Trump Roe vs Wade

Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 5 months ago to Politics
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Does this guy really support overturning this decision? Do we really have to decide between fiscal responsibility + second amendment vs women's rights?


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  • Posted by dbhalling 7 years, 5 months ago
    Who cares. If this is what you think is important in the US today then you priorities are out of whack.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 5 months ago
      Yes, this definitely not a single issue election.
      Have to admit this is me dino a pro-lifer easy-peasy, since the evil hag is even for late term as hell partial birth abortions,
      Even if Roe vs Wade was not even in the equation, I'm voting for The Donald over Shillary for a whole host of other issues.
      One issue would be saving We The People from hopefully not too many of themselves.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 5 months ago
    Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the most liberal member of the SCOTUS, has said the Roe vs Wade decision was based on an unjustified expansion of constitutional rights. Trump feels the decision regarding abortion should revert to the states. He does not support making abortion a criminal offense.
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    • Posted by jabuttrick 7 years, 5 months ago
      Didn't he say there "has to be punishment" for the doctor if not the woman? Doesn't that mean criminalization?
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 5 months ago
        He followed that statement with "but that should be left up to the states." He's never been terribly polished about crossing the thought about policy with his personal opinion.
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        • Posted by jabuttrick 7 years, 5 months ago
          The federalism dodge is frequently used by slippery folks. The fact is he lives in a state, New York. He seemed to be stating that the woman and doctor should be charged with a crime if an abortion takes place in New York. Right?
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          • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 5 months ago
            No. What he said was that the representatives in the state government should decide. Given that NY is about the most liberal state, I doubt that abortion would be outlawed there.
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  • Posted by andrewph 7 years, 5 months ago
    Ok, as an adopted child from the era where abortion was in the states purview, where do my right to live start? The law used to be only in the medical necessary need of the woman would one be provided. That was the law in Texas at the time. Why should I lose my chance at a good or bad life because my parents were reckless?
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    • Posted by strugatsky 7 years, 5 months ago
      I doubt that your argument is philosophically sustainable. You are arguing, or equating, the rights of a real person vs a potential person, with an undefined depth of potential. Should be go back to the Bible for the definition of that potential, as is striking dead for the offense of spilling the "potential"? "Potential" is wasted and thrown away every day and not only in terms of human procreation; whom should I hold responsible for not allowing my potential to blossom?
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
        First, the bible is no place to begin or leverage for a logical argument, unless the argument is about the bible.

        How many potential persons have been killed by condoms, bad music, bad breath or bad pick up lines?
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  • Posted by gpecaut 7 years, 5 months ago
    First, I keep seeing so many say "what about women's rights", well what about the baby's rights?
    Second, Row vs Wade should never have happened. It is no where in the Constitution, so yes, it would revert back to the States. It would allow a State like Texas to pass and use he law they passed last year, that abortion clinics must use the same sterile procedures as a hospital or even a dentist clinic uses. Isn't that important for "women's rights?"
    Other States wanted the parents of minors notified if their child was seeking g an abortion, that was struck down using RvW.
    RvW is a prime example of legislating from the bench, a totally un Constitutional practice that too many support. At least when the decisions go their way.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 7 years, 5 months ago
      Can you read the 9th and 10th amendment? There are rights that are enumerated in the Constitution. Of Course that does not mean you have a right to an abortion, but your line of reasoning shows you do not understand the constitution.
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      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 5 months ago
        If we have a right to privacy, why does the state get to tell us what drugs we can take, that we have seat belt and helmet laws etc. If we truly have a right to control over our body, why are so many laws passed to control us?

        I actually would like a right to privacy, but apparently it only applies to abortion.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
          The following may make some here angry but here goes my somewhat quiet rant.

          In society you must exercise a right by choosing and acting freely. Not all actions will be free depending on the society even though you should have liberty to do the action. You cannot require others to provide you with anything, including privacy. You can work to have privacy laws passed but most people will view privacy differently than you do.
          As to abortion, the government, in a way, reverted to language of the past where a baby or child is a fetus which has been born. Fetuses have only the rights of a parasite which feeds off another. There, it is the one who is being fed off of who has the right to keep or reject the parasite. It might be too harsh to say it that way, but the only right, as a parasite, that such a fetus or other parasite has is to accept what is given to it or go elsewhere, though that is questionable in the case of a fetus since it has no ability to think or accept anything.

