Pres. Trump Frees Churches to Go Political

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 6 years, 11 months ago to Politics
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"Leaders of the U.S. religious left, a rising force of opposition to Trump's hard-line stance on immigration and healthcare, said they were poised to benefit from the move, which lifts the risk of religious groups losing their tax-exempt status if they advocate for particular candidates.

"This is going to backfire on Trump," said the Rev. Jennifer Butler, chief executive of progressive policy group Faith in Public Life. "We are morally outraged at what is going on and we are appalled at the weaponisation of religion."

The group is planning to back congressional candidates who would oppose Trump in the 2018 midterm elections, and will now have more liberty to do so without jeopardizing the tax-exempt status of the churches its members represent.

"We're going to be mobilizing millions of voters to turn out at the polls and vote their values," Butler said." --
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa...

As I read the order it does nothing.
"... the Secretary of the Treasury shall ensure, to the extent permitted by law, that the Department of the Treasury does not take any adverse action against any individual, house of worship, or other religious organization on the basis that such individual or organization speaks or has spoken about moral or political issues from a religious perspective, where speech of similar character has, consistent with law, not ordinarily been treated as participation or intervention in a political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) a candidate for public office by the Department of the Treasury."

... where speech of similar character has ... not ordinarily been treated as participation or intervention in a political campaign ... "

Well, OK, what if such speech has been ordinarily treated as political intervention?

And what is a "religion" as the US DoD has recognized secular humanism as a religion?

Read the White House release.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...


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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 11 months ago
    It is easy to see that the entire concept of tax-free institutions should be re-appraised. It is a mish-mash more tangled than a girl with braided hair after a day of swimming.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
      Agreed. The simple solution is to repeal all corporate taxes. Then there is no such thing as the IRS targeting for political speech. No "not-for-profits" to worry about. And since corporate taxes are overwhelmingly passed through to consumers anyway, it's really a double tax on the consumer.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 11 months ago
      I see voluntary charity as a good thing that should be given tax exemption. But if we're going to have tax-exempt churches because going to churches is a first amendment right, then I'd extend that to the rest of the first amendment by making news media, political campaign groups, and maybe entertainment media all tax-exempt too. And I'd do away with the present forced public disclosures of donors' names by both political and tax-exempt groups, which enable retaliation by other parts of the bureaucracy.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 11 months ago
        We are no longer (if we ever were) a true republic. We have traveled too far down the road to some form of socialist state to ever go to being a self relying free Capitalist state. The best we can do is keep from crossing the line from right to left.I realize that it is frustrating when you know the solution but can never apply it due to to the ignorance of your fellow citizens.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
        I disagree. I think that public disclosure of donors is an important part of the process.

        You know the saying "Stand up and be counted." In colonial America, that was how we voted. The secret ballot is the Australian ballot because criminals do not trust each others. Free people do not fear their neighbors. Yes, it was not perfect. Yes, social retaliation happens. Life is imperfect. But you should have the courage of your convictions, rather than slipping envelopes of cash under the table in a restaurant.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 6 years, 11 months ago
          "Social retaliation", especially by your boss or landlord or anyone who cares to call them up and smear you, is the root of most unfreedom. You can see in Iran, and in China during the reign of Mao, what happens if those people have the power to destroy your success in life. That is not permissible.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
    The real solution is to repeal corporate income taxes entirely. Then there are no designations of "tax-exempt" status, etc. No targeting or audits by the IRS to chill freedom of speech. Everyone is free to speak their mind and choose whom they will listen to.

    When this nation was founded, there were no corporate income taxes and churches were heavily engaged in politics, with preachers endorsing political candidates. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this - it is (or should be) protected speech. If Mark Cuban can endorse, why not Billy Graham?
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 6 years, 11 months ago
    This more a reaction to the abuse of IRS as a bludgeon to punish those in opposition than a purposeful action. If Obama hadn't sicced the IRS on churches for opposing the transgender bathroom order, this probably wouldn't even have come up.

    Interesting that no one seemed to care about whether or not President Obama could withhold federal monies from a state for non-compliance with the transgender bathroom order, yet have declared that President Trump can't withhold federal monies from states for noncompliance with immigration laws.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 11 months ago
    I read that preachers were the community leaders who helped to stir up the American Revolution. Same thing happened during the Civil War.
    Evangelicals were openly political when they very publicly backed Trump before the election.
    Southern Baptists are why there are dry counties in Alabama~
    http://abcboard.alabama.gov/(S(g35kyu...
    Just sayin'~
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
      Well, yes, before the days of not-for-profit non-taxable organizations, that was true. It may well be true today, but, the law says that you cannot be an untaxed NFP and participate in politics.

