Against Religious Exemptions

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 11 months ago to Politics
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Tara Smith is a professor of philosophy here at the University of Texas (Austin) and also serves as the BB&T Chair for the Study of Objectivism. In this paper for the Journal of Law & Politics, she dissects the common justifications for allowing people to ignore the law because of a claim of religious belief.

From this synopsis from ARI ( https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2017/05/... ) you can follow the links to the article and download the PDF. (You may need to register with the site, the Social Science Researcg Network. I downloaded directly the first time, but had to register when I wanted the article to quote here.) Synopsis and link: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...

Smith argues that if the law is to have any meaning, it must apply to all. Her closely reasoned essay takes on four aspects of the claim to exception: "appeals to the First Amendment, to equality, to liberty, and to the significant role of religious identity in many people’s lives."

Prof. Smith opens "by laying out the fundamental case against exemptions, showing how they fracture the backbone of a proper, integrated legal system and sanction illegitimate uses of its power."

Understand that this is not a "libertarian" claim, but an objective one.
She writes:
"Before we can assess the merits of religious exemptions, I must make plain the framework of government that I am relying on. A government enjoys a unique kind of authority, namely, to make people do as it says regardless of whether or not they would like to.(14) This authority to coerce people’s compliance with its rules is justified only to achieve a specific mission: the protection of individual rights. While one can argue about whether that is the mission of government, any coherent approach to the question of exemptions must presuppose more basic beliefs about the role of government as such, so I am simply laying bare my premises."15)"

And cites in support:
"(14) This has become the widely accepted notion of a government, often attributed to Max Weber, who characterized a state as “a human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory.” Max Weber, Politics as a Vocation, reprinted in FROM MAX WEBER: ESSAYS IN SOCIOLOGY 77, 77 (H.H. Gerth & C. Wright Mills eds. & trans., 1946). See THE FEDERALIST NO. 15 (Alexander Hamilton), for evidence of the Founding Fathers employing the same basic idea. While “government” is a wider concept than a “legal system,” I will sometimes use the two interchangeably merely for convenience; it will not affect clarity or argument.

(15) Note that this is essentially the framework of the Founders, expressed in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and much of the reasoning of the Federalist Papers. For a much fuller explanation and defense of the basic nature of a proper legal system, see SMITH, JUDICIAL REVIEW, supra note 12, at 45–66, 88–111; Smith, Objective Law, supra note 12, at 209–21."

Among very many points in this 50+ page work, Prof. Smith asks rhetorically, if a claim of religious exemption allows one person to ignore the law - for instance a Sikh child wishes to wear a large knife to school - why should the lack of religion deny the same right to another person?


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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 6 years, 11 months ago
    This would be a lot less of a problem if the federal government was only doing those things actually authorized by the constitution, instead of getting in to the minutia of our lives by regulating things like our toilets and light bulbs!
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
      I agree that it would be a lot less of a problem, but the problem would still exist. Some religions refuse to swear an oath in court; and for them, we allow the wording "affirm" and attach the same penalty for perjury. But the niggling details aside, the wider issue is whether and to what extent any claim of "conscience" exempts a person from obeying the law.
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      • Posted by evlwhtguy 6 years, 11 months ago
        Your point is well made. I'm a regular church-going guy but I don't understand why the church is Exempted from things like property tax for instance. They're there, they use the government services that are proportedly provided as a result of the property tax, why the heck are they exempt from them. But if you started making them pay tax somebody would go to court and say you are restricting religion. But we've got all sorts of ridiculous things going on in our courts these days. This disparate impact argument that we here in the court all the time. Is totally misused. Laws that otherwise apply equally to everybody are considered supposedly unconstitutional because certain groups are affected by the more than the main groups. Here in North Carolina they are suggesting that somehow minorities have a harder time getting a driver's license then the majority racial group people and therefore we cant check a driver's license to make sure that somebody is illegal voter. Ridiculous. .... unless of course our liberal buddies want to tell me that minorities are somehow incompetent or less than me, if that's the case let them prove it in court and maybe we'll make some special dispensation for them but I'm just thinking they're all the same as me why shouldn't they have to have a driver's license like I do. The Less things government is involved in the less problems they'll be.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 11 months ago
    Nearly all the laws to which religious exemptions have been made or proposed are unconstitutional laws in the first place. Therefore, opposing the exemptions is at best misguided.

    I don't see why "service animals" have been brought up as if similar, though. They're not, and the law making businesses allow them is stupid.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
      I agree that Prof. Tara Smith glossed over the question of unjust laws. The reason that we even allow such religious exemptions is based on the recognition that the government is subject to a "higher law." Conscience is primary; religion is a secondary expression of that.

      It goes back to Antigone. In the wake of the Peloponnesian War, the people of Athens were open to asking some tough questions, questions for which they executed Socrates and exiled others.

      The fact remains that Prof. Tara Smith stated her assumptions about the nature of government. Hers was an objective argument, not a "libertarian" one. To a libertarian, ignoring laws because you do not like them is a personal primary virtue.

      Like Galt's Gulch itself, in the novel Atlas Shrugged Hank Rearden's speech at trial, or Ragnar Danneskjold's piracy are literary devices, not blueprints for personal action here and now in the real world.

      In this case, if anyone can claim any mystical excuse for violating the rights of others, then society itself collapses into a war of all against all.
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      • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
        She did not gloss over the concept of unjust laws. She emphasized the necessity of government established to protect the rights of the individual. If a law is wrong then it is wrong regardless of religion. But even though she said that and referred back to it several times, a weakness of the article was its style of academic rationalism that did not ground all arguments in reality. She gave many examples pertaining to laws that are not remotely valid under her own premises.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
        Laws are always a means to an end - never an end in and of themselves. So the real question which must be addressed when proposing any law is very simple: to what end does this law point? What principle is in play here? I think that question must be resolved first and foremost, and unfortunately the author fails to do this. Instead she gets hung up on the application of the law necessarily being applicable to all. While it is admirable that she holds the universality of law in high regard, one can not support an unjust law in the first place.
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        • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
          It is not a matter of a "very simple to what end does this law point". She gave the standard that all laws must be for the protection of the rights of the individual and as such apply to everyone, not a case by case for each law citing the particular law's purpose without regard to the standard -- and then deciding ad hoc from there for different kinds of people, allowing some to plead exemptions for their own particular beliefs. The universal applicability of law is based on the principle of what law is for at all -- the protection of the rights of all individuals, which she explained. She did not adopt 'universality of application' as a floating abstraction out of nowhere. Exemptions violate some people's rights for the benefits of those demanding the expemptions. If the proposed law does not protect everyone's rights to begin with, then it shouldn't be a law at all and never get to the point requiring applying it to everyone. Preventing bad law is not a matter of religion and not an "exemption".
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          • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
            The universality which should be applied in this case is the very simple and straightforward rule "Congress shall pass no law" regarding the freedom of religion. The stance both the author and you are trying to take is that the law is an end in and of itself which further justifies itself axiomatically. That is not a supported argument in any way, shape, or form. Laws recognize universal truths such as natural rights, but can neither invent any such nor obviate any such while retaining either moral or legal validity. The desire that all laws should apply to everyone is laudable, but speaks not one word to the law itself, which must be verified first. The First Amendment clearly lays out that the "exemption" lies not on the side of religion, but on the side of government to override religion.

            "Exemptions violate some people's rights for the benefits of those demanding the expemptions. [sic]"

            Yes, they do. Which is why the Founders specifically crafted the First Amendment the way they did. They specifically placed the burden of proof on the government not to infringe on religious liberty because they considered the rights to Speech, Assembly, etc. of utmost importance. And they wrote that with the intent to prevent "bad law" - laws that violate conscience such as the ACA.
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
              You are stabbing in the dark with confused arguments. You cannot even begin to discuss the principles the rest of us are talking about without knowing what the article is about.

              The country was not founded on violating some people's rights for the benefit of religion.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                "The country was not founded on violating some people's rights for the benefit of religion."

                That's a strawman argument and you know it. The United States was founded on a whole litany of arguments as listed in the Declaration of Independence, but what came out of it was an explicit recognition of and protection for religion in addition to a host of other actions. Congress was also precluded from passing laws inhibiting the Press, inhibiting the possession of firearms, allowing for the quartering of soldiers, arbitrarily revoking the right of habeus corpus, etc. Those protections benefited everyone while preserving natural rights. I'm not sure where you are deriving this fictitious contention between religion and rights which clearly did not exist to the Founders.
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                • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
                  Your assertion that "The stance both the author and you are trying to take is that the law is an end in and of itself which further justifies itself axiomatically" is false. No one said that. No one. On the contrary Tara Smith and I have both emphasized that the proper purpose of law is to protect the rights of the individual.

