Bitcoin hits 3700 today

Posted by khalling 4 years, 10 months ago to Economics
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  • Posted by fosterj717 4 years, 10 months ago
    An "interesting" point to consider is whether or not the economic powers of the ever encroaching "New World Order" will allow the democratization of "money" to continue?

    How will these "lockstep" central bankers continence such a way to circumvent the "bankers" control? My guess is that the powers that be will not allow that to happen therefore, Bitcoin and other "crypto" currencies might succumb to the control of these powerful entities.

    Interesting point to be noted! There are now only three world economies that "DO NOT" have a Central Bank presence? These three (interestingly) are; North Korea, Cuba and Iran. There were until recently four with the 4th being Syria. Isn't it funny, we are essentially at varying states of war with all three of the remaining?!

    World domination can only happen if the Bankers will it (remember, they make money by making loans and the best loans are to made to governments and the best way of making large loans to governments is to get countries into a perpetual state of war!). Note: During the American Civil War, the Bank of London lent to both the North as well as the South! Keeping the war going worked to their advantage because of political leverage and wealth accumulation!

    There you have it folks! The Central Banks have the Con and the rest is going to be easy (for the NWO that is)!
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 4 years, 10 months ago
    What relevace is 3700? Whete did this occur? What backs a bitcoin to make it worth something? A nations currency has value because its backed by gold or the country's potential to produce. If bitcoin is backed by the wealthy or intrnational companies standing on traditional currency, isn't it just a house of cards, scheme to get real dollars for virtual digits?
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    • Posted by 4 years, 10 months ago
      it's above 4000 today.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 4 years, 10 months ago
        Okay, but that doesn't answer any questions or ease any of my concerns.

        from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin)

        "Bitcoin is a worldwide cryptocurrency and digital payment system invented by an unknown programmer, or a group of programmers, under the name Satoshi Nakamoto. It was released as open-source software in 2009.

        The system is peer-to-peer, and transactions take place between users directly, without an intermediary. These transactions are verified by network nodes and recorded in a public distributed ledger called a blockchain. Since the system works without a central repository or single administrator, bitcoin is called the first decentralized digital currency.

        Besides being created as a reward for mining, bitcoin can be exchanged for other currencies, products, and services in legal or black markets."


        Reading its general description (yes, I know its wikipedia) raises more red flags than confidence with me. No one knows who made it, set blocks are made who's distribution halves every so often, and there is nothing tangible about it... Yay! its at 4,000??????

        Anyone else see problems with this?
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        • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
          I think to those of us who have "faith" in Bitcoin, it boils down to the principle of what it represents. Bitcoin cannot exist without individuals believing in the morality and necessity of a decentralized money system. It doesn't have to specifically be Bitcoin, but the entire concept of this takes power away from government, politicians, and banks, and puts the power squarely in the hands of each individual end user who decides they want to use it. It is the closest thing we have had to a truly free market monetary system since the move away from gold and silver coins, and it is MUCH more practical in a modern computerized age.
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          • Posted by $ TomB666 4 years, 10 months ago
            As I see the point you pose, is it more or less reasonable to believe in Bitcoin then the dollar, neither of which are backed by anything tangible? Just so no one misunderstands what I mean about the dollar, years ago the US paper currency had a statement on it that it was redeemable in lawful money at the Treasury or Federal Reserve. That statement is no longer on US paper currency. The people who do redeem paper currency are those who trust it as a value in exchange for services and products they provide. The government accepts it in payments to itself and will not give you anything tangible in exchange for it (other then not putting you in jail for not paying taxes or such.)
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            • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
              Yes exactly. Most people do not realize that nothing other than the "full faith and credit of the U.S." backs our current monetary system in America. Other than the fact that at this very moment more people "believe in" the US Dollar than Bitcoin, there is very little difference in the two. Both are essentially bullshit. I however choose to put more faith in a free market money system than a government backed money. But I also invest in bullets as well, knowing "the lights" could go out someday....
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          • Posted by j_IR1776wg 4 years, 10 months ago
            How do Bitcoins protect one's wealth from the grasping hands of governments? Don't governments impose income or sales taxes when the Bitcoins are converted into government backed currency or products? Most of us do not how to transact on the black market.
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            • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
              There are many ways to use or convert Bitcoin. Some are under the prying eyes of the government and some are not. Even if you use a reputable exchange like Coinbase, it is still up to you to report it "properly" on your taxes. Specifically in the U.S., Bitcoin is treated as a capital gains asset, not a currency. Any time you buy something with Bitcoin or convert it to US dollars, you are supposed to report it as income if you saw a gain. It is a little more protected than money in a bank account, because it is harder for the government to "seize" Bitcoin depending on how you are storing it.
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    • Posted by ycandrea 4 years, 10 months ago
      It is no different than any other currency in the world. There is nothing backing any of it except the value we place on it and the use in purchasing stuff.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 4 years, 10 months ago
        The GDP of a nation provides solidity to currency, even if gold isn't the standard (and gold seems to be reasserting itself now). While the stock market is subject to consumer confidence and fears, the productivity of a nation is a very real, solid valuable commodity.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 10 months ago
      Non-governmental, non-regulated liquid currency. It is protected by gobs of crypto (bitcoin mining), It is backed like a stock. Its value is very high because people want to use it, and continue to want it more. If you don't like it's volatile value, keep you money in another currency and use bitcoin when you want a private transaction...of course buying bitcoin will not be private on one side.
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  • Posted by edweaver 4 years, 10 months ago
    So , what do you want to discuss? I'm no expert on Bitcoin but intrigued and would like to learn. What is your knowledge?
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    • Posted by dbhalling 4 years, 10 months ago
      I am not sure what Kaila wants to discuss, but it is becoming clear that bitcoin is becoming digital gold. It has the potential to end Central Banking and change the finance sector so radically it will not be recognizable. Right now the finance sector of the US takes % of the economy. That is absurd as finance is a facilitator not a direct creator..

