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Seeing the Wealth Leave California, Firsthand

Posted by $ Abaco 6 years, 7 months ago to Economics
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This past weekend I went over the Sierra to visit my brother and dad in the Reno area. I’m the last family member left in California. As I’ve mentioned here, I’ve noticed the decline in California. The poverty is just creeping through previously nice areas. We’ve got the tent cities, boarded up houses, crime, etc. In my recent visits to the Reno area I couldn’t help but notice the construction. They are building new developments as fast as they can over there. The homes are being filled by Californians escaping our state. Being an engineer, I’ve noticed that the quality of the homes being built are much better than what was built around my area when we had our building boom in the 90s.
We are a golfing family so we are interested in communities with easy access to golf. The very old course, Washoe Golf Course, is in the SW corner of Reno with an older neighborhood built around it. A year ago, nice homes there could be had for $300K. Now, they’re around $500K – a huge increase in price is occurring as housing costs in “the World’s Biggest Little City” are actually now higher than what we find in our area in California. All this has been a little surprising to see.
But, the big surprise was Sunday when I took my family to watch the PGA Barracuda Championship at Montreux Golf Country Club in the hills south of Reno. I grew up in, arguably, the richest part of the S.F. Bay Area. But, I was shocked at the homes in Montreux. They were absolutely amazing. As we drove out my wife and kids asked me to drive around the community more just to look at the homes in that beautiful place in the pines. I felt like one of the Beverly Hillbillies driving through. I paid extra to park inside the community for the tournament and when the lady at gate greeted us on the way in I said, “Do you allow pickups in here?” and we all laughed. I think what I saw was clearly a representation of wealth that’s left California. It was really something. It’s not like the Reno area has a history of tons of high-paid employment opportunities. This is obviously wealth removed from California in order to keep it safe. It was really an eye-opening weekend…


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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 7 months ago
    East Central Florida golfing is extremely affordable, with homes around $300 K for 4 bedrooms. No state income tax either.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 7 months ago
      You get $200k discount on the homes because of the humidity ;^)
      That income tax discount is instead taken in property taxes.
      $300k still sounds expensive to me, jb.
      Even at todays low rates, the monthly payment will be between 1500 and 2000 per month (incl taxes and insurance.)
      Not "reasonable".
      Yes, Reno is much worse.
      The fed thinks its not a problem that the USD has lost 54% of its value in 30 years. They are wrong.
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      • Posted by term2 6 years, 7 months ago
        When I was in college in the 60's, cadillacs cost about $5k. Now its way over $50k. That means the dollar lost more like 90% of its value My dads house in the 60's cost $33k in NJ. Now that house is way over $300k.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 7 months ago
        Actually my property tax is only $2900 per year, less than 1% per year of my home's value. The high property taxes are in the People's Republic counties further south (with more humidity). The insurance is higher, around $5000 per year - more than the mortgage's principal and interest. Now the house is paid off.
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        • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 7 months ago
          Yikes! (insurance cost). Ours is like, $1400 on a million dollar home. Although, we're on the "high" side of the dam and reservoir, and on a solid granite plate that goes down about a mile into the crust, and not in a wildfire area, so I feel like I'm kind of ripped-off at $1400.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 7 months ago
          Thanks for the clarification, jb. My taxes in Tampa were that high back in 1981 on a value of $150k ;^)
          And I don't really mind the humidity most of the time. If I was to build a house this year in the US your area would be at or near the top of my list.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 7 months ago
            Tampa taxes are somewhat higher, and yours would probably be a little higher here too initially. Florida has a homestead exemption such that the maximum that your assessed home value can go up is only 3%. Consequently my assessed value is only about 3/4 of the real value.
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      • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 7 months ago
        Real estate prices are not really a function of a deflating dollar, it's supply and demand driven. You can't just pop-out more houses like iphones on the assembly line to meet a growing demand, so prices will rise. Much of the economy of the US is suffering in some areas and it is driving people to where better paying jobs exist, and augment that with retirees seeking tax shelters. Florida is fine if you intend to rent something, their property taxes are pretty brutal though. Depends on what you are into though, we use our RV a lot, no interest in touring up and down the traffic-clogged southeast in down-pouring rain when the heavens open up every few hours (I lived in Biloxi for a couple of years).
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        • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 7 months ago
          The supply of money is also a part of that equation, sco, via federal reserve inflation of the dollar. So is the tax deductability of the mortgage interest. Change the financing availability (via interest price) and watch the changes. That has been the reason for most of the variation of housing prices in the past 100 years. It creates the changes in housing supply and demand.
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    • Posted by JuliBMe 6 years, 7 months ago
      I'm in California, too, and I've been looking at houses in the Jacksonville area (virtually). However, one thing that puts me off is the sea level. FLOOD is a very scary thought for me (earthquakes are NOTHING in comparison!) and I love little dogs, so alligators put me off a bit, too! :-) Convince me I'm wrong because I really would like to get out of CommieFornia for the humidity and sea/surf of Florida!
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 7 months ago
        If you avoid being directly on the ocean, then flooding is no problem. Tropical Storm Fay dumped 27 inches on my yard several years ago. No one's home in my neighborhood was flooded, and the water drained as fast as it rained. Jacksonville is hotter in the summer and cooler in the winter than where I am just north of Melbourne. Last year's hurricane was within just a few miles, and there was nothing more than a few downed palm branches.
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        • Posted by JuliBMe 6 years, 7 months ago
          I know I'm probably weird, but I loved the summer storms of Florida. We don't get much thunder and lightning in California, not to mention rain! And the green! Oh, I love the tropical green.