                  It is not a "strawman" to observe that religious exemptions from valid laws are a threat to innocent people, and that religion is not an excuse for it. If a law protects the rights of the individual, then "exemptions" allow them to be violated. If a law violates the rights of individuals then it is wrong and wrong for everyone. Religious fervor has nothing to do with it. Laws that are wrong should be repealed for that reason -- because they are wrong in principle, not left in place for everyone but a privileged religion either imposing its religion or leaving everyone else subject to unjustified coercion. The Constitution only says that regarding a relation between religion and government, there should be none, neither imposing or outlawing religion. Government is to stay out. Religion has no special status or "exemptions" from law that properly applies to everyone and is justified without regard to religion.

                  The country and the nature of its government was not founded on the list of grievances against the King of England. The grievances were the public justification of the war separating from England, long before the Constitution, and not political philosophy establishing a new government. The country was founded on the Enlightenment principles of reason and the rights of the individual. It was not based on religion and It did not give privileged religious "exemptions" from law or any other status with religion as a supposed 'higher authority'. Regarding religion it only said to government: stay out.
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                    The entire origin and premise of the argument, however, is false. It takes the stance that deference to religion is an exception and according to the First Amendment it is the rule. Where a law created by Congress conflicts with religious observance, it is the government which bears the burden of proof in demonstrating that the law is specifically tailored, infringes no more than necessary, and fulfills a legitimate government purpose. The government can create exceptions to the directives in the First Amendment - resulting on infringements to certain religious beliefs - only upon this premise and in no other way. The author reverses this and this is why her argument utterly fails - again, not because of the claim of universality, but because she argues exceptions as if religious deference is the exception rather than the rule as declared in the First Amendment.

                    "The Constitution only says that regarding a relation between religion and government, there should be none, neither imposing or outlawing religion."

                    The actual text of the First Amendment is very clear and unconditional in its directive towards Congress: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" I'm not sure where this insistence of reading something into the wording that is not present comes from. The directive is very clear: Congress is specifically enjoined from prohibiting the free exercise of religion AND it is enjoined from establishing a national religion. And "religion" includes philosophies such as atheism which don't want to associate themselves as "religions". It covers anyone no matter what their belief set is.

                    "The country and the nature of its government was not founded on the list of grievances against the King of England."

                    You confuse the cause for separation with the principles of the new governmental structure. The Founders spent decades prior to 1776 trying to persuade England to reform their tyrannical pronouncements which singled out the colonies for disparate treatment. They were very reluctant to part with England but felt that there was no other alternative or remedy than to do so. It's really pretty clear when one reads the text of the Declaration of Independence, and even more so when one reads the debates of the Continental Congress on the matter. Good grief, there were many who argued during the debates on the Constitution that since the Articles of Confederation failed that we should have gone back to England. America and England separated because the King of England refused to treat citizens in the American colonies the same way he treated Englishmen.

                    Did the Founders value natural rights? Absolutely. Let us keep in mind, however, that the Declaration was signed 15 years prior to the ratification of the Constitution. While the Founders revered natural rights, they had only a rudimentary idea of what self-government would look like and their first attempt as embodied in the Articles of Confederation left much to be desired. It took them a failure and a thorough and exhausting look at all the other models of government throughout the ages to narrow things down to specific proposals they thought could compensate for the failures evident in the past. The Founders didn't set out to form a new country, they were driven to it because all other courses of action had been exhausted. It was only after they had signed the Declaration of Independence that they began the task of trying to decide on a new structure of government.
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
          What is an unjust law? In the absence of objective standards, anyone's claims of conscience become superior to the law.

          Even granted the action of objective standards, how do you parse anyone's claim to conscience? See the discussion on Rand Fans who steal from the public library. Even in the most strictly limited government, there will be some public property - the courts and the legislature, even if there is no executive. My conscience tells me to set up housekeeping in the commons and read Atlas Shrugged to everyone every day. What are you going to do?

          If your conscience tells you to disobey an unjust law, you still must accept the consequences of your choice. You do not get away with a crime.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
            "What is an unjust law?"

            A great question, actually. Justice always has to do with cause and effect, really. Justice says that if I hit my thumb with a hammer, it's going to hurt. Justice says that the rotational velocity of the Earth on its axis will result in a "day" of just over 24 hours in length. Cause -> effect. It is when people start attempting to deny causality and therefore justice that we get into trouble, is it not? Laws which declare a minimum wage lead to higher unemployment among the minimally skilled, yet the law is "intended" to provide more income for the minimally skilled. Obviously the law's cause->effect chain is invalid, therefore the law itself is not reflective of reality and is morally void.

            "Even granted the action of objective standards, how do you parse anyone's claim to conscience?"

            Another great question. You note the key to the answer yourself: that one's conscience must be rooted in objectivity or reality. Again: cause -> effect. If one is not rooted in the reality of justice, such a claim is morally void and unenforceable either by man or nature.

            "If your conscience tells you to disobey an unjust law, you still must accept the consequences of your choice. You do not get away with a crime. "

            Absolutely. That is because regardless whether we want it or not, justice (cause -> effect) is not ours to control. We can either recognize reality, or attempt to deny it.

            "My conscience tells me to set up housekeeping in the commons and read Atlas Shrugged to everyone every day. What are you going to do?"

            Encourage you! ;)
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
              Justice means treating people as they deserve to be treated. It has nothing to do with hammers and the rotational velocity of the earth. It a moral concept pertaining to relations between people. The principles of political philosophy and the validity of laws are based on a lot more understanding than "justice" alone as a starting point and require concepts like the rights of the individual. Free floating references to "justice" in discussing the validity of laws with no standards is hopeless.

              Religious conscience is not "rooted in objectivity or reality". It is subjective by nature. You have missed the distinction between violating a law and taking the consequences versus exemptions from the law for "conscience", which is anarchy, and which no government can sanction. Religious "conscience" is not a "higher law".
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              • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                "Justice means treating people as they deserve to be treated."

                Also known as the Golden Rule, that might be justice in terms of one individual toward another. I was referring to justice as a law of nature. Cause->Effect.

                "Religious conscience is not "rooted in objectivity or reality". "

                That's your opinion. I have evidence to the contrary and therefore I take an opposing stance. That is not to say that every belief is valid. It is merely a rebuke of the overly broad condemnation of everything not atheist.

                "You have missed the distinction between violating a law and taking the consequences versus exemptions from the law for "conscience", which is anarchy, and which no government can sanction. Religious "conscience" is not a "higher law". "

                Are the laws of man written in recognition of unchangeable, universal Truths or are they arbitrary opinions? You seem to act as if because a government scripts out a law that somehow that is all the "justification" they need. If so, then there are no need for morals at all - no need for universal absolutes and certainly no need for universality in law. Every moral law must be underpinned by valid principles or it violates the universal law of justice. Why do we take umbrage when a Communist government executes political dissidents? Because we experience a reaction - a recognition - that the universal right of life has just been violated. It doesn't matter that the Communist government is a government and that they passed a law saying it was okay to execute political dissidents. They violated a universal, moral principle in doing so. They violated justice.

                From whence springs this most visceral and emotional reaction, however? Conscience. It is not a learned behavior, but rather an innate recognition of some of the simple Laws of the universe. I am not so quick to deny the reality of conscience.
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    • Posted by stargeezer 6 years, 11 months ago
      I take it that you don't have any need of a service animal? Those of us who are paralyzed and confined to wheelchairs find them invaluable for picking up things I drop, opening doors, even getting medical assistance. The blind use them to safely move through our world. Are the laws that require their equal access abused by some who claim their pocket puppy is the same as my faithful, hard working lab who earns his chow by taking care of me every day are actually breaking the law. If they do not have a actual medical need that the animal serves for them, if they cannot furnish documentation that the animal is a trained service animal, they a frauds and should be ticketed.

      When corp America was forced to see that barriers like steps as the only entrance to their stores or service animals be banned were allowed, they discovered a new market for their wares. They also came (kicking and screaming) to discover that not all gimps were poor and destitute. Some of us have money to spend and we enjoy shopping as much as the next person. Corp America just had to be forced to conform to new ideas.

