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Interesting Conversation

Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 5 months ago to Culture
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I had an interesting conversation with a friend last night. I recently made friends with a couple who have been here about a decade from Ukraine. They are really nice people and fun to chat with. Last night he came right out and asked my why Americans are so stupid to be lead down this path toward socialism/communism. I, actually, have never been asked this before. But, in trying to formulate my answer I think I stumbled upon something. We Americans don't really have any memories of what living under such a system is like - because we haven't. We're just stumbling toward it like a moth to a flame. My new friends, on the other hand, are pretty awake to what's going on. Surprisingly so...more so than just about anybody else I know. Their memories are different than ours.


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    Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 5 months ago
    Because when the shelves are full and you are used to there always being goods "magically" available, socialism sounds good. Everyone likes "free" stuff -- just look at a buffet or open bar.

    After a while, of course, the shelves get empty and no one puts things back on them.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 5 months ago
    The same conversation I've had with people who've suffered under Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. Authoritarian regimes, like recurrent allergies, seem to keep reappearing, and the formula is simple: promise a Utopia where no one is ever hungry, sick, or uneducated; gain control of the education system to produce uninformed, gullible students; gain control of the media and convert it into a propaganda machine for the state; characterize the opposition as mentally ill and dangerous.

    Oddly, it isn't the desperately poor who are susceptible to the message, as they're too busy surviving. The most gullible are those who are relatively comfortable, but jealous of those who have more "stuff." They fall victim to the delusion that only the greedy rich at the top will be stripped of their wealth, which will be redistributed to all that are less well off. Only after the state is in control and stripping everyone of their possessions to create a society of a small elite at the top with the rest becoming a desperately poor mass with no freedom do they begin to realize Utopia is never going to happen.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 5 months ago
    It's called readign, kids and adults don't to it any moreg. Yes, Rand understood first hand. However, we used to read "1984", "Brave New World",, "Dr. Zhivago" and so much more. We lived in those books for days, and we understood. When our daughter read "Anthem" at 9 years old, she recognized some of the brainwashing in the school she attended. Kids are daily sent messages from TV, school, society, to become socialists and ultimately communists. It is because we do not thing nor research for ourselves. If we don't do the work, we will not appreciate what we are letting slip away.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 7 years, 5 months ago
      In the early 60's I read a book titled "A Wrinkle In Time" when I was quite young. It opened my eyes to a lot and acted as an inoculation against propaganda to come. By the time I read "1984" I already understood more than most my age. "Atlas Shrugged" came even later and by then I could recognize statist BS easily when I saw it.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 7 years, 5 months ago
    our govt education system has one goal...turn out mindless sheepole...it is working...and democracy is tyranny of the majority...that is also working...only a collapse and reset can lead to a better future, but in a collapse all bets are off on a liberty-oriented future...that will go to the prepared...prepare...
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  • Posted by blackswan 7 years, 5 months ago
    There is NO innocent path to socialism. The folks who "fall" for it are dishonest at heart, and are knowingly going for something that they know doesn't work.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      That's interesting and makes me think about a concept I'm trying to cover in a book I'm writing. Is being stupid as bad as being guilty? In my mind...when it comes to collectivism the answer is yes. I see a lot of people here in California who seem to honestly believe in collectivism - as though it's a perfect solution. Of course, if they come to take my stuff (or worse) they'll be in for a rude awakening.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 5 months ago
    There's an old story that circulates by those who have been here over 10 years from Eastern Europe.Itgoes like thie: A man, fresh from having escaped Russia is living with relatives and got a good paying job as a painter. Hie was urged to buy a suit so he could go out with his friends dancing or attending a play or concert. He went into a department store's mens department and asked see a suit. He figured they would show him a blue suit and a brown suit and he had already made up his mind to get the blue. But then, the salesman after taking his measurements showed him a blue suit, a brown suit, a grey suit, a tan suit, a dark green suite, a patterned suit and a chalk stripe suit. He looked at the enormous (to him) variety and his mind just jammed up seeing so much. The salesman saw his distress and thought it was just that he didn't like the colors. "I have several more styles, sir or perhaps a sport coat and contrasting slacks." That did it. It was like his brain had burst with choices. He fainted dead away and the EMS had to be called.
    It illustrates how capitalism, through competition gets you not only competition in price and quality, but in variety as well. Coming directly from a place that gave you two choices to one where there was seemingly unending choices was more than someone coming from east Europe could handle. When you're used to privation, the abundance that capitalism provides can be downright overwhelming.

