However, nothing to say a well thought out plan for government on Libertarian lines might not appeal to the huge middle. Just like Trump has. People are burned out on corruption, so any good platform to kill it would be supported. Whether it could pass...well...

Poor Ron got beat up everythime he mentioned anything, and Rand is not far behind, but they have always made decent starting points, they just never fit into the mainstream corruption model so they were always sidelined. Rand fought the ObamaCare thing simply because he stuck to the Repeal, then replace idea.

Indeed Dob, I think CG seems to have that "look on the bright side" and ignore the dark, type of evaluation. That is probably reflective of a large majority of the middle left people in the country, as it seems to fit their whole framework.

Yes , I also thought exposure to rational discussion would cause him to see the issues in a different light. He has a tendency to ignore evidence of corruption and disingenuous character. Who you get close too or align yourself with tells a lot about your ethics.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/... or thishttps://www.google.com/search?q=photo+of+hill...

Well, it may that simple, but I see it as a group working behind the scenes for long term engineering of society the way they want it. Europe went that way, and everything is engineered for control, they ration healthcare, and public services are on a "when we get to you so shut up" basis. That is what they are working for her. The illegal thing is just part of their weapons, more of them, let them vote legally or not, and it helps their cause. I think there is more ideology or purpose than money in it. The "militrary industrial complex" would be a uniquely Republican machine, and does control a chunk of the government, the vast amount though is on the Dumbocrap side of "people programs". So, given that there would need to be some group that is willing to use both ideologies against themselves, it seems something more sinister IMHO, of course.

Wasnt that Ron Paul thought? The establishment would make mince meat out of him and he wouldnt get traction

CG, you have to relize how much money and power is involved here, you could never organize any plebiscite, simply because there is no vehicle for it, for a good reason. That would allow people to over ride the corrupt. The Convention of States IS the plebiscite.Did you not know all spending programs are geared to a special group simply because of the very thing you mention? That is the reason you cannot cut the budget.

I looke once at Gary Johnson and said "nope" he is all over the map and had no real clear logic that matched the Libertarian platform to reality. The libertarians would have an excellent chance if they would take time to craft a well balanced policy platform of freedom and what little government we can get away with. If they ran with a balanced budget, term limits, and leave out the social engineering, they might well win.

They would. The issue is not the mechanics or structure, it is all the manipulation from politicians through the years, the most notable I know of is the packing of the SCOTUS on ideological lines vice knowledge of Constitutional Law. FDR abused the heck out of it with his threat to pack the court until they found an illegal system (Social Security) Constitutional. The mechanics of the US system are fine, the politicians are not. Unfortunately, you seem to like the current worst acting group we have. Although, the Republicrats are right next to them in line to guzzel at the feed trough..

Ah, yes....well...

It's your time to waste, but after 4 years of being here he still voted for Hitlery. He has repeatedly shown he is lacking rational thought. His posts are rarely anything but illogical FUD.

Gary Johnson was the clown really. He just didnt have what it takes to be a president. He didnt even know what Aleppo was in spite of it being in the news for months and months. PLUS, he would be really anti-establishment, and the establishment would never have worked with him.

Think of the president as the front man that the establishment puts up there to convince the voters of what the establishment people want.

Trump was NOT an establishment candidate, but he got people to vote for him against the establishment. Thats why they hate him so much, and precisely why he was a good choice to "drain the swamp". Not that the establishment will permit him wholesale draining- in fact they will try and stop him at all times and at all costs.

But, if he drains it a little, its better than what Hillary would have done. She sold access to her governmental powers TO the establishment so that she would grant them favors. It was so obvious.

The shadow government is US really. A large number of economically powerful people want to use the government to feather their nests, and donate money to keep the excuses and justifications rolling along so their business and personal interests are assisted by governmental power. The propaganda they spout is supposed to get the rest of the citizens to go along with their hidden agendas while allowing us to think we are doing what needs to be done for the "country".