      Bitcoin also has the potential to undermine the NSA and the whole tax system
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      • Posted by edweaver 4 years, 10 months ago
        Bitcoin sounds like a good thing then. Of course as soon as it affects the tax system & the NSA there will likely be new regulations. Maybe even before, since the banking cartel is entrenched in our government. How does Bitcoin survive?
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        • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
          It survives because it cannot be stopped, short of blacking out the internet.
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          • Posted by jimjamesjames 4 years, 10 months ago
            ...and my question is, what happens when the electricity goes out? For good? My silver will still be silver..........
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            • Posted by dbhalling 4 years, 10 months ago
              When that happens you are screwed anyway. Even bullets are not going to help much. You can't eat bullets and you cannot shot them fast enough if a mob wants your food.
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              • Posted by jimjamesjames 4 years, 10 months ago
                I live in the middle of Wyoming. There are no mobs.

                Well, there might be on the 21st, Eclipse day. We are in one of the best places and every hotel, motel, RV park has been booked for many months, one RV park has reservations from New Zealand and Germany.
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              • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
                No, you can't eat bullets, but you can use them as a source of barter for food. They will be worth much more than a silver coin if food is scarce. And of course you can hunt with them, and in a truly desperate starvation situation you can use them to acquire food by "less than rational" means.
                As far as a mob goes, I have enough guns, bullets, and friends/relatives to fire them that I could stop a pretty decent sized mob. I live out in the country, so I can set up perimeters.... City folk are screwed though, that's why they need to be prepared to bug-out.
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  • Posted by chad 4 years, 10 months ago
    No one knows who created it, governs it or if they might switch it off for some reason. It sounds riskier to me than the counterfeit fiat currency we are forced to use. It works only so long as the confidence in the coin exists, hence the name 'con game.' I think it is less reliable but that is like comparing one serial killer to another. . . .which is worse?
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 4 years, 10 months ago
    Thanks to Kaila Halling for helping me to recollect this quote

    "If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose—because it contains all the others—the fact that they were the people who created the phrase “to make money.” No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity—to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created." p. 93, The Meaning of Money, For the New Intellectual."

    The very nature of bitcoin, how it is design to function, by anonymous programmers, creates a fixed amount of wealth (a static quantity), creating deliberate scarcity similar to the notion that there is one pie and everyone is working/struggling to get it.

    "Bitcoins are mathematically generated as the computers in this network execute difficult number-crunching tasks, a procedure known as Bitcoin “mining”. The mathematics of the Bitcoin system were set up so that it becomes progressively more difficult to “mine” Bitcoins over time, and the total number that can ever be mined is limited to around 21 million. There is therefore no way for a central bank to issue a flood of new Bitcoins and devalue those already in circulation." http://www.economist.com/bitcoinexpla...

