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When is the proper time to resist with force?

Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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Consider the question posed in this excerpt from John Ross' "Unintended Consequences"

Totalitarian regimes are wrong, so don't let the State enslave you'. That's like saying, 'Don't get sick'. The important question is, when do you know it's going to become enslavement? When is the proper time to resist with force?"
"Please elaborate, Mr. Bowman." Henry took a deep breath.
"The end result, which we want to avoid, is the concentration camp. The gulag. The gas chamber. The Spanish Inquisition. All of those things. If you are in a death camp, no one would fault you for resisting.
But when you're being herded towards the gas chamber, naked and seventy pounds below your healthy weight, it's too late. You have no chance. On the other hand, no one would support you if you started an armed rebellion because the government posts speed limits on open roads and arrests people for speeding.
So when was it not too late, but also not too early?"
"Tell us, Mr. Bowman."
"Professor Arkes, I teach a Personal Protection class off-campus, where most of the students who sign up are women. I'm seeing some strong parallels here, so please indulge me in an analogy."
"Go ahead."
"A woman's confronted by a big, strong, stranger. She doesn't know what he's planning, and she's cautious.
Getting away from him's not possible. They're in a room and he's standing in front of the only way out, or she's in a wheelchair—whatever. Leaving the area's not an option.
"So now he starts to do things she doesn't like. He asks her for money. She can try to talk him out of it, just like we argue for lower taxes, and maybe it will work. If it doesn't, and she gets outvoted, she'll probably choose to give it to him instead of getting into a fight to the death over ten dollars. You would probably choose to pay your taxes rather than have police arrive to throw you in jail.
"Maybe this big man demands some other things, other minor assaults on this woman's dignity. When
should she claw at his eyes or shove her ballpoint pen in his throat? When he tries to force her to kiss him?
Tries to force her to let him touch her? Tries to force her to have sex with him?" Henry took a deep breath and shrugged.
"Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I tell the women to fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air conditioning, great stereo, come on,just put on the cuffs.'
"I tell women that if that ever happens, maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music. But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to fight, and now it is too late." Henry realized he had been making eye contact with all the other people in the lecture hall, just as he did when he taught a course. Now he looked directly at the professor.
"How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the handcuffs out?"


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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Border security on non-native plants, fruits, and veg are very strict in Australia and NZ, too, but they wouldn't assess a fine on a traveler who did not understand. However, they do announce the restrictions clearly for those who read English. I had a few onion seeds in a bag with some sea shells picked up in NZ. I had no idea they were there, but I'm sure they came from our garden in NZ. The seeds were removed by customs agent and the shells allowed in to Australia with no fine.

    Australia is quite strict about keeping out older people (over 50) except as tourists (90 day visa) or as wealthy retirees (special expensive visa application.) Young people are accepted for work if they have a company sponsor who pays a fee of roughly $3000 and guarantees to pay the immigrant a salary equal or higher than the average paid to an Australian for a similar job and if there is no Australian who can do the job. There is also a fee (about $500??) paid by the immigrant for the work visa application.

    There was a weekly drama on tv in Australia for about 5 years called, Sea Patrol. It regularly showed attempts to immigrate illegally. This was fiction, not a reality show. Decent writing and acting, too. Much better than US reality fare.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I watched the border security episodes for Canada and Australia on Netflix. Very interesting that they both have very strict entrance requirements even for visiting- for instance a simple thing like a DUI in the USA will keep disqualify you from admittance into Canada or Australia. They just turn you away at the border of either of those two countries. No wonder they have no terror incidents !!!

