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Warnings about school shooting suspect missed

Posted by $ nickursis 6 years, 2 months ago to Culture
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We missed the signs, but want your guns. Were stupid, but we will protect you from bad guys who didn't give us your guns. You may be dead, but rest happy we will send him to prison for killing you, or maybe parole, because the shrink says he's nice. What a dysfunctional system. Ayn Rand would not put up with it.....
SOURCE URL: https://www.yahoo.com/news/plenty-warnings-florida-school-shooting-suspects-past-missed-signs-154926468.html


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  • Posted by BCRinFremont 6 years, 2 months ago
    I have been looking, in vain, for information on killer Cruz’s birth mother. I have this sense that the amniotic environment may have been a gene altering soup of various controlled substances. ‘Just sayin...
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    • Posted by skidance 6 years, 2 months ago
      I'm a veteran of the trenches of child welfare. Many, if not most, of my clients were prenatally exposed to drugs and/or alcohol. Frequently parental mental illness was involved. This morning, I listened to the "host family's" statement. Apparently he had difficulty with organization, and possibly learning disabilities. They had to instruct him in performing basic simple tasks. Having had a couple of clients with similar issues, the shooter may well have had frontal lobe damage, as well as learning disabilities. That could be a result of maternal substance abuse, genetics, and/or physical trauma.
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      • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
        Do a read on the adoptive parents/situation... kind of a tear-jerker. They were not really competent by a stretch either.
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        • Posted by skidance 6 years, 2 months ago
          Unfortunately, adoptive parents are often inadequately screened.
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          • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
            I think a 10 second glance on the application where the father was about 60 and the mother was about 50, and they wanted to adopt some infant twins - it wouldn't have been a stretch to reconsider that one...

            At 18, dad would be 78? Mom having hot-flashes and menopause while changing diapers?

            There are long lines of adoptive parent prospects in this country, look at how many will spend $50,000 to $100,000 to adopt a little Chinese kid. This doesn't seem like we have to accept all-comers.

            They were exhausted parents and the kids lived their lives in video games, doesn't appear to have been any religious or moral foundation taught to them, I don't think it's much more complex than that.
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            • Posted by skidance 6 years, 2 months ago
              But, but.... They would have screamed, "age discrimination"! I've actually seen that happen--or the adoption agency fears that it might, so does not reject the prospective adoptive parent(s). It seems to me that common sense and objectivity are sadly lacking these days.
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
      I'm still baffled that they adopted a couple of young toddlers to a some senior citizens.. I'm not saying they are not "loving parents", but there is a biological reason why the procreation thing shuts down at about 32.. it takes a younger person to keep up with kids.

      Now at 47, and my son is grown and about to be married, I am pretty shocked when I see people about my age with young kids that were probably assisted-by-science. War deployments, 20 years of business ownership, business travel, curling, golf, shooting on the weekends... I would be pretty damned exhausted trying to take care of a toddler (at 10 or 12 years older than I am now).

      The article I read described the "mom" at 49 and her husband (adopted dad) were retired and had just moved to south Florida when they adopted the kids. The dad died a few years later (I presume of natural causes as he was older than the wife and a retired advertising executive from NY).

      After the dad died, the mom approached several neighbors asking them to take the kids, because she couldn't keep up with them (4-5 year olds). We can generally assume how the rest of their childhood went.

      Seems like mom was a stay-at-home wife, and with the limited information I have read, bipolar or depressive. We can also make some assumptions of that toxic soup the kids were raised in from a mental health perspective.. not including whatever their birth parents passed-along.

      I realize the evil this kid did, but if I was on the jury and they were asking for a death penalty, I have to admit I would probably not be able to make that leap based on what I have read (no idea if it is entirely factual).