    Is this not the fixed amount of wealth, created by anonymous people, that goes against "to make money" that the quote above celebrates?

    I am not against Bitcoins, however I do remember junk bonds, and the dot com bubble bursts. People are converting actual money, creating debt, to get something that simply does not exist, and never has existed, outside the fact that a group of people believe it has value.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 4 years, 10 months ago
      AJ you fail to recognize the incredible intellectual achievement that it took to create bitcoin. And unlike the technology growth in the 90s, which created a lot of real value, the government cannot screw it up.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 4 years, 10 months ago
        But the anonymity of its creator and the limitation of its number of "shares" (21 million) creates the exact same consolidation of wealth that Rand opposed in her statement (about what she though distinctive about America and Americans) - have's and have-not's fighting over the same fixed pool of wealth. When this bubble goes bust, and it eventually will, anyone with holdings will be screwed without any hope of recompense. The ingenuity to develop something of his nature isn't lost on me. However strong the algorithmic encryption, any of them no matter how many bits it is, it will be cracked in in time and so will its replacement; thats the nature of technology and hackers.

        Reminder: those doing the cracking are less than honest.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 4 years, 10 months ago
      Actually that quote came from Francisco's money speech in Atlas Shrugged - 4 years before For The New Intellectual was published.

      "If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose—because it contains all the others—the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.’ No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity—to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.
      "Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide—as, I think, he will.
      "Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns—or dollars. Take your choice—there is no other—and your time is running out."
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 4 years, 10 months ago
        I did say that I couldn't recollect and credited Kaila :)

        In any event, aside from noting the citation, the point being made is still there. Isn't Bitcoin the opposite of that which praised about the distinction between America/Americans and the old world?
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        • Posted by freedomforall 4 years, 10 months ago
          Francisco saw money as a tool. The fed destroys the life's savings of millions of people by inflating the currency to their own advantage. Bitcoin is a tool for trade. How man uses it or manipulates it is yet to be seen. It's not a fixed pool either. More bitcoins are created every day via investment of capital in hardware and electric power. It can't be done on a whim (or to increase their own power and wealth like the fed does.) The banksters and government entities they manipulate are the biggest threat to bitcoin, imo.

          (I just re-read that part of AS a few days ago, so I couldn't resist relating its source;^)
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        • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
          I am not sure that one can actually "create" wealth. If wealth is something that can be measured then it must be finite in some way. Accumulating any amount of something that is not finite will never generate a significant amount of anything. With that being said, for something you accumulate to be called wealth, it must be acquired, not created. We use the term "created" in a sense that, in America, we have the ability to trade our efforts and talents for an accumulation of "wealth" in money or possessions. Many countries greatly restrict the ability to do that. We have virtually no limits to the amount of wealth we can accumulate here in the U.S. Bitcoin gives a "collector of wealth" the ability to properly measure and hold his wealth in a truly capitalistic way. If we store our acquired wealth in the Dollar, we take a bigger risk of men in power devaluing our wealth in any way they deem fit.
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  • Posted by giallopudding 4 years, 10 months ago
    I think most realists expect government controllers to eventually regulate away the beauty, efficiency and value of crypto currencies into oblivion. But until they do, there is an unparalleled gold rush of profiteering happening. The dream of a totally decentralized currency sells itself.
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    • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
      There really isn't much more governments can do other than to "ban" it in their country, which just ends up turning a bunch of their citizens into "criminals". There is not really a way for government to regulate it at it's core, they can only stifle the development of exchanges and financial products that can spurn from Bitcoin.
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      • Posted by giallopudding 4 years, 10 months ago
        True! Thanks for that thought...makes my day. Imagine the frustration of bureaucrats finding themselves incapable of stealing wealth for a change. Now, if we can avoid being like Thailand...
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 4 years, 10 months ago
    While I like the concept of a currency that is not dependent on a government, until the major reason for hearing about Bitcoin is no longer about some hacker holding companies hostage until their ransom is paid in Bitcoin, Bitcoin will remain a footnote.
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    • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
      So you will only allow your opinion of Bitcoin to be controlled by what you read in the headlines of media? There are many major reasons for hearing about Bitcoin, however the mainstream media has no reason to discuss them unless they are sensationally negative (hackers, etc.). There are thousands of articles written by smaller media outlets that discuss the exciting monetary paradigm transformation that Bitcoin will likely produce. Don't listen to only what is thrust in front of you.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 4 years, 10 months ago
        Reason Magazine had an excellent, and very thorough, discussion of Bitcoin about a year ago.