          I am tired of the political nonsense of "pro life" and "pro choice" the first just indicates that only human life is good and the second that one is moral. I would like it if every pregnancy was a chosen one with parents who would love the child and that every pregnancy would end in a healthy child but that is a kind of crap shoot with a large percentage of fetuses being malformed and most likely unable to live any kind of a normal life (as do some downs syndrome children and others with much help) which are miscarried and unnoticed by the mother. I have enough empathy to understand the horrors that mothers can have about abortion and even the possible horror of forcing very sickly and in constant pain or needing-large-numbers-of- surgeries babies to live painful lives let alone those who will live painful lives due to extremely bad parents.
          No one has a right to force any choice on anyone else. Those choices do not include what would be actual criminal choices. I do not consider that abortion is criminal since there is no person yet to exorcise a right other than the mother only. Thus the state and society should stay out of it.
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          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 5 months ago
            "there is no person yet to exorcise a right other than the mother only." -- well, that's the core of the argument, isn't it?

            Is that objective reality, does a person not exist until he or she exits the birth canal or is born via caesarian? Or is it when they COULD live independently. The current Roe v Wade basis is essentially viability. Of course even when they wrote it, it was considered a moving platform. The day will come when we can raise a baby from conception without using a human mother. What then of the viability argument?
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
              I logically contend simply that life begin with consciousness or self-awareness. Anything before that is less than an animal which we kill for food, sport or to make way for ourselves without any claim of murder or crime.

              Viability, possibility, etc need to be examined against murder by condom, bad music, bad hair and bad pickup lines.
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              • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 5 months ago
                Well the argument about self-awareness beyond that of animal life may give you a date several years after birth. Are you ok with killing 1 year olds because they really aren't self aware? I mean my boxer puppy is whining outside my office at this moment because she wants to go for her walk. That's pretty self aware.
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      • Posted by gpecaut 7 years, 5 months ago
        And does not the infant have a right to life?
        The power to either grant life to the unborn baby or of the mother, is not a Federal issue, and thus by the Constitution, it refers back to the State.
        I am very certain that in many States, if RvW were overturned, not much would change. Yet it would no longer give SCOUS the power to force it's will upon the States.
        This is exactly what happened Texas last year. The bill they passed did not restrict abortion. It required the clinics to use standard sterile procedures, have admitting pre set up with a hospital, Incase of an emergency, and SCOTUS claimed that restricted the right of women. This is exactly what is required of any dentist's office or Lasix clinic.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          An infant is born. Inside it is a fetus. A fetus is a physical parasite, not a person.
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          • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
            Until fairly recently it was a fetus until born and then becomes a baby or child or infant. It may have been changed by those who would like to ruin the language or the society. It is just lucky in the natural sense, that any zygote gets to be a fetus due to the randomness of the processes that go on inside an ovum when fertilized by a lucky sperm. So much can go wrong. Those are to be considered lives to be protected and maybe even have memorials for, since they were alive?
            I see a lot of protest about abortion related to the pain that the fetus might feel.I would suspect that those same people would have a male child's foreskin cut off without regard to the pain suffered but would overlook that with visions that he, if I can call it that at that age, will have a better life among his later friends by not looking differently from them.
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          • Posted by gpecaut 7 years, 5 months ago
            I will refute that, as a paramedic I have delivered a premmy weighing 1k 2nd trimester infant, and it survived outside of the mother's womb.
            Also, your argument would mean that when a pregnant woman is shot, and the "baby" dies, it could not be called a murderer.
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            • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
              But the fetus was born during the delivery and was then considered a baby and in those cases were not very viable due to the amount of machinery need to keep them alive.
              So are you saying that a fetus was still a fetus after being born due to its premature weight?
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
              I agree, if a pregnant woman is shot, and the baby dies, it should not be a murder.

              My point about fetus to baby is self awareness. This does not occur in the womb at all, not until much later; however, arguing this after birth is too much.