          Now about alligators?.........
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 7 months ago
            There is an alligator in every pond, but we bought across the street from the nearest pond.
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            • Posted by JuliBMe 6 years, 7 months ago
              LOL, how far do they stray from water on average do you think? EVERY neighborhood seems to have a pond! If you move near a pond, is there fencing you can put in that will stop any alligator from coming into your yard?
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 7 months ago
                Most alligators do not stray far from the ponds, but in a drought, occasionally they do. I don't have fencing, but you can put fencing in.
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                • Posted by JuliBMe 6 years, 7 months ago
                  Thanks, jbrenner! I can tell you don't consider them much of a problem. I guess I will continue my contemplation and preparations towards a possible move. I'm very enamored of the upgrade of home I can achieve with the move. I love California, but I think it's a goner for a very long time.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 6 years, 7 months ago
        Just sold a nice family property on the beach side island in New Smyrna Beach (just south of Daytona) for $300k. Five minute walk to the beach. Probably worth a lot more but it was a private sale just to move it. Never had a flood problem on that property (high ground with excellent drainage) and never saw an alligator on the island in all the years I've gone there (about 30). Now I also have a relative that has a place outside of Titusville near Cape Canaveral. No flood problem there, but he did see an alligator in a pond near his house a couple of years ago, but hasn't seen it since. If you're thinking of Florida jbrenner's advice about East Central is very good. Beautiful, if you don't mind warm summers. Not much worry of flood and not overrun with 'gators.
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        • Posted by JuliBMe 6 years, 7 months ago
          LOL, we visited Florida in 2001 for a wedding. Stayed in both Clearwater and Orlando put opted to see Kennedy Space Center for a day instead of DisneyWorld. I went to Epcot in 1983 (Navy boot camp trip before graduating) right after it opened and I've been to Disneyland here numerous times. On the later trip, we saw an alligator twice in the wild. Once when driving down to Clearwater and once near Jacksonville as we were driving to leave the state for South Carolina. What are the odds? We see two on a five day trip and you see none in 30 years! LOL
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          • Posted by mccannon01 6 years, 7 months ago
            LOL! Yes, that is funny. I've actually looked in ponds and drainage ditches as I walked around parts of the island hoping to see one and never did. Much of the swampy areas around it are salt water swamps and I don't know if 'gators like them or not. Saw some big snakes, though. Mostly black snakes that are harmless to people. I keep saying the "island", which it is but it's huge and you never know you're on an island when you're on it. It's connected to the mainland by two causeways.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 7 months ago
            I lived in the Clearwater area for 15 years. I saw gators all the time on the University of Florida campus. I remember shining a light on a lake and seeing countless gator eyes. In high school I remember walking by them at the park and not thinking anything of it. Now that I'm back in my home town in WI and at an older age, though, I wonder what I was thinking as a teenager walking by them without any regard. They could have attacked me.
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      • Posted by EdGoldstein 6 years, 7 months ago
