Is this a correct concept of, “Racism?”

Posted by  $  Solver 2 months ago to Philosophy
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(Racism) “is the idea that the racial group is the primary unit of reality, and its benefit, whatever that means, is the standard of value by reference to which one should choose his actions.”
-Charles Tew

An example that came up is actionable concern about the vast differences of IQ scores based on race.

I thought this would be a good topic in an Objectivist forum.
Ayn Rand had this to say about racism,
https://ari.aynrand.org/issues/cultur...


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  • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    The progressive concept of Race is a false one. There is no such thing as different races of the Human species, whether they be conscious humans or non-conscious humanoids.

    To base racial differences upon skin color, body shape, IQ or place of origin is pure nonsense. There are way too many other traits that are shared between all Humans...even the evil ones...sadly.

    I would think a different Racial entity, one that is sentient and aware of self, beyond it's own survival might be a Dolphin, Whale or Elephant...if in fact they fit the above definition.
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  • Posted by  $  DeangalvinFL 2 months ago
    I think the Tew concept in the post is missing a key element. As stated it is a concept better described as racial, not racist.

    To be racist would also have to include some fundamental belief that one race is superior to others OR that one race is inferior to others. Thus, justifying actions towards another group that keep them down, based on the people's race.

    Simply identifying with others that are of a similar race and background, aka culture, doesn't make you racist. One can be proud to be Japanese without hating Egyptians, etc.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    Racism is a manifistation of collectivism.. Attributing philosophical characteristics via inheritence, a long ago disproven theory that no longer has any place in modern thought.
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  • Posted by  $  Stormi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    In the US, having access to horrible US schools, blacks and Hispanics fall below the white population in IQ. Hispanics actually rate higher as a group than blacks. The school system is dumbing down all of them.
    Rand makes so much sense in her discussion of race, so true, so on the mark. The black commentators can't stand the solo thinking black, or they go nuts. Just as the crooked Senators judge Ms. Ford by all sexual assualt victims, as being true, also quite wrong. Logic just tells you the Senators in general have no logic.
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  • Posted by  $  blarman 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    Racism is a form of elitism and is a product of divorce from reality. It posits that a non-selected and immutable characteristic is in fact justification to treat another person as an inferior.

    I think that Martin Luther King, Jr. actually got one thing correct: that men should be judged based on the content of their character (what they do) rather than their appearance.
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  • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago in reply to this comment.
    The link to your reply is below...it didn't disappear... it just went where it wanted...laughing.

    It is a separate comment, 4th stand alone comment from the top and I replied, right underneath it.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 1 month, 3 weeks ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry accidentally hit reply.

    "Consciousness-(self introspection" would imply selves without introspection. At what age do those selves who (really can't use that word since they are not conscious, so not somebodies) are not conscious, gain introspection? Must be fairly late in life, I would guess. Also, do you consider self awareness as being consciousness?

    English more likely developed from some Anglo-
    Saxon dialect from the west German dialects which cannot be considered as English. Went to Old English, eventually to modern English with spelling locked up with the introduction of a dictionary.
    Much of the time English was written as it sounded to the speaker so words were spelled in many ways depending on the pronunciation of the locals.
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    • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
      The awareness of one's behavior happens usually around age 6 on average. For some, even earlier...but that doesn't mean it becomes a full time thing...there is always that battle between automatic behavior (temptations/no control) and controlled/aware behavior...it takes the will, practice and repetition to make it a full time thing and even then...the automatic bicameral brain can act up, especially if you have a lot on your mind. (note: the auto brain and the mind are two different things but the best outcomes happen when Both are used in a task employing specialization)

      There are many today that are not aware of their own behavior...take the leftest ridiculous outrages for instance...that is exactly what pagan, bicameral man acted like. (the fault in their own behavior/ the fear of their own incompetence, is your fault...for the pagan man, it was their gods punishment).