      For instance, some states do not tax gold, silver, and numismatic items. Coin clubs have an opinion on that. However, any NFP, such as the American Numismatic Association or the Michigan State Numismatic Society, would lose their status if they participated in the debates.

      So, I agree with your point: it was (and is) history. But the social landscape changed with the creation of NFPs as a tax-exempt businesses.

      Moreover, the deeper question is why churches do not pay taxes, considering that other businesses do.
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  • Posted by ajsenti 6 years, 11 months ago
    One can't expect DoT or any other gov authority to apply subjective criteria constraining speech, whether exercised in the context of a religious setting or otherwise. We either abide in the principle of the individual right of speech as immutable or not.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
      Well, no. It is a bit more complicated than that. Historical reasons drive a lot of the considerations. Developing an objective (real and rational) theory of taxation is an inherently contradictory task. What standards apply to which contexts?

      But, to tackle some of those difficulties... Churches are not taxed on their income; they do not pay property taxes. While clergy do offer "moral guidance" at election time, they are not supposed to stump for specific candidates or specific ballot issues. Generally, the compromise has been honored, though churches get away with occasional exceptions, though civic authorities do not just occasionally tax a church once in a while.

      See Forbes here, "Why Churches are the Gold Standard in Tax Excempt Organizations":
      https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwo...

      "The power to tax is the power to destroy." (Webster for the defense in McCulloch v. Maryland, 1819.) So, we do not tax churches. The state bows to the power of the pulpit.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 6 years, 11 months ago
    Campaigning for the next election already? Didn't take long to become a swamp denizen.

    Eliminate all tax free institutions. They are part of the swamp.
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  • Posted by ReneeDaphne 6 years, 11 months ago
    This will only make things worse! In order for liberty to rise again, the non-taxable business structure must die. Once you know the history of the "non-taxable foundation", you will never think of it as anything but a tool for enslavement.

    1. They were designed to help large enslavement organizations (Rockefeller, Rothschild, Carnegie, Morgan...you know the players) squirrel away untold amounts of un-taxed dollars to co-opt the educational system of the US by buying up chairs at all the major universities.

    2. Before 1913, any organization that was directly helping the poor, providing hospitals for indigents, taking care of orphans etc were either taxed at a much reduced rate or not at all. Then when we created "holy" businesses who somehow have a video store that is "more socially responsible" because ???? so they get a non-taxable status (American Red Cross, American Cancer Society, Mercy Corp who props up the "homeless industry" here in Portland).

    3. Non-taxables also get a LOT MORE benefits than we do. They can use a lot of the city and state's locations, equipment and services of the bureaucracy whereas I can't (eg. I can't get on the Central Library Calendar even though I've booked the room for an event because I'm NOT a non-taxable.

    4. The smart non-taxables (those on the OTHER side of politics - not ours), work together, fund each other, promote each other's events and use each other's people and connections. They have entire networks of inter-support amongst themselves and even share grant writers and templates...lots of stuff to disadvantage REAL businesses.

    5. It allows state sanctioned businesses (non-taxables), some even OPERATED by the CITY, to be in direct competition with productive sector businesses - (bicycle shop ON the river in competition to a real business across the street - the libraries are now filled with popular, short term interest material they turn and flip every few months - in direct competition to every video, music and book store in town...oh, and see if you can find a copy of the Constitution in your branch library by the way,

    6. The most important thing....more and more people are forming non-taxables and they don't mind taxing the "taxable businesses" to make up for it. Just think for a minute, if ALL businesses had to pay taxes, NOBODY would be eager for anyone to pay taxes and we'd be asking a lot more questions about what they do with our money...no more expensive "edible forests for children to walk through....once a year".

    If you'd like some evidence...I'll send you a READABLE copy of the Reese Report from 1963. I found it in a very famous gentleman's library when I was helping to catalogue some of it.

    Renee@Flourish.us
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    • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
      Actually, the whole taxation of businesses needs to die. Then it doesn't matter what the purpose of the organization is - they can contribute to the political discussion.

      1. That's because after income taxes were established, companies did the natural thing: they tried to limit their tax burden according to the built-in loopholes in the tax code. It's less about the type of organization but about the fact that there was taxation at all. Prior to the 1913 tax amendment, any taxation on businesses was local - not Federal.

      2. Prior to 1913, any taxation was at a State level - not a Federal level. Make sure to make that distinction because what we are talking about here are Federal rules.