              If the pregnant woman wants you to deliver a baby early and it lives, great. Up until then, it is all up to the mother.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 7 years, 5 months ago
    trump is a pragmatist thru & thru...no consistent objective philosophy to guide him...and the sad fact is that he read Atlas...he rejects objective philosophy...reminds me of the song...love the one you are with....
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
      Seems like Trump was messed up by an over long adolescence which I hope he is now growing into a more rational adulthood. Still hard to trust him but easier than trusting Hillary.
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
        Well put. Everything is relative, and Hillary is the worst of all evils.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
          I must disagree about "everything is relative" if you mean their existences and identities. Just measurements of relationships ( that was a bit redundant since measurements are relationships and done relative to other things) of things are relative to the context that they exist in. There are no measurements of an existent except relative to other existents. All physical measurements are done with respect to units described by some standard objects or systems. E.g., time is measured with respect to some standard process such as a clock and positions are measured by what can be considered standard rulers which may be solid or even the length of a laser beam by using a standard clock to measure the length. All concepts are defined in terms a some relationship between sub-classes of existents with respect to the larger classes ( the genus of the definition). If one has not at least implicitly done that, one will not have an understanding of the objective objects referenced by the concepts and they will just remain sounds and mental junk.
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
            If I measure the length or mass of something stationary next to me, and then the same thing later moving at a fraction of the speed of light they are both different...just to be a pest ;)

            I think I understand your basic point, and suspect we agree. Trump is relatively more fiscally conservative, and supports more fiscal freedom than Hillary. I actually think, even in light of this posted issue, Trump also supports more social freedom relative to Hillary. I think these are tangible and could be measured (although with high uncertainty), perhaps in an absolute fashion.

            I would point out that relative a measurement is far more accurate than the difference in two absolute measurements, particularly if the datum is far away.

            Neither is perfect, so I support Trump, since he supports more of what I want, relative to me. I want my taxes reduced. I want the 2nd amendment reinforced. I want ObamaCare replaced with something that actually solves a problem.
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            • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
              Your first sentence is just an example that context matters and that measurements are relative, but at low velocities and gravitational fields any differences are unnoticeable for all practical purposes.

              "I would point out that relative a measurement is far more accurate than the difference in two absolute measurements, particularly if the datum is far away." Relative just means with respect too some standard in one's frame of reference. Such are relative and absolute in the frame of reference. Someone in another frame of reference may find that the measurements relative to the first frame will still fit the physical laws of the first frame. The context might give different values to the measurements. Just shows the genius of Einstein and others dealing with whether there is any absolute other than existence in the Universe. Even the existence of a material object's properties are only absolute at the moment they are measure and may change and if changing in a orderly way be used as a clock. Maybe absolutes should be left to past events which can only appear relative due to the amount of historical data available.

              With Trump one hopes that Congress would have the guts to stop some of the executive orders that I fear he might declare. There have been too many of them produced between recent presidents. His main danger is his whatever-I-want version of pragmatic thought. He should, at 70, just finally work becoming an adult.
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              • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
                I was just teasing you with the relativistic note.

                I would like to see Congress or a new president wipe out all past executive orders, and re institute the ones that have value as correct legislation.

                There was never an intention that the president be able to legislate. I guess I don't even know where the executive order power comes from. For sure, daylight savings time has to go!
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                • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
                  I guess I will never outlive being teased. At 76 I thought that what started as a young child would be over. Perhaps it is payback for teasing my younger brothers. Guess I will have to work on that sense of humor some more.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
    Since when is Trump a champion of fiscal responsibility? He's the one calling for socialist expansions like mandatory paid maternity leave. He wants to replace Obamacare with his own version. He isn't calling for reductions in spending. Or taxes.

    And I question his affinity for the Second Amendment as well. He was a vocal proponent of the Brady Bill in the 90's. His "Lifetime" membership in the NRA was only purchased a couple of years ago - and it's cheap - only a few hundred dollars.

    Trump is in this for himself. He's anything but principled. He's going to be a lot like GW Bush if he gets elected IMO - certainly not as bad as Obama, but certainly no Ronald Reagan either. Better than Clinton? ANYONE - even Bernie - is better than Clinton.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
      I hope you have a self to be in it for. I really dislike those who are without any kind of self interest, good or bad. He is much better than his selfless opponent who must live off of others. Trump could even make a very good living even if he lost everything. Although I did not like most of them, I have known several who have made and lost fortunes only to get wealthy again each time. They all had strong selves. I do agree that he is a better person than Hillary.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
        I just get really sick of the argument that a vote for anyone but Trump is a vote for Hillary. I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. I want to vote for someone who actually represents the values I espouse and that is self-interest. I don't know that Trump is a "better person" than Hillary. I don't know how one could stoop much lower than Hillary, but I don't see a great defender of the Constitution in Trump either. I think that with either of them we lose, just in different ways.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 5 months ago
          What does "Trump is in this for himself." say but that he has self interest although not like yours in "I want to vote for someone who actually represents the values I espouse and that is self-interest."
          There is no way that there ever will be someone that would hold values like you do. Everyone's values are concepts formulated from different views of objective reality, so you are on an unending quest. The words for those concepts might be the same point to same reality but may have different measurement ranges for what is subsumed by the concept and defined by the definitions.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
            "There is no way that there ever will be someone that would hold values like you do."