      I cannot express just how frustrating it is to sit in my wheelchair outside a shoe store while a clerk runs back and forth bring pairs of shoes to try on. Or trying to buy flowers for my wife? All that's not even thinking about curb cuts for sidewalk access, ramps into the courthouse, schools and other public building that a paralyzed Vet pays taxes for can be accessed.

      If I've made ANY dent into your ignorance for these accommodations I'll consider it a good day, but I'm not holding my breath.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 11 months ago
        My objection is not from ignorance at all. Accommodations cost money and therefore morally must be voluntary. The one for "service animals" especially so, because it is so often abused to defeat all restrictions on pets.

        Penn & Teller: BS! did a great episode on service animals and another on handicapped parking. They were right on. Both laws are BS. Those who demand them are either snowflakes or parasitic lawyers.
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
          You are wrong. I agree that passing laws is the wrong approach, but the cultural shift is appropriate, especially as it reflects on the debt that you owe to those who served in uniform.

          Intrusive, obstructive laws are not the sole province of progressives. We still have too many law-and-order conservatives who think that the way to solve a problem is to enact a newer stronger law.

          As entertaining as Penn & Teller's BS! has been, some of it also was BS.
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        • Posted by stargeezer 6 years, 11 months ago
          I hope you never suffer any traumatic life changing event that leaves you in need of such things. The reality of the world as it is may astound you young man.

          As for being a snowflake, I left any such foolishness that might have ever existed in me in the jungles of Vietnam when your parents were most likely still in diapers.

          You should gain some knowledge of the person you attempt insult. Like about the three the three businesses I've built from the ground up or the 4 earned degrees in both Arts and Sciences.

          Perhaps you might read in the archives about how in protest of the Obama bastardization of all our rights and freedoms, of his use of the IRS as a weapon against us, I locked my doors of a very successful business, discharged my employees and did my own John Galt.

          Over the past two years I've not been in here much because I've been working to see that some of wrong people didn't get elected.

          So other than not having a clue what you are talking about, what have you been doing?
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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
            I see that you took a Down vote for that. Normally, I would plus that back up to 1, but I left the insult to show the idiocy of some who come here. (I am against down-voting specifically because it is so easily abused.)

            On the subject of service animal laws, I disagree with you -- a cultural change is one thing; legal requirements are another -- but your statement in reply deserved plusses.
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            • Posted by stargeezer 6 years, 11 months ago
              Hi Mike! Good to hear from you again. Reasonable people can disagree without being disagreeable, as most of us have found here.

              I've restarted this post a couple times in a effort to remove myself from the equation, it's almost a impossible task. If we go back to 1987 when I first became aware of a group of folks trying to bring the ADA into existence, I can tell you that our world was a far different place for us in need of such accommodations.

              I had just visited a local junior college where I had hoped to take a few classes. Sadly, I was not going to be able to attend because the only building on the entire campus that had curb-cuts, ramp for access into the building, or even a partially accessible bathroom was the admin building. That stuff was there because they had a couple people working there in power scooters. The only accessible parking was also at the admin building. Some of the classroom buildings were up to 2 miles apart but the only place I could park my van, open the lift and have enough room to depart the lift, was at the admin building.

              The notion of "reasonable accommodation" was not even a concept. One person even informed me that they just didn't have students in wheelchairs. To whit I replied that I wondered if it was because nobody using a wheelchair could get into the classrooms (which were all two story buildings with no elevators). Please allow me to say that I found such lack astonishing. Had spent a year and a half at Walter Reed and was used to far better accommodations.

              I had spent some time learning how most people saw a person in a wheelchair as disabled, handicapped or worse yet patronized me by asking my wife what it was I'd like for my order at a restaurant. Some might claim, of course You are disabled, you can't walk! To those I say just give me access to the starting line, I'll do the rest, but I must have access.

              We I started my real estate business later that year we started by what is now known as flipping houses, while keeping a few as rentals. Every home we rehabbed was done with the idea of universal access in mind and one of the reasons the homes resold quickly with a good profit was the universal design concepts we incorporated. We carefully examined our cost to make these changes and our determination was that it cost us about $300-500 dollars per home, which was reflected in the resale price. Not much on a $120-250k home.

              A couple years later we moved away from rehabbing residential and into building strip malls which was much more profitable, if not as personally as satisfying. I've always loved building places for people and children to live their whole lives.

              For businesses operating a retail trade the cost to new construction much less with the biggest cost being the floor space that needs to be dedicated handicap bathrooms. The lost square footage, the cost of grab bars and tall toilet still should be less expensive than the price of rehabbing residential homes as I was doing.

              I've been privileged to speak at several dinners, forums and such like on the subject of building accessibility and the most basic point I try to make is that anybody can use a ramp, but only people who can walk can use steps. Anybody can use a elevator, but only those who can walk can use stairs.

              I agree with you about cultural changes being the best to have handled access in the private sector, but the public sector was entrenched in the notion that they could and would not spend tax dollars on what most considered unnecessary items like curb-cuts and accessible parking.

              I'll never forget the day that we asked a certain senator to sit in my vans driver seat while it was parked inside what was then accepted as an accessible parking spot next to his own car, both legally parked according to DC's parking laws as existed then. He was instructed how to operate the drivers seat to position it to transfer into my wheelchair. As he then pressed the button to open the side doors of the van and deploying the lift. The lift is about 4.5 feet long when extended, so as he sat in my chair he could clearly see that the lift would drop down across the roof of his car. He finally understood why we were demanding 8' access zone on the right side.

              I could go on and on about this but the point is that in order to make the cultural change that we both agree needed to have been made the choices are to sit back and trust that mans unerring desire for doing the right thing (sure) they will to solve this social problem to fix itself OR as we were forced after years of begging businesses to just build a ramp so that we could just get into their stores to spend. our money. Sometimes the status quo is just too comfortable a place to be, we need a kick in the butt to make the societal change that was needed was the ADA, where it could be laid out as a pathway to equal accessibility, as promised in the constitution.
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              • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 11 months ago
                The Constitution does not promise equal access to anything except the law's protection. (And does not authorize federal money to be spent on schools, welfare, or most of the other stuff it now is. All that is the result of New Deal precedents that must be overturned.)

                And I have seen wheelchairs capable of climbing stairs. Handing out those would have been far cheaper than what has already been spent to make buildings compatible with ADA.

                While having amenities feels nice, ADA is symptomatic of what makes it outrageously more expensive to do business in the US than in many other parts of the world -- the notion that just because some service is nice, everyone in business should be forced to provide it to the public as a condition of staying in business. Once that bad principle gets admitted into government, we all get nibbled to death by parasites.
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                • Posted by stargeezer 6 years, 11 months ago
                  If you are referring to me as a parasite we really are done. You seem to think that being an objectivist is being a asshole, you've got things all wrong. It's not being a patsy for bullies who kick old ladies because off a sidewalk because they were walking too slow either. It's not about operating retail business where you make your customers pass a physical fitness test in order to buy from you. I figure that if you want my money you'll make certain I can get through your doors.

                  If you manage to somehow grow old enough to see how absolutely how foolish your views are I hope you are not in need of the things so many of us are required to use, just to survive. Yes, there are countries that have nothing like the ADA, mostly they 3rd world holes where Hobbesian rule and everybody who has any power could care less about the people they crush in order to maintain their power. If you know anything about Atlas Shrugged, you can find their like in charge of the government consumed with hate against those who can make and do things.

                  Oh, those wheelchairs that can climb steps are $35,000 to $50,000 and since they are considered experimental, there''s no financial help from insurance to pay for one, the VA will not issue one, it's a cash deal and then there are big limits on the size and shapes of stairs they climb. Three years ago I got to take one for a ride, it took 25 minutes to climb 12 steps. Coming down steps requires you to back down the steps, you backing backwards down steps by rocking the chair back and forth by shifting your weight. And not worth risking my life on more than once.

                  They are not ready for prime time.

                  One last point before I quit this, I drive two specially adapted vehicles these days. One is a new Chrysler town and country that cost $33K to buy and $38k to adapt the other is a Dodge Ram 3500 Dully diesel powered truck that cost $65k to buy and I spent another $40K to modify it to be able to drive it myself. No governmental help, no insurance paid for it. I also live on a 146 acre estate with a modest 3800sf home, a 25 acre lake, 600 yd rifle range. As I said, I have been very successful in business. If I'm a parasite, I guess being a parasite has it's perks.