      This kids & adults don't come out of the ether.. society crafts them. We have to start acknowledging our failures - and it's not a lack of gun control.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
        The left does not want to hold anyone accountable for their actions, thatis a fundamental difference between Liberal and Conservative views, the issue of "personal responsibility". They need the state to tell you that someone has an issue, then the want the state to take care of it, and the state invariable fails because no state can provide that kind of oversight without it being onerous and invasive.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 2 months ago
      I got it in a report that Cruz was adopted (when very small) and that his adoptive parents cared for him. Then the father passed away about ten years ago and the mother was left to care for two of them and their psychological needs by herself. She passed away about a year ago and he was being cared for by relatives of the parents. They had given him his own room and were trying to help him cope with everything and had helped him find a job and get into a community college (despite his expulsion from high school). Sounded to me like just a kid who had a pretty tenuous grip on reality in the first place and lost it.
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      • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
        Mostly accurate, though I have other information (may or may not be accurate). The adoptive father passed away at 4, mom would have been about 54 at that point (when Nikolas was 4 or 5), she died of the flu in November 2017.

        The people that took him in were not relatives of the adoptive parents, they were the parents of a friend of his that had known him for several years.

        They temporary housing adults keep insisting he had the rifle locked up - that's obvious, in most states it is a felony and criminal negligence + others to make available a firearm to a person you believe or know to be mentally ill. If they admit the kid had the rifle in bed with him, they are going to prison.
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        • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
          One would think the kids would have had some estate assets or something after the mom died, unless she was completely broke - the county or others did sell their house though. I'm not quite understanding why he was having to couch-surf. I'm thinking shady estate attorney or something there too possibly.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
        No one has explained why he had an AR15 (even though locked) and he had the key. That is like letting the repeat drunk driver have the car and the key to the booze, the results are almost 99.99% certain. It seems to look like the whole thing was "destined" to happen, and the numerous places it could have been stopped just "failed"?
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  • Posted by wiggys 6 years, 2 months ago
    I wonder if when ever these things happen if they are put up jobs. the problem the fbi has now is that they were caught with their pants down. they may have been told to stand down, let him do it. I think there is a faction in the swamp that will do anything to take guns away from the populous.The fact that someone comes forward to say I read the kids facebook and reported it to the fbi and they did nothing.
    next time a person sees something similar, call the fbi and record the name date and time of call.
    call the school and tell them it has been reported to the fbi. Then call the local police where the school is and tell them. And finally call a news paper in that community and give them all of the info and the facebook account to see. In this manner maybe the fbi will get off their butts.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
      Well, then you all need to go check out Q ANons posts that are floating around out there, it is someone who is trying to be cryptic and secret but seems to be indicating there is a whole lot going on below the surface. The "false flag" gun incident scenarios have been rampant for the last 6 or 7 years, as they seem to happen with great regulariity, and this one just happened to be just as the Mueller Probe said they could find no collusion with Trump. I have not done much looking into it, as there is a lot I have found that was not accurate, times and dates did not work out (one point was Assange would be released from the embassy and come to the US, but a British Judge (with ties to the way left) blocked it and said that a case that was dropped is still valid and he is subject to arrest), but there is thought he is someone high up who is aware of all the efforts by the Trump side to de-nut the deep state.

      https://youtu.be/5xYb6J66_LU
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  • Posted by chad 6 years, 2 months ago
    One thing that has not been mentioned by the media or the socialist politicians that are hoping this will yet lead to the disarming of America is that everyone of these shootings involved a young kid on drugs (usually medication) for their troubled minds. From Columbine, to Newtown to the Florida school and smaller incidents that were prevented in each case every kid was being treated with Ritalin or some other anti-psychotic drug. Perhaps what should be done is removing from any school any kid on this kind of medication and monitoring closely where they are and what they are doing. Removing the use of one weapon will only direct the troubled individual to find another way. It isn't the type of weapon that is dangerous, it is the type of person.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 6 years, 2 months ago
    Yeah...I listened to Stefan Molyneoux's podcast on this when I was out running errands this weekend. Frankly...I am amazed at 1-the depth of deception put out through the mainstream media right after the shooting, and 2-the totally across-the-board failure of multiple organizations who's charters are specifically to prevent this kind of thing.

