A Constitutional Convention: American Suicide by Nelson Hultberg

Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 6 months ago to Government
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Excerpt:
"The danger involved here has its roots in the two basic methods to change the Constitution given to us by the Founders in Article V. One is to form joint resolutions in Congress for amendments and present them to the individual states’ legislatures to accept or reject. This is the process by which all 27 amendments have been passed throughout our history. It is deliberate and sound and has served us well. But the second means to change our Constitution is not so sound. In fact it is downright dangerous. It provides for the formation of a Convention of States (COS) to be called to propose and pass amendments whenever two-thirds of the several states desire such a convention.

It is this second method, the COS, that looms ominously before us today. On surface it would seem to be a beneficial procedure to control government in Washington. But if formed, it will be nothing of the kind. Because of the ideological corruption of our citizens over this past century, a COS formed today would almost surely decide to dismantle our present Constitution and give us a totally new document, one geared to accommodate the tenor of the times, which is pervasive collectivism instead of individualism."
SOURCE URL: https://afr.org/constitutional-convention-american-suicide/


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  • Posted by $ CBJ 6 years, 6 months ago
    Last I checked, a constitutional convention could only propose amendments, which would still have to be ratified by three-fourths of the states to become the law of the land. There is no way that 38 states would agree to amendments (or a new constitution) proposed by a collectivist constitutional convention run amuck. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over this issue.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 6 months ago
      When me dino signed an online petition calling for the COS, that's what I thought I was signing off on. I wouldn't trust any collection of people born during the Twentieth Century to rewrite the Constitution. Just look at all the self-serving swamp slugs who now infest the Grand Old Party.
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      • Posted by 6 years, 6 months ago
        The GOP core has been 100% swamp slugs since 1859. As it stands, I wouldn't trust the states to disobey their federal masters unless there is an overwhelming public majority against overhauling the constitution. Since 50% of the people were stupid enough to vote for Hitlery, that 50% have proven they would embrace a new socialist activist constitution. I don't believe the other 50% will be willing to take arms to the streets to defend the Bill of Rights, and that is exactly what it will require since the media will loudly support a communist constitution.
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        • Posted by Storo 6 years, 6 months ago
          If you read Article 5, all Amendments passed by the Convention of States will still need to be ratified by 3/4 ths of the States, or 38 states, in order to become part of the Constitution. Given this, it is unlikely that even a runaway convention could pass anything that is radical, like throwing out the Constitution, or the 2nd Amendment, or the like.
          Secondly, the group at conventionofstates.com has published model legislation for use by the states, the operable part of which reads:

          "Section 1. The legislature of the State of __ hereby applies to Congress, under the provisions of Article V of the Constitution of the United States, for the calling of a convention of the states limited to proposing amendments to the Constitution of the United States that impose fiscal restraints on the federal government, limit the power and jurisdiction of the federal government, and limit the terms of office for its officials and for members of Congress."

          These are the limited purposes for which a convention would be called. Anything else is out of order.
          It is clear that the ruling cabal in Washington have neither the will, stomach, nor the courage to address the issues of over spending and government overreach that concern the American People. It is equally clear that our elected and appointed officials in Washington have as their primary goal to continue "business as usual", and ignoring the real problems of the country and the true needs of the Country.
          This is why I strongly support a Convention of States as outlined above. It's time for the American People to take back our country, and get overreaching, oppressive government under control as our Founding Fathers intended.
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          • Posted by 6 years, 6 months ago
            Half the states voted for Hitlery. Given how much the looters have to lose if the people regain control of government and how easily the looters and statists manipulate the limits of the constitution and manipulate the judgement of officers of the court, I have no confidence in your arguments, Storo. I think we both want the same thing, but I think it unlikely to be achieved peacefully because the statists will use force if necessary to retain power.
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 6 months ago
          Me dino will never understand the twisted thinking of enabling libtard voters and there being so many of them.
          It is plain as day that the arrogant Evil Hag is as crooked as felons come with out in the open multiple counts of criminal acts.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 6 months ago
    An interesting article, but long on hyperbole and hypotheticals. Until an actual convention is called, I'm not going to lose any sleep.