                  You say "amenities feels good" like the wheelchair I sit in is optional? It's comfortable, or so I'm told. I've not been able to feel my legs, butt or lower waist since 1985 when I fell off the top of a missile launcher I was working on, while on active duty in Germany. Amenities??? Like the little perk of only being able to urinate with a catheter? Or do you mean how my shoes last a long time since I don't actually walk on them?

                  Here's how I see it, I spent 16 years of protecting everybody back home, did so of my own free will and would do so again. I became paralyzed and lost the use of my legs as a direct result of that service. Being able to access sidewalks, street signal light switches and the courthouse, and other buildings in order that any grievances I may have may be addressed is not too much to expect.And I do believe you'll find that right as a citizen in the constitution, unless this current generation has given that up too.
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                  • Posted by $ nickursis 6 years, 11 months ago
                    Excellent points Stargeezer. Obviously you have done very well, and you do have every right to have the same access to anywhere as anyone else. The system often forgets and ignores it's verterans, giving only lip service to them. I did see one guy who said after the latest VA scandal they ought to fire the lot and just allow vets to run it, which may be the right way to go. Like every major business, the cheap way if often the only way. I hate to think of what a less capable person has to endure in a similar situation as yours.I served 20 years in submarines and got out when I could, as it was turning into a political sinkhole and not worth the trouble anymore. Then I found out big corporations are just the same.....
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                    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
                      Some of them also "under water"! But no one has a "right" to the "same access" as anyone else. Access must be provided by someone, and so do extraordinary measures.
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              • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
                Thanks for the thoughtful and thought-provoking reply. I believe that cultural changes often preview the law. Jackie Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers ahead of Brown v. Board; and I think that the change in baseball was the more important because of what it said about the American psyche. On the other hand, it still took federal troops and forced busing to integrate schools 10 and even 15 years after the law supposedly forbade segregation.

                I think that the ADA just recognized an undeniable fact.

                Thanks, also, for the insights into the low cost of conformance to the ADA.
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                • Posted by stargeezer 6 years, 11 months ago
                  I am old enough to remember the separate "Whites only" and "colored" signs at water fountains in our courthouse when I was just a small kid back home. Around 56-57 if I recall correctly.

                  I remember it so clearly because of how shocked I was after Dad explained it to me. I played with the kids in our well mixed rural area and drank from their faucets as often as they drank from ours and nobody thought a thing about it. I just wasn't raised to see color or race and could not believe that anybody did.

                  Thanks again Mike. I look forward to being around more now.

                  Be well my friend.
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  • Posted by zagros 6 years, 11 months ago
    I should point out that there is no allowance for religious exemption to skirt criminal law even from a Constitutionalist perspective and there hasn't been such a recognized exemption for 140 years. See the US Supreme Court case, Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. (8 Otto.) 145 (1878), religious duty is not a defense against criminal indictment.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
      Yes, but the applicable standard is that Government may only supercede religion where there is a clear and compelling reason for doing so AND the infringement must be of the least level necessary to achieve the task. Primary deference is still given to the religious belief because the Government always carries the burden of proof in such cases.
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      • Posted by zagros 6 years, 11 months ago
        Yes, but there is no "clear and compelling reason" to ban polygamy. After all, one can engage in de facto polygamy since adultery is no longer a criminal activity in most states.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
    There are actually two separate and distinct arguments being made. The one refers to the power to tax and exemptions to that taxation. The other is for exemptions to other various laws where there is a conflict with the First Amendment. They should not be conflated as they have been here.

    I note with all seriousness that the Founding Fathers rejected all personal taxes, opting instead for import taxes (tariffs). They rebelled against the Stamp Tax, the Townsend/Intolerable Acts, and many others as serious threats to freedom of speech. Taxation holds the power of coercion and stifling of free speech. As such, I fully support the exclusions given to tax-exempt organizations. The penultimate goal is to eliminate corporate taxes altogether.

    (As a secondary note, corporate taxes are almost always passed through to the consumer anyway in the price of the goods, so corporate income taxes end up getting paid by individuals anyway...)
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
      Applying laws unequally for religion is unjust and itself a violation of the First Amendment.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
        The First Amendment clearly states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..." (emphasis mine). It's pretty clear and plain that Congress first and foremost duty is to give utmost deference to the freedom of thought and religion expressly. I think you forget that the Amendment in and of itself is a law and sets the priority of actions for Congress and states that any Laws passed by Congress which prohibit the free exercise of religion are prima facie unConsitutional and therefore invalid. Therefore there can not be a law which violates the First Amendment which carries any weight.

        I would also point out that for your argument to hold any water the First Amendment would have to be declared null and void. You have the legal argument completely backwards - holding that any common law can disregard an Amendment to the Constitution and set its own fulfillment of higher priority. Good luck using that logic in any court. When a judge agrees with you it will mean the end of free speech and the end of the Constitution.
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        • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
          Applying laws unequally for religion is a violation of the entire Constitution and its reason for existing.

          Laws granting privileges to religion violate the prohibition on supporting religion. The other side of preventing supporting religion was to prevent laws specifically against religion, not to provide exemptions of laws that apply to everyone. There is no rational excuse for that and is not what was meant by prohibiting freedom of religion. Religion is not an excuse to be exempt from law by claiming religion says so.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
            Actually, you have it completely backwards. The Constitution and its Amendments take precedence in resolving legal conflicts - not the other way around. Any new law must first comply with the requirements of the Constitution and its Amendments before being valid for enforcement.

            "Laws granting privileges to religion violate the prohibition on supporting religion."

            Laws must do everything possible to accommodate religion - not the other way around. If a law runs afoul of the First Amendment, the Supreme Court has already ruled that such laws must prove 1) that there exists a legitimate government interest, 2) that the restrictions apply to everyone generally, and 3) that the restrictions were crafted so as to have as little impact as possible. And the burden of proof rests with the Legislature - not the Plaintiff. Freedom of religion is the law - not the other way around.

            For more than 100 years following the ratification of the Constitution, religious services were held on Sundays in the Capitol building. And there was no perceived conflict or governmental "institution" of religion associated with that action until the last 70 years. Until only recently, monuments of the Ten Commandments had been a staple of every courthouse and even the Supreme Court for 200+ years. Why is it that those who were present at the signing of the Constitution had such a different view of "establishment of religion" than those of today? I would submit that what is being called "separation of church and state" is actually misplaced hostility towards religion.
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
              Please read the article. Your posts are very confused. Your religion is not a privileged position.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                The Founders very much disagree with both you and the author.

                Every individual has the ability to decide for themselves what constitutes their Pursuit of Happiness. To restrict or abridge the right to pursue one's own happiness according to one's own belief set is to promulgate tyranny. There are no two ways about it. Without freedom of thought, Speech, and Assembly, there is no freedom in society at all. One can not say to one group that the government allows them to pursue happiness according to their consciences and deny another group the same right. That would violate the very universality the author argues and which I agree with. That would work if an atheist government attempted to outlaw or restrict Christianity every bit as much as the other way around.

                Government's primary role is to protect rights - not pass laws. You have argued this yourself. As soon as one acknowledges that the aforementioned Speech, Assembly and Press are natural rights, the rest is ancillary. So there is the question: do you acknowledge that Speech, Assembly, and the Press are natural rights?
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                • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
                  Everyone deciding for himself what constitutes pursuit of happiness without regard to protecting the rights of the individual under objective law is anarchy. The founders of the country did not support anarchy and did not build it into "exemptions" for religion. There is no special exemption for religion from valid laws. You are very confused. Not passing laws that interfere with a persons ideas is not an "exemption".
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                    No one said everyone gets to write their own laws. You conflate two principles: the rule of law and personal freedom. In a limited government, people are free to pursue their own desires - whatever they may be - so long as these do not conflict with the rules of an organized society. And when there is a conflict, government must make its case that the law should override the religious observance, with government bearing the burden of proof.

                    "The founders of the country did not support anarchy"

                    I agree. They supported a limited government that wasn't constantly trying to tell people what to do or how to live their lives.

                    " and did not build it into "exemptions" for religion."

                    They built religious tolerance as the rule, with government intervention as the exception. For the umpteenth time, see the First Amendment. It is very literal and very straightforward.
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        • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
          You did not read Prof. Tara Smith's article. She addresses that explicitly and in full. You are arguing against a straw man. Read the article and speak to that.