      But here is a serious note: Mental diseases like Schizophrenia and Psychopathy often manifest without a conscience,...accentually...0 self introspection and sees everything as an impediment to their own survival...that is all the self awareness they have. What is really scary about these global deletes, criminals and politicians is that they can learn to imitate us so as to avoid detection.
      If someone with one or both of the mental diseases has a conscience, awareness of one's own behavior they are likely harmless to others but more of a danger to themselves.

      That is what I saw when I started my research into the differences between us and came to the conclusion that it is Conscience...those that have and those that have not. Not only is that the only true division in human societies but also the main cause of the division in the first place...all else is superficial and superficially promoted by the have nots.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    I had just turned 15 when I saw that book (The Virtue of Selfishness) on a trading shelf of the library in Waynesboro. The deal was that if you put in a book of your own, you could take one away and keep it. I had long thought the same things about racism and the Civil Rights Bill, and it seemed that I was alone in the world. But I put the book I had in, and took this one away, and I got the best of the bargain. (Later there was a sign on that bookcase forbidding its use to people under 16).--It is interesting that Ayn Rand said that as society got more statist, the people got more racist.--What about that great "liberal", Franklin D. Roosevelt (who, by the way, came from a rich, upper-class familty, didn't he?). He was the one who signed that racist Executive order 9066, which consigned many free-born Americans to internment camps (prisons), on the basis on their (Japanese) ancestry.
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  • Posted by  $  jlc 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    What are the "vast differences in IQ scores" to which you allude? My most recent reading indicates that the differences exist, but that they are relatively small.

    Jan
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    • Posted by freedomforall 1 month, 3 weeks ago
      Depends on which "races" are being compared. The countries where most of the illegal immigrants are coming from have much lower average IQ's than US citizens.
      https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-coun...
      Stefan Molyneux did a youtube video with graphics on this specific issue:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcMd9...
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      • Posted by lrshultis 1 month, 3 weeks ago
        What in hell do average IQs have to do with anything other than to somehow show that you might be somehow superior to someone else. An average does not exist in reality, only in a mind where mathematics is created, and does not say anything about the individual elements which are averaged.
        Those who get out of a hell hole in order to sneak into the USA are not averages but individual human beings. In fact those who try to leave are probably high enough in IQ to be above the average. What is your IQ so that I can get some idea whether you are somehow superior to me or those whom I deal with. Should I decide that if your IQ is lower or higher than mine, that one of us is lesser than the other in some way.
        Would you all immigrants take an IQ test to be sure that they do not lower the average IQ of US citizens. It is interesting that different countries have different average IQs, but is completely irrelevant to anything but to the conditions in the country in which one develops one's self.
        The only thing that should be considered about immigration is whether it is legal or not, because raising or lowering of an average IQ for the USA says nothing about individuals living in the USA. The publication of the book "The Bell Curve" should have been enough about IQ differences to find some other average to worry about like average time it takes to eat a Big Mac or to urinate. Then we could decide that too much time was spent by some to do those activities and then do something to decrease the average time for USA citizens doing the activities.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    The human race, because of its conscious ability to conceptualize, Is a most complex species.Its ability to thrive even under the most difficult of conditions makes it one of the most successful species on Earth.One o the things which make it unique is its ability to be self aware, as a result to maintain volition.
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  • Posted by chad 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    Probably the only reason to look at people as groups is when you are determining the social desires driven by the culture they select for themselves, i.e. a gang, religion or governing body the group has chosen. The influence of the group can often determine the ideologies and the philosophy that the group will act on. Within that philosophy or group there will still be variances of the individual as each seeks the benefit he believes he will derive from an action. Unfortunately groups tend to be violent and driven by theft and sometimes relies on their moral rationalization of their behavior rather than intellectually and rationally engaging with reality. Making decisions for themselves (individuals) relies on responsibility for failure and ambition to achieve success by continuing to construct feasible actions. It is easier for the group (mob) to rely on the actions of others and steal and blame the group if an action is the incorrect one. The group is the individual waiting to be told what to do rather than deciding what to do which would then make him an identifiable individual.
    Ayn Rand was inspirational in her rational thinking and identifying that A is A no matter what the circumstance, color, or other inconsequential identifier.
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  • Posted by  $  allosaur 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    "Those who deny individual rights cannot be defenders of minorities." --Ayn Rand
    Well, hell's bells, that statement will not hack it with the PC thought police crowd.
    Same goes for lib mobs who are not mobs because "mob" never applies to lib mob behavior. Just ask Antifa.
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  • Posted by  $  dukem 1 month, 3 weeks ago
    I recall being in the eighth grade in a southern public school in a class on "social studies." The teacher inexplicably announced to the class that my IQ had been tested at 145. I have no idea why he did that other than to prompt me to study and work harder (I studied little in those days), but the impact on my relationship with others in the class was profound. I was shunned, made fun of, and was quite miserable the remainder of that year.
    So IQ in that case did make a difference, but at times in high school and college, I think my IQ was around 70, based on some of the stupid things I did and said. Some even continuing to this day.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 4 weeks ago
    The linked text is powerful. I don't have anything to add to it.

