When politicians, Lincoln included, I tend to look for hidden agendas. One could easily see that a big reason for not allowing secession is that the power of the union (and therefore Lincoln's power) would be rereduced.

That may have been a factor or even the main motivator for some people, but I don't know of documentation to support that as a primary argument for Lincoln. Lincoln wrote and spoke extensively about his legal arguments. Much of it was tied into his own constitutional oath and his obligation to ensure a Republican form of government. Re the oath-- he reasoned that if states could secede, then they could secede and secede and secede, and eventually there would/could be no federal government and no need for the federal Constitution. Therefore, to uphold the Constitution's very existence, he concluded no state could secede. Second, re the Republican government clause, he reasoned that the only way to ensure all "current" citizens had a republican form of government was to prevent any place wherein a federal citizen lived (i.e., any state) from seceding because, once the state had seceded, the federal government would no longer be able to control the form of government in that state.

He had some other similar legal arguments, but they were centered around the Constitutional issue of whether or not a state could secede. Lincoln did not "free the slaves" in the Civil War or engage in a war solely to end slavery. The non-seceding states kept their slaves until the Reconstruction amendments because the Emancipation Proclamation was a tool used to deprive the ENEMY (i.e., seceded states) of a resource--slaves. States that didn't secede, however, retained their slaves. Thus, ironically, the Reconstruction amendments were necessary to end slavery because Constitutional amendments were necessary to amend the Constitution. The South was right on that point, at a minimum.

There's a whole lot more... but that's a little more depth on the side note...

Interesting. I have always kind of thought that the north was jealous of the south and didnt want to lose the wealth of the south from the 'union'. It was all about money in the end. Kind of like why Russia doesnt want to accept that Ukraine and its rich farmlands wanted to be on its own.

I agree to an extent -- the core reason for the fight (even from Lincoln's perspective) was whether or not states could secede. However, the "tipping point" issue for many people, though not all, in the South to support secession was the North's attempts to limit slavery without amending the Constitution (i.e., "changing" the Constitution without actually changing the Constitution). For that reason, I understand when people oversimplify and think the Civil War was "about" slavery--though for the life of me I cannot accept the same people REJECTING the fact that the Civil War was just as much (or more) "about" the ability to secede. Anywho... kind of a side note...

I am disturbed by the idea that the confederacy was in the wrong in the civil way. They just wanted OUT of the union. It was the union that attacked the confederacy and demolished them. Seems to me that the south should have been free to secede without being attacked. Given that, take down the Ulysses Grant statues instead of the Robert E Lee statues if you are going to take down any at all. History is history, and we should learn from it, not try to erase it.

Notably, Lee had a "change of heart" AFTER the events for which he has become (in)famous and for which he is hated. Contrarily, Bill has never even admitted to his horrors. Seems like a much more compelling argument to remove that statute of, say, rapist Brock Turner, than someone who "turned and repented" (to use a religious comparison).

Let's look forward to it being a memorial.

I find it odd there's a statue of him called a "statue" while he's living. I think of statues as being reserved for the dead.

I find it odd there's a statue of him called a "statue" while he's living. I think of statues as being reserved for the dead.

Hi thetuxcat,
We are likely to see plenty of the laters looter face.
As the snowflakes trip over themselves trying to honor the great and powerful Obomination.
Idiots.

+1 One magic animal. https://youtu.be/Tsdmqhn50uM

YES!!! It should come down, along with any others of clinton or obama!

Should statue come down? Is pig pork?

I can't think of any redeeming qualities from his character or behavior.

If you want to use violent evil people, then Che goes to the top of the list, with Billie as an assistant.

I would like to see the bill board thing go up, and see if they tear that down too, and just keep putting it back up...would drive them nuts...

Yes! Especially in light of the comment Clinton made about Barak Obama being heard saying Obama should be fetching coffee for everyone (alluding to the fact that he shouldn't be considered a "rising star" in the Democrat party). Racism? Just a bit I think!

" It seemed to be a sort of monster, or symbol representing a monster, of a form which only a diseased fancy could conceive. If I say that my somewhat extravagant imagination yielded simultaneous pictures of an octopus, a dragon, and a human caricature, I shall not be unfaithful to the spirit of the thing. A pulpy, tentacled head surmounted a grotesque and scaly body with rudimentary wings; but it was the general outline of the whole which made it most shockingly frightful. Behind the figure was a vague suggestion of a Cyclopean architectural background." H.P. Lovecraft
Now for me , back to the story.
Edited To sound, but which he attempted to render by the almost unpronounceable jumble of letters, “Cthulhu fhtagn

I just love that name. It is the greatest alien name of all. H.P.'s names for his weird creatures is unsurpassed, but the water-god's is the creepiest.

Ah, gee. That is so sweet.

Hey, I wouldn't have wrote that extra bit if you had not kicked off my train of thought.

Thanks Herb7734,
Might as well nail in a wooden stake for good measure. The imagery of a huge dark tentacled winged monster represents the shadow kakistocrats to a T.

Egotistealers.

I know rape is "some sort of felony". So is interfering with the DOJ. And using official govt positions to enrich yourself through bribery and graft or favors.
Oh yes and murder.

100% take it down so far.