          And what if your religion requires human sacrifice?
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          • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
            The Supreme Court has already ruled that legal deference must fall on the side of religion and they established a three-pronged test regarding the Constitutionality of any law that infringes on religious freedom. First, the law must serve a compelling government interest. Second, the law must be broad-based - it may not target any single religion. Third, the law must be "narrowly tailored" to serve that compelling interest. The burden of proof falls with the Legislature to argue that it has successfully negotiated all three.

            "And what if your religion requires human sacrifice?"

            Any religious act which violates the Declaration of Independence is not granted protection under the Constitution. Since the affirmation of life as a fundamental human right is specifically mentioned (and its protection guaranteed under the Second Amendment), the First Amendment's protections become subordinate to the basic human right of life. Thus Congress' duty is first to protecting life and second to protecting religion. In the case where those two provisions are in conflict, the precedence is clear: the duty to protect life is paramount.

            I would also note that a religious claim for the use of peyote among certain American Indian tribes was also struck down as "unprotected" under the First Amendment, though the legal rationale for that one is certainly less clear cut than one on human sacrifice.

            A third example which was successfully argued in favor of restriction but which is of even more dubious merit (see point one and point two of the three-pronged test) was the government's interference in marriage by outlawing polygamy.

            As for cases in the affirmative, the recent cases of Hobby Lobby and Little Sisters of the Poor illustrate examples where government restrictions on religion were thrown out because they didn't meet the three-pronged test.

            Please remember that the First Amendment IS a law in and of itself - it is a law that gives preference in all cases to freedom of religion. You have the argument completely backwards: it is the exception that is allowed to override religion - not the rule.

            PS - is there a way you can find a link that doesn't require registration?
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
              We are discussing what should be, not selected government confirmation of its control over "exemptions". The reason why the Hobby Lobby case was wrong are explained in the article. Citing parts of the Constitution as "subordinate" for some purposes but not others is rationalization of an indefensible position. The discussion is about exemptions in principle.

              The registration required for reading the article is free. SSRN is a site for academic and other research papers.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                So you would advocate to overturn the First Amendment? That is the only way that religious deference becomes an "exemption". As I have stated and will continue to state: the exemptions are the times when religious beliefs must give way to secular law - not the other way around.

                "Citing parts of the Constitution as "subordinate" for some purposes but not others is rationalization of an indefensible position."

                There always exist an order of supremacy in laws. The Founders made their order of supremacy quite clear. You are welcome to disagree with it, but until it is revoked, it is the active rule of Law. "Congress shall make no law" is very clear: religious tolerance is specifically given higher priority over any other law. The Constitution is the Supreme law of the land and its articles supercede - as in take precedence over - ANY other law. Period. And I have never stated otherwise.

                The entire problem with this opinion is that it turns the First Amendment on its head and attempts to argue that religious institutions must justify themselves rather than that government to justify its interference in religion. The author fundamentally misunderstands which side bears the burden of proof.
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                • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
                  "So you would advocate to overturn the First Amendment" is nonsense. The Constitution did not and should not be interpreted to set up a system of religious exemptions from the law any more than supporting religion. Either a law is proper or it isn't. Either it is an objective law protecting the rights of the individual or it is not.

                  Laws persecuting people for religious beliefs, not protecting people's rights from those claiming a religious motivation, are improper, not an "exemption" for religion. The same holds for any convictions on any topic. Laws using the force of government to promote religious ideas or any other ideas are equally wrong. Religious arguments have nothing to do with deciding on proper laws. It is irrelevant.

                  The wording in the First Amendment was too narrow in focusing on religion in contrast to any philosophical convictions, which are among the right of freedom of speech and otherwise recognized unenumerated rights. It does not mean "exemptions" from law. Either a law is proper or it isn't. Religion has nothing to do with it. Persecuting people for religious beliefs is not better or worse than persecuting anyone for his ideas.

                  The unfortunate original emphasizing, for historical reasons, of religion in the First Amendment has served as an invalid hook for rationalizing religious exploitation of law and government power as if religion had a special status above everyone else. It does not.
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                    "is nonsense."

                    You didn't answer the question. Do you advocate overturning the First Amendment?

                    "The wording in the First Amendment was too narrow in focusing on religion in contrast to any philosophical convictions..."

                    Oh, so because your going to quibble on whether or not to consider atheism a "religion" that you don't feel you are protected by the First Amendment? I don't see any judges singling out atheists as not applicable under the First Amendment. I think you're safe.

                    "Laws using the force of government to promote religious ideas or any other ideas are equally wrong. Religious arguments have nothing to do with deciding on proper laws."

                    Uh, I hate to break this to you but every single law is an authorization to use force in pursuit of an idea - an end. What you're really arguing is that a law pursuing an end you view to be "religious" is immoral in your eyes. That's your perspective on the matter. That's your definition of how to pursue happiness. And it is your right to pursue that and that right should be protected from government interference as far as that pursuit does not violate other natural rights. But that very same protection offered to you is also offered to others who believe differently - in many cases very differently. That is the crux of the First Amendment: that every single person should be unfettered by the coercion of government to pursue happiness as they see fit and to join with those of like mind.
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                    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
                      Your insinuation is nonsense. It is not a valid question at all; it is a false accusation insinuating that anyone who rejects your rationalizations of revisionist history and false philosophical premises must be against the Constitution -- as you try to wrap a militant religious fervor in "the First Amendment". Their is no excuse for religious exemptions from valid laws, which apply to everyone. There is no basis in the Constitution or anywhere else for exemptions for religion as a higher authority of subjectivist "conscience". Rejecting religious anarchy for its "exemptions" means protecting and strengthening the First Amendment, not repealing it.

                      Rejecting nonsensical notions that atheism is just another religion is not a "quibble". Laws routinely violate the rights of individuals. They should be repealed for that reason, not left in place with exemptions for the religious. That was the flaw in the Hobby Lobby case. It shows how the wording of the First Amendment was too narrow, putting an emphasis on religion that should have explicitly pertained to everyone's freedoms. It shows how religionists demanding "exemptions" are willing to violate others' rights as they try to exempt themselves from a bad law instead of "overturning" it.

                      "Every single law" is not "an authorization to use force in pursuit of an idea". That is subjectivism. Valid laws must be formulated to protect the rights of individuals, objectively validated. That understanding, and the application, of the concept of rights requires rational "ideas"; "ideas" does not mean that any idea is ripe for being imposed by the force of law.

                      "Pursuit of happiness" by the individual in living his own life is not a subjectivist, open-ended justification for whatever anyone feels like doing to others out of religious fervor. The notion of religious zealots that they have a "right" to try and impose their religion is subjectivism leading to tyranny. You do not have a "right" to "join with those of like mind", i.e., a gang, to impose your religion by the force of law in the name of a stolen concept of "pursuit of happiness" That is not what either the Enlightenment or what Ayn Rand held by the "pursuit of happiness".

                      The subjectivism behind it is the same religious subjectivism clamoring for religious "exemptions" based on its appeals to an open ended religious "conscience" as a supposed "higher authority". It is the same subjectivism of religious faith seeking an "exemption" from reason, objectivity and reality -- the biggest religious "exemption" of them all. It illustrates how religion is fundamentally antithetical to a society based on the rights of the individual protected by limited government.

                      Ayn Rand emphasized the importance of the role of ideas in setting the course of any culture and nation. She emphasized the necessity of a philosophical base of reason and objectivity in acquiring knowledge of a knowable world by valid means, in discovering the principles of the proper course of action of individuals in their personal lives, and applying that to identify the requirements of how to organize society and form a proper government. It isn't arbitrary, with no distinction between rational philosophy and anti-intellectual religious subjectivists rationalizing and imposing their faith in the name of a stolen notion of "pursuit of happiness" while pretending to be in accordance with the founding of this country..
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                        No, it is actually quite a valid, relevant and simple question: Do you advocate overturning the First Amendment?

                        "It shows how the wording of the First Amendment was too narrow, putting an emphasis on religion that should have explicitly pertained to everyone's freedoms."

                        Ah, so you do support overturning the First Amendment and re-writing it to be your version. So let's hear it. Propose your version of the First Amendment and let's discuss it.

                        "Valid laws must be formulated to protect the rights of individuals, objectively validated."