        I like the idea of Bitcoin. It is quite similar to what you would expect in Galt's Gulch. However, I have yet to pay for a service that advertised Bitcoin as a payment method, and I have been on the Internet since 1985 - long before it was popular.

        I heard about Bitcoin before most of you, back in 2011, and was very near to investing in it. If I had invested in it then, I would have lost 90% of my investment in the next few months. That's a little too volatile for me.
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        • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
          Actually I did invest very early on, and watched the value drop considerably. I got plenty of ridicule and advice to sell it and take my lumps. I knew it was the infancy of the technology, so I let it ride. Obviously that has worked out quite nicely and my retirement is all but set at 44 years old.

          What people don't realize is that Bitcoin is STILL in it's infancy. It has a few technological upgrades happening that need to continue to happen before it can replace Visa as a regular means of purchasing everything. It is still slow and clunky as a means of daily payment. Once it is able to be used as a daily payment device, it is going to make these prices seem extraordinarily cheap.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 4 years, 10 months ago
            Congratulations! My retirement is also set at age 50, although if I had invested in Bitcoin, I would be able to fund my own company, rather than just buy my own equipment.

            While Bitcoin is in its infancy, I do think it is finally past the point where exchanges are going to just disappear like they did from 2011-2013. It was a little too risky for me at that point in my life. Once again, congratulations!
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            • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
              Ha, thank you, I just wish I would have bought a lot more than I did... I was like you, in that I was skeptical. My investment was pretty minimal, but it was so cheap back then that it worked out in the long run. I still to this day am nervous all the time because of what it has grown to. I have a weekly struggle with "should I sell and call it a day" or keep on letting it ride. I have always realized the risk, but I still believe the reward will be dramatically higher than it is today.

              And congrats to you on 50! That was (and still is) my ultimate retirement goal. My "wants" still exceed my means enough to just give it up right now, so 50 is where I have penciled in now.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 4 years, 10 months ago
    It's trading value generally follows the need to launder dirty money (the primary purpose for it).

    Bitcoin is one of the most volatile commodities out there - because it has no underlying assets. Granted the dollar doesn't either, but at least it's backed by the 'full faith and credit of the US Government' and anyone take a dollar for something.

    Try to offload those bitcoins somewhere... not very easy to actually do I'm sure.

    To each their own, but I'm old enough to have remembered many rises and falls of many markets. I'm considerably more careful with my life's savings - as all Gen X'ers are. We have too often been stuck holding the bag and paying for it for the Boomers and the Millennials it seems like.

    It was worth 8 cents in July of 2010, then $1.00 in Feb 2011, $31.00 in July of 2011, and $2.00 in December of 2011. It's interest follows the news cycle running some story about it, and how many terrorists want to transmit some form of untraceable currency at the moment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...

    While someone that bought at 8 cents is no-doubt very happy right now, there is still the question of what you can actually do with it. Converting it into tangible goods or services can be quite difficult.
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    • Posted by unitedlc 4 years, 10 months ago
      Your statement of trading value being tied to the need to launder dirty money is patently false. That was one common early use of cryptocurrency, but a very small use for it now.

      Offloading Bitcoins is extraordinarily easy. There are many exchanges located all of the world, including regulated exchanges in the United States that allow you to sell (convert) your Bitcoins into U.S. Dollars, or any other currency you wish.

      Putting all of you life savings in any one thing is never a good idea. So, no, I wouldn't recommend putting your life savings in Bitcoin. Diversify.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 4 years, 10 months ago
      -1 The real value of it is a store of value that the government cannot screw with.. If governments were not inflating their money and stealing other people's money then there would be no point for bitcoin.
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      • Posted by scojohnson 4 years, 10 months ago
        It correlates closely to the rise of legalization of recreational pot actually... there are over 1000 medical dispensaries in LA for example, more than the number of coffee shops. Once recreational becomes legal, they need a better medium of transfer (for safety) than cash-only. They can't really use a bank account, it's illegal under federal law and assets can be seized.

        The technologist that I am sees the fragility of it, if you lose your bitcoin file, your assets kind of disappear with it.
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