Rand and Rickover; Interesting Similarities

Posted by $ Thoritsu 7 years, 9 months ago to History
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For some reason, this popped into my head while listening to Ayn from khalling's post.

Both Rand and Rickover were very intelligent, sharp, cutting, and spoke with blinding clarity. Both from Russia (Rickover from Poland, at the time occupied by the Tsar). Both jewish heritage. Both wildly successful in establishing a philosophy, Rand's Objectivism and Rickover's Nuclear Navy.

Do others see the parallels and/or have other observations about their similarities, or other connections?

I knew another much older engineer, while working early in my career, who was also from Russia, It shocked me to hear it. Absolutely no accent, whatsoever, and he came to the US at 14. Also very, very sharp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_G...


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  • Posted by jimslag 7 years, 9 months ago
    I went through Navy Nuclear Power School in 1982, Class 8203. I was section leader for Section 12 (ET's) and had a great time as I was a Chemical Engineering major before I ran out of money and had to drop out. It was a tough but fair school and we only had a 40% graduation rate in that class. Anyway, being a Navy Nuc, I revered Admiral Rickover, he was the father of the program I was in. I actually got to meet the revered Admiral (retired) a couple of times. On a side note, I also got to meet Admiral Grace Hopper. Anyway, I was still in school when they eventually got Rickover to retire (forced), I seriously think he would have stayed until he died if they let him. He started as a Navy Engineering Officer and he had a thing about education. He died in 1986 and the entire Nuclear Navy grieved the loss.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      Great man. The generation he left carried on his mantras, but I wonder how long it will continue.

      Grace Hopper was very cool too. Love the idea of microseconds in the length of wires! However, COBOL was not a good language. I agree with her aim, but that language is just yucky!
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      • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 9 months ago
        What is your programing background? Forms of COBOL have been used for over 50 years. I didn't like it because I am more a math guy. A lot of so called good languages can be called yucky by those who don't like them or find them too cumbersome. I would like APL or LISP or FORTH but after spending time with them found them yucky due to the near unreadableness of APL, too much parenthesis clutter for LISP, and hard to use RPN stack manipulation for FORTH.
        COBAL has served its purpose and is slowly dying off.
        Now I just use Mathematica which uses Wolfram Language.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
          I learned programming exactly the wrong way, but I'm now pretty broadly "programmable". I learned BASIC first (high school/college), then FORTRAN (collage), then COBOL (summer job). I did APL (high school) and LISP (grad school). LISP was the first time I really got at ease with the language, rather than fighting it. I tried C, but couldn't get it, then a friend told me to learn Pascal first. That was a turning point. Data types, pointers, structures and objects! Ahhhh. Calling a function with a pointer, so cool. Then I picked up C easily (first job), and it because a religion. I just loved C after that. I taught my buddy C in my first job. We became formatting nazis, Upper case globals, indentation, blah blah. Like a youthful gang! He left and became a pretty successful programmer, and also Apple zealot, like I was back then.

          Agree APL is a mess, unnecessary now with Maple, Mathematica, MathCAD and MatLab or even C libraries. I looked over FORTH once. Not sure why. Think it was for an HP data acq system.

          I thought COBOL was overly wordy. So much to type to do simple things. If you understand math and functions, I thought COBOL was an impediment. I saw no advantage for it over FORTRAN, or even the structured BASIC languages that emerged (of course, much newer). I agree it served its purpose.

          I'm in management now, so not much time at work for programming. We do a lot of simulation of electrical systems. I really likes SABER/VHDL-AMS, but it has gone away. Simplorer took up where SABER left off, but it doesn't have the user base, so we are using MatLab/Simulink, which now has a charge-conservative toolset in SimScape, where you can write VHDL-AMS again! I do get to mess with this, but it is so infrequent, I am a klutz. On a good day, I get to look over results, and task people to make new runs.
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          • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 9 months ago
            I got interested in FORTH because of an interest in threaded interpreter languages. That was back in early PC days. Back then, the interpreter was fairly short but when later CPUs came out, the interpreter could be written in one machine instruction.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
              CPM on a KayPro? If so thanks it got me started.
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              • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 9 months ago
                I started the PC thing with a one Kbyte (memory chips with 1000 bits were about $25 in those days) Altair 8800 kit computer without a keyboard or monitor. Had to do everything in machine language through toggle switches and LED readouts. Had to modify a old TV for a monitor and add an old airline keyboard for input. It grew and grew eating all my extra cash. Then a used IBM PC followed by Radio Shack Color Computers. The Color Computer 3 was interesting for having multitasking with multiple windows in a UNIX like OS9 operating system but only a one MHz 6809 CPU.
                Things have really improved, though so much of my stuff has gone obsolete with no way to use all those floppy disks and DOS stuff. I wonder when DVDs will go obsolete for some new storage system? All to the good though. I do number theory and sometime need to do million digit math which would be way to slow on previous generations of computers. It is amazing how far things went back before electronic calculators where there were slide rules and some sometimes fun to watch mechanical calculators doing multiplications and divisions. I recall photos of some guys at the Skunkworks with slide rules working on the Blackbird stealth spy plane. That was back in the days when log tables were still useful.
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                • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
                  It is amazing how sloppy we become, when necessity isn't there. GB of RAM, TB of HDD, GHz processors, but I'm not sure I can do that much more with a desktop than I could with an old 68000 Mac. Slide rules themselves will never make a comeback, but the math used in them will always be valuable.

                  BTW, I'm pretty sure you can run OS9 on a Raspberry PI. Cool little OS.
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                • Posted by dukem 7 years, 9 months ago
                  IBM 1620, punched paper tape, GoTran, "reset, insert, release, start".