    " vast differences of IQ scores "
    IQ is just what we choose to put on the test and call IQ. Race is the physical attributes that we choose as criteria for race. Correlation between these two groups is compounding the issue that we shouldn't be dividing individuals into groups in the first place.

    Maybe the issue is racists wants to say race is real and their race is fundamentally superior. They imagine the IQ test as a measure of worth, and then they can scientifically conclude human value is bestowed more on their race. Those people should go do something they love and value in life and abandon dividing people into groups and putting the groups on scales of merit.
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    • Posted by  $  WilliamShipley 1 month, 4 weeks ago
      As Rand says, statistical measurements of a collection of people, whether accurate or not, tell nothing about an individual.

      IQ does measure something, whatever it is, can be repeatedly measured with a reasonable consistency. Unfortunately as Charles Murray found out with The Bell Curve, publishing statistics which show groups have different means can be hazardous.
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      • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
        IQ tests, not in total but for the most part, measure the amount of compartmentalized information in one's head...not to any great degree, (depending on the test format) the integration of that information.

        In the Army, I took a highly integrated IQ test and achieved a score of 138...whoopie do! On the average, it doesn't mean a whole lot other that the fact that I use my mind and am able to integrate information.

        An IQ test today would be tainted toward collectivism and all it's antilectual bull crap, those taking that test would likely score High but in a standard integrated test would probably score below 100.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
        I haven't read the book, but I recall the controversy. It seemed to me, not having read the book, that the whole issue is seeing people as groups rather than individuals.
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        • Posted by  $  WilliamShipley 1 month, 3 weeks ago
          Sometimes it is appropriate to look at people as groups -- for example when you are looking at population trends. The mistake is thinking that it tells you something about individuals.

          The Bell Curve was actually not about race. The main theses was that the shift in Universities from being essentially a place for the upper class to go to being one which aggressively sought out highly intelligent people was concentrating them into groups that would naturally meet and marry. They thought this could have serious consequences for the country as a whole. And maybe it has.

          They had a chapter on IQ and mentioned that the mean IQ of African Americans was below that of Whites which was below that of Asians. This caused the to be intensely vilified by those who insist that there is no difference between groups of people.
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          • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
            African Americans in the city states have not been taught or allowed to assimilate a whole lot of valuable information...therefore the test results are skewed by that environment.
            Same goes for any uncivilized country where the information level is low and only geared for raw survival.
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            • Posted by  $  1 month, 3 weeks ago
              That would mean that IQ can go up as an individual ages. If enough testing scientifically shows this, it invaildates the way IQ is measured.
              Sounds like more science is needed in this field.
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              • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                Agreed.

                A certain amount of compartmentalized information should always be measured but more important is how the individual can integrate that information should always be measured as well...that can be daunting when pressed for time in these tests.