        I have lived in a small beach town for 50 years through many hurricane scares. There was not the loss of a single home to a storm during that time. However most of those homes are gone. They were torn down and replaced by piles of concrete condos. The statistics show it is about 70 years between hurricanes hitting a specific beach.
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      • Posted by breichle 6 years, 7 months ago
        We have lived on the water (small bay off the Intracoastal just south of Tampa Bay) for almost 13 years. Our home is 14 ft above sea level. The water levels have NOT risen anywhere near us (including the beaches of Anna Maria Island). Florida's soil is predominantly sand so the rains drain away quickly. We have never experienced flooding.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 7 months ago
    It will be fortunate if there is any California left in California. We noticed the start of a decline in earnest when we lived in San Diego in the mid nineties. However, a productive giant doesn't disappear over night. It crumbles bit by bit as it is mishandled and abused. California, arguably the most beautiful and productive place in the world (yes the world) will soon be another rust belt state. Shame on us for allowing it to happen. And be careful, as the same stupidity killing California, is spreading.
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  • Posted by Ben_C 6 years, 7 months ago
    The ultimate vote is with feet, not the ballot box. As M. Thatcher once said, "Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money." The Forgotten Man is voting with his feet. .
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    • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 7 months ago
      The Forgotten Man (and woman) also have to procreate at a greater rate than the brainwashed city dwellers and invading hordes of immigrants from the 3rd world where traditional American limits on government are unknown. Otherwise the ignorant savages will outnumber them at the polls even in rural areas.
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  • Posted by rogershe 6 years, 7 months ago
    I am a refugee from CA who was born, raised and lived in the Bay Area for 54 years. I retired in Reno because CA is commuting suicide with insane progressive politics, massive over-regulation and illegal immigration protections. I took a diversion to Portland, OR for 12 years to get to retirement. I can attest to the fact that California refugees ruined Oregon, at least Portland and Eugene. Take simple garbage collection. They only pick up garbage every two weeks so garbage is overflowing. Recycle picks up every week and you are supposed to compost wet food stuffs in your yard waste. You can't even hire a private service to help. Then there is the Arts tax where most schools still don't have Arts classes. Property tax is insane and never ever goes down even if your house value drops in half as it did in 2009. I still have friends in the Bay Area so what is the closest bigger city to the bay that is NOT CA? Answer, Reno. At least one third of the people I meet left CA for the same reasons. There is massive growth here which is a double edged sword. Tesla/Panasonic is hiring 6,500, Amazon is here to supply the west coast and many others, but try to hire a contractor or person to fix your roof or put in a window and you are 6-9 months out. I can attest to the progressive infection in Nevada is real. Nevada fell to Hillary because of liberal Vegas and it's creeping in. Fortunately, we still have no state income tax, my property tax is less than one third of what it was in OR or CA for a nicer home. Not everyone in CA is an insane leftist progressive communist. Most people can't just pick up and leave for many reasons. CA does need to be broken up into at least 6
    pieces but it will never happen because progressives have power. It is very sad to see the place I lived most of my life, being destroyed.