    If a Constitutional Convention is called, here are a few things I'd like to see proposed:

    1. Elimination of the 17th Amendment and a return of Senators being elected by their respective State Legislatures.
    2. Elimination the 12th Amendment, re-establishing that the Vice President is the runner-up in the Presidential election. (This would give real teeth to any threat of Impeachment and Conviction and make the Vice President more of an active role in the Senate. This would also encourage other political parties.)
    3. Amendment to the 14th Amendment, clarifying that the US Constitution and its protections extend ONLY to US citizens and legal guests on US soil.
    4. Repeal of the 16th Amendment and apportioning taxes to the States by Census for Federal budgeting purposes.
    5. New Amendment placing the burden of supporting members of Congress (salaries, staff, offices, etc.) on the respective States (to replace the 27th Amendment).
    6. Amendment to the 20th Amendment prohibiting the participation in Congress or the Executive Branch of outgoing members (to prevent lame duck actions). Also institutes a freeze on Executive Recess Appointments during this same period.
    7. New Amendment restricting political fundraising by candidates to moneys from voters residing in and legally qualified to vote in their respective Congressional Districts.
    8. New Amendment adjusting the size of the House of Representative, increasing the number to one Representative for every 200,000 citizens per State. Also provide for the House to meet and conduct business by teleconference.
    9. New Amendment mandating a balanced budget to include debt service.
    10. New Amendment eliminating the Federal Reserve and prohibiting adoption of a non-governmental body with powers to set either monetary or fiscal policy.

    Feel free to add your own.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 6 months ago
      #5 would re-create the problem that made it necessary to do away with the Articles of Confederation.

      #7 would make safe districts even safer, thus making it harder to remove incumbents. For example, we could no longer even try to get rid of Nancy Pelosi unless we wanted to begin by individually moving to her district.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 6 months ago
        5. A valid argument, even though this nation is more than 200 years removed from the Articles. You can bet there would be a lot less spending, however!

        #7. I can't - and shouldn't - control the representatives from another part of the country no matter how much I agree or disagree with their politics. Nancy Pelosi doesn't represent me and I don't get to vote for her. And if I don't get to vote for her and she doesn't represent me personally, I shouldn't be meddling in her election. This is how Bloomberg and Soros have been campaigning to fill selected Senate and House seats, most recently the Virginia Governor's race.
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    • Posted by Riftsrunner 6 years, 6 months ago
      You do realize that #2 would make Hillary the Veep, right? Do you think the Dems would hesitate for one second after Trump was sworn in to try to impeach him everyday to get Hillary into the White House's Oval Office?
      #8 would severely unbalance the House as California would have 197 representatives almost 4 times their current number, while Montana would only gain 2 for 3 total.

      Those were just the two that jumped out at me.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 6 months ago
        2. Let's not consider merely one hypothetical, but several of them. Can you imagine how Presidential elections would change from the existing two-party system if the runner-up got rewarded instead of nothing? And can you imagine how this might have affected things if Mitt Romney were the VP during Obama's second term while there were active cries for Obama's Impeachment for legitimate abuses of power? What if Sanders had remained in the race for the Democrats after the DNC shenanigans had been uncovered? And let's remember, that the Vice President can be impeached just like the President for abuses of power. Can you imagine if Hillary were President how the Justice Department wouldn't just be letting her antics as Sec State slide any longer because they'd get to replace HER as well? Overall, I think there are a lot of positives to this one.

        #8. Actually, I've run the numbers and it doesn't unbalance things as much as you think, especially when you consider that even in California they have pockets of Republicans. What this does in aggregate is actually de-emphasize the big cities' stranglehold on the current voting process and encourage more representation from rural areas which are more commonly non-Democrat. You get more accurate representation.

