming happier or less interested in them, they'll attack the ideas releasing you in whatever terms they think might still resonate with you.
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  • Posted by Tiger77 5 years, 5 months ago
    Ask them if you should feel guilty for pursuing your own happiness- as in life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness- which everyone has a right to. It’s in the Declaration of Independence, Rand simply illustrated that one’s own happiness is the ultimate goal of objectivism. Ironically, ones happiness will vary from one to another subjectively & it is the subjective criticism that is interfering with your objectivism governed by your own subjective mind. Knowing this, I don’t think “objectivism” means what your critics think it means! There is nothing greedy about objectivism- seeking happiness- respecting other people’s rights to pursue the same. I’d consider it close cousins with utilitarianism which is choosing something that causes the most happiness and causes the least amount of suffering. Objectivism leaves out the suffering part and focuses on the happy- personally, it seems it’s not the term and the ideology behind it, but the question as to whether you or anyone else is worthy of such a pursuit or goal? My wife was the same- at one point she felt she didn’t deserve to be happy because of her past struggles. When you’re used to struggling, happiness can seem like an Erie sort of calm just waiting for the other foot to drop. When that calm comes, embrace it. People can see it and it reflects outwardly remarkably & people will want to know how you do it. It’s easier said than done, but in the end it begins with a decision to put the first foot forward- the other foot will follow and momentum builds from there. You’ve got this!
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  • Posted by nhtemplar 5 years, 7 months ago
    What other people “say” is often not a reflection of what they have discovered by virtue of their intellect or experience but rather what they been taught to say to confirm their loyalty to a group, ideology or theology. I would rather be true to myself then cipher, a member of the herd. But do not think you are alone or destined to be so. Others with your desire to be an individual, a fully thinking self aware human being will find you. Galt’s Gulch is more then a metaphor. You will find us. We will find you.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 5 years, 7 months ago
    Dismissing the word of other people, "greed" is the first step to sanity. Self interest is what they can't understand, but is the backbone of all life, anything less diminishes you and those around you.You do your best for what is best for you, and you encourage others to find that same situation. Only then can people be free and part of the machine that drives a successful world.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 5 years, 7 months ago
    You feel "stress" because other people trash and misrepresent Objectivism? While Objectivism is greedy, that does not make it wrong. You're supposed to be greedy for what you can produce yourself, not to covet your neighbor's goods and want to steal them.It is not aggressive and intending to "break another man's back", to want to be free and to produce. You are not supposed to take what belongs to another without his consent. Do you remember Hank Rearden's speech when he is put on "trial" (it doesn't really amount to much of a trial), where he says, "I work for nothing but my own profit. l earn it."? And where he describes how he rose in the world, all his dealings with other men, bosses, customers, and his own employees, being by their own voluntary consent? Are you really sure that you have understood Objectivism so far?
    What "guilt" do you feel? Have you allowed those other people, including "every person ]you] look up to" to infect you with an unearned guilt?And what kind of people have you been looking up to?--
    It is very common for Objectivism to be misrepresented in this way, it is nothing new. Please don't cave in to it. Don't let it overcome you. I think we all have heard the kind of stuff that people have been throwing at you. You can click in here and see that there are people who know better than that. (I do not want a wounded sister to allow herself to be overcome).
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  • Posted by chad 5 years, 7 months ago
    Greed is defined as having a desire to have more of something than is needed. Which in turn silently asks the question; who determines what is more than needed. In the Altruistic philosophy the individual is never allowed to answer this question it is determined by the collective who have the desire to possess what you have by taking it from you not by creating it for themselves. If you are having trouble because you are alone get used to it. Very few actually come to believe in the value of objectivism and liberty. Don't compromise in order to have company, you will be more alone. They may want to talk with you but what they (the altruists) really want is permission to destroy you in order to take what you have and to make you the guilty one with their accusations that your philosophy is unfair because it requires people to be responsible for themselves. When people pursue their selfish interests is when even the unappreciative group benefits the most. More tools are invented, more supplies produced and even the slothful lead better lives because of it. Be yourself and I hope you find at least one other to share your thoughts and your chosen behavior with. It is not worthwhile to join the immoral to get approval from them.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 7 months ago
    This is the problem: "Everywhere I read, everywhere I look, every person I look up to, says Objectivism is greedy, that its wrong,..."

    Many people will apply a label to a philosophy, then declare that philosophy is evil. They offer no substantiation, no rationale - just their naked declarations that "Objectivism = greedy" and "greedy = evil" therefore "Objectivism = evil.

    Why do you believe them? Why does this cause you stress? It is no different than children calling, "Nyah, nyah, nyah." in a schoolyard. This may matter to another child, but we are not children. We may choose to require proof and logic and not just name calling.

