Could Galt's Gulch Have Open Borders?

Posted by deBohun 6 years, 9 months ago to Culture
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No free society, let alone a libertarian one, can long survive if it actively welcomes those who would undermine its institution and culture. Such tolerance is the Achilles heel of open societies, and why they all eventually are undermined by nefarious forces, banksters, gangsters, communists, neocons, theocons, etc. Until a method is worked out for preserving freedom while maintaining openness and tolerance for diversity, open-border libertarians are never going to be taken seriously in politics. We are today, exactly in the situation we are in politically and financially, due to the mass importation of communists, anarchists, Trotskyites, Keynesians, Marxists, Maoists, monarchists, neo-feudalists, religious dogmatists, and so forth, as laborers for big business during the industrial revolution. None of these people had any respect nor commitment for the founding classical liberal or Unitarian values of the nation, and they promptly set about remaking America into the fouled up countries they had left behind.


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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 9 months ago
    This brings up a question. How would the Gulch deal with those nefarious forces you mentioned? Even if the borders are closed, people might change or their children or grandchildren may adopt those antithetical ideologies.

    We know the Gulch invited in new people who agreed with their philosophy. Did they oust people disagreed with it (and acted on that disagreement)?
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    • Posted by $ Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
      THIS is the idea I was trying to argue in my bricklayers posting. That, in order to build the Gulch, they'll need to bring in labor, some, hell most of whom will not understand, let alone subscribe to the philosophy of the Gulch.

      I can picture one of them trying to force the door of the power plant just to destroy it.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
        Why do you think brick layer types (manual labor, uneducated etc) people can't grasp Gulch philosophy? Who, in your opinion, has that market cornered?
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 9 months ago
          In the book, the one worker who told the story of the motor factory implied that once it was implemented everyone could see treating everyone as if they were one big family was hugely unhealthy. That sanctimonious little shrew who doled out the cash was most memorable villain from the two Rand books I've read. It was clear that almost all workers at all levels realized the plan was ill-conceived, at least according the one worker who gave the account to Dagny.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
            Since this was posted as a response to me.... my confusion is with Hiraghm who seems to keep implying that "lower" (my word) workers would not be gulch worthy and I disagree. I think people who 'get' the philosophy can come from all walks...so I'm trying to get him to explain his premise. :)
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
              No, I did not imply that "lower" workers would not be gulch worthy... but that those running the gulch would think them unworthy.
              Elsewhere I mention Dagny Taggart's opinion of the "common workers" whom she gathers to hold signal lanterns when the power goes out... which changes when she see John Galt among them.

              Cherryl is a prime example of someone who "gets" it and comes from the lower classes.

              However, I suspect Rand never imagined the lower classes becoming the animals they are becoming. It's my opinion that the vast majority of the lower classes, in real life, can't get the philosophy. That's why they're stuck in the lower classes. We'll find out if people in the lower classes like me can "get it" and subsequently dig themselves out of the lower classes.
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              • Posted by $ minniepuck 6 years, 9 months ago
                I don't know what qualifies someone as "lower class," financially speaking (unless you're not talking about money, but rather mentality), but I know lots of folks who understand the philosophy and aren't making much money at all. I don't think there's a direct correlation between understanding and making money. There's also a matter of choice to consider. Not everyone's passion lies in a profession that pulls in large figures.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
                What??? Whew...okay..
                The gulch "runners" are aware of anyone who recognizes value for value and living life for one's self because of their love of it. I was never under the idea that they were looking for only rich people. OMG I know so many "educated" "well-off" people who couldn't be more clueless. This has not a thing to do with a person's "station" it has to do with how they think...being principled can actually make you less wealthy, because you're not willing to sell yourself out for a nice paycheck (I include myself in this example)...I left behind good pay and benefits to work a job I love (or loved, but that's another story).
                Rand TOTALLY knew that there were some in the 'lower classes" that 'got it' AND that the others would become ravenous for other peoples money. As for 'digging themselves out of the lower classes"...who are you to say that they aren't happy where they are...and still 'get it'?
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
                  "being principled can actually make you less wealthy, "

                  I'm well aware of that, from personal experience.
                  However, I'm talking about the modern "lower classes". They aren't, in my experience, by and large, particularly principled.
                  An example; in the break room, there's a candy machine with a glitch. If you turn the handle back and forth, you can work yourself some M&Ms or peanuts out of it w/o paying. I've seen many different people do it many different times. Not one recognized that he was guilty of repeated petty theft. Forget the legal aspect of it.