    The story is found to be funny to American immigrants because they all went through it themselves and trying to be sophisticated, chuckle at the distress of the "greenhorns."
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      When I worked for a major aircraft manufacturer in the northwest (you can guess) my boss took in a Soviet (this was about 1990) musician who was in visiting Soviet band that had gotten financially stranded in Seattle for a while. Citizens up there volunteered to help these folks. Well, one day he had the musician accompany him to the grocery store. As soon as the Soviet entered the store and saw all the overflowing bins of produce is ran out of the store openly sobbing. He was overcome, overwhelmed by the abundance. It was way beyond anything he'd ever seen.

      I'll never forget that story.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 7 years, 5 months ago
        Abaco, this story must not be so uncommon. I have a Polish friend who "escaped" from Poland in the mid 60's as a teenager and by the mid 80's we were coworkers here in the States. Around that time he managed to bring his retired parents to the U.S. from Poland. When he took them to a super market the first time they were sure he must have become a high party official to even set foot in such a place and he had to convince them otherwise. They were especially impressed by the long and well stocked meat counters and couldn't believe how people so casually walked by them browsing without snatching up the first piece they could get their hands on even if it was to resell on the black market.

        Here's a story he told me that took place in his town near the Russian border before he left. It seems the Russians had loaded up a train with confiscated Polish livestock and were about to send it to Russia while the Polish people were going hungry. Well, some Polish patriots took a burn to that and distracted the railroad personnel while others welded the train to the track. He said the Russians got pissed and there were reprisals, but wouldn't go into details. I asked if that is why he left Poland and he just shrugged his shoulders. I assume the answer was yes, but it was not a pleasant experience so I didn't press.
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  • Posted by ycandrea 7 years, 5 months ago
    Well, I haven't ever lived it, but I see it. It is amazing how some of my friends and family cannot see it. It defies reality and logic. They seem like normal, intelligent people...then they spew their socialistic vomit. I stare at them in wonder. I just do not get it. Your friends are a perfect example of why we need immigrants. Thank God for their strength and hope.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      Yes. They are really neat people. And (sorry) what is it about Ukrainian women? I've met so many stunning ones. This one is incredible. I'm trying not to stare - haha. The husband's a handsome dude, too. Very good-looking, intelligent, experienced people...exactly what the left seems to hate. People who exude strength are being targeted...
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      • Posted by ycandrea 7 years, 5 months ago
        I always like to talk to people from other countries. I find it so interesting to find out how they lived and how much they love America. As a child, my Dad was a truck driver and a letter carrier. He used to bring home people he would meet on his routes so we could all get to know them. They seemed to have a passion for our freedoms that we have lost. (He would also bring home stray dogs so we could love them.) It was a great experience.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          That's neat.

          I also love to talk to people from other countries. In the past couple years I have befriended a couple families who (literally) escaped Ecuador. The stories they tell are amazing. It is an absolute crime that the media here refuses to cover that story.
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  • Posted by Ben_C 7 years, 5 months ago
    I call it government creep. Same principle as the frog in a pot of water. Socialism is very real in our country. Hang out in any Social Security Office for a day and watch the flow of people looking for handouts. Margaret Thatcher once said, "Socialism is a great idea until you run out of other peoples money." The rich are simply not rich enough to support socialism in the US.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 7 years, 5 months ago
      Nice Thatcher quote! +1 for sure.
      Here's one I made up:
      "Socialism can be made to appear to work as long as there is a strong capitalist base to support it."
      And this:
      "Socialists are a misguided people who have become so frustrated over their inability to make the lame walk that they cripple everybody in the name of equality. Communists are of similar bent except their frustration is over raising the dead."
      And another:
      "Socialist/Communist experiments in the past century have actually been completely successful. Given their main goal is to make everyone equal and given the only place all mankind is truly equal is in the graveyard, they have greatly succeeded in making millions of people prematurely truly equal. Unfortunately the living would rather not participate in that kind of equality."
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  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 5 months ago
    Yakov Smirnov did a whole series on this, as have a few other Youtubers. America has had it so good for so long that no one here has any concept of a hard life. I think that's one of the benefits of doing a little international travelling where you have to live with the people: you get to know them, how they think, and their situation from real people - not just a few in-and-out journalists.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 7 years, 5 months ago
    Well, that's true enough.(Abaco's comments). But I think the real prob-
    lem is the altruist morality, as Ayn Rand said. And
    as long as so many Americans believe in that,
    they're going to opt for going closer and closer to
    collectivism.
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  • Posted by starznbarz 7 years, 5 months ago
    "When the people find they can vote themselves money,
    that will herald the end of the republic." Next to last stop on the gravy train coming in a couple weeks - no matter who wins.
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  • Posted by skidance 7 years, 5 months ago
    I have a couple of friends from Russia who share the same opinion. First-hand experience, one could say, beats hearsay and propaganda by a mile.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 5 months ago
    Because American state school systems, and the unions that control them, have cut the history of Communism out of history books and classes.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 5 months ago
    Ahh...but We are the one's that are supposed to be AWAKE and AWARE and clearly...most are not!