    The USA border security doesnt seem to be as strict at all, but its very bureaucratic. No prescription pills come in without an accompanying paper prescription. No bananas can be brought even in one's carry on. $300 fine for not declaring two bananas. The lady couldnt even eat them in the customs area to avoid the fine.
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  • Posted by Abaco 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Interesting observation. I often joke that "Trump's wall" isn't to keep other out - but to keep me in. I also firmly believe that it will eventually be impossible to leave legally.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Anarchy would work just fine if the human race was mature enough to handle it. Unfortunately that may be many years in the future if we survive. You are handling your life the way you regard that's best for you. In my case, I was able to sock away enough to be debt free and have enough to live on so long as I maintain a modest life style, which I do. My only regret is that I don't travel anymore, but even if I could afford it, my body keeps me at home. The consciousness travels the universe, however.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I suppose they use force when the citizens dont comply willingly with what the government wants them to do, or try to protect their own interests in the face of government intrusions. The first thing will be the $15 minimum wage that people will try to get around by reducing staff of american workers (important due to increasing regulations granting more paid time off and health insurance issues), buying more subassemblies and services from china (somewhat risky in view of potential trade deals that will be made), and accelerating automation and use of robots (very important and under our direct control). I am doing all those things right NOW in anticipation of whats coming. Wait too long, and those actions will be "discouraged" or forbidden by government. 10-289 is indeed coming relative to laying off workers without some sort of fairly drastic penalties.
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  • Posted by Abaco 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No. Based on what I'm seeing they'll ignore it. Literally, the attorneys are in charge on this and they deem themselves qualified to ignore it. I could tell you a recent story on this, but would have to be over a beer - not here. I recently had to cite the very first rule in a meeting with a familiar organization (familiar to you).
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  • Posted by Abaco 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think we'll see massive force applied upon the citizens starting in three to six years of Hillary. However it could happen within the first six months.
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  • Posted by a59430802sojourner 8 years, 9 months ago
    Take examples from John Galt and Hugh Akston. They refused to provide their abilities and took menial jobs to support themselves. To me that is what going Galt is and i have done so since the late 70s.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What would pride have to do with it? I do not understand that "too proud" nonsense. I have heard that all my life. Pride is something one gets by accomplishments, it is not some kind of mortal sin. Just another thing that religion has ruined.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Short of anarchy which cannot work, it is necessary to pay for some government. The idea is to lessen the government to a small enough tax income to just pay for governing services and not have enough for anything else.

    I did have the advantage of having found a three room house that rented for $720 a year for 27 years. That helped a lot. In the 1980s I tried health insurance for a few years, but the premiums kept increasing 15% a year so I went the rest of the time without. Since the dear citizens of the USA threatened me with prison when I tried to opt out of Medicare, I use that and have $653 a month SS which I was forced to pay into.
    I have been on the grid all the time but have kept the heat down and no air conditioning until about 8 years ago. Now, things are much more expensive than what the cost of living increases would have been. For example, where I live now, back in those days the water and sewer were about $10 a quarter for 50,000 gal and today I pay $90 a quarter service charge plus about $10 per 1000 gal. If it wasn't for my luxuries like phone, internet, and cable with some premium service I would be on easy street. I also feed 8 cats and about 4 raccoons. Don't have a wife or kids, that helps a lot.
    Local government here sucks. Just lost my second vehicle because it was declared a junk vehicle because it wasn't moved in every 10 day period even though it was insured, licensed, and ran OK. The house I own is 90 years old and getting to the point of needing some updating for code. But I am 76 and have some stents and will not last forever, so it isn't too hard to keep up. Hope the rest of you have it fairly easy.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's time to try and predict a timeline for the future. The outcome of this election is critical, I think, in terms of when the country will drift into socialism and what will happen. Trump will slow it down and inspire citizens here to be more responsible and collectively make the country a better place. He isn't perfect and he needs congress to allow him to unshackle us of course.

    On the other hand, if Hillary wins, cronyism gets really entrenched into our government, Obamacare gets changed into universal Medicare, $15 minimum wage gets in, deficit spending will increase, and Syrian refugees and terrorists will infiltrate the us. Government controls will become more pervasive and the fight to take guns away from citizens will intensify. We should look to Venezuela as the blueprint for our future under Hillary
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So, you paid taxes on 8 months income, on what you purchased and for services. Even if you never worked another day, you'd have to show the money you lived on as income. But, I understand that you were staying off-grid to a great extent. Not total freedom but only one handcuffed instead of two.
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  • Posted by Abaco 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This recent development about $15 minimum wage!...I'm not too proud to take advantage of that! I'd be the most highly educated, most licensed burger flipper ever. I'd just go over to the local burger joint owned by a guy who used to be a neighbor and say, "Put me on your call list." Hell, I'll drop it to $13/hour for cash! Haha...
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  • Posted by Abaco 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yeah, just withdraw as best you can. I'm without debt anymore. I set aside funds for a gargantuan rainy day. I quit voting. Quit watching the recent debates. Rarely watch pro sports (rarely have time). I interact with my kids as much as possible. We either "staycation" or take fun family trips that we can drive to. I don't run my family through the rape machine at the airport (see my recent post about sexy time on my last trip).