            100%? Probably not. But currently Donald holds less than 50% of my values and Hillary almost zero. I'd like an option where the scales are at least tipped favorably.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
    Does Trump really care about overturning Roe v Wade?

    My opinion? No. Trump is saying this because he knows that if he doesn't get a significant portion of the conservative vote, he's doomed. Will he actually try to do anything about it? Not a chance. Trump's not a conservative. His concern will last just up until the election results are announced.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      I think you are right, but I'm looking for some evidence to support arguments with feminists. (and yes, I do joust at windmills)
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      • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
        Let's be honest. You're not going to have very good luck defending Trump to feminists. There's too much history of Trump's womanizing and foul comments, not to mention his marriages and the reasons they broke apart. The only thing you can argue is that he isn't as foul as Hillary, who actively defended a rapist by painting his 12-yr-old victim as "wanting to get raped" and laughing at her when she got the guy off on a technicality. Point out Hillary's personal persecution of Paula Jones or any of Bill Clinton's other rape victims. If a Feminist wants to support Hillary Clinton, they hang themselves on contradiction of principle. Of course Feminists are a complete contradiction anyways so I think your self-admitted "jousting at windmills" is an appropriate comment.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          Right, she is a family member and I seek to silence this argument she has chosen to voice. I will not change her position, but people watching will realize she is a zealot, not an authority. You never know how this goes, but every once in a while display of a firm grasp of the facts causes someone to come up later and ask you "What does the fourth amendment really mean?" That is when you know you've effected someone.

          Hey where did Sancho go? I need my lance!
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  • Posted by Esceptico 7 years, 5 months ago
    One must always keep the big picture in focus and not get narrowed into single focus issues --- besides, the likelihood is low that this would happen. In the meantime, we need to drain the swamp.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      Oh I agree. This is an irritating trade-off, that I think represents a change of his position.
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      • Posted by Esceptico 7 years, 5 months ago
        Check what Hillary is offering male voters. https://blabber.buzz/politics/conservative/50005-coulter-my-final-argument-for-trump-humiliate-the-media
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          I was thinking something like this should've been Trumps response to her bringing up the recording. Something like:
          "Look Hillary, I'm not proud of what I said, but men are pigs. All men are pigs. How can you be unaware of this? You are married to one of the biggest pigs and you have women promising blow jobs campaigning for you. Either you are incompetent at critical thinking or a complete hypocrite, either one is unsuitable for president."
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  • Posted by gpecaut 7 years, 5 months ago
    My point was simply that the repeal of RvW simply means the matter reverts to the State. If that State considers life begins at conception then that is that State's law. Another State may want to use that it is not a life and can be aborted up until self awareness. Which may mean, until the child can speak and write if they would so choose. However I do not think any State would go that far. And if they did, then perhaps we would see a SCOTUS rule.
    My point is that it appears to me, that none of you even understand RvW. It declared that due to the privacy of the individual, the actions between a patient and doctor are protected by the right of privacy. Thus a woman having an abortion, is between her and the doctor. That would seem to me then, if your doctor and you decide that being a heroin addict is what you want, them that under RvW would be leagal too. The next step.
    No "RIGHT" can impose an action to be imposed of another person. You can not have a right to an abortion, it can only be legal or illegal. You can not have a right to health care. It can only be available or not. You can never have a right to the labor, or property of another. To compel one person to work or produce for another is not a Right. It is theft by law.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      Thank you for the legal note. You are quite right, I was ignorant of the specific precedent of RvW.

      Looks to me like the basic question of the beginning of life has no precedent. Is that correct?
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      • Posted by gpecaut 7 years, 5 months ago
        Not as far as RvW. Mind you, I know many that support abortion, but still see the present use of RvW as unconstitutional. The Federal Government is turning into National Government, and we the people are loosing our Liberty in the process.
        The Conservative and as I interpret it, Objectivist view is to turn away from Statism, and embrace our Constitutional Republic.
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  • Posted by edweaver 7 years, 5 months ago
    I don't understand how this has anything to do with women's rights?
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      So, I want this thing out...