                  About the time the protesters were demanding $15/hour at McDonald's, a co-worker was complaining that that's what he should be getting (I've stated elsewhere where I work, I don't want to give them too much opportunity to notice and fire me). He's doing the same job he's done for over 5 years, and he thinks that alone entitles him to more money *above the regular raises he's received each year*.

                  He's a nice guy, and fairly intelligent, too, but I argued with him and could not get through to him the connection between production and profit.

                  People I overhear talking in fast food places, at the store, co-workers... the vast majority seem clueless about value-for-value. Maybe some of them, maybe all of them, are rich as Midas... but I wouldn't bet on it.

                  My thought is that people who don't "get" value for value tend to stay poor because they don't have the... philosophical tools, for want of a better term, to create wealth for themselves.

                  Seriously, I believe there is a "class" that's been developed in the U.S. over the past century that has a cargo cult mentality. The gods of money (usually equated with the government) mean for them to have the money, but evil entities like Walmart and McDonald's interecept the cargo and keep it for themselves.
                  How can you become successful, either professionally or financially, when you think like that?
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
                    You can't. And they shouldn't. It's purposeful ignorance... They want what they want and have themselves convinced that they deserves whatever they want. (We could dissect that right down to how they were raised...many kids are not told 'no' you can't have that because of a,b,c reason...parents over compensate..etc etc they create monsters...and now they're taking over.) But... my point is they don't take the time or effort or thought process to see if what they want/deserve ADDS UP. They don't follow a line of logic to it's conclusion. They've never been taught to think that way OR they're too lazy OR they don't want to face reality (bingo!). Things don't HAVE to make sense when you're entitled. If somebody else has something it's only 'fair' that they should have equal access to it. Or so they think... no..wait..they DON'T think... correction: Or so they FEEEEEEL. (oh whoa whoa whoa whoa.) Logic has been replaced with emotions. (Oldest socialism trick in the book.)
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                • Posted by Rozar 6 years, 9 months ago
                  Yeah I count myself in the lower category. I try and improve myself in the job I work, but I'm not willing to sacrifice having fun and going out at night to party and making friends and chasing girls and a bunch of other things that make it harder for me to grow in the company. I like my life and my values aren't necessarily to make more money alone. And I understand that I won't be making a fortune in my future, but I'm going to have a good life story and that's my value.
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
                    Well, one thing I know for sure... I value completely different things than most people I know...and I have felt (oh whoa whoa whoa whoa) this way since birth (or there 'bouts.)
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 6 years, 9 months ago
      They weren't invited.

      Carefully reread the section of the book dealing with life in the valley. There was just one person in the valley who had not been specifically invited to be there - Dagny. And she was only given 30 days to join or get out. :D When she left at the end of her time, she knew she had a invitation to return when she could agree to conform to their values and goals, but not until.
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      • Posted by dpesec 6 years, 9 months ago
        Perhaps but she had an account in the bank. This leads me to suspect she was on the list but didn't reach the point where the invite would make sense.
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        • Posted by $ stargeezer 6 years, 9 months ago
          Have you read the book?

          First, the account had not been opened with her knowledge, will or permission. In fact she did not know of the bank until she crashed into the valley.

          Secondly, she agreed with every precept that formed the foundation, the underlying reasons for being that bound all of he valley's populace together. The only point she was not in total agreement with them was the idea that there was nothing that she could do to change the final outcome.