    Roger..
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  • Posted by voodoo59 6 years, 7 months ago
    You are looking at the demise of the western States. Colorado, Utah and Nevada in particular are continting to be invaded by Kalifornia refugees (no offense- they're not all bad, just the vast majority of them). They move in and drive up housing prices,leaving the market unattainable for the next generation of locals. The problem is that they run away from the socialist idiocy and suddenly, after a year or so, they think, " wow, here's what we did in Kali!" and start incrementally replicating the big-government garbage they supposedly left behind. I think Trump's wall would be much more effective if it was built on the eastern border of Kalifornia. I'm a big fan of Calexit as long as there are some border controls.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 6 years, 7 months ago
      They are like an invasive species they might have a pretty flower when in bloom, but they only disguise the thorns.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
        I keep seeing this kind of comment, but am torn. I think a lot of them are good people who are escaping a failed state. I also acknowledge that the lefties are trying to infiltrate. They are certainly making headway in Nevada, in light of the laws being drafted there now. But, lefties don't just come from California.

        I'm reminded of when I lived in Seattle the last time. I'd hear somebody griping about how Californians were coming in a messing the place up. I'd ask, "Where are you from?" 9 times out of 10 is was, "Oh...California." Haha...
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        • Posted by evlwhtguy 6 years, 7 months ago
          I live in NC....we have been having Yankees move down here for decades....they often say things like..."Gee the taxes are sooooo low...just think of all the good things we could have if they were just a bit higher"....

          GO THE HELL BACK! If it was so frigging great up there why the hell did you leave?
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          • Posted by mccannon01 6 years, 7 months ago
            Nicely put, evlwhtguy! I'm Upstate NY born and raised, but I'm no socialist/commie tax and spend Yankee. I'm of the mind "Just think of how much more I could do if taxes were a lot lower!". I'm grossly outnumbered and out voted here in the Peoples Republic Of New York. I'm surrounded by idiots that made HRC a senator and the Evil Hag never lived in the state before! I need to get out of this place and the wife has finally agreed so we're looking. Western NC or SC, where I have many friends, both seem appealing. Maybe SC so I can vote for Trey Gowdy, LOL! I also have relatives in Maryland (almost as bad as NY) and Florida (Hot summer) and Arizona (don't want to live in a desert). Oh well...
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        • Posted by Dobrien 6 years, 7 months ago
          Certainly a generalization, but the very well off in California aren't as affected by the decline in the state as the average producer trying to get well off.

          Plus the greater good of Altruism is a powerful draw socially.
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        • Posted by JuliBMe 6 years, 7 months ago
          I think that lefties are more attracted to government "service" and the people of the right don't even think that way. People of the right are more into productive pursuits. The left are born malcontent activists and they turn wherever they "serve" into hellholes. The normal people run to other states and don't even think that they should maybe get into government "service" too to stem the tide away from leftism.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 7 months ago
      Yes, I've heard that quite a bit.

      The irony is that many working middle, and upper-middle class Californians have been leaving for a more affordable existence elsewhere. But, that's disappearing. Housing over the hill certainly costs more now than what our housing costs in my area of Cal. Parts of Colorado, ditto. Texas housing costs are rapidly climbing, and traffic in Austin is reportedly some of the worst in the nation. It reminds me of when I moved back to Seattle in 1990 right after college after spending much of my youth there. I didn't recognize the place and only lasted a couple years after returning to California for less-crowded places...Go figure.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 7 months ago
        Hitlery got 67% of the vote in Austin, TX (Travis County.) It's the state capital and has been statist for a long time. You couldn't pay me enough to live there (or Seattle or Portland or Lost Wages.)
        Did Hitlery lose the election in ANY big city?
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        • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 7 months ago
          Answering my own Q:

          Trump won in:
          Phoenix
          Jacksonville FL
          Fort Worth
          Oklahoma City
          Tulsa
          Wichita
          Melbourne FL