    Jan, a true woman of reason
    (and I'll smash anyone who says I'm not)
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  • Posted by Herb7734 5 years, 7 months ago
    You have only one problem: You care about what others think about you. Here's the cure. Just repeat this mantra: "You obviously have me confused with someone who gives a shit." Just read the words. If you understand their meaning you know that your so-called friends have changed the entire premise and basic principles of objectivism. in order to accomodate their own fallacious reasoning. They may realize that objectivism shows up their shortcomings to a degree that causes them to be embarrassed.These are not people who you should care about.You'll find the ones who express an interest in you even if they're not sure why, but admire you as a person. That's what heroes are made of.
    ,
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  • Posted by strugatsky 5 years, 7 months ago
    The “guilt” is an emotional response. Replying with the rational is useless. You have to speak in the language of the conversation. Do point out to the accuser that they are, of course, not greedy in the least, and that they are working for free, right?
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 7 months ago
    All I have to say is that the charges leveled by the leftists are always more applicable to themselves than their opponents. Collectivists are greedy, wrong, extreme, and use their ideas to break another man's back.

    I have stopped listening to the cries of the leftists. Its all garbage and designed to emotionally manipulate. Its not even worth responding to. Just look at what the people want- and that tells you all. Watch what they do, not what they say
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  • Posted by jpellone 5 years, 7 months ago
    Businesses are in business because they provide a need or a want. Is a company that builds roads providing a need or a want? We all know the answer to that... Sure, they are in business to make money but the money would not be there if there was not a need or want. Greed in itself is a bad word. What would be someones motivation if they could not make money providing that need or want?

    Government intervention is the real problem. As one of the latest examples lets look at Obamacare. What has happened to the price of healthcare since it passed? It has gone up 2 to 3 times the price than before the government stepped in. Is there anything that has happened in America that did not go up when the government stepped in??? If you have an example I would like to know...
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  • Posted by AFT 5 years, 7 months ago
    Their morality is built on a foundation of emotions and irrationality.
    Your guilt is imagined just as much as their moral code.
    I don't feel guilty at not believing in Santa Clause, the Easter bunny, fairies or unicorns, regardless of whatever shame I "should" feel about rejecting those fairy tales.
    I agree they are nice and warm and fuzzy, but they simply do not exist.
    They do not feel any shame at extorting my productive life at the point of a gun for their selfish benefit because they are many and have based their group think in the morality of need.
    What about the morality of merit?
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  • Posted by Dobrien 5 years, 7 months ago
    Hi Faith,
    To me the thing critics of objectivism fail to address and conveniently leave out is Ethical .....in ethical self interest.
    They speak of selfishness at the expense of another. That is not and will never be done
    by a true objectivist simply put because that is unethical. When they say greedy ask them to explain what that means and why is it bad.
    Their answer will likely include some type of unethical behavior that they will denounce and attribute to Objectivist .Kindly point out to them the difference. Then ask them if they like sports or music or movies. Ask them if those stars they admire are greedy because they use an agent to get the maximum $ contract. If they don't genuinely discuss those points you should look down on them vs looking up to them. Be proud of your mind and self. Run don't walk from people who don't give you the respect you give them or deserve.
    The goal of life is to be happy. Be confident in who you are and what you want. Go for it and everyone else that inhibits you be damned. Become the person people look up to because you are special and loving the life you create. Respectfully , DOB
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 5 years, 7 months ago
      Great advice Dob...also, LS needs to know that She likely will be rejected on the facts, natures truths and reality because the post modern thinklessing poses that there are no facts, no truth and no reality; those things are just constructs of our civilization. They unknowingly seek a different dimension that most probably doesn't exist.
      So your posed questions to be asked are apt.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 7 months ago
      That is the problem I am facing. Ive been told it is wrong to believe in the power of the individual, and that if people can't find a way to do something (i.e. start a buissness), then no one should be forced to help them just because they want it.
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      • Posted by Dobrien 5 years, 7 months ago
        I am curious about your second sentence with regard to directives. You were told that it is wrong to believe in the power of the individual ( 1st part of the sentence) That is FALSEj. (2nd part) if people can't find a way to achieve ( my word) then no one should be forced to help them..........TRUE
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 5 years, 7 months ago
    There is a long story to preface this, but my wife and I once sent our oldest son to a homeless shelter (70 miles away) rather than accept him back into our home. It was a difficult decision, but not impossible. Our "selfish" desires to be "empty nesters" outweighed his "need" for personal comfort. The responses to our actions have largely been positive.

    I have a number of beliefs that I feel would get me stoned by the liberal bleeding hearts, out there. I...DON'T...CARE! I'm enjoying my life and to Hell with them.

    Take a close look at the faces of Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Maxine Waters and tell me that those people are ever happy. Then, look at the faces of conservatives and you have to wonder if anything every really bothers them.

    Our first responsibility is always to ourselves (just listen to an airline stewardess, when they explain the use of oxygen masks). You always look out for yourself, first. If it, then, gives you a good feeling to help others...do so. If you feel you're simply being taken advantage of, act accordingly and walk away with an absolutely clear conscience.
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  • Posted by Solver 5 years, 7 months ago
    Without greed we would just save and use what we feel we need, and if there were a harsh winter and everyone in the city starved because in reality they needed more, so be it. At least they were not greedy.
    /s
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