          She left the valley to discover for herself that the people in charge of the government would not be changed and that the final outcome would be total collapse.

          None of this affects the point I made that "those on the outside", as Ayn Rand referred to them, those who were not sought out and welcomed individually were NOT invited, and I suspect they would be repelled if they tried to show up. As indicated in the book, the population of the valley all had skills with weapons - they were ready to defend themselves if need be.
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          • Posted by Rozar 6 years, 9 months ago
            So what would of happened if some hiker wandering through the woods stumbled upon the Gulch. Would they have imprisoned him for not knowing it was private land? And if so for how long?
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            • Posted by $ stargeezer 6 years, 9 months ago
              Most likely given him a meal, talk to him and if he didn't belong with them, give him a ride out. If he'd refuse to go, then they'd be forced to take care of business.
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              • Posted by Rozar 6 years, 9 months ago
                I like that answer, but they kept Dagny in part to make sure she didn't tell any outsiders. What if he gave up the location to the government?
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
                  Yesterday I had a fantasy story going in my head, that takes place before Dagny follows Galt to the valley.

                  A man appears in the valley, bedraggled, half dead, and is confronted by the inhabitants... because he came there to kill Francisco D'Anconia.

                  It comes from part of the book I don't get. Francisco ruins all the people who invested in his company. But that would include thousands of innocents who invested in the company because they believed in *him*. I was always given to understand that people investing in stocks provide capital for companies to expand and grow. Why does this deserve punishment?

                  Anyway, so he's there, having been thwarted from killing Francisco, on his knees in the street because his strength fails him, surrounded by Galt, Ragnar, Midas and Francisco, tears streaming down his face in pain, anger and frustration, his world having been destroyed. He explains how hard he'd worked at his job, and at every attempt to earn promotion, to get ahead, he was thwarted. How he'd then gone without, skipping meals even, to get enough money to invest in D'Anconia Global Commodities, because he'd followed Francisco's life since before he became a playboy and admired him. And then his hero ruined him, taking everything he had.
                  Ragnar has a gun to his head, and is about to deliver the coup de grace because they can't let him out to tell about the valley, and to coerce him to tell them how he followed Francisco to the valley, when Francisco kneels before the man, eyes locked, and quietly says, "I have done you a great harm, and for that I ask your forgiveness.
                  "Raise your right hand. No, keep looking into my eyes, and repeat after me:
                  "I swear by my life and my love of it..."
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
                    Ragnar wouldn't have shot him? I think not. And how did he get there?
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                    • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
                      How he got there is why Ragnar hadn't already pulled the trigger. They would desperately want to know how he followed Francisco. But, Francisco recognized from his story that this was no looter or moocher, and therefore gave him the opportunity to live and remain.

                      I didn't tell the whole thing because it was all in my mind to entertain myself, and I didn't want to fill pages here with it. sorry. :(
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                      • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
                        Shit that was a typo up there... It should say, "Ragnar would have shot him...I think not" Not 'wouldn't". I don't think Ragnar would have shot someone for wandering in the gulch. But I don't think anyone COULD wander into the gulch either. Is this story complete?
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                  • Posted by $ minniepuck 6 years, 9 months ago
                    In answer to your question: it's because putting money into D'Anconia Copper was a setup for the looters. The people who invested in the company were the "aristocrats" as Rand described them; I don't think she ever said that regular people invested. Francisco was punishing the very looters that were forcing everyone else to give up their money while they hid their own.
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  • Posted by Spinkane 6 years, 9 months ago
    In the Federalist papers Hamilton or Madison implored the citizenry to accept a limited Federal government. To the fisherman they insisted a Navy was imperative to keep the shipping lanes open. They stated how England fishermen were so over taxed, we could sell the English fish cheaper than their own fisherman. Any American fisherman could appreciate this and support the idea. Business would be good, he’d make plenty of money. The purpose of the constitution was to enjoy the benefits it could provide while keeping the federal government small so as not to repeat the mistakes of all other governments. Fisherman and bricklayers would embraced this philosophy; therefore they’d enjoy a nice life in the gulch.
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  • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
    1.How do you square "free society"with restricting (govt) people from where they can go or where they can live?
    2.The problem is ultimately philosophical. As long as citizens can vote for wealth transfer, you're screwed. Marx, Stalin can be born in a free country.We lost the philosophical battle. It is not about numbers and control.