Its hard to root out who the shadow government is, because its so big and involves so many of us.

Defense contractors want war so they can sell more stuff. Politicians want "problems" that they can get more money from the citizens that make them "look good". Schools want education grants. Medical suppliers want more tax money to go into medical care so they can raise prices. It goes on and on.

If the constitution had a clause that it was illegal to take from one and give to another (admittedly difficult to word this effectively), the problem would be reduced drastically. This would mean that government would be a LOT smaller and not have the money to distribute.

"there IS a major crash coming, on the same if not larger level as the .com bubble and the housing bubble."
Oh, I meant like the fall of the Roman empire. We are in a bull market like the 90s, so it seems probably we'll have a bear market like the early 00s, possibly with inflation, deleveraging, and counterparty default in derivatives markets that you describe, i.e. a "financial crisis". I am bearish, with most non-business wealth parked in 1.15% short-term CDs (I used to laugh at those people), a little VWINX, a few tech stocks, and a small short position in SPY. I am a long-term optimist, but the bull market has gone on too long. I anticipate inflation coming on slowly, so I don't worry about the CDs. I have no precious metals, but I wouldn't rule it out. I see them as volatile compared to the protection they offer. I really wish I had a solid business plan that needed new equipment or another office or something. I have no real estate, but I have my eye on it. All the money is made on the buy in RE, and right now there's a RE boom in my area.

That's a lot of words to say I'm a bear. :)

"That was indeed the problem, a total lack of candidates that were worth having."
I say it's the fact the Constitution has no teeth, not an unlucky series of bad people. If the Constitution had powerful institutions that drastically limited taxation, you'd have a different run of a candidates appearing.

Yours is the more optimistic view because you think if we got rid of these bad people, the problems would get better.

"No, wedo NOT accept that, it is forced upon us. The lemmings* may accept that" (emphasis added)
I think you're saying there are more "we" than "lemmings". I lean toward the reason for growth in gov't being close to the reason many people spend more than they make. If you're right, though, someone could organize a plebiscite to reduce gov't spending across the board over 10 years or something, and people would vote to do it.

I actually think if you surveyed people if they want to cut gov't, most people would say yes. Then if you tell them their favorite programs would be cut, they would say that's too extreme.

CG: ""why do we keep getting so many bad guys?"
term2: "the president has been puppet or front man for the power structure of the swamp that runs the government."

I have no evidence, but I really reject the idea of shadowy forces in favor of boring explanations. I think liberty is not the default state for people, and you need put work into the system to fight entropy.

If you're right, if we can just find the shadowing figures, the problem will go away.

If I'm right, we need to give the Constitution teeth, i.e. institutions to stop us from electing people promising to use gov't to fix things, And as ewv says, voters should a basic understanding (ewv would say a philosophy) of the risks of gov't "fixing" things.

"which is why the economy and the stock market have boomed. "
I tend to think it's not related to the president because the stock market was not shooting up while Bush was president, and it's almost a straight line starting when Obama was elected, and that trend continues today along that same line. It's a long-running bull, due to come to an end, and that won't be the fault of whoever's president. Get ready for the histronics when that happens from those whose memory only spans five years.

Uh, yea. Unless it was Star Trek, he was pretty much ignored, deservedly so. However, he did actually blossom in Boston legal, which was very good.

"The people accept the notion of gov't intruding and spending large amounts of money." No, we do NOT accept that, it is forced upon us. The lemmings may accept that as long as that group votes on their pet peeve of the day (gay, abortion, race, etc) which was proven by 8 years of the Obamanation and his outright corruption and theft. Once the truth comes out (and it is slowly being chiseled out of a completely corrupt system by groups like Judaical Watch) there will be some facts to back that up. For example, they got the FBI, whom Comey SWORE had no records of their infamous tarmac meeting, to acknowledge they actually had 50 pages of information. Really? That will turn into 500 pages before it is over. If you have not followed the news on Obama illegal use of EO to spend money he had no authority to do, then you are missing what is so aggravating about all government, the ability to do whatever they want and ignore the Constitutional limits imposed, when they find that the icky act of having to work within that system is just too distasteful. Until that system IS overthrown, we will continue to be milked and treated as peasants by them.