    I think it's wise for all of us to start researching other places to go, perhaps formulate a plan to get out in case it happens. I work with a like-minded guy who I go sailing with on occasion. Just today we were discussing the advantages of having a decent-sized sailboat as an escape pod. Sure, they can still chase you down, but...Anybody remember THX1138? Great movie - George Lucas' first movie. Near the end they stop chasing the protagonist, just calling off the chase because it exceeds the budget (not worth the effort). I realize this may sound paranoid. But, I'm just an apolitical guy who observes. It's clear to me that there are some real dark forces in play here now.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    apologies about my grammar...it seems my English is starting slip or my attention to my spell checker has waned. Not a good sign for someone who writes novels.
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  • Posted by Kittyhawk 8 years, 9 months ago
    Wow, thank you freedomforall for mentioning such an intriguing book as Unintended Consequences. I looked it up on amazon.com and it has enthusiastic reviews, but it's apparently out of print and going for $65+ for a used paperback. I wish the author would print some more copies!
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  • Posted by gcarl615 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I certainly agree that the Republic is gone and is probably in its final death throws. I do believe its not how much money you have right now, but what you do with what you have. Like beans, bullets and bandages.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Going Galt does not mean leaving society, just not producing to further the government. Back in the 1970s, as a chemist, I did not want to register with the government because that would take away some of my future freedom. So I decided to go some other way than to help support a lot of you guys with new knowledge. Want knowledge, get out of the way. For the number theory that was my other interest, I decided not to try to publish due to the possibility at the time of running into the government's program to stop publications in certain areas of number theory. So I decided to start a small lawn care business with all the work done by myself and thus minimize taxes and only give value to my customers. I also got four months a year vacation to do math and study various sciences and I did neglect politics and religion but read mostly Austrian economics and Rand's works besides math and physics and chemistry. In that way I went Galt, but did not have to find a mythical gulch to hide in for over 40 years. I have everything I need, a house, 1500 books, TV's, computers, expensive math software, etc. There is nothing about reality that requires one to acquire great wealth and a high standard of living. Also it is best to stay away from time wasters such as drugs, alcohol, religion, and too much helping of others who can help themselves and who can eat you alive and leave you with little time for the important stuff.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I cannot see a way of taking back this country. Restoring its constitution is more and more a pipe-dream. Our people have become morally relative and its plainly evident in our politicians (and our two front running candidates). Short of blood being shed, that of tyrants and patriots, there is no solution, if even blood shed could be a solution, for this situation we're in. Your SS and my SS are gone..we'll be paid, you more so than I I'm sure, by loans from foreign powers to feel a bloated beast run by self-centered power mongers seeking to like their pockets.

    This veteran, this Constitutional Conservative has done more than my fair share to reverse this decline - served, commentary, radio, books. Its a lesson in futility, the people don't know who they are and they don't care what they are casually tossing away.

    Slash and burn? Sit and help in sink? Shrugging, running to hide, is not an option today.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Agreed. I would much prefer to be around when it happens if for no other reason than to get the satisfaction of seeing the destructive bastard suffer the consequences of their own decisions, whether they own up to it or not. Sadly today far too many don't even recognize the threads of the noose they are weaving around their and their childrens necks.
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  • Posted by chad 8 years, 9 months ago
    If someone is threatening you the time to stand up is now! Every advance after that compromises your ability to defend yourself and the opportunity to prevent your being a slave is diminished with each encroachment. In the final phase the decision is usually what will I take with me as I flee my home and hope to escape the intention and attention of the slavers?
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  • Posted by gcarl615 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I strongly disagree with the concept of taking what you can to speed the demise of the "system". This makes you a looter and a parasite. However, finding away to take back what has taken from you at the point of a gun, IE income taxes or Social Security taxes, is an honorable way to retain or regain the fruits of your productivity. I feel no remorse at taking every dime of SS benefits I get. I paid for them and will never get back what they stole from me.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    definitely wishful thinking. unfortunately if she croaked off, there would just be another one just like her to take her place. There are too many statist people in this country. If Hillary wins, I say there is no saving the usa, and it just needs to disintegrate and hit bottom. Hopefully by then, people might even understand what happened, but I kind of doubt that too.
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