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    • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 9 months ago
      True. But how do you maintain a society and its culture unless you administer some sort of philosophic test, or ban those who would subvert your constitution from voting or adversely impacting the culture? How can one expect to let every freeloader with Marxist leanings enter the political arena and through slow piece meal manipulation destroy the foundation? It seems to me the only way is to enforce our immigration laws and continue to educate the perspective citizens of the philosophy that made this country desirable in the first place before granting any benefit or citizenship. If people come here just to live and work but accept the culture (When in Rome...) fine, but that is not what has happened. Putting non citizens on juries in California portends further erosion and degradation. If we let people live wherever they want and have open borders then people who come with unwanted political baggage/philosophies must be denied voice in the body politic in order to preserve what is essential. Otherwise we invite opportunity to lose the philosophical battle... We already have too many naturalized citizens with statist progressive attitudes that mimic those immigrants who come here because it is so desirable then want to change our culture! Is it unwarranted to try and protect/preserve a culture from known adversaries? I would like very much to find a more appealing solution... What do you have in mind?
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 9 months ago
        It seems like there are two unrelated issues:
        - People born in US vs born elsewhere
        - People with Marxist leanings vs Libertarian Leanings
        At one point you suggest the group of people we're making US citizens has a higher percentage of statist progressive attitudes and the people who are born here. Is that true? Certainly many people born here have statist attitudes and many people who come here come seeking liberty from oppressive gov'ts. Even if naturalized citizens are more likely to be statist than natural born citizens, that influence is minor next to the attitudes we're teaching kids who are US citizens, regardless of whether their parents are natural born.
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        • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 9 months ago
          Yes, but people born here are impacted and influenced over time by those coming here, although they may not carry the same leanings to the same degree. How do we screen for libertarian vs. Marxist leanings?

          There are many who flee from oppressive Marxist leaning countries. One would like to believe that they come here to embrace fully the opposite of what they left behind, but somehow that does not seem to bear out. They want to pick and choose. This has been the story since the beginning of our nation, has it not? This has influenced the body politic. The slow inroads of foreign political thinking has even infiltrated our highest court, when they wish to refer to other nations laws and constitutions (Ginsberg) as influence on their decisions which are supposed to be only based upon our Constitution. http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/ruth-ba...
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 9 months ago
            I reject the idea that most statist thought comes from abroad. I see what I see as excessive statism in people who have been here for many generations. Most people on this board think I'm too socialist. Is that from foreign influence? I just don't see it. It think if we somehow block out foreign influence, which is impossible if you want a growing economy in the information age, we'd still have people coming up with the notion they need a handout all on their own.
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            • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 9 months ago
              Very well, but isn't it easier to fight the statism that exists without adding to the numbers from areas of the world with extreme marxist attitudes?
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 9 months ago
                That makes perfect sense. My point is that to really make a difference you need to win the minds of people already here or have the ability to kick people out.
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                • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 9 months ago
                  Absolutely. And when we do our job and educate people, or in this case for lack of a better term re-educate them, we may eventually have a large enough majority to hold off the statists' for a while. Much like the experience of our Republic for the first century of its existence. I only hope if this comes to fruition that the lesson is not lost for at least as long...
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
          Many people now born here have statist attitudes because of the indoctrination from media and schools for nearly a century.