    Is it in the water?, because of the evil allopathic, prescription drug addict industrial complex?
    Your guess is as good as mind.

    PA. have met many people coming to Hospice that say the same thing...
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  • Posted by mminnick 7 years, 5 months ago
    The progressives of both parties have spent over 120 years prepping the American people for the (possibly) upcoming experiment in socialism. They have carefully created a welfare class, a working class and a ruling class. The have fostered hate and discontent between and among the constituent races of the American body politic. All is ready for the final nudge . That nudge is/was to be given by Mrs. Bill Clinton.
    It is stated that a people get the government they deserve. I'm not sure about this, but I do know if Mrs. Clinton gets in, most Americans will wish they can get out. Unfortunately, there is no where to go.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 5 months ago
    I read of a very similar conversation at the start of the fundamental fascist's regime. An Eastern European was anxiously asking why Americans would want to destroy all their wonderful freedoms.
    That was about eight whole years ago before the enthusiastically followed Bolshevik Bernie got burned due to a preference for stealth socialism and a rigged for an entitled coronation.
    Will the sheeple ever learn?.
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  • Posted by wiggys 7 years, 5 months ago
    Our history I believe of the shift towards socialism started when our government started taxing us to fight wars and the result was "highwaymen" modern ones which exist saw an easy path to looting the kitty. Their example has propagated it self for 200 years and the number of looters as we know has grown due to the increase of confiscated money. This behavior is encouraged by the wealth of the country so the looters will protect them. In order to keep the system the looters have created they have figured out that it is their best interest to socialize all sources of revenue. At this juncture I believe the ultimate end which maybe 30 years off will be that nobody works so all revenue stops. And the obvious result will be that socialism has un-mistakenly failed again as it should. Then AJ we will know what your friends know.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
    I think their exactly right. I hope they're wrong about being on a path toward socialism. I don't see it happening. It does seem like the very notion of socialism/communism has become a joke, not something to be taken seriously anymore.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
      How can you not see it happening? That's interesting. I'm taking it very seriously. Just the other day I looked at my taxes and paycheck to realize I'm paying about $3500/month just for the privilege to live here in California, USA. I get zero back for all that money. Zilch. It's taken from me. Then...I started thinking. How far would that $3500 go if I lived someplace else...?
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
        "How can you not see it happening? "
        I guess I keep thinking there will be a backlash before it gets out of hand. But there's no sign of that. yet.
        $3500 is just staggering, considering there are some states that have no income tax and have part of the primary residence exempt from property taxes.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
          Oh, I see. I actually think there won't be enough backlash. In fact, if people of our ilk try to create backlash they'll be carted off (or worse) when it comes to it.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 5 months ago
            If you look at the long-run, though, the idea that your life is yours, that you can create more value than you're born with, and that what you make is yours is new. Before the industrial revolution, wealth was mostly correlated to land, and people accepted feudalism as a divine plan. We're now in a new phase of it, one based on automation and information. This accelerates the ability of someone who's the best at something to sell it around the world and the ability of someone who can make niche products/services that would never justify shelf space to sell it way down the long tail. So I'm hoping that leads to another increase in personal freedom. I agree, though, it could easy go the other way. Some people feel like history was on a march to the US Constitution, and now liberty is just a forgone conclusion. We had 200 years of the US Constitution being the model for other countries. We could easily have 200 years of decreasing liberty next. I'm focused on making that not happen.
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            • Posted by $ 7 years, 5 months ago
              Right. Isn't it in the Money Speech where it's said that America was the first to even use the term "to make money"? Very new concept. That's why the dark ages are behind us and, I hope, stay there...
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