      3. This is a local issue - not a Federal Tax issue. They are separate and distinct problems.

      4. That's because they are laundering and sheltering each others' incomes to avoid the taxes. This all becomes irrelevant if you eliminate corporate taxes.

      5. Again, this is a local - not a Federal issue. I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that there are two approaches and they affect two completely separate bodies of tax code.

      6. Again, this becomes a non-issue on elimination of corporate taxes. See #1 above: this is a natural result of trying to limit exposure to taxes and maximize income.

      The report would be interesting. I'd love a copy.
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      • Posted by ReneeDaphne 6 years, 11 months ago
        I absolutely agree with you. However, we need to get to the end goal through a plan of action.

        Abandoning the non-taxable model is a first step. There are ever increasing numbers of non-taxables getting registered each year. Per the Secretaries of State around the USA, this is now a near "holy" business structure with oh, so many sanctions and special benefits.

        Only when people understand how much the non-taxable is a gravy train for the enslavers, their organizations and their agendas, will they be willing to find another path to what they want.

        A first personal step we took was to stop using tax funded services. Don't go to "Concerts in the Park" or the latest city sponsored "fun event or festival". Don't go to the zoo, the art museum, the ballet, the symphony or a million events each year.

        I tolerate the library as I have a near perpetual chair in the Sterling Writers Room but if you saw the "homeless refuge" the main library has become, you may not agree even with that exemption.

        We encourage all new startup enterprises to embrace the corporate rather than non-taxable model during formation of their businesses.

        We actually want to GET to your goal above but we also want to start seeing ideas for ways and means to get there.

        This is also how you solve it more locally. Focus on the sphere of influence we can realistically engage in and stop using our time on learning more about the problem.

        Another tactic is to support products and services produced by taxable business entities. If it's a nature video, we get it from Barnes & Noble, not the Audubon Book Store.

        There are extremely few liberty organizations who are NOT non-taxables. LewRockwell.com is the only one I know of.

        We try and put our money, not where our mouth is, but where our values are and that's for profit businesses...always.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 11 months ago
          Spread the non-taxation to all and bankrupt the overspending looter federal state. Return to everyone the ability to choose where the fruit of his labor goes.
          A five percent consumption tax to replace all other federal taxes is adequate for constitutionally authorized federal government activity. Strictly limit federal government borrowing to eliminate any possibility of federal debt accumulation.
          We MUST stop financially supporting activities that we do not support philosophically.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 11 months ago
          "Abandoning the non-taxable model is a first step."

          Politically, you'll get zero sponsorship on that kind of bill. You won't get any of the progressives to vote for it because that includes all of their political action groups. You won't get any conservatives because they all go to church. I don't even think in a referendum you'd get 10% to vote for it. It's an interesting idea, but a non-starter.

          What I've noticed is that there are no baby-steps in politics. It's all or nothing. So let's just focus on educating people about how corporate taxes are a double tax and concentrate on eliminating the taxes in one shot. It's unlikely to get much support from Democrats, but at least our current President could get behind it.
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  • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
    Although I maintain that the actual order does nothing, the apparent acceptance of its "vernacular" meaning opens a lot of doors. Anyone can organize a church. And this could even resurrect the Church of Scientology.
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    • Posted by DeanStriker 6 years, 11 months ago
      I HAVE such a church, a sub of the Universal Life Church, in which I became an ordained minister and use it to save a ton on taxes. Could marry somebody and more such, but never did.
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      • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
        I am also a minister in the Universal Life Church. I participated in a "new age" convention many years back and to deflect the laws against "fortune tellers" we were required to be clergy and the ULC was the best route.
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        • Posted by DeanStriker 6 years, 11 months ago
          My church was founded thru the "Church of Universal Harmony" sometime back in the 70's. So far as I know that entity and it's 2 founders have disappeared from the shadows. LOL
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 11 months ago
    I hope it doesn't encourage my church to talk more about politics. I certainly hope it doesn't, contrary to reason, somehow cause us (my church) to be more political than we would be if there were no mandatory taxes and therefore no need to worry about maintaining tax-free status.
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    • Posted by $ 6 years, 11 months ago
      They can have all the free speech they want. They should just pay taxes like any other business or individual (until we replace taxation with a different system). The problem is determining the tax rate. What kind of a business is a church? Which schedule applies to it?
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 11 months ago
        It would be the same as a non-profit like a professional society. They would pay property taxes, and contributions wouldn't be tax deductible. But the entity would not earn a profit.
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