An Objectivist becomes a Christian - it is the logical conclusion of Objectivism
Posted by supernan 7 years, 6 months ago to Philosophy
I have decided to become a Christian. If they are right, then I do not want to burn in hell. If they are wrong, then nothing matters anyways. This is the most purely self-interested conclusion to reach.
You're obviously not now, and have never been an Objectivist.
Nonsense.
This is why discussing faith and belief beyond the narrow scope of Objectivism (statement not criticism) on this site is s moot point. Self-interest is subjective to each individual. By what right does anyone have the ability to tell anyone else what to or not to believe?
Well, taking this statement, that would seem to say (I could be mistaken) that we should discuss how Objectivism works, but not the conclusions we draw from it in terms of consequences. This would seem to say, think but don't share what you are thinking. Can someone say "political correctness?"
I write science fiction. My reality is the same as your except that I do not rule out the possibility of there being more than what we can see, touch, taste, and smell. In order words my sense of what could be is much wider than what I've seen here on this site (and I've been around a while). I respect everyone's views and discuss them without insulting them or being condescending simply because its impossible for us to know whats next. My approach on this matter can hardly be seen as reciprocated by many of the folks here.I consider those encounters, those bumps, the toll I pay to associate. Again, I've been here a good while and I don't shoot off the cuff very often nor do I throw around words without reason.
What you value and what I value, what you determine you need and what I determine I need can be two entirely different things, and the extent to which you and I would go to obtain what we feel we need (value) is different as well. You don't need reason to physically determine you need food, shelter and clothing. You don't need reason to know your stomach is grumbling and that you need food, that you're cold and need clothes, or that you wish to rest and need safe shelter to do so. You can rationalize theft or murder if you had to in order to provide personal justification in obtaining any or all of those things because, in your depleted condition, see those needs as priority in your own personal self interest.
A hermit ran reason abduction, imprisonment and rape of another with his/her reason.
While you and I may mostly agree to what is and isn't rational there are many who do not agree and live differently. Thats a Constitutional right that must be respected.
"Of course anyone has the right to do what they please as long as they don’t violate the rights of others." This does make it subjective no? What if they do not acknowledge our rights or laws? What if they live by their own laws and define (and assign) their own rights in our society?
If we did we'd not have murder, taxes, theft, etc..
How is believing in something beyond our 120 years on this earth, after the objectivity totality of existence, considered surrender or an infringement on Objectivism? Is Objectivism requiring fidelity in the life after the death it refuses to acknowledge (I am being a bit sarcastic here)?
I'm still not a mormon Khalling :P
No. It simply defines the limits of one’s moral actions in respect to the rights of others. It does not determine whether such actions will be in the person’s self-interest. You said earlier that “self preservation, even believing in something/someone who is beyond that which we perceive as reality, is self-interest and a rational action no?” Not if such belief is motivated by fear, as in “believe this or you will burn for all eternity.” Such belief (if it can even be called that) undercuts reason at its root and ultimately destroys one’s means of perceiving reality.
One could even say Objectivism, like other systems of belief, provide structure in life, a code to provide surety, validate actions and stave off death (by being successful).
Fear need not only represent death. Failure is huge as well, but that does tie into the ability to care for one's self or others and how that degrades love, pride, etc.
I do appreciate this conversation even if we can't agree. :)
Incidentally, I don't understand how people with faith fear death. You'd think the better place would be more appealing...go figure, life mystery.
Sometimes I think fear motivates everything for Republicans. lol j/k, but only a little.
Yes. It's just more obvious when the other party does it. Fear gets attention.
If they are wrong - everything matters in the real world.
Cheers...
We would agree that love exists, but how do you replicate that in the science lab? They won't touch it in those terms because you would have to trust that 1) it is there (as a general definition, 2) it comes from a non-material source (and don't tell me it is a survival mechanism that animals also have....animals do not love (as I define love).
If Jesus is the Messiah/Savior then he is beyond being fooled by someone making a false clam in belief no matter how well practiced and delivered.delivered.
We do not know what that is, why that is, but we can observe that this existence exists and if one is creating value or at least not destroying value and represents the values and intentions of the ways in which existence exists, ie the physical laws...(reflecting the image), then there is nothing to worry about.
Reject that image, (indulging in quantum divorce with the given quantum entanglements) is destroying value; a denial of existence and it's consequences itself would maybe cause your future existence to be reduced to a single particle...bouncing around with no entanglements and no purpose...(without so much as a numbered T shirt on anyone's wall)
This is what the teachings of Jesus is all about. ( How to behave when you become aware of your own behavior). Unfortunately, that conversation continues in pagan bicameral speak and never evolved with the journey into the "Mind" (a quantum field outside your head) taken by, only 50% of western civilization.
It's not about a guy in the sky. It's about the continued existence of existence, staying within those few laws that create just enough resistance to keep everything going...not to much (totalitarian, over regulation) and not to little...(anything goes); and being happy, creative, prosperous and naturally sharing any abundance,( beyond your own survival and your own happiness), you may have with others when needed and justified.
It's not mystical, it's quantum physical. Each and every cell in your body has the same instructions, the same expectations...however, the cells in your body do not have choice...you do have a choice...do you chose Max entropy via value destruction?, do you chose 0 entropy via a total rejection of existence or do you chose abiding by a few simple rules that will ultimately allow existence and your own existence and happiness, to continue to exist for yourself and others.