    When my neighbor was talking to me about how much they really knew about this kid I just said, "Sounds like it wasn't an accident." I still, sadly, think that's the case. Strange, strange days, my friends...
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  • Posted by NealS 6 years, 2 months ago
    Everyone knows, practically entirely from the media, that Cruz is the perpetrator of this horrendous act, and yet under the law he is still referred to in the media as the suspect. Under our system he could possibly not get a fair jury trial because everyone knows he's guilty and can identify him, so perhaps we should just let him go free. That really sounds stupid, even as stupid as allowing some people their freedom until they actually commit a crime. What if there was procedural error in his arrest that set him free, such as not advising him of his rights? Something has to change in our laws, something that actually has nothing to do with guns, magazines, or ammo. I would presume someone like Cruz would use some other deadly means to accomplish the same thing had a gun not been available. We need to find out why, not how or what, we already know how and what. Our leaders need to meet face to face, not twitter and tweet their disagreements, and not just use the media to try to gain public approval for dissention against each other, and more votes for reelection. They need to tell each other face to face why they so disrespect each other, and adjust their open opinions so they can accomplish the tasks we pay and elect them to do. It’s really all up to the people, but the people are too just to ignorant and prejudiced to make honest decisions at the polls. It’s a lot more than just liberal against conservative, “D” against “R”. Today we’re more into feeling good, feeling the power, bad mouthing the opposition..

    Something has drastically changed since I was a kid, we used to take our guns to school in order to work on them in metal shop and/or woodshop, and no one got shot. Guns have been around for a long time. Guns haven't changed except for some basic differences, shape, color, feel, the way they look, insignificant as to what they can do. A single shot bolt action rifle can kill just as effectively as an AR15, or even an M16, but they all take someone to aim them and pull the trigger. Those differences have not changed the way we behave, our society is what has changed us. Hell, I even remember when our politicians seemed to openly respect each other, and people actually respected the laws we had, at least most of them. Whatever has changed is what has to be stopped.

