Was the hero, John Galt, really a selfish character?

Posted by Solver 9 years, 9 months ago to Education
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The first three separate Google dictionary definitions of the adjective “selfish" are”
“lacking consideration for others”
“having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people”
“devoted to or caring only for oneself”

According to these definitions:
You can not be selfish if you have consideration for anyone else.
You can not be selfish if you have concern for anyone else.
You can not be selfish if you care for anyone else.


So if John Galt was selfish, he must have lacked confederation for Dagny, had no concern for Dagny and did not care for Dagny.
There is a contradiction here. Either John Galt was NOT SELFISH or the common definitions for “selfish" that most of the world uses are WRONG.

Can most of the world be wrong? Is that a rhetorical question?


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  • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
    "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

    Can a person that takes this kind of "selfish" oath have any consideration, concern, or care for any other person? The answer is an obvious, yes.
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  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 9 months ago
    Yes that is a rhetorical question.

    "The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and upholds rational selfishness—which means: the values required for man’s survival qua man—which means: the values required for human survival—not the values produced by the desires, the emotions, the “aspirations,” the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial practice of human sacrifices, have never discovered an industrial society and can conceive of no self-interest but that of grabbing the loot of the moment."

    See the rest of Rand's explanation here:http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html
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    • Posted by livefreely 9 years, 9 months ago
      He sacrificed himself.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
        Livefreely, if you read the book _Atlas Shrugged_ you will find Galt's explanation for his choice to return to the outer world. If you read Rand's non-fiction anthology, _The Virtue of Selfishness_ the essays, "Isn't Everyone Selfish" and "Counterfeit Individualism" explain more.
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      • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 9 months ago
        Who sacrificed himself?
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        • Posted by livefreely 9 years, 9 months ago
          Galt. He never had to return.
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          • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 9 months ago
            What do you mean he never had to return and he sacrificed himself. Explain.
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            • Posted by livefreely 9 years, 9 months ago
              John Galt could have stayed in the Gulch. He could have let the world go to hell all by itself. There would have been fewer people who survived and that would have given everyone in the Gulch access to more materials. Dagny made her choice. If Dagny were smarter in the first place she would have stayed in the gulch. Actually neither of them should have returned, It was unproductive..
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              • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 9 months ago
                I disagree. He was investing in his future by not staying in the Gulch. In the words of Ragnar talking to Rearden:
                Rearden smiled contemptuously. "Aren't you one of those damn altruists who spends his time on a non-profit venture and risks his life merely to serve others?"
                Ragnar: "No, Mr. Rearden. I am investing my time in my own future. When we are free and have to start rebuilding from out of the ruins, I want to see the world reborn as fast as possible. If there is, then, some working capital in the right hands -- in the hands of our best, our most productive men -- it will save years for the rest of us and, incidentally, centuries for the history of the county. Did you ask what you meant to me? Everything I admire, everything I want to be on the day when the earth will have a place for such state of being, everything I want to deal with -- even if this is the only way I can deal with you and be of use to you at present."
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                • Posted by livefreely 9 years, 9 months ago
                  Beautiful scene which does support Ragnar's activities but not Galt or Dagny. Galt didn't save many or anything. It was all laid to waste. His speech could actually have been the cause of it all falling apart, so suddenly, especially his order to get the hell out of his way. What did Dagny gain? Her brother went mad. Reardon was already heading out and her railroad was on it's last trip. Galt went back to be handed in. You do raise a valid point though.
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                  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
                    well an apocalypse is messy. lol
                    Think of it this way. It was his philosophy that brought about the Gulch in the first place. In order to "right the world" it had to be destroyed first. That was the most important part of his plan. Imagine convincing the best and the brightest to turn their back on the world as it is. Imagine understanding a life philosophy in a few hours. He delivered everyone but Dagny ...and then finally Dagny. "It" had already fallen apart. The speech explained why.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        Galt never sacrificed himself. livefreely, have you read AS or have you just so far seen the movies? If not, you may consider starting with the play Anthem. It deals with this very concept.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    Solver, dictionaries are not authorities. In common speech, we confuse current and voltage, weight and mass, speed and velocity. The root and rock of the political philosophy here in the Gulch began by denying the validity of dictionary definitions of "capitalism" - and the Encyclopedia Britannica article.

    I learned that as a teenager from the works of Ayn Rand. Thirty years later, I was granted a literary award on the nomination of a Smithsonian curator because I doubted the _EB_ story for the origins of coinage. (Coins were not invented by merchants, no matter what "everyone" says.) You asked rhetorically whether everyone in the world can be wrong. "Yes!"