That was indeed the problem, a total lack of candidates that were worth having. Hillary is by no means an expert at anything, except manipulating things to squeeze money from people. One has to hope it will come get her in the end, but it seems an incredible number of people associated with her have a bad end. Trumps great virtue was that of a disruptor of the status quo, which he has certainly done, and done well. That is why neither party supports him, and neither party will stop trying to get rid of him for their own party hack. We have had too many years of party hacks milking the game for their own ends, and the result is the huge debt, regulations that favor one group or another, and a clearly corrupt government that will serve their masters (remember Lois Lerner, who, BTW, never was charged or sent to jail for clearly criminal acts?) at the expense of the people. Better the disruptor than a hack.

Freedom, while you are certainly correct, I just have to believe CG has some rational basis for his assertions.Although it is very hard to see sometimes, unless someone is out and out rude, there is always hope they will see the light. He is no worse off than 90% of the rest of the country, which is why we are in the mess we are today.

That would be the "shadow government" that no one wants to admit is there, but Eisenhower warned of in his farewell speech. He alluded to the "military industrial complex" but it is more.

CG, Nope, I disagree, there IS a major crash coming, on the same if not larger level as the .com bubble and the housing bubble. The current bubble is the debt.derivatives bubble, where 40-50 % of what is being "traded" is a mystery mash of other stuff, with no added value, So, when something like that is traded (it's supposed value is in the "potential gain" of the mish mash) and blows up, all the money it cost is zeroed, and the base items blow up as well. There is 95 trillion in "derivatives" floating around out there, making up the vast bulk of all the fake currency's in use. When it goes, you better hope you have skills, gold/silver, or gemstones.

I suspect the president has been puppet or front man for the power structure of the swamp that runs the government. I think the people revolted from that this time and voted for sanders and trump- much to the chagrin of the swamp

I went a trump rally. The energy was intense. He made people want to make America great again , which is why the economy and the stock market have boomed. It’s a psychological based boom

"Bush was no prize either. The whole war in iraq and afghanistan is very expensive and gets us nowhere. "
If the problem is the presidents we elect, why do we keep getting so many bad guys? If the character of the president determines if the executive branch gets more powerful and how much gov't expands, have we just had a run of bad luck since the income tax passed?

"the federal reserve is cutting back on monetary policy as I understand it."
It's still loose, but tightening. I think you're right about inflation, and the Fed will respond with further tightening. (I've been saying that for eight years, though, and it hasn't happened yet.)

"At least Trump is expanding the economy"
[sarcasm]It's like how President Obama grew the economy and tripled the stock market.[/sarcasm] He did not. The economy isn't controlled by the president, and it's simpler than people think of it. It's people meeting one another's wants and needs. The people who rolled up their sleeves and did it, people who took a risk, grew the economy.

"It would be nice to store wealth SOMEWHERE !!! "
Store wealth in one of those things that monetary policy is causing to shoot up in price. Store it in things that are producing value for paying customers. As you say, the price for commodities like precious metals and developed land fluctuate with supply and demand. If there's a particular thing you're going to buy, there are futures. If it's just a general basket of goods, there are instruments that track that. I'm just against defeatism and victim thinking.

"Sometimes I think that its best to borrow and take advantage of inflation."
This could be rational behavior for people with little net worth to lose. I think maybe some of them do it the same way I eat Taco Bell, knowing it's not a good long-term choice, but making little daily choices to borrow money. I actually try to go easy on junk food, but it's clearly a case of lack of discipline. It causes me to eat more energy than I consume, causes some people to spend more than they make, and it causes people to elect politicians who promise to help us pay for college, retirement, medical care, etc. I'm not sure how to put gov't on a diet-- maybe CoS. I'd try anything.