          Hillary won in:
          Houston
          Dallas
          Atlanta
          El Paso
          Denver
          Salt Lake
          Miami
          Philadelphia
          Charleston SC
          Birmingham
          New Orleans
          New York
          Chicago
          Detroit
          Los Angeles
          San Francisco
          San Antonio
          San Diego
          San Jose
          Indianapolis
          Tampa-St Petersburg
          Cleveland
          Columbus OH
          Cincinnati
          Charlotte
          Raleigh
          Memphis
          Nashville
          Detroit
          Seattle
          Boston
          Baltimore
          Louisville
          Lexington KY
          Portland OR
          Las Vegas
          Milwaukee
          Albuquerque
          Tucson
          Kansas City
          St Louis
          Omaha
          Minneapolis
          Pittsburgh
          Orlando
          and the Dark Center
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    • Posted by BeenThere 6 years, 7 months ago
      They move to other states, then start supporting and voting for the same irrational ideas and policies that created the very reason they left CA. Irrational is as irrational does. (CA native now in the NW)
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    • Posted by Animal 6 years, 7 months ago
      Good. The sale value of our house in Colorado just keeps going up. In the next 2-4 years, hopefully right on the peak, Mrs. Animal and I will sell and bog off to Alaska, where we are already house-shopping.
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    • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 7 months ago
      Sorry, I'll be there in a few years. Looking at Pocatello or potentially Jackson Hole area, but JH has some detraction with the deep snow and we come & go with the RV a lot.
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  • Posted by chad 6 years, 7 months ago
    Any amount of wealth, small or large, will seek protection or evasion of confiscation. Unfortunately Americans have been brought up with the idea that confiscation is a part of the natural development and protection of man which cannot be achieved via any other means. Spent a day in transportation training for school bus drivers to hear a police officer who was informing us about gangs and how to spot them. They want us to inform the Feds, the ATF and local police consider anyone who thinks he is a sovereign, anti government or who resists the 'lawful' application of government force to be a gang member or homegrown terrorist and should be reported.
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  • Posted by term2 6 years, 7 months ago
    California is the land of the hillary supporter, and should be shunned. Last time I went there about a year ago I was reminded of the hollowed out oak tree in AS. There was a lot of wealth in california, but it had an empty feeling to it.
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  • Posted by Flootus5 6 years, 7 months ago
    The Reno area is booming. They are connecting the USA Parkway from I-80 south to US 50 which will connect the Carson City - Dayton - Silver Springs much closer to Reno - Fernley areas which are exploding. There is a ton of commercial construction going on including that Tesla facility.

    This all just adds to the horribly distorted demographics that now constitutes Nevada. Between Vegas, and the Reno - Carson areas being overrun by newcomers, the rest of us in rural Nevada are hopelessly outvoted. What used to be a wonderfully free and libertarian based culture in this State is gone. My corner of the state in Elko County is still strongly conservative, but hopelessly outnumbered by Clark and Washoe Counties. This is a growing embarrassment, with voting for Harry Reid for years then Obama, Hillary, and now a democrat controlled legislature, and a lame duck rino Gov Sand-no-balls. I just filed the first time paperwork for the new Nevada Commerce Tax for my new business two weeks ago. Something the rino state legislature and rino Governor gave us in 2015.
    The Sierra Nevada still is a rain shadow but is no longer the people shadow it used to be.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 6 years, 7 months ago
    Living in California, and not being a native and someone that travels something like 15 weeks out of the year, I've never been mislead by the shabby construction here. Most are piles of shit compared to housing in other parts of the country. A funny thing actually, we were looking online for log cabins around Bear Lake, ID, where we may retire, I was looking for something similar to our single-story 2300 sq foot alpine-style house on Folsom Lake. It's just my wife and I, the house is huge for us. We were not finding anything in my anticipated price range in Bear Lake at first, I thought I was shooting low on the price filter.. ultimately discovered the problem wasn't the price, it was the size, there wasn't much in Bear Lake under 3,000 sq feet. Most were 3500+ with a 3 car garage + an RV or Motorhome storage building.

    For a real eye opener - look at Incline Village, CA and Nevada - Condo on the California side = about $400k, across the street in Nevada = $700k+.
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  • Posted by hvance 6 years, 7 months ago
    Even if Abaco moves to Reno to a house of equal value he will save 12% on his state income tax. That's not chopped liver and the construction will be better in all likelyhood due to the house being a new home. Move East young man, move, but only 1 state away.
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  • Posted by ELAshley 6 years, 7 months ago
    I saw a similar report on the news. An organization is recruiting conservative families/professionals to leave California and resettle in Texas, even helping them find work, homes, etc... wish I could remember the organization doing this. So far they've helped some 2,500 people move. As I heard, the org. has only been up and running, in this capacity, for a couple of years.
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  • Posted by wmiranda 6 years, 7 months ago
    As more people move into Reno, the attitudes will also change among the people, not much, but some. Let's hope the ill attitudes don't follow from California.
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