      Don't see it?
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      • Posted by edweaver 7 years, 5 months ago
        I don't see it either.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          Coy is cute, but annoying.
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          • Posted by edweaver 7 years, 5 months ago
            I don't know what you mean.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
              I have a small pile of cells inside me and I want them out. If it was a cancer, there would be no argument. However, Trump is playing to the crowd to set SCOTUS justices that may overturn this precedent.

              In my mind this is similar to the second amendment. Both are individual freedoms. Trump is a fool to let this slide in between.
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              • Posted by edweaver 7 years, 5 months ago
                Individual freedom I could go along with but not women's rights. Women's right's implies that women have a different right than men which is the opposite of a freedom in my book.
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                • Posted by jabuttrick 7 years, 5 months ago
                  edweaver: The right in question is the right to control one's own body. Men don't have fetuses inside their bodies. Therefore, this particular application of the right does not involve men. That is why this is often inaccurately described as a women's rights issue. It's really an individual rights issue.
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                  • Posted by edweaver 7 years, 5 months ago
                    Men do have something to do with it or there would be no fetus. I would argue women have a personal freedom to not have sex if they are unwilling to live with the consequences. One more time I will say, what about personal responsibility?
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                  • Posted by Riftsrunner 7 years, 5 months ago
                    Two points. First, the time to worry about body autonomy was before the sex happened as the primary purpose of the sex act is pregnancy. Abortion has become just another form of birth control albeit an after the fact one. If you want to play, first get on birth control (even if it may have side effects), make the man use a condom, and if something goes wrong get the Plan B the next morning. This limits your chances of becoming pregnant, and is taking personal responsibility and limits the need for abortions.
                    Second, the wording in Roe v. Wade concerning late term abortions has allowed women to twist the letter of the law. It states that a late term abortion is allowed if it could impact the woman's health. Well health has been determined to be just about anything, even depression. So a woman could go to a Psychologist and have them sign off on her claim that her mental health is being impacted by her 'unwanted' pregnancy and schedule a late term abortion.
                    And I am pro-choice because I live by Dennis Miller's saying that when it comes to the subject of abortion it should be 'one penis, no vote'
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
                    And the opposite argument questions if the baby really is part of the woman, or it's own individuality with rights that must be protected. When does life actually begin? Answer that question and all else falls out accordingly.
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                    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
                      That question is very simple, until religion enters the room. The baby is a parasite until it is born viable.
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                      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 5 months ago
                        As an agnostic, I think the viability argument at the core of Roe v Wade has some validity. The baby inside the womb is the same creature as the one outside of it an hour later. Perhaps killing it because it's still inside is acceptable. Of course my son was born a couple of weeks premature so I've held someone in my arms who would have normally been still been inside.
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
                        The reverse can also be said: that the question is very simple until atheism enters the room. It isn't a one-sided argument.
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                        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
                          Atheism is not a religion. It makes no assertions.

                          One's work is all ahead of them to put a logical argument behind religion, and further to draw this conclusion from religion. .
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                          • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
                            To make any kind of logical assertion requires work. To attempt to say that either point of view is a given or of automatic merit is to expose one's bias for one side or the other. Rand laid out a case for atheism - she didn't assume anything. I suggest that the same course be taken and that no assumptions be taken for granted.

                            The other problem is in identifying which religion one is going to take issue with, as there are hundreds - if not thousands. And within the major ones such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam there are sub-cultures with their own interpretations - some even radically different. One can not contend with all of "religion". It is a straw man of epic proportions. One has to identify principles. In this case, the principle is the question of when life begins.
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                            • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
                              Yep.

                              I logically contend simply that life begin with consciousness or self-awareness. Anything before that is less than an animal which we kill for food, sport or to make way for ourselves without any claim of murder or crime.

                              I didn't start this thread to argue this point (which you and I have bantered for pages and pages, my good Blar-friend!). I started it to leverage the wisdom and breadth of this group to help see through the media-noise on Trumps flip-flopping on this subject.
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                              • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
                                Agreed, which is why I haven't gone any further. I just point out that it's an argument that relies on a separate fundamental premise on which there are distinctly opposite points of view.

                                Trump's flip-flopping is eminently evident to anyone who bothers to check his record, which is what I pointed out in separate comments.
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