                        Ah, but you don't view the right to religious belief as a right, do you? In your "objectively validated" view, religions don't fall under the protections of a "proper" First Amendment because in your opinion they are all nonsense. In your world, only one viewpoint is protected and dissent from that is not tolerated.

                        ""Every single law" is not "an authorization to use force in pursuit of an idea". That is subjectivism."

                        The only reason we create governments is to instill in it authorization to use force. Laws are nothing more than pronouncements which state what the expected behaviors are of the members of society and what government will do (force/coercion) upon violation. Laws absolutely are authorizations of force in pursuit of particular expectations.

                        If we create a law such that "anyone who murders will be hung", we are pronouncing an expectation (don't murder) based on a principle (right to life) and authorizing force (you will die) for violators. One can argue whether or not the expectation is based on a correct moral principle certainly, but one can not deny that the use of force is explicitly stated and granted.

                        In the case of the Hobby Lobby case, the "law" that was created said that everyone had to provide contraceptives in their medical plans or face fines from the government. While it was universal and threatened the use of force duly granted to the Government, the law itself was based on two invalid principles. The first was that the government has the power to compel people to purchase a specific product, in this case health insurance. That this was upheld by John Roberts is a travesty of justice as demonstrated in the tortured and openly contradictory language of his ruling. The second, however, and the one on which the Government failed to prove its case lay in the mandate for coverage of abortive devices. The fundamental principle here is the protection of life, so it seems quite contradictory that the government would be taking a stand opposed to the protection of life, nevertheless that is the position they took. Moreover, they were attempting to mandate religious observance in violation of the First Amendment, and this is where they properly ran afoul. They would be establishing a national religious observance - universal no doubt - but it would specifically exclude those who believe differently (a majority I might add) from their free exercise of religion. Under the First Amendment, this was a violation not only of the Establishment Clause but also a violation of the Free Exercise Clause - thus that infringement upon religious liberty was struck down.

                        "It illustrates how religion is fundamentally antithetical to a society based on the rights of the individual protected by limited government."

                        Well, you're welcome to your viewpoint but there is zero support for such in the American Founding. And if you feel so strongly that the American Founders got it wrong, you're welcome to start your own country and do it the way you want. I've heard that it wouldn't cost much to buy a number of African nations, and they could certainly use a change from the warlords and tribal conflicts. You could get your nation started and then show to all the rest of us just how ridiculous we are in promoting religious freedom and tolerance.
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    • Posted by zagros 6 years, 11 months ago
      I absolutely agree that corporate taxes need to be eliminated but not for the reason you are giving. After all, if "corporate taxes are almost always passed through to the consumer anyway in the price of goods", there is no need to eliminate corporate taxes -- your argument fails as a result. Corporate taxes need to be eliminated because of much more insidious aspects.

      The corporate income tax is absolutely NOT passed on the price of goods (though other taxes are sometimes passed on -- it depends on the elasticity of demand and supply of the good in question). That is because the corporate income tax is paid only on actual income rather than the price of the good itself and will differ from company to company. The corporate income tax ends up harming shareholders (who are individuals) and ends up reducing retirement income as a result (since pension funds make up a sizable portion of corporate shareholding). It will also end up harming investment because it lowers the rate of return on such investment. Lowering investment harms individuals because it reduces the productivity of both labor and capital, ultimately reducing personal income.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
        I'm not following the first part of your argument. Why does the argument fail?

        "...depends on the elasticity of demand and supply of the good in question)."

        To some degree, yes, but most goods are very elastic and taxes are one of the components to your costing structures in cost accounting (basic business course). My point is that a corporate tax in reality is just another tax on the individual that is being cloaked as a tax on someone else. That's the way it gets sold to the People and is precisely the way the 18th Amendment was sold (that it would only be a tax on the rich 1%). It's a bait-and-switch.

        The other part of your argument similarly runs into some accounting nuances. Dividends are decreased due to corporate taxes - there is no question about that - because dividends are paid from after-tax income. Salaries always come out pre-tax, however, and retirement accounts are a mixed bag of pre- (Roth IRA) and post-tax (conventional IRA).

        "it lowers the rate of return on such investment."

        Sure. It will lower sales because of the higher product/service costs and because it decreases the money available to be used by the business (re-invested) or paid to shareholders.
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        • Posted by zagros 6 years, 11 months ago
          Your argument that "corporate taxes are almost always passed through to the consumer" - this is simply FALSE. By using the term "consumer", you conflated that argument with your genuinely true argument that it affects individuals. Individuals can be consumers, producers, shareholders, etc. Corporate income taxes simply do not affect consumer prices in any measurable way. Indeed, if companies COULD simply "pass on" corporate income taxes (like they do excise taxes) to consumers, there would be no legitimate difference between a sales tax and a corporate income tax. Notice that I am agreeing with your overall assessment. However, I just want you to be more clear in your statements.

          As to your statement, "most goods are very elastic" -- it depends on the definition of the good. If we are discussing an individual company's product (for example, gasoline), it is highly elastic. If one gas station reduces its price, other gas stations in the immediate area must price match. Thus if we tried to place a tax on only ONE of the stations (similar to what would happen if we impose a tax on Chevron but not on BP -- this incidentally is what happens with corporate income taxes when they are imposed on our companies but not on foreign companies, but I digress), Chevron will not be able to "pass on" the price increase because BP isn't paying it as well and thus must match BP's price to stay competitive. On the other hand, if we impose the tax on ALL gasoline, every gasoline station can raise prices (which is exactly what happens when we place an excise tax on gasoline).

          In other words, my entire issue is with the statement that "corporate taxes are almost always passed through to the consumer anyway in the price of goods, so corporate income taxes end up getting paid by individuals anyway." This not only isn't true but it harms the overall argument that you have carefully (and otherwise correctly) stated.
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          • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
            Even the generality of the tax does not supply a simple answer to the question of 'who pays the tax'. Every tax is a distortion. If prices can't be raised by the amount of the tax or some portion of it, the business takes the loss -- if it continues in business at all. Costs are not equal between businesses. If the tax distortion is serious enough, as it sucks the otherwise normal increases in consumer well-being, efficiency of production, and the otherwise normal price decreases out of the economy, it could cause price increases more than the original tax, and at lower volume than would have otherwise been. The effects of these distortions cannot be easily predicted with all the feedback influences throughout the economy and the differences between businesses, subsequent investment choices, and consumer preferences, substitutions, going without, etc. Now add up all the taxes and regulations, with the differences between jurisdictions, consumers, investors and businesses, and the progressive increase of government, and you have a real mess of distortions and injustices in a cancerous process whose economic results throughout the economy no one can predict except to say "down". How much of a tax increase may be passed on to a price increase by whom is only one small part of it. It's a lot more complex and larger in scope than someone looking at his "cost accounting" books and unilaterally deciding to "pass on the tax as a price increase".
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          • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
            "Your argument that "corporate taxes are almost always passed through to the consumer" - this is simply FALSE."

            Please take a cost accounting class. Companies take into account the taxes they will pay when computing the prices they will charge for goods and services. Depending on the elasticity of demand for the goods/services and other market conditions, the company may or may not be able to incorporate the full tax burden into the cost of the item, but nevertheless, taxes absolutely do get taken into account.

            "Corporate income taxes simply do not affect consumer prices in any measurable way."

            This is patently false. Please see any of the following links:
            http://www.finweb.com/taxes/are-most-...
            "Generally speaking all of the costs incurred by a company to offer a product or service are included in the pricing of a company's products or services."

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_...
            Note the shifting of the supply/demand curve as the result of incorporation of taxes. Fewer products/services are being purchased as a direct result of the higher prices of those services due to tax burden.

            http://www.heritage.org/taxes/report/...
            This was a paper outlining in detail the effects of lowering the corporate tax rate from 35% to 25%. It goes into great detail.

