WHY ???

Posted by upston 1 year, 7 months ago to Philosophy
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What makes smart and outwardly normal people progressives , statists , sociologists, or worse Democrats ????

I understand the leadership who crave power and the low information voters but what about the others. I have family that are accomplished , educated, wealthy and total lefties. I have been struggling with this for 40 years. I have given away many copies of A S but to little affect, I argue, present facts, joke bitch but nothing gets through. Help me please.


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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 1 year, 7 months ago
    Insecurity. Lack of confidence. Fear. All things being infused into young American children throughout their school years and reinforced by media daily. Fundamentally its destroying self-reliance and confidence and is the only true way to bring America down.

    Reminds me of this (and is eerily reflect in contemporary society in many ways these days)
    "When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already… What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.”
    Adolf Hitler
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 year, 7 months ago
      JFK was told by the then Russian Leader (Forget his name) that his Grandchildren will be begging for Communism...

      JFK Laughed...
      If he's watching, he's certainly crying now!
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      • Posted by mccannon01 1 year, 7 months ago
        I believe it was Nikita Khrushchev, but can't recall the exact quote. He also stumped Eisenhower when he posed the question referring to capitalism "How can you defend a system based on greed?". Even then people, including Eisenhower, didn't really know what capitalism was. We've been losing that part of our history for a long time. I figure if it wasn't for Ayn Rand, it would be totally gone by now.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 1 year, 7 months ago
      Makes me happy to have no children.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 1 year, 7 months ago
        The kicker is I tried hard to thwart those social influences but college snared my son who believes he's libertarian. My daughter is more independent minded conservative but still has moment that make me question. Scary indeed.
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        • Posted by $ Snezzy 1 year, 6 months ago
          "... who believes he's libertarian"

          Rand opposed libertarians, and some of the libertarians whined that she should support them. Well, Rand could see them for what they were, whim-worshipers proclaiming their faith in their own irrationality, but calling it reason. Indeed, the brilliant man who founded Reason magazine was a libertarian who felt himself to be very pro-Rand. The last words he spoke to me (shortly after he had sold Reason) were, "You should try some of this stuff. It's great." Sorry, I didn't need pot to think for me.

          Libertarianism appeals to rebels. "You can tell we are individualists. We all dress the same sloppy way."
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  • Posted by 1 year, 7 months ago
    Thanks to all that replied, I have had all these thoughts from time to time as well. Edification or lack of it has to be a big part o the matter. Not teaching the founding documents or the reason for the American Revolution, History has been revised to avoid any conflicts with the nanny state. The courts ave been packed with jurists happy to ignore the law. And then the bureaucrats dug in like ticks bleeding the host dry.
    Finally the "News media" I call them Democrats with cameras.
    If one only gets information from te mainstream and I include Fox oter than a couple of shows it is impossible to reach valid conclusions.

    AR said a thousand times " Check your premises" Garbage in garbage out. Gobles, Trotsky Engels Alinsky showed the way and the NYT is now the paper of record. Bugger me
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  • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 year, 7 months ago
    I view the Left and the Right as concepts like Mother and Father... In a Traditional Sense...
    I believe it is NATURE and a bunch of NURTURE (it is pushed into them).

    This is a Generalization... Do not attack me, there are clearly lefty males and righty females and all of that... [That I have to say this, LOL]

    For example, Women/Mothers/Leftists VALUE
    - Fairness
    - Equality (of outcome)
    - Equality (of access... All kids should get to play)
    - Nurturing and Coddling the WEAK
    - Thinking People are GOOD, or WANT to be, we just have to love them enough
    - People make mistakes, don't hold them against them!
    - White Lies
    - Feelings

    Then, Men/Fathers/Conservatives VALUE
    - Ability
    - Desire
    - Action (My dad could care less that I was acing my classes, he was concerned I was not trying to do BETTER than what was EASY, and not acing EVERY Class)
    - Outcomes/Results
    - Equality of Access
    - Differentiation (Who is First, Second, Third)
    - Relative Progress (yes son, you are on a last place team. But at the beginning of the season, you NEVER scored a point. Now you score 2-3 each game)
    - Helping others WHO TAKE Responsibility
    - AVOIDING Leeches
    - Not Coddling
    - Honesty
    - Not Feelings... FACTS.