          However, yes, many who are coming here from other countries, particularly illegally, have statist attitudes... why wouldn't they, when they were raised in "authoritarian" societies such as Mexico?
          I use the term "authoritarian" loosely, because in places like Mexico the "authority" might well be a drug lord, or your employer. Bosses and peons.
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      • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
        "But how do you maintain a society and its culture unless you administer some sort of philosophic test, or ban those who would subvert your constitution from voting or adversely impacting the culture?"
        We have almost always been a melting pot. What about the Asian culture? Incredibly different from "ours" yet, these immigrants don't seem to be bucking free markets and liberty in general-these immigrants and there children are freely thriving.
        The problem is we the citizens, including our parents and grandparents generations did not/are not doing the tough things necessary to stop the thousand cuts. As Rand said, it only takes a small vocal minority. People of all cultures thrive in an economically free nation. and we were enjoying it while our enemies were plotting to bring it down. Our enemies-BORN IN THE USA.
        lol, not yelling at you. But keeping people out will NOT solve the ideology war. It is NOT about culture-it is about philosophy. I agree that since we are already a welfare state-we are toppling fast to illegal immigration, education, etc. The biggest fence in the world will not save the Constitution. The tea party can-if they stop being fixated on fences
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
          Illegals are NOT helping this country stay free... if they won't come here legally then there should be a border to stop them from coming illegally. It's a recipe for disaster and it's been baking for a while and it's starting to smoke up the house! If you come here legally then you have to know the Constitution to become a citizen...there are reasons for this. The ones flooding across open borders don't care about the constitution OR the real meaning of keeping and maintaining freedom (okay not ALL of them, but)...that's why we need to stop them. Their eagerness to steal their way in and take and take and take is already a violation of freedom. Open borders is an invitation for evil to quietly invade.
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          • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
            "evil to quietly invade." very nice LS. like it.
            it is not the fault of the invaders it is the fault of those who believe we live in a democracy. For those soldiers who valiantly fought in WWII. Did they fight Roosevelt's policies?
            For those who voted for Reagan, did they fight to get rid of Sarbane's Oxley? Did they fight against Medicare Part D? No Child Left Behind? THE PATRIOT ACT? and you're worried about borders...jus sayin
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
              No I agree with all that..that was covered under my complacency remark.. I don't blame the invaders at all...I blame us. Now it's time for us to actually HAVE a border... the Ranchers are going thru hell down there! Enough already. I'm worried about ALL of it...it's ALL part of the problems we have..intertwined even.
              Gotta go! :)
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
                I blame the invaders. It doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to realize you don't belong in someone else's house. I don't blame my child for leaving the front door unlocked when a burglar steps in. I still shoot the sonofabitch.

                My view of the illegal alien invasion is almost certainly different from everyone here. My experience of it is probably different. All I will say is that I vehemently disagree with the myth perpetrated that the illegal invaders are decent, hardworking folk just trying to survive.

                My solution to that particular problem has always been; as they may be within the jurisdiction of the U.S., they are not UNDER the jurisdiction of the U.S.. Therefore, remove them from the protection of law. If someone commits a crime and can prove the victim was in the country illegally, he gets a pass.
                They will self deport... and quickly.
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                • Posted by 6 years, 9 months ago
                  Any one who thinks the core of our problem lies with Mexicans seeking seasonal work needs to evaluate the possibility that they harbor some subconscious racism. This issue has its roots in Europe, not Latin America and the infection walked off the boats in the minds of legal immigrants.
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        • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 9 months ago
          I quite agree education has been lacking. What of the parents who are immigrants who have not fully grasped and appreciated the foundations and inculcate the same to their children? If one is born to a different political culture how do you educate/rid them of all of the bad baggage? How do we stop the progressive "blob" which is our public education system from turning out little marxists?
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          • Posted by $ minniepuck 6 years, 9 months ago
            Education is a great point, but I’d also like to bring up entertainment as another factor to consider.