                I do think that IQ measured integrally can rise with accumulated experiences and information as one ages...however, some areas of the test could suffer also because we don't use all of the information we learned in school for a good portion of our lives.
                For instance, I haven't used a lot of advanced mathematics in my life, I would likely fail the test on Algebra but would probably do better in History, chemistry, biology and psychology than I did in college.
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                • Posted by lrshultis 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                  How would you do with the relationship type problems. Seeing similarities between different objects or abstract pictures? With practice that can be learned. IQ has a lot to do with one's life experiences solving puzzles, learning vocabulary, etc.
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                  • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                    Something I always did well on and I suspect even better today.
                    As I remember, in grade school, there wasn't a whole lot of that (I was very good at the flat/folded object match ups)...but I was also hyperactive and did not have the patients for testing...I just wanted it to be over.

                    What were you good at Irshultis?
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                    • Posted by lrshultis 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                      In grade school I tried to be unseen. I liked science and taking things apart and reassembling them. I was unable to spell, probably due to flash cards and no phonics. Loved reading about and making rockets. Made a bazooka out of a riffle stock and a pipe and shot CO2 cartridges filled with a zinc and sulfur mixture. Didn't last very long. One day apparently the neighbor lady called the cops and one just came into the house and took it away. On IQ tests I was good at relational things like a series of diagrams and finding a diagram which would be next in order and in completing numerical sequences, and very poor at any vocabulary things. My thanks goes out to those who invented computer spell checkers.
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                      • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                        You must have been just a bit behind me (or the change happened in your area first)...I went through the Phonics/look see debauckal, I was good at English before the change, disgusted afterward.
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                        • Posted by lrshultis 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                          For me the look see flash card stuff started in about 1947. Didn't Rand write something about the Japanization of America similar to the teaching of seeing symbols as with the ideograms of the Japanese language. That would be OK for writing the Romanized version of Japanese adopted after the war where Japanese was fully phonetic in pronunciation as in the Japanese script alphabets hiragana and katakana with 46 base characters But English is not a phonetically pronounced language.
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                          • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                            Not consistently anyway...too many silent letters but still the best overall language; Most words, concepts and metaphors. A language made up of many...just like the American culture was supposed to be...one culture, made up of many.
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                            • Posted by lrshultis 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                              There are > 171000 current words not counting archaic words (about 30000) and most names of chemical compounds compounds (> 1000000).
                              Average native US speaker knows 20000 to 35000 words with 4 year olds knowing about 5000 words and 8 year olds knowing something like 10000 words. I do not recall having such a large vocabulary at such a young age.
                              Although I poorly studied the real languages German, Spanish, Russian, Danish, and French, I was more interested artificial languages for their grammars, Interlingua, Loglan, and Esperanto. I was more interested as to whether a language spoken has any effect on how people act. If I recall right, Loglan was created to test that. Loglan expresses exactly what is intended by all possible logical ways of expressing a thoughts.
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                              • Posted by LibertyBelle 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                                I know several foreign languages but I have not interest in learning or promotint Esperanto, Intelingua, or any other made-up language. A language, if it is spoken a lot, will naturally change over time.
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                              • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                                Problem with many languages is the lack of the ability to adopt concepts/words from other languages...not to mention the lack of metaphors.

                                Metaphors are considered very important in achieving awareness and cooperation of, both sides of the brain..ie Unicameral) therefore the attainment of Consciousness-(self introspection). [Julian Jaynes]
                                (Learned all that from those that continue his work).

                                English excels at those things.

                                Did you know that Germany originally spoke English?