        The second part of #8 is that you greatly reduce the effects of lobbying in the House because you spread the influence out significantly. Lobbying becomes much more expensive. (This one would need to be tied to #1 especially to have a beneficial effect on the Senate.) For similar reasons, (barring #7 above) "interference" by outside PAC's and big-money donors in House races would be severely blunted. Again, lots of positives here.
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 6 years, 6 months ago
      I have seen a lot of these on the list of possible amendments. The balanced budget and term limits seem the highest ones so far, but I like the Senator idea (1) and 2, I do not think we could do 10, since we have fiat currency that has no backing, so we would just implode the economy completely.
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      • Posted by 6 years, 6 months ago
        Its just a bandaid on a severed limb unless #10 is done, imo. The banking cartel is the root cause of at least 90% of the problems going on in America and the world today.
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 6 years, 6 months ago
          That may be true, but it is the same thing as if you are so far in debt you can never pay it back, going back to a gold std would just mean we are really, really poor as well as probably shed light on the fact that most of the supposed gold has already "disappeared". I cannot see a way #10 could ever happen, AND I do not think that was needed anyways, I do not reacall anything in the founding documents that created it, wasn't it a product of the greatest looter in history (FDR)?
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  • Posted by bsmith51 6 years, 6 months ago
    Seeing the threat, George Soros and his ilk have recently funded considerable media and other opposition to this movement. I spotted disinformation here immediately by the author's label of a Constitutional Convention, which it would not be.

    What it would be is a Convention of States, called by law by Congress at the lawful demand of the required quorum of states to establish and discuss - and possibly act on - one single matter considered for resolution to repair a problem at the national level.

    Each state legislature would appoint one voting delegate to place his/her vote on any matter. Most state legislatures are conservative.

    Imagine the hope for our nation if it were resolved that welfare is solely for the states' individual authorities and unconstitutional at the national level. This would more than any other issue decapitate the dream of American socialism.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 6 years, 6 months ago
    According to the organizers of COS, that is NOT on the agenda. The agenda has already been set and pitched to the states.
    Could all that change?...maybe, but the states that have entered so far are unlikely to change that agenda making it difficult for other states to stick their mentally impaired fingers into the works.
    We have yet to see a leftest state join the convention yet as far as I know. My state, CT., is probably the dumbest among them and rejected it...needless to say, we have a Lot of stupid lefties in our kakistocracy.

    Am I being too optimistic?...Probably.
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  • Posted by Storo 6 years, 6 months ago
    The excerpt above is simply wrong for reasons stated in my earlier post below. This is simply misinformation that is either from a source that doesn't understand Article 5 of the Constitution, or from a source connected to the Washington Ruling Class cabal.
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  • Posted by ArtIficiarius 6 years, 6 months ago
    The Constitutional Separation of Powers between the Executive, Judicial, and Legislative branches must be preserved. Stripping the Rules and Regulations practices away from the Executive branch and replacing them with express responsibilities and restraints in the Legislative branch would be a BIG improvement.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 6 years, 5 months ago
    If I had to think of an analogy to this possibility (of a Constitutional Convention), it would be the smell of a Parliament cigarette (1) that fell into a city street near a garbage dumpster filled overpriced profiterole refuse, (2) that was dried out by a bum, (3) that was kept in a grimy Patriots stocking cap, (4) along with the resultant odor after he lighted and smoked it.
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  • Posted by chad 6 years, 6 months ago
    Since the original constitution is rarely conformed to if it were replaced the method might be different or more dramatic but the results will still be the same.
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  • Posted by Casebier 6 years, 6 months ago
    Perhaps a solution would be to first pass a constitutional amendment through the time honored Congressional method that would restrict a constitutional convention to considering only those proposed objectives in an agenda approved in advance by the state legislatures calling the convention, and providing that any other changes proposed at the convention be not considered.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 6 years, 6 months ago
    Well, Mark Levin on his radio show claims that that
    would not happen. From what he said, I gather that
    he means that it would mean passage of certain
    Amendments that would then be submitted to the States for their approval. But I think that it is probably not worth the risk.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 6 months ago
    That certainly id a negative outlook. It means that those of us who believe in the Constitution as written by the founders would be dead on arrival if a Constitutional convention were to be held today.So...we've already lost?Perhaps so. That means we are fighting a strategic retreat trying to keep the USA as close to its founding while it crumbles beneath our feet.
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  • Posted by $ gharkness 6 years, 6 months ago
    I've long said, and it appears I am about to be found correct, that the seeds of America's destruction are baked in the cake. If it doesn't happen now, it will happen eventually. It's not often I say this: "I'm glad I'm old, so I won't have to see it." However that doesn't change the sadness I feel for my grandchildren.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 6 years, 6 months ago
    I agree with this article. The original Constitutional Convention passed motions violative of the instructions of at least half the States that sent them to Philadelphia. Furthermore, they chose to establish the new Constitution "between those States so ratifying the same."