    Follow Jordan Peterson. He makes it clear that WE NEED BOTH to thrive as society.
    But we have let the Left take over. 90%+ of K-5 teachers are all women. They are the ones pushing "everything is normal", "everyone is a winner". BS!
    And that is when it starts. I watched it with my daughter, she got a participation trophy for soccer... And looked at me and made a face and said "we sucked!"
    LOL The kids know better than the Leftists.

    Love and Coddling have a place with an infant. Even with a small child.
    But that has to switch to competition, facts, truth, EFFORT, and accepting your own limitations and strengths!

    And SHAME on the parents who let their kids take on $100,000 in debt to get a degree for a job that pays $30K or for a degree that has ZERO Hiring Prospects.

    Anyways, this is how intelligent people can see things so differently. Values and Beliefs.
    If you Value equality for everyone, you always feel bad for the kid in last place. You WANT to help him.
    But think about the two ways to help him
    1) Leftist: Hold Everyone else back so he has a "Fair" chance to win
    2) Conservative: Help him train

    And finally, WHY help him... Maybe he doesn't want to win AT THIS?
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    • Posted by 1 year, 7 months ago
      At the risk of upsetting my wife of 35 years , AGAIN, I agree with much of what you describe. We can't blame the ladies for the progressive revolution however. W Wilson, T Roosevelt his mad cus, FDR all came to power when men ran the show.
      I recall Ron Paul's speech when he retired from congress and opined that freedom and liberty never seemed to generate any enthusiasm with the voters.
      I came to te US in 79 from Australia and was often asked why I would leave such a great country. Rather than point out all the statist Utopian crap down under I would just say To come to "the land of the free and the home of the brave" I don't say that any more but I still hope it's true.
      Thanks for taking the time to reply
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    • Posted by $ Stormi 1 year, 6 months ago
      I am a female who was raised to believe all the things you attribute to males. She list seems to be soccer moms, as stereotypes. The difference is reason, which comes from observing the worlds and reading.You are absolutely right about kids being under the guidance of touchy feelie teachers, of both sexes. I can remember learning early on, and passing to our daughter, "There is no fairness in nature, it is a man made concept." Once ingrained, it is no longer a valid excuse. I don't trust people, they earn my trust through actions. Equality,? Does not exist, live with it, everyone has different, and must overcome weaknesses and pursue talents. You are, accept that and make the best of it.
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      • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 year, 6 months ago
        Stormi, which is why I said it is truly a Generalization.

        Good for you. I taught my daughter similar things. It's parents job to prepare their children.
        Lazy parents let the schools take over... And we see what happened.
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      • Posted by 1 year, 6 months ago
        AR was a female I think :) And Marks and the others ware boys so as Jacky Mason said," bigotry is stupid, get to know some one and hate em for a perfectly good reason" Jacky is a great man who supports the US Constitution.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 1 year, 6 months ago
    Never underestimate the power of FREE. I've watched any number of my co-workers get intoxicated if there is a free bar. I manage to avoid that, but the free buffet brings me down.

    Most of us will stand in line for free stuff.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 6 months ago
      As an Ozzy I have been trampled by the mob headed to the open BAR. Free is I think the best explanation of the mob mentality. Free medical coverage swept a Labor " democrat" victory in Australia in the early 70. Every election since has swung on tweaking the FREE stuff. Medical standards have gone to crap but the co pay is $4 mate !!
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  • Posted by mia767ca 1 year, 6 months ago
    "smart" people....that is the wrong assumption...they are very ignorant and choose to speak with emotions rather that rational thought...when you challenge them with facts, they then claim their "opinion" is just as valid as yours...

    rule #1...don't argue with a crazy person...
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  • Posted by $ DeangalvinFL 1 year, 7 months ago
    What makes "normal" people go along with statist ideas?
    Because they are compelling and true on a personal level!! We as humans DO want to help and care for those we love - children, etc.
    Yet, that does not imply that the government should do it.
    Most people refuse to differentiate.
    So, I too have banged my head against a wall for years and have next to nothing to show for it. Yet I carry on.
    Keep at it.
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  • Posted by gafisher 1 year, 7 months ago
    Guilt, in a word. A refusal to believe they could have earned their success, in large part because it admits the less successful have not done so and passes responsibility for that failure to others.
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    • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 6 months ago
      Good. Guilt and remorse are the individual's emotional response to violating their own values. Their problem is lack of a sense of individual worth -- which may be justified -- and they have the cognitive dissonance as a result.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 1 year, 6 months ago
    Intellectual shallowness seems to be the common thread. Many so called intelligent people are only given the descriptive because they can repeat back what has been shoved into their little pea brains. Actual perception and understanding is the missing element.