    Please understand that the purpose of a dictionary is to report what most people mean by a word. Words change meaning. It is why we can read Shakespeare, but need the notes. We argue about the Constitution because the meanings of some words changed in 200 years. I have an 1828 Webster's Dictionary just to help me with those kinds of problems. My two standard dictionaries - Mirriam Webster and World Publishing - are from c. 1960. But my wife is an editor and she always has the latest on her shelf and we do go around a bit sometimes on experts versus experts.

    I also speak several languages, as does my brother; and he beats me up over my Langenscheidts; but I took a red pen to my Oxford Paperback. So...
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  • Posted by shivas 9 years, 9 months ago
    The word selfish has such negative connotation in the current use of the language that it may no longer be appropriate. Rational selfishness is confusing to the uninitiated. We'd be better off calling it personal responsibility or even rational self interest.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
      Rational self-interest is the more correct term.

      Even in Rand's time, selfishness had the same connotation. In this respect, she made a fundamental mistake in terminology.
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      • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 9 months ago
        Are you sure she's the one that made a fundamental mistake?

        From the Introduction to The Virtue Of Selfishness: "The title of this book may evoke the kind of question that I hear once in a while: "Why do you use the word 'selfishness' to denote virtuous qualities of character, when that word antagonizes so many people to whom it does not mean the things you mean?"

        "To those who ask it, my answer is: "For the reason that makes you afraid of it."

        She writes further: "It is not a mere semantic issue nor a matter of arbitrary choice. The meaning ascribed in popular usage to the word "selfishness" is not merely wrong: it represents a devastating intellectual "package-deal," which is responsible, more than any other single factor, for the arrested moral development of mankind."

        She made no apologies for her terminology and explained her rationale.

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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
      Shivas, the word "selfishness" was _never_ "appropriate"; and neither was "capitalism." You can back away from the harsh meanings of rational and realistic. Sociopaths are said to be "rational" and "realistic" and "selfish." Even your suggested soubriquet or euphemism, "rational self interest" has two red flags: rational and self. We even deny the propriety of "interest" as in "conflict of interest"; or taking the moral high ground by asserting that you have no interest in the outcome.

      If you want to make yourself acceptable to most people in most places, you are going to cease being whoever it is you are inside.
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  • Posted by Danno 9 years, 9 months ago
    Every action is selfish else it wouldn't be done. Such action can be a "twisted" selfish action like self-harm or communism.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      Danno,

      That is not what Rand meant by selfishness. Rational Selfishness are acts that rationally further your life. Going to church does not rationally further your life, voting for Obama does not rationally further your life, but people do these things consciously.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
        Many people would say that the structure of a religion (going to church) provides them the support to avoid destructive behaviors. Regardless of whether it has anything to do with a deity or not, that activity does act in the furtherance of one's life.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
          It is infinitely debatable whether religious activities rationally further your life. Most of us don't have the time for this debate.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
            It is not debatable at all. Belief in the irrational does not further anyone's life. A belief in the inherent evil of man is not good for anyone.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
              “Belief in the irrational does not further anyone's life.”

              Overall, I agree. Yet, other replies from my post above would challenge that statement. Without all parties accepting the formal rules of debate, arguments can go on seemingly forever. People can easily waste lifetimes fruitlessly debating whether or not something like faith in the supernatural is a valid tool for winning a debate.
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          • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
            (Minus 1). That is not a reply. It is a dodge, a blank-out. Do you mean to say that you are religious and refuse to discuss it further? Do you mean something else? Anything is "infinitely debatable" if you refuse to accept facts and logic. That is why formal debates have rules with judges.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
            I disagree. I could point you to uncountable numbers of people in programs such as AA that would argue that a religious structure had indeed furthered their life. Stop being infantile in this regard. It is indisputable. What is up for debate is whether it is due to a deity or not. But whether religion itself (irrespective of whether a deity exists or not) helps the furtherance of one's life is indisputable in many cases.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
      Danno, your claim, "Every action is selfish else it wouldn't be done" is identified as "psychological selfishness". By that simple (simple-minded) theory all actions are directed toward a goal. As you note, that goal can be twisted against the actor. The egoism of Objectivist ethics solves that problem. If you have not read _The Virtue of Selfishness_ you should make the time in order to discuss the ideas.

      Moreover, when you say that you are "talking about the human animal, not Rand Philosophy" you are asserting your _own_ philosophical estimate of the "human animal" as if that were unarguable.
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      • Posted by Danno 9 years, 9 months ago
        Yes, the human animal has intellectualized lower drives. This has enabled society but at the same time opens up the possibility for twisted drives because logic is not followed and/or one or more axioms are false. The biggest problem affecting the human animal now is the false axiom of economics that inflation is good. In fact, inflation is the underlying force for the obscene income difference between wealth creators and paper pushing financial wizards and other "talent" jobs like sports and wall street lawyers and accountants. And I agree with Rand, obviously, that properly directed selfishness is the path to happiness for the person and is what leads to proper functioning society.
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