    The Declaration of Independence says in relevant part, "Whenever any government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it." Therefore a COS would be plenipotentiary, and no instruction could possibly limit it.
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    • Posted by IndianaGary 6 years, 6 months ago
      The Declaration of Independence is does not govern; the Constitution does. A Convention of the States (which is not a Constitutional Convention) first requires 2/3 (34) of the states to be called and, for any amendment proposed, requires 3/4 (38) of either the legislatures or State Conventions (determined by Congress) to pass.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 6 years, 6 months ago
        Oh, but the Declaration does govern the powers and the plenipotentiarity of delegates to a "convention for proposing amendments." The reason: it is the only document that does so govern. The Constitution, and more specifically Article Five, are absolutely silent on the matter.

        Patrick Henry "smelt a rat" and did not attend the original Constitutional Convention. I smell the same rat.

        No institution can survive a second exposure to the process that created it.
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        • Posted by $ nickursis 6 years, 6 months ago
          Wait, what about the 3/4ths of the state? You don't need to have any rules written when the states were the arbitors of the amendments. If 3/4 of the states want no alcohol, then you get it. Didn't work worth piss, crated crime, but made all the conservative Christians and several special interest groups happy, for a while. If you smell a rat in trying to fix an horribly corrupt system, then the same system must smell like a septic tank. I will take the rat for now.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 6 years, 6 months ago
            The precedent of the ratification of the Constitution itself (see Article VII) means that the three-fourths clause is of no moment. Have you never heard of an Amendment in the Nature of a Substitution? That's how Congress passed the ACA, by substituting the entire bill for an original, unrelated appropriations bill. Similarly, an Amendment in Nature of Substitution could have a clause saying, "The ratification by conventions in X number of States, shall be sufficient to establish this Constitution of the Newstates between those States so ratifying the same." Then you would have two different countries, and a "snowball effect" essentially compelling ratification of a new document.

            I repeat: no institution can survive a second exposure to the process that created it. It's like throwing a coin into a vat of the metal out of which someone originally made the coin.
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  • -1
    Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 6 months ago
    [Sarcasm]We have to be very careful with a CoS. I mean, it could throw out the entire protections of the Constitution. The president could be passing executive orders and getting us into wars as if the Exec branch were Congress. The Fed gov't could force states and cities to comply with federal initiatives if they want their tax dollars back. We might even see calls to ban guns, restrict protest, and search through all communications traffic with only a flimsy system to protect against misuse. There would be nothing to stop the gov't from saying you're free from search where there's expectation of privacy, but not if you're travelling by car, airplane, train, or any modern transportation method. They could use that to impose drug prohibition on local gov'ts that are anti-prohibition. We could actually end up with gov't spending accounting for a fourth of GDP, with heavy influence in all sectors of the economy. At that point, the gov't might build a network of military bases and secret prisons around the world, making us look like the Roman empire. There would be nothing to stop them from passing a law saying you need to buy "insurance" against needing things you know are coming like birth control or flu shots. Without protections against takings, they could seize your stuff if they even suspect it was somehow related to a crime.