                                I just wish we would spell the way words sound or say the way words are spelled. (get rid of all "silent" letters)
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                                • Posted by lrshultis 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                                  I wrote a long comment after accidentally hitting reply after one line. Tried to save it and then delete the one liner, but the long comment was disappeared. If I get time I will try another reply.
                                  Seems like if you write a reply and then a sub-reply to it, that deleting the first will delete the new reply also.
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                                  • Olduglycarl replied 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                                • Comment deleted.
                                  • Olduglycarl replied 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                                  • lrshultis replied 1 month, 3 weeks ago
          • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
            "which aggressively sought out highly intelligent people was concentrating them into groups that would naturally meet and marry."
            This sounds interesting. I wonder sometimes if more aspies meeting and marrying might be causing more autism.
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    • Posted by  $  DeangalvinFL 1 month, 4 weeks ago
      I agree with your points.
      .
      But facts are facts - they shouldn't be suppressed just because they are inconvenient. That is a very dangerous precedent.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
        Is someone suppressing facts? I honestly don't know the first thing about this. I imagine, though, if I were a researcher wanting to study certain physical traits vs ability to pass a test, I'd pick detached ear lobe and rolling tongue as my physical traits to avoid it being misconstrued as endorsing racial traits being tied to identity groups.
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        • Posted by  $  DeangalvinFL 1 month, 3 weeks ago
          I didn't say you were suppressing facts.

          However, many facts concerning racial trends are suppressed. The root cause could be cultural but nonetheless, to speak of any differences is dangerous in our current cultural environment.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
            I think the whole issue is not real. Most people would not suppress evidence that having rolling tongue is correlated with mathematical ability. It doesn't matter. Even if it were true, we'd still need to test people's ability, not just ask them to roll their tongue. But race is a set of physical traits people assign to an identity group. The identity grouping is the problem. The facts, e.g. which genes carry skin pigmentation, are of academic interest. The correlations only matter to the extent people are racist. Suppressing science will not stop racism.
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      • Posted by  $  1 month, 4 weeks ago
        Very true. “Facts” also shouldn’t be made up just because some think it would be more convenient If they were true. This is also a very dangerous precedent. Most of us would not like to live in a world like that of 1984.
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    • Posted by  $  1 month, 4 weeks ago
      “...we shouldn't be dividing individuals into groups in the first place.” How can this be prevented? We are all very different and grouping is used for what we have in common.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
        "How can this be prevented?"
        Just by focusing on individual rights and achievements.
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        • Posted by  $  1 month, 3 weeks ago
          So we group individuals into those who respect individual rights and those who violate individual rights? We are still dividing individuals into groups.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
            Not so long as it's about the individuals' actions.
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            • Posted by  $  1 month, 3 weeks ago
              What about dividing a bunch of individuals into those that are sick and those that are healthy? Should that type of grouping be denied?
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                "Should that type of grouping be denied?"
                I wouldn't deny people the right to be wrong, but I think it's wrong to divide people into groups of "sicks" and "healthies". People can be sick or healthy, but that doesn't mean they entered into a group. I similarly don't think of US citizens as being "Americans". They're people who have US citizenship.

                At the core, I think of people as sentient beings, who have various abilities and limitations, various physical attributes, various licenses or records of wrongdoing from authorities, and so on. Those abilities and attributes are real. The authorities could be right or wrong. I just don't think of any of that as changing the nature of what people are.
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    • Posted by  $  1 month, 4 weeks ago
      I’m sure some people do believe what you state. Does this mean that science in these areas should be actively prevented from finding the truth?
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
        I think people should seek the truth regardless of what I or anyone else believes.
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        • Posted by  $  1 month, 3 weeks ago
          Then does that mean that science in these areas should NOT be actively prevented from finding the truth?
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
            Absolutely not. Sticking to the principles of seeking the truth, even when the findings are undesirable, is not only right, but it denies the racists the bogus point that they're telling the truth that they don't wancha to know.
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            • Posted by  $  1 month, 3 weeks ago
              Glad you agree. Areas in science that try to find answers to questions such as:
              Why do some people have stronger immune systems than other people?
              Why do some people have higher intelligence quotients than other people?
              Why do some people live longer than other people?

              ...should be free to use the scientific method to discover truth that can benifit everyone.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
                The big things in the future, beyond my lifetime, are stopping/slowing aging, enhancing human intelligence and strength, and fighting infectious diseases. It sounds controversial, but if I think it's inevitable and beneficial if we use it cautiously. If people can cause a child not to be born unusually weak or slow to learn, they will use it so their child isn't below average, which outside Lake Wobegon means an artificially enhanced humanity.
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