            As for the people who are immigrating to our country – yes, we would like them to assimilate – well, okay, let them turn on the TV and watch what we do. I know a lot of people learn English this way. But what do they watch? Left leaning ideas are everywhere. Most TV shows, movies, and books don’t agree with classical liberal ideas. The businessman is almost always the evil guy. Even the most recent Muppets movie had an evil businessman, for crying out loud… our children grow up hearing this stuff every day, and young adults in colleges are afraid to write conservative-leaning papers for fear of being punished. I dealt with this myself in college almost a decade ago. If these thoughts are everywhere, of course this type of thinking would eventually stain our education system.

            That's why "Atlas Shrugged" is so important, because the philosophy is there in the midst of a story you can enjoy. Selling most people on pure philosophy is very difficult. It has to be delivered to people in a way they can receive the message without them getting bored or feeling like an idea was shoved down their throat.

            There is so much to do in education, politics, etc. But, right now, I sincerely believe we’re helping the cause already by helping these movies in whatever way we can. That’s why I’m so excited for these AS movies and gave to the Kickstarter fund. As more people write stories and make movies to help spread the ideas within AS, I’ll also try to fund/help them in whatever way I can. There’s more to do, but this is a great start.
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            • Posted by $ ObjectiveAnalyst 6 years, 9 months ago
              Hello minniepuck,
              I couldn't agree more. Our entertainment and the MSM News we are subjected to not only reflects but influences. The culture needs a shock to the system... an infusion of reason.
              Regards,
              O.A.
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
      Fighting evil is necessary for freedom to prevail...once the freedom to fight is stripped away by evil that's the end. You're right, the problem IS philosophical, and the Constitution is not being upheld, we have been complacent for way too long and we are only beginning to realize the need to fight for freedom again.
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      • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
        people have to get behind their rage. so, what should be their first priority?
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        • Posted by UncommonSense 6 years, 9 months ago
          IMO, khalling, I believe the first priority should be to defend one's values. Defending values in-turn defends culture. Upholding values and culture, thus support the sovereignty of that area. Defending a border is easy when you're faced against obvious invaders who are openly bent on outright destruction.

          However, it becomes much harder to maintain a border when you let people in, who, disagree with the values & culture and go about sowing discontent (Alinsky) among people & introducing a set of values & culture that aren't compatible with the native ones. Does anyone ever wonder why tyrannical regimes never seem to change? Because the tyrant KNOWS the first step towards changing/overtaking any adversary is to change the values & culture system within their borders...all without taking a shot.

          This is why they show no tolerance (what the Left always preach to us) towards anyone who does not explicitly follow (obey, submit) their values. You dig? =)
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          • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
            I dig.
            Saul Alinsky was "native." Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Eleanor Roosevelt- all home grown progressives with great influence. They grew up in our culture with American "values." So you are spot on about defending values-but the enemy is everywhere.
            I will say as we crawl closer to a police state, it's damned maddening that citizens of this country are overlooked to the preferential treatment of guests invited or uninvited. From the start, we have had immigrants forming communities all over the US. That was not the problem. It was when we started losing the intellectual battle to Americans things changed. Time was immigrants coming in I bet were highly sensitive to fitting and tried to be as American as the next guy. The advent of the prevailing culture turning socialist was homegrown. For immigrants now, they hear President Obama giving preferential lip speak to Muslim communities, illegal aliens, socialism-well to them-that must be a big part of American culture. heck-they just have to turn on a TV.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
              Don't forget Lincoln, Nixon, Johnson, Bush sr and jr, (people sometimes disagree when I point out that the Bushes were progressives, not conservatives. I let them.)
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            • Posted by UncommonSense 6 years, 9 months ago
              True about the fellers mentioned on being native, but their ideas are not native: While I don't know about TR, I do know that SA was influenced by moron Marx & his butt buddy Engels. Marxism is not native to America. And yes, you're on the mark about losing the intellectual battle which is why we're at where we're at today.
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              • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
                but we can't fence out ideas. everyone has a computer. Think about every little kid watching some Japanese cartoon with heroes, yes, but also with strong doses of altruism and personal sacrifice to the greater good. There's at least one computer in every home. To keep out ideas means totalitarianism and economic stagnation. It just takes a vigilant and vocal minority (like you educating us on Islam) talking about Ideas to influence as well. It's why I wrote a book.
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                • Posted by UncommonSense 6 years, 9 months ago
                  By no means am I about keeping out ideas. But if an idea is one that isn't congruent with the values established & agreed by that enables peaceful & civilized society, then that's when that idea needs to be firmly rejected & the originator given a choice: take your intellectual poison & leave or accept our values. "Coexisting" is not an option. The Christian Lebanese know that cruel fact all too well, as does Bridgett Gabriel.
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                  • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
                    Then we'd still be part of the British Empire?
                    How is that different from mob rule? It was the author of the Declaration himself that said the Constitution should be rewritten every generation. Should we have sent him packing?
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                    • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
                      I draw the line at force. By force, I include you vote to take something away from me or someone else. The Constitution was originally set up to reject that premise, and to enforce against it with separation of powers. The tools are there, we haven't tried hard enough as a Nation to use the tools put in place to ensure that hasn't/won't happen.
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                      • Posted by UncommonSense 6 years, 9 months ago
                        I totally concur with your bottom line. I think the use of force is the complicated & controversial part. I also believe this is the crux of issue: protecting values & culture from clearly opposite ones without using force.