    If it should ever came to this, discourse would turn into a struggle among groups. People who live in separate places minding their own business could be turned against one anther for political gain. Politicians could promise urbanites policies to make rural people uncomfortable, and then the rural gas station owner who previous liked those people and their imports that need high-test suddenly wants to see the city people feeling uncomfortable for a change. Gov't would have the power to do it too. People could go to town making their neighbors uncomfortable, but not the gov't. They need the jobs from the military base, their kids' free college, someone to pay for their medical expenses, the childhood nutrition programs, the gov't paying for their mom's nursing care (how dare they try to "take" her wealth to pay for it!!), all the jobs that come with having so much of the population in prison or on probation of some sort, all the SBIR grants (mostly for war). So they'd steer clear of all that and just stick to calling their neighbors names.

    This nightmare scenario could happen in the case of a run-away convention.[/Sarcasm]
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  • -1
    Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 6 months ago
    It seems like the current Constitution isn't limiting gov't power, so we don't have much to lose. If they said leave all issues, including repsecting basoc rights, up to the majority, we wouldn't be in that worse a position than today.

    People keep pointing out that most people voted for Clinton in the last presidential election. I voted for her and went to her findraisers. I hold her in high regard. On the night I met my wife I invited her to a non-partisan event where Hilary Clinton was giving the keynote. The majority voted for Hilary, but hopefully most of us don't want tyranny of the majority.
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 6 years, 6 months ago
      It does if you follow it...it's Our fault bub, we let them get away with it. We should of realized the progressives were creating useless idiots in an attempt to one up Stalin.

      again...I did not mark you down.
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      • -1
        Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 6 months ago
        "It does if you follow it"
        I learned this fairy tale that the Constitution would make people follow it, preventing the majority from acting like a mob. How is this possible? I still remember the grade-school answer: The founders set up separate branches with checks and balances. So according to this fairy tale, it doesn't depend on people being virtuous. The whole thing is set up to deal with human frailty. So I find it so empty to say the whole system would work if weren't for some villains. Those villains existed 300 years ago.

        With the gov't so heavily involved in something like a third of the economy, I have a somewhat "desperate" view that expanding gov't is a looming problem that will destroy the country or at best have it plod along, managing the problems as they come. I absolutely do not want a revolution or major crisis. There's no guarantee they'll reduce gov't. There's no guarantee a Convention would solve it either. But what we have is not working, and I'm a little desperate, willing to accept semi-radical action to avoid a worse crisis many decades later.

        ewv and other say what I learned about the Constitution is a fairy tale. The system depends on citizens with a philosophy of a democratic Republic with limited powers. Maybe that's true. But if there's some way people can set up institutions that give "teeth" to the Constitution, I'm willing to take some risk for that.

        If success depends on those of who voted for Hilary Clinton not being the majority, then we're doomed because we are the majority. I really, really hope there's an even larger majority that detests the majority acting like a mob.
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        • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 6 years, 6 months ago
          " fairy tale that the Constitution would make people follow it,"
          No one said, not even our forefathers, that the constitution would "Make" people follow it.
          Surprise!...That job was up to US!!! making sure that our representation Would Follow it and if they didn't?...can you say RECALL!!!

          Face it...WE failed epicly. Oh...and we were never meant to be a demoncrapic republic. We were to be a Federal Republic...but we just couldn't keep it. There is Nothing wrong with the constitution, it's the best compromise to date concerning governments and the creatures that would be attracted to it.

          Maybe you could conjure up an AI, Circuit, that would ZAP the humanoids that sneak in under our radar, thereby keeping them in line.

          Maybe we should adopt a new amendment charging those that don't follow the constitution with Hanging till dead on the White House Lawn?

          PS...that's what Morals are for, that's what the 10 suggestions were about, and don't give me that crap about mankind is inherently corrupt and will be tempted by "Power". Maybe Non-Conscious parasitical Humanoids but Not "Conscious Human Beings" and we are the majority here in America...but a minority in the whole world combined.

          Now maybe you might appreciate that mankind has survived this long under those odds.

          That's my observation and I am sticking to it.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 6 months ago
            I do not understand most of this, but I think you're saying you are a against a CoS because you think the Constitution is fine. You think the issue is with how it's executed, and no writing on paper can force people to follow it. That could be.

            As I said, I'm approaching it from a bit of "desperation". I see our not following it as a looming problem that we can plod along with but will eventually become a worse problem. Desperation is not a good starting point.
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