            The last article is particularly interesting because it highlights the fact that a lower corporate tax affects not only corporations, but individuals as well. This was my point when I noted that corporate taxes are effectively a hidden tax on the consumer. It also directly refutes your assertion in detail.
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
              Of course companies pay attention to taxes when setting prices -- and a lot more. But costs cannot be arbitrarily added to a price. Costs put a lower limit on prices, and when they are added to price they have other bad consequences, which in turn influences, with or without price increases, who can stay in business in an economy at what level, especially as tax increases sucking money out of the economy further reduce the amount of money that individuals have to spend for their relative priorities, whether consumption or investment. This is an issue of economics analysis, not just "cost accounting" followed by rote price increases. The question of "who really pays a tax" is a complicated one that depends on many factors and feedback influences throughout the economy. The taxes are paid by everyone, but not equally and not necessarily as a direct consumer price, as the distortions propagate through the business, the industry and the economy.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 10 months ago
                I believe that's what I said, yes.
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                • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
                  You wrote that "corporate taxes are almost always passed through to the consumer anyway in the price of the goods". That isn't true. We all pay, in different degrees, for costs of taxation burdening the economy, but it isn't in the simplistic form of a direct addition to the price simply "passed on".
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  • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . .”26 Imagine an alternative First Amendment that included only one of these statements, without the other. Had it guaranteed free exercise without placing a bar on state establishment, that might have suggested that the government is to encourage religion, to positively smooth its path by especially favoring religious activities. If, instead, the Amendment had assured non-establishment without mentioning any commitment to protect free exercise, that might have suggested government’s active hostility to religion, the belief that religion poses a threat to be subdued. The combination of the two clauses, in short, wards off natural misinterpretations that either one of them, by itself, might have nourished.

    "Note that under an overly robust interpretation of “free exercise,” the two clauses would work at cross-purposes. If one believes that “free exercise” entails favored legal treatment (including privileges that the nonreligious do not enjoy), then it would seem that by respecting individuals’ free exercise of religion, the government is “establishing” a religion, insofar as it is extending additional forms of support to the religious. And by that measure of what respect for “free exercise” demands, to the extent that the government refrains from “establishing” religion, it would be failing to respect free exercise. So in this way, the two clauses would work against one another. Pg 50 pr 4 Pg 51 pr 4
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    • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
      One note, however: the personal and corporate income taxes weren't made a part of American life until 1913 - more than 120 years after the adoption of the Constitution. To try to read into the First Amendment any kind of tax treatment is not supported to any degree. If anything, it should be noted that the Framers intentionally avoided any kind of personal or corporate taxes because they themselves had already fought the oppression of the Stamp Act, the Townsend/Intolerable Acts, and many others. The Stamp Act in particular was applicable to Free Speech because it covered newspapers.
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  • Posted by Dobrien 6 years, 11 months ago
    The connection of Prof Tara Smith to BB&T and your post made me think of this .
    BB&T flooding college campuses with Ayn Rand books, in 2012 we asked Harold Bloom, Sterling Professor of the Humanities and English at Yale University in an email to assess Rands writing talent. Bloom responded: “Ayn Rand was a writer of no value whatsoever, whether aesthetic or intellectual. The Tea Party deserves her, but the rest of us do not. It is not less than obscene that any educational institution that relies even in part on public funds should ask students to consider her work. We are threatened these days by vicious mindlessness and this is one of its manifestations.”

    Sterling Professor Harold Bloom at Yale is mindless.
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
      And "of no value whatsoever", though all too common at universities. He sounds like one of the snotty pseudo-intellectuals at the parties where Francisco easily tore them apart.
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 6 years, 11 months ago
    Heck let's take an opposite tack on this and use the religious exemption to instead allow ALL to not pay taxes based on whatever they want to call their own personal religious beliefs.

    BTW, on the Sikh child example. I have personally seen Sikh children carry Rubber Knives while at school as a compromise to their religion.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 11 months ago
      Finally, someone else gets the right approach. Taxes on production are an abomination and an insult to every individual who wants to live free and be responsible for himself.
      The only answer is to stop all income taxation and let the federal government learn to produce services that people voluntarily buy, or let the federal government die if it can't compete in a free martket.
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      • Posted by Eyecu2 6 years, 11 months ago
        Oh I am Ok with some forms of taxation. I do not want to be bothered by toll roads everywhere; therefore, I am Ok with a sales tax on Gasoline and Diesel fuel. As long as those taxes are used for the roads infrastructure. Additionally, I would support the idea of a Flat tax per person to support the Military as I believe that our boarders should be defended. (I do not however support the idea of our forces going over seas at this time.)

        There are a VERY LIMITED few things that them being tax funded makes sense. Things that are unreasonable to have handled on a private basis. Likely there would not be more than could be counted on 1 hand, I offered 2 of them here.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 11 months ago
          With today's technology toll roads do not have to be something that slows transportation significantly any more.
          Taxation is an excuse for government to grow beyond any stated reason for existence. The free market will provide solutions in record time if we are smart enough not to allow government to take our scarce resources. Government has proven repeatedly throughout history that no government can be trusted to serve limited purposes. If we continue to allow government to tax us, history will just repeat itself yet again. Enough is enough. Government is not the solution; it is the problem.
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          • Posted by Eyecu2 6 years, 11 months ago
            I completely agree with everything that you have said; however, I cannot envision even automated toll cameras on every corner. Not to mention how I would hate to have it that obvious that literally every place you drive would then be tracked. Yes I know that they are tracking EVERYTHING but I enjoy the bit of delusional privacy that we enjoy.
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            • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 11 months ago
              Europe has had toll transponders that don't keep detailed individual records for years. Those countries built the systems that way because they learned the hard way what people like the Stasi could do with the data once they had it.
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              • Posted by Eyecu2 6 years, 11 months ago
                I know but would never trust the government not to keep the information and would rather pay my part for road maintenance via gas taxes versus tolls.

                Either way you would pay and the gas tax maintains more of an illusion of privacy.
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
      The First Amendment is too narrow in that it talks about religion instead of all ideas. Trying to make everything into a "religion" is worse, obliterating the distinction between faith and rationality, and is not a solution to the inequity.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 11 months ago
    Over a rather long lifetime, I have seen religion be the cause of many horrid things and get away with it. To my thinking, a law should be a law with the only exemptions being put forth in a court of law and only for the most extreme circumstances.
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  • Posted by Storo 6 years, 11 months ago
    The Constitution, 1st Amendment, states that, with respect to religion, "Congress shall make no law.....prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".
    So, if a baker refuses to bake a cake for an LGBT wedding citing his religious belief that homosexuality is "an abomination in the sight of God", he is within his right as an exercise of his religious belief. The LGBT bride and groom can go elsewhere to get their cake.
    If a Muslim gets an invitation to a wedding where alcohol is served at the reception, he has a choice to go or not go because of his religious belief regarding the religious prohibition against alcohol. What's the Muslim going to do? Demand that the wedding party not allow adult beverages? Yet that is precisely what is being done to the baker who is exercising his religious beliefs.
    I disagree strongly with Dr. Smith's assertion that the government has the authority "....to make people do as it says regardless of whether or not they would like to." This is NOT in any respect the kind of government that's the Founding Fathers were establishing. In fact, it is just the opposite. They had lived under a government that had forced them to do things whether or not they wanted to, and wanted no more of such a government.
    Our government was founded on the principle of personal freedom which allowed for the individual to speak freely, believe as he chooses, assemble peacefully, carry weapons, and pursue his own interests as he sees fit, to name only a few. In today's PC world these rights and others are under attack as "not fair", when the reality is that forcing someone to do something against his will is the only true unfairness.
    Dr. Smith has everything bass-ackward, and has obviously drunk the PC Kool-aid of equal outcomes over equal rights.
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    • Posted by zagros 6 years, 11 months ago
      However, if a Mormon (or Muslim) tries to marry more than one wife at the same time, that is prohibited. See Reynolds v. United States, 1878 -- religious duty is not a defense against criminal indictment.

      Incidentally, I am a Muslim and there is nothing in my religion that suggests that other people can't drink alcohol. I just cannot be compelled to do so (nor has anyone suggested that one would).
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      • Posted by Storo 6 years, 11 months ago
        Tell that to the US troops in Saudi Arabia who are prohibited from purchasing alcohol.
        But you miss the point. Because you have a religious belief you can't force it on others; however, you can exercise it by not participating in things that go against your religious beliefs. That's called freedom of choice.
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        • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
          Freedom of choice does not mean exemption from valid laws. There is no religious excuse to "choose" to murder as just one example.

          This has been discussed on this forum many times. We frequently see religionists claiming to exempt from the law for no other reason than there religions says so. That is not a valid argument.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
            The real question is this: if the corporate income tax gets applied to religious institutions, does it run afoul of the First Amendment? I believe that it does because it acts as an infringement which is specifically forbidden in the First Amendment. Murder runs afoul of the Declaration of Independence which states quite clearly that man has a right to life. Thus any religion which wants to practice human sacrifice violates this principle of the Founding of our Nation and is not protected in that expression of that belief in this nation. (It should be noted that all rights come with appropriate use.)