    We may need to make and enforce laws (all laws) that stop the crimes (all crimes) and the causes of those crimes, not more laws against the tools (whatever they are) used to commit those crimes. A crime is an action by man, it is not a tool used to commit a crime. Some crimes are committed (by man) without the use of a tool. Running people down with a vehicle is a crime, the vehicle is not a criminal, the driver is. Personally I attribute the biggest changes in society to our politicians, especially some of the current ones, they confuse the people with their graft and power struggles, and today openly disobey the same laws that we pay them to create. What can anyone expect from our youth and even so many adults when we demonstrate such disrespect for each other and disrespect for our laws in so many parts of our society today? Many people have got to be confused as hell. The question is, what are we going to do about it that actually works?
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
      Yeah, I think everyone I knew when I was a kid had a .410 or a .20 gauge in the back window of the truck during pheasant season.
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      • Posted by NealS 6 years, 2 months ago
        You must have seen mine, and it was in, you'll probably not believe this either, it was in California, back when California was a State in the 50's. My dad actually taught me to shoot when I was about 6, and by the time I was eleven I owned both a shotgun and a rifle, and even a bow and arrows. However the key thing here is that I never shot anyone, still haven't to date.
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        • Posted by NealS 6 years, 2 months ago
          Oops, sorry, you got me, speaking of forgetting things (about 50 years ago), I have to admit that I did do some shooting at some people, probably even killed them, I saw them go down, but I don't know absolutely for sure if they died or not, they were shooting back, and they weren't there in the morning. I did not use my old rifle or shotgun, you provided me with some other ones, well actually you gave me only a pistol, I had to buy the M16 that I carried and used. I also used a comrades M14 (M1A) to shoot at people, it was better at actually knocking people down. I do know also that I was ordered to order thousands more to die from 8" and 175mm rounds we sent to them by air mail. I can live with this because that's what you trained me to do and actually it was in self defense of myself and my comrades. Let me restate my claim; to this day I have not shot, or even shot at, anyone that didn't deserve it.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
      Something HAS changed, and that is the mystery, however, I would guess an effort is being made to destabilize the society, and make it easier to control, and place controls on it. For all the existing controls, they seem to fail spectacularly at the oddest places and times. Look at road rage, a woman just shot a guy who pissed her off and posted "Don't make me spank you", really?
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      • Posted by NealS 6 years, 2 months ago
        I forgot something else again. Why are some of our representatives trying to destabilize our society? Are they not conscientious of what they are actually doing? Can they be that ignorant, or has the power just overtaken their minds?
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
          Lets see, the Democrats refused to attend Trumps inauguration and started talking impeachment before he even took office, and have been pushing it since. They have a petition with 4 million people saying impeach even with no cause. That ought to say something about how unstable some of them are, law has no meaning to them.
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      • Posted by NealS 6 years, 2 months ago
        I agree, something has changed, and it's got nothing to do with the tools. When I knocked out my thesis above I was angry and I just let it flow, that’s why it’s so disconnected and long. I was going to proofread one more time, but I might have deleted it, so I just sent it as is. I do that sometimes, I actually learned it from our politicians, get your feeling out there, good or bad, exercise your power and authority. It’s interesting too that I never even thought about the intent to destabilize our society. Of course I agree, there are others outside of the United States that would love to see us go under so they could jump in and exercise their own power. I kind of miss “The Americans”, I wonder if it’s on Netflix. It was always hard for me to understand how someone like that could live in a country like this and still try to tear it down for the benefit of the country they actually experienced before they were sent here. I wonder how the athletes from North Korea can’t see the differences in the South compared to what they live in in the North. Then I think perhaps, or maybe more likely, where and how they live is probably great, they probably are treated as the elite, and don’t see their lifestyle any different than anyone else’s. It’s kind of like I cannot honestly know what it might be to live in poverty in the US. It just doesn’t affect me, or does it?
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
          I thought the Americans" was a series on one of the Sattellite TV channels, I remember seeing it when surfing. But there has been a distinct "feel" for the last 20 years of way too much illogical, insane things being done. Just lately, the Trump agreement to spend 300 billion on whatever, go a trillion more in debt, and no one bats an eye. Now, if you or I borrowed a million, and then another million, with no hope of paying it back, we would go to jail for fraud or something. They don't, and the vast bulk of America has no clue that we are in for a complete financial meltdown. Yet they keep on doing it, so either the whole political system is insane, or someone is doing something with some plan somewhere's, and it involves the ability to just declare all that stuff "null and void". Dictatorship seems to be the only answer in my pea brain.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 6 years, 2 months ago
    my wife's best girlfriend's grandson was one of the kid's shot and killed...heads should roll at FBI and the Broward county school system...if not some serious jail time....they force kids to attend the govt indoctrination program (public high school) and refuse to protect them...
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    • Posted by term2 6 years, 2 months ago
      I might be wrong, but aren’t most if not all the shootings at government schools?
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      • Posted by ycandrea 6 years, 2 months ago
        If I had high school aged kids now I would not let them go to a gov't run one. Maybe a Catholic one or I would home school. Are there private high schools? Now there is a need that some enterprising people could fill!
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        • Posted by term2 6 years, 2 months ago
          I graduated high school in 1962, before the shooting thing kicked in. My problem back then was the boredom factor- being force fed what THEY wanted to teach rather than relying on me to learn
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
        Now there is an interesting post, I am not up on every shooting, but I have not heard of any at a private school or charter school...
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        • Posted by term2 6 years, 2 months ago
          the nut cases probably resent being forced to go to the government schools. I remember I was bored silly in public school- couldnt wait to get out. Once I got to college (MIT), I was interested in what they taught. Unlike high school (public).
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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
            Yep, only I went to the Navy and had the same experience.
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            • Posted by term2 6 years, 2 months ago
              Interestingly enough, I find YouTube to be a pretty good source for learning stuff that is relevand to my life right now, like auto diagnosis and repair for example. I fixed my chevy avalanche and my dishwasher be looking at youtube. There is "learning", where you choose what you need to know, and "teaching", where they try to inject you with knowledge THEY want you to know. I dont remember much of anything I learned up through high school- They taught, and I must have just been THERE in name only because they made me attend.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 6 years, 2 months ago
    Superintendents always act on the CYO method, they knew nothing. They FBI screwed up, but so did the schools. The parents let the schools control their kids, their kids became such that they only told peers what they knew. Lots of blame to go around, but it is hard to buck the mighty school system, who want nothing public about what they are doing, less parents get involved.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
      here is the kicker, they made all parents sign in to the school before entering, but did not have it secured enough to stop someone from sneaking in, so how does that work?
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      • Posted by $ Stormi 6 years, 2 months ago
        Our local schools are more afraid of parents getting in and seeing how they are indoctrinating the kids than they are worried about shooters. Parents must sign in a a front desk and go no farther until granted permission, and the teacher is informed. Meanwhile several childrn have managed to get in with loaded and unloaded guns in this rural school!
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  • Posted by ycandrea 6 years, 2 months ago
    You gotta wonder how this kid got a gun legally. Kind of weird.
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
      Adjudication of mental illness requires a judge's order to be held for being a reason to yourself or others. In California, we call it a "5150 hold" - or a temporary 72 hour mental evaluation hold. The fact that the kid "walked out" of the mental health treatment center suggests it was not adjudicated, because the adjudicated court-order ones don't have doors that open from the inside.