    My brother in law has a PhD in a highly technical area, and is a dyed-in-the-wool progressive. My discovery of his actual limited intellectual capacity came not from a political discussion, but from a technical one. He asked me about a space activity that he didn't understand, and I proceeded to make the link between what puzzled him and the general physics principles involved that connected to his area of expertise. To my shock, he said he never paid much attention to principles, so long as the numbers in his equations gave the right answer.

    My conclusion from this exchange was that he, like many leftists, eagerly clings to what "sounds right" rather than what makes sense. He stopped having political discussions with me because he said my use of facts and logic was "unfair."
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    • Posted by 1 year, 6 months ago
      Nice one DR, Larry Elder a radio host likes to say " Facts to a liberal are like kryptonite to Superman" The ability to ignore certain infomation that would conflict with a theory or belief seems to be common and almost universal. CO2 increases a few points per million is the end of the planet so the stats can regulate all human activity. A guy rose from the dead and was the son of god and if you dispute that we burn you alive. The government has trouble issuing drivers licences in a orderly way but is the only entity that can run the health care system.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 1 year, 6 months ago
    I think the blame rests squarely on our educational system. Just seeing the influence it had on my son when he was in high school in the 1990's (here in Az.). He very much on the left politically, while I'm far right and his mother is middle of the road. We don't even try to change his mind anymore. Any intellectual discussion with him ends up in a verbal brawl. Schools are no longer teaching what my wife and I learned. It seems that American History and Civics have been replaced with rote memorization for high testing scores so the school districts can get more funding. Textbooks and info from online are probably tilted towards the left.
    Recently on Fox News, they had a journalist questioning college students and then people on the street they seem completely oblivious to current events or spew socialist ideology.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 1 year, 6 months ago
    Could be that all their accumulated information is compartmentalized only in their brain, (the brain/neurons are compartmentalized and cannot integrate) and being accomplished a sense of narcissism sets in coupled with a bit of guilt which manifest into what you have observed.

    Consciousness soars on the wings of metaphors is my summation of the works of Julian Jaynes. He points out that the left brain alone is amazing, the right brain is a phenomenal addition but...in the folks you describe they are disconnected...they may be Bicameral as opposed to unicameral which produces consciousness, a real conscience, identity and the ability to self introspect, not to mention integrate information into the form of wisdom.

    You might try using metaphors they might be familiar with to describe reality as we know it in a non-(leftest)-offensive way.
    Make it personal but not obvious so they can use their emotions to re-awaken a connection to their minds.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 6 months ago
      Carl, That is some deep thinking. My brother in law is a nice guy but wrong on all maters political. I was with him alone for a few days so my wife was not there to protect him from my poking. After I pinned him down on multiple subjects and got to some fundamental questions he readily agreed with me. He tried not to get cornered by dreaded logic and used all the tricks to change the subject but without the ladies to provide cover it was over. We became much better friends as a result and he no longer makes dumb talking point shots when I am around. My point is they stay at the surface but if you drag them under they stop squirming pretty quick, to use a metaphor. Tanks for your post
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 1 year, 6 months ago
        You are welcome.
        It happens to be my work and permeates my writings. My first book didn't go that deep but the next one, (in progress) will.