            Taxes, however, can be used to stifle or eliminate certain behaviors. Take President Obama's threat against coal-fired power plants. Through both regulations and taxes, he openly declared that they could continue to operate, they'd just eventually go out of business as a direct result of his policies. This same tack could be taken with regard to any industry or private organization and would be outright tyranny. To support it's application just because it targets a group you despise without consideration for the larger ramifications is the path to enslavement by that very same tyrant. Remember, the income tax amendment was sold as a tax on the rich - the 1% who could afford it. Within a couple of decades it had been expanded to include everyone. Beware the dangers of precedent.

            I consider all actions of corporations and private assemblies to be expressions of personal belief systems - whether they be centered around profit or some other principle. I consider all taxation of group entities to be a violation of the First Amendment.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
        I would also note that the Constitutionality of that law is also highly suspect, as Congress was never granted power to control marriage under the Constitution. Only by wresting the General Welfare Clause could they assert such a claim. The People were free to set their own rules for marriage for nearly 100 years prior to that. It was societal practice to practice monogamy, but far from law. I would also note that only after Congress asserted the power to control marriage did marriage licenses, resulting in the first kerfuffle over interracial marriages but now extending to homosexual marriages. If what constituted marriage had been properly left to the private sphere to maintain, it would have avoided all of those issues.
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        • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
          The court did not assert a right to control marriage. It invoked the 14th amendment protection of equal treatment under the law, including state law. But no level of government, including states, should be intervening in marriage. One reason they have is its importance to the application of other laws, particularly income taxes. They pile controls on controls.
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          • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
            Marriage is about property rights. If you read the text on a stock certificate, depending on the state in which the corporation is licensed, you will see that the language for shared ownership comes directly from real estate. They say "jointly or severally" or "tenants in common" or "joint tenants with rights of survivorship" and so on. Again, I stress, that is for ownership of common stock in a corporation. And, of course, for land, which is the foundation of ownership concepts in our society.

            Marriage defines inheritance.

            And it determines who can speak for whom with power of attorney implicit in the laws, not otherwise specified.

            In order to define objective property rights, the government has a compelling interest in marriage.

            Anticipating your objections, I agree that there are other ways to achieve all of those by specific contracts. But that is not how things are now. Of course as "radicals for capitalism" Objectivists advocate a complete restructuring of society. But all of that is probably best addressed in a separate discussion or two.
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
              That married people can and usually do own property jointly does not mean "marriage is about property rights". It is personal, with no justification whatsoever for government intervention. Deeds and wills specify ownership, it does not require a "complete restructuring society".
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            • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
              The only reason government claims a "compelling interest" is so they can collect taxes on the inheritance - which in my opinion is immoral. Get rid of personal/corporate income taxes and the point becomes moot.
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              • Posted by j_IR1776wg 6 years, 10 months ago
                The only reason government taxes inheritance is obedience to Marx. See number three from his Manifesto...

                1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

                2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

                3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

                4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

                5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

                6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

                7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

                8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

                9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

                10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

                Doesn't America look like this today?
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 11 months ago
      Tara Smith does not have it backwards. You do. Religion is not the basis of this country and is not an excuse for exemption. When religionists can not or do not argue why a law should be invalid and instead appeal to their religion they have no argument.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
      The government has the right to force you to be a witness in court. They can force you be a defendant in court, of course. We allow some exceptions for convenience, but jury duty is another legal compulsion. Speed limits on the roads are another easy example.

      A doctor in Detroit was arrested for performing genital mutilations on children which the parents of the children wanted. But the state intervened to protect the children from their (religious) parents.

      The general argument remains in every case: does your claim to "conscience" relieve you of an obligation to obey the law?

      (Prof. Tara Smith has not "drunk the PC Kool-aid of equal outcomes over equal rights." The questions she raises are specifically about equal rights, with some people claiming that their religion gives them more rights than other people.)

      If you read the article, you will see that she explains the two halves of the First Amendment clauses on religion. You are considering only one of them.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 6 years, 11 months ago
    My opinion only.

    Government is over reaching and incapable.
    Churches are on every street corner (in my case 4 in less than a mile) and strategically suited to help the indigent.

    Tax exemptions for Churches, again my opinion, should be maintained PROVIDED the church is using that exemption to help its local community. There should be no homeless problem in America. There should be no food stamps.

    I know this from asking two churches (one catholic and another Presbyterian) why they didn't do more. Both said LIABILITY. Imagine that.

    Government regulation stopped a local church from using a property they own from setting up 20 beds last summer. When its 100+ degrees for 100+ days who cares if your sleeping on a sleeping bag in air conditioning and getting a meal.

    Seriously, Government need remove itself from a great many social issues and let people and the myriad of churches step up locally for their exemption, rather then ship their money and give their time overseas.

    My 2 bits.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 6 years, 11 months ago
    It the Dim's and the fringe groups (gays) that is pushing that anti-religious agenda. They set up the provocation with Christian businesses to line their pockets with ill gotten gains. A lot of those business targeted had to go out of business because of the legal expenses.
    The congress should address the excesses of litigation by these groups but they won't because they believe that they have to cater to them for votes. They are only 1% or less of the voting electorate.
    Personally, I detest such life styles.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 11 months ago
    What about a people not being allowed to bring a dog somewhere, unless it's a service animal, e.g. seeing eye dog? A religious person might feel like carrying a knife is necessary because of his experiences from an early age.

    This is a weak argument that likens a religious upbringing to a physical disability, but I can't think of any other arguments.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 6 years, 11 months ago
      My wife has a service dog (no, not a BS therapy thing). If someone doesn't want us to bring it to their house, we don't, or we don't go. If a store doesn't want us to bring it in, fine with me. Up to them. Just like it is up to them to make LGBT cakes if they want or not. Freedom.
      No one has denied us yet.
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    • Posted by jimjamesjames 6 years, 11 months ago
      There's noting wrong with carrying a knife or gun or chainsaw. The societal assumption is that the carrier will use the tool for a nefarious purpose. That the impetus for carrying one or the other or all three might be religious in nature is also irrelevant. The issue is are the tools used to affect someone else's quality of life? In other words, what does the carrier DO?
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
        If you read the article, you will see that the case in question involved a child in school. Children are not allowed to bring weapons to school for the same reason that they are not allowed to get married, vote, sign contracts, or buy alcohol beverages: they are not mature enough (rational enough) to make the right choices - or any choice, really, if you understand what "choice" is.

        I could agree if you wish to make the case that in the good ole days kids did bring weapons to school, and moreover, that anyone who works for a living should be able to sign a contract, get married, etc. But those are not the topic of Prof. Smith's article.

        The question is whether any claim of "conscience" exempts you from the law.
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        • Posted by jimjamesjames 6 years, 11 months ago
          In the fifth grade, we boys would play mumbley peg with our pocket knives and have knife throwing contests, sticking them into the wooden fence surrounding.

          "The question is whether any claim of "conscience" exempts you from the law."

          Your "conscience" is not an excuse to hurt anyone.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
          And that precise argument (of ignorance) can also be used to show that kids have no malicious intent. Let's be real here: the rules schools create have nothing to do with the safety of the students at all: they are merely rules created by control freaks. Boys were bringing knives and rifles to classes for more than 100 years without incident. Why is it that all of a sudden this is "intolerable" and "unsafe"? Good grief, if they want to be concerned with the safety of the students, why do they let any of them drive to school!?!
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          • Posted by ewv 6 years, 10 months ago
            Please read the article for the discussion of knives in school. School rules may or may not be "merely rules created by control freaks" and knives and guns have in fact been used as weapons in "incidents". But you don't have to read the article to know that much.

            Most students are not allowed to drive anywhere, including to school. There is an age limit. Concern with safety does not mean controlling everything in the hopeless attempt to prevent anything bad from ever happening.
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      • Posted by stargeezer 6 years, 11 months ago
        Half or more of our church carries concealed every service. We even added a bylaw to our church constitution allowing it before there was a law allowing it in our state. We even have a range on the backside of our property that's open for members and after services.

        Oh, service animals are welcome too.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
      The best way to discuss this is after we read the entire article through at least once. Otherwise, we are just discussing our own ideas, which might be fine and all, but I think that Prof. Smith's article is more informed, certainly as a starting place.
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