                        Separation of Powers is great, but what to do when the people in charge don't respect the Separation? (that boundary thing again) Who slaps them up side the head to remind them of their responsibilities? Based on my short time on this planet, it doesn't seem the "people" have been able to influence those in charge to do the right thing effectively.
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                        • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
                          most people vote like stupid idiots. I would say time for a civil war-but I believe we represent a minority. I think the most realistic chance is to let private citizens buy city states as all of the cities fall.
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
              "Understanding their rage fully and standing by the good no matter what the cost."
              This tackles that as well... it IS philosophy. What was that I read in FC? (you'll know the exact quote)..about being willing to die for what you believe. Either you stand for evil curtailing your freedoms..or you don't. Both could lead to losing your life...one sooner than the other perhaps... but dying on your feet fighting is a completely different thing than dying on your knees or by the boot on your neck. If you don't have the philosophy you don't know the difference.
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
          Understanding their rage fully and standing by the good no matter what the cost. (I gotta go shop for a while...need to eBay up this weekend...bad!) What do you think the first priority should be?
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          • Posted by $ winterwind 6 years, 9 months ago
            I think access to the means of defense of self, chosen others and property has to be near the top of the list, if not at the top. How do you say "no" to something if you have not the means to back up your refusal?
            I have not been ammo shopping for a while, but a friend who has says she can't find .22s! That sounds odd but think about it - a .22 is the traditional "Zoe, take your .22 and go get a squirrel for supper" cartridge. A lot of people practice with .22s, but they can't be reloaded, so you have to buy new ammo every time you want to shoot it. This conglomeration of facts makes me [more] suspicious.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 6 years, 9 months ago
              We get 22s in sporadically. The other day we got some 5.56 in, a huge box... that was a rarity. Next day we got some .223 in. It just seems to be random what ammo we're sent.
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
              .22 have been very scarce for over a year or more now... something is definitely behind the reasons why. The lack of people at the gun range is one of the results. Less practice/teaching time for kids in particular. Get 'em while they're young.
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          • Posted by $ winterwind 6 years, 9 months ago
            Have you tried ETSY? I don't know what you're shopping for, but ETSY takes a much smaller bite of the seller's price [often making that price lower] & items are supposed to be handmade, vintage, or craft supplies only - no reselling. I think the people are nicer, too!
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          • Posted by khalling 6 years, 9 months ago
            get me something good at GW. merkin? protecting property rights which encompasses firearms, over -regulation, the NSA, taxing authority, police over-reach. we all know, we aren't stepping up
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 9 months ago
              We are talking/discussion/trying to wake up others...we're doing something... the stove is on high and the water in the pot is starting to simmer and the tempers are starting to seethe......come on in..the water is fine!
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