      Simply seeing a therapist for whatever doesn't make someone an adjudication of mental illness, nor should it. Many people have a mental illness - over 25% of the population, if treated it's nothing to worry about. Brains are chemical computers, they go hay wire when there is a chemical imbalance. Correct the imbalance and things can be pretty normal (within reason).

      We need to have a few key laws changed:

      1.) Mental Health Privacy - if someone walks out of a mental health treatment center, or stop taking your medication, your physician should be required to report it to the background check system. It's not a "crime", but you shouldn't be buying firearms or getting on planes.

      2.) I'm tired of bullshit arguments put up by people on the media for gun control laws that are "true" where they are, but they think is the gospel for the other 49 states - and that is not the case.

      Personally, I think the uneven allocation of gun control and criminal prosecution associated violates the equal protection clause of the Constitution. It seems like we need to trash all of them and just implement a system uniformly across the country.

      "Gun Show Loophole" - finally, a lefty admitted on TV, that is when you meet someone (another shopper) at a gun show, go out to the parking lot and sell a gun for cash. Ok, that happens at a 7/11 too, it's not a "gun show loophole".

      "Holes in the Background Check System" - The FBI actually contracts that out to a private vendor, the contract is re-bid every 5 years. How about if they just change the requirements and have the new vendor bid accordingly. They don't need 6 months of debate for that.

      "Fell through the cracks" - they all fall through the cracks, we all know government is horribly inefficient and pretty much incompetent at most things it does. Are we surprised? I don't see a Six Sigma result coming out of any of these plans.

      "Weapons of War" - the Las Vegas guy is the only one shooting from a long distance. For everyone else, a semi-auto handgun with a 50 or 100 round magazine would be doing exactly the same result as an AR-15 at 10 feet to 50 yards. I haven't seen anyone screaming about handguns - though they do represent 90%+ of gun deaths.
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      • Posted by skidance 6 years, 2 months ago
        I once had a client who faked being suicidal to avoid placement. That client preferred to be in a hospital environment. When the 72 hours expired, a new suicide threat was made.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 2 months ago
    Me dino has me own way of translating "We missed the signs. We should have seen some of the signs" that's a quote
    by a county commissioner whose name sounds like a product that's not PC. Who the hell is called Beam Furr?
    Anyhoo, here's me own beam on what Beam said~
    "We ignored the signs. We should have done something about the signs everyone is now saying they saw."
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 2 months ago
      Here's a new wrinkle dino just discovered when me dino keeps hearing that the rank and file of the FBI are to be in no way compared to their loser leadership~
      http://thehill.com/homenews/news/3742...
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
        Because Comey was too busy trying to save his ass, and the rest of them were too busy looking for Russians and connecting all that collusion going on. If people would just wake up and realize just how much their BS politicis and easter egg hunts to get dirt on their "evil others" and stop wasting time on them, they might have actually done their job. From that article there is one person to Blame: Comey.
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        • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 2 months ago
          We had a saying in the military during the Cold War, "If we ever had a competent enemy, we would really be in deep shit". That came from all the screw-ups we did... loading live nukes on a training-run for a bomber crew (that happened a few times), blew a few cargo jets up at Travis when a technician reset a blown circuit breaker on the power circuit for an in-tank fuel pump. Oops.