        My journey started out to understand what we have missed during our life times and how history and knowledge in general has been confounded.
        My only objective was to get it right...although many of my points can be observed, they can't be proven to be causation. Psychologist and some quantum physicist would agree but pure science would be hesitant. Much of that would be ideological un-intergrated programing. (they refuse to look at the observation).
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 1 year, 6 months ago
    Because intelligence is no guarantee of rationality.
    And also, not everyone wants to know the truth. Have you read Leonard Peikoff"s The Ominous Parallels? It is a sort of history of philosophy. It explains how bad philosophy fosters (if not originates) irrationality, causing the wrong epistemology, the wrong metaphysics (view of the earth), which causes evil politics.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 1 year, 6 months ago
    According to Pinker, one of the inherited tendencies seems to be "Conformance to Social Expectations". These people would probably be Conservatives if it were 'in style' to be conservatives and Libertarians if it were 'fashionable' to be that.

    If you want to change your relatives, then change social expectations. Not only will they probably switch, but they will also probably claim that 'this is what they thought all along'. Because the did: what they thought is what Society expected.

    Jan
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  • Posted by Herb7734 1 year, 6 months ago
    Sorry, but it's exactly the same with my family. A couple of cousins have cut me off altogether. Libralism is a disease. If you come from what was originally a working class family, the idea that the Democrats are "for the working people" is ingrained to the point of being a cult.It doesn't matter that everyone is now successful or a professional. I could say more, but it's lunchtime.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 1 year, 6 months ago
    I've read all the responses, but didn't see one that applied to my daughter. She is old enough that her schooling was not as liberal as it is today. She never finished college, but took a job as a programmer. Taught herself Java, which is not an easy language.

    I think that she persisits in being a liberal because her job is now threatened by the reforms being made by President Trump. Her employer had mostly government contracts, which are now in jeopardy.

    So she refuses to even talk to me any more about philosophical issues. I have to bite my tongue in order not to say anything to upset her, or the conversation is over.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 6 months ago
    “Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm; but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves.” TS Elliot

    I think seeking "external validation" plays a part in it, something that AR never did.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 6 months ago
      Great point, the crazy success of face book et al proves the power of social acceptance. I wonder if Gulchers are heavy users or shun it like me ??
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      • Posted by jimjamesjames 1 year, 6 months ago
        I have four friends on FB. Not interested in any others except to find out who, in my generation (I'm 75) have died. I think you are right about the heavy users of social media, looking for external validation.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 1 year, 6 months ago
    There may be any number of reasons, but I'll give you one not mentioned: a lack of long-term priorities. Look at everything about the progressive Left. Everything is based on the short-term: power, money, etc. Until people start thinking long-term, honesty can be replaced by a few white lies, fidelity turns to promiscuity, and the pursuit of power becomes everything.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 6 months ago
      When a large % of the work force grew food the long term was implicit and rewarded with a surplus one could tradel. Now it off to Searbucks for a muffin on the Visa.
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  • Posted by mccannon01 1 year, 7 months ago
    I figure it is primeval and tribal still in mans survival mechanism. "We" as a whole may not be as far out of the jungle as we would like to think. Therefore, there is a familial feeling of comfort in the collective. It takes effort and risk to be a rational individual as opposed to being an instinctive herd animal. One can be "smart" in many ways and still be tribal. The true concept of individual liberty is extremely new on the historical scene and, arguably, the United States was the first massive effort towards creating a civilization comprised of free individuals. Maybe mankind still isn't ready for it, yet.
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    • Posted by 1 year, 7 months ago
      Good thinking, DNA is powerful stuff, some run to the guns, most flee, others play dead. Natures way to insure some make it through the crisis. There was safety in the crowd.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 1 year, 7 months ago
        Thanks.

        I'd like to add a little saying I've given my kids: "Freedom without responsibility is freedom corrupted and soon lost." Herd humans accept no responsibility for whatever they do (or don't do) and always seem to end up in chains - literally or figuratively.
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  • Posted by Abaco 1 year, 7 months ago
    Americans, more and more, are entering the paradigm of Big Brother. I think that's about it. Many people, like those born in North Korea labor camps, don't really know anything different. They find comfort in it. It's insane, of course...
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  • Posted by $ DeangalvinFL 1 year, 7 months ago
    Some advice, for whatever it is worth.
    You want their approval and acceptance too much, thus it bothers you.
    Try, very difficult to do, try to teach from on high. Don't worry if they get it. But keep trying.
    Have confidence that you are making some small difference - because you are.
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