          The Russians have been lost in the desert for 40 years.. yet if you listen to the MSM, they are the epitome of efficient evil operations. When they take their lips off the vodka bottle I guess.
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          • Posted by Madanthonywayne 6 years, 2 months ago
            “The Russians have been lost in the desert for 40 years.. yet if you listen to the MSM, they are the epitome of efficient evil operations. When they take their lips off the vodka bottle I guess”

            It all depends on the narrative they’re pushing. When belittling Mitt Romney’s accurate assessment of the geopolitical situation it was, “The eighties called, they want their foreign policy back”. When trying to delegitimize Trump, it’s Putin the evil mastermind controlling U.S. elections.
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  • Posted by Madanthonywayne 6 years, 2 months ago
    This wasn’t a case of “we missed the signs”. This guy was reported to the FBI in September for saying he wanted to be a professional school shooter in a post on YouTube. He made the post using his actual name, but the FBI said they couldn’t figure out who posted the comment. Then in January of this year, someone who knew him contacted the FBI and said the guy was stockpiling guns and was a likely school shooter. Two direct reports made to the FBI specifically naming the guy and they did NOTHING.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
      Yes, and the excuses keep flying. Amazing how anything with Trump is instant impeachment, yet when another area of our useless governmental organs fail, it's "we will get to the bottom of this".
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 2 months ago
    I have not read a single word beyond a headline or listened to any info on this, so I'm completely ignorant.

    Seeing the headlines without having actual information, it's amazing to me how when any rare costly peril happens in any context there are always Monday morning quarterbacks. If they were responsible for validating that circuit board, reading the military reports, or whatever, the peril never would have happened. But bad stuff will always happen. Ghastly accounts of something like someone dying in a freak elevator accident are not actionable. They can only cause over-reaction.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
      CG, you really should look into this, unless you hate guns, have none, and don't give a hoot. The id was 19, dysfunctional, had been reported to the FBI twice as violent and saying he was going to kill kids at school, then did it. Now, every snowflake in the world is melting down and demanding all guns be taken away. Something wrong here?
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 2 months ago
        "you really should look into this, unless you hate guns, have none, and don't give a hoot. "
        No thank you, but thankfully other people follow it. I hope they will post an action alert if there is a specific bill to ban something or there is a proposed new rule open to public comment. I will contact someone in my Congressman's or Senators' office to urge them not to just make more things illegal.

        It's hard to say for sure how effective I am, but when there's a specific vote I care about, I like to think I can move the needle and actually change their vote, esp if even a handful of other people who know the congressman and/or someone on his staff all do the same thing.
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 2 months ago
          I have no fasith in any congressman, as they all work for someone other than their district. However, Trump has told Sessions to look into banning bump stocks, which is a no brainer, unless you think you need rapid fire for killing a herd of deer or sasquatches.. not too much opposition from anyone I have heard of. What they need to do is to be able to classify specific risk factors and require them to be entered in the NIBC system, so you pull a name and it gets flagged for the risk factors and not allow a goober like this kid to buy a gun.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 2 months ago
    This kid was programmed for disaster. Who knows what he experienced pre-birth from substance abuse by the birth mother. He had mental health issues and was on medications meant to control anger and violence, but what we've discovered, thanks to several of these shootings, is that those medications can often have a reverse effect, worsening the anger outbursts. The sheriff's office was called to his home 39 times because of his dangerous explosions of anger, and still was allowed to purchase the gun. Right now, juvenile records are not coordinated with other law enforcement, so the FBI had no indication of trouble until a few months ago. We need to make sure that dangerous individuals, even if juveniles, are reported to the NICS database, to deny them access to legal guns.
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    • Posted by skidance 6 years, 2 months ago
      While it's indeed possible that some psychotropic drugs may affect certain individuals in ways that, say, enhance anger, it's also the case that the most dangerous period is shortly after the patient begins the medication (before it has time to go into effect) or if and when the medication is abruptly discontinued.
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