                  The good old days. Glad they are gone, glad they were here.
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
                    "The good old days. Glad they are gone, glad they were here."
                    That's how I feel about the good old days: glad they were here but even gladder they're gone.
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                    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
                      Agree. Much prefer modern computers, calculators (which I do on my phone now...still RPN!), and my Raspberry PI2!
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                      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 9 months ago
                        A few years ago downloaded a free app for the HP48, and I realized an era ended. I bought that calculator in the 90s on a credit card with money I didn't have. If I could go back in time I'd tell myself to stick with the 32S until I actually had a positive net worth.

                        When the 32S was discontinued, it acquired value as a collectible. I sold it and its box and bought a 33S. I still like the feel of an HP with real buttons much better than any app.
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                        • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
                          I know what you mean, but I travel all the time and don't want to carry another thing. I have a 48G and an older, but much beloved 28S. I love that 28. My ex wife got it for me when I graduated undergraduate. It could do symbolic differentiation and integration back in 1987! I think it had a symbolic/LISP engine. Just amazing, and an indication of what can be done when resources are limited (necessity)!

                          Totally agree with you about the feel of the keys and the weight of the calculator.
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                  • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
                    I used to work in an IBM Mainframe shop for corporate IT as a summer job. I never used punch cards myself. One day a guy had a huge program he needed read in from a big deck of them. We moved an old punch card machine, hooked it up, read his deck in and wrote it to tape. Back to the corner it went.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
                  My first the Kaypro was 64K Ram and only floppy drives but two of them at DSDD seemed a huge amount. I just ordered up a new one with 12 expandable to 16 GB RAM and 2 TB hard drive with a companion 2TB external. One of my freckles has more than 64K how ever did we do it? 1984 32 years ago this September. it was a portable too. small suitcase size and arounmd 50 pounds as I recall.
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              • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
                Precursor to DOS. Better in many ways for what it was.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
                  I don't do code I just use computers. When we had a shop for such stuff I was known for the ability to crash any program written for customers within an hour. Secret was it had to be MS and a new version. Little harder when years later they got the bugs fixed.
                  The worst example was the three dimenisonal filing program i forget which company they bought to get it. Foxpro i think. Excellent. THe MS Version featured a sample and if you didn't need many changes could be used as is but for most businesses no. Building your own eventually bogged down the computer and it crashed for no space available. You may remember the little lines you drew from one device to another which decided where whatever was to be stored, upgraded, cached, archived etc. THe MS version did not erase the lines when you erased them on the screen. Soon it was a mass of straight line spaghetti. Their answer was hire a programmer. We thought about it and did. Two high school kids. they worked with the small mom and pop businesses and then up to one's more advanced in needs and paid for college Wasn't that big a deal IF you knew what you guys know but for a veteran computer crasher it was Audie Murphy time. Two years i ran into someone suffering through that same program manual on the London subways. Same problem. she was a programmer. but had missed that solution. But she bought me dinner! Ha ha her company sent me a check. So that's my whole career in your career field. Must have been the demo dude background from the Army. Fire In the hole! And I never envied you bubble heads. parachutes don't work underwater.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 7 years, 9 months ago
    He was certainly a creator and a bit of a goof ball. Eccentrics like Rickover would not be tolerated in today's Navy.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      As evidenced back in 1981, you are quite right. He ordered an emergency crash astern, and the LA-Class boat he was on had a "loss of depth control". This was evidence of the "goofiness", and was used as an excuse to push him out by SecNav and SecDef.
      ...but he was wicked smart, and there would be no nuclear navy without him.
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  • Posted by ErikAZ 7 years, 9 months ago
    I attended sub school back in 1984 and having grown up being a fan of Admiral Rickover I was surprised at the complete lack of "history" we were taught about his accomplishments. It seems the USN had virtually whitewashed him at that point. There is a fairly good PBS "sort of" documentary called "Rickover: The Birth of Nuclear Power" I found on ITunes a while back that highlights is eccentricities. As a bit of an eccentric myself I really appreciate that.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      Think I have seen that one. It has an actor playing Rickover right? Very good.

      I never met Rickover, but know many that had. Some of his first NR leaders, I knew pretty well. One told me that he learned more from Rickover than he learned from his parents!
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  • Posted by dukem 7 years, 9 months ago
    I have a long time friend who commanded nuclear submarines and became an admiral. He had much direct interaction with Rickover back in the day.
    My friend always has this quote somewhere in his living or working space, and many today have not idea what this means:

    "RESPONSIBILITY

    “Responsibility is a unique concept... You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you... If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you have never had anyone really responsible.”
    ― Hyman G. Rickover"
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
      I wish I had asked to borrow that for another thread comment just finished. It ended up with the dual rights and corresponding responsibilities in a largely couch potato nation have worked to shift responsibility on them. And them is saying 'fine but first we'll ignore the constitution and show how it's really done.'

      No control rods in the voting booths. Just China Syndromes.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
        Just as a guess. The biggest problem(s) resided in the Pentagon.
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        • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
          He had so much power garnered via congressional support. He was more powerful than the CNO/Sec Nav.SecDef, and the modern guys were just waiting for an excuse to get rid of him.
          From what I hear, he should've retired, but the issues with General Dynamics at the time may have made him too angry to let go. Too bad he couldn't have done it on his terms.
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  • Posted by coaldigger 7 years, 9 months ago
    These are two examples, and there are many others, of how immigrants brought ideas and talents to America which we would be poorer without. A society, like a race, is kept fresh by the infusion of unrelated individuals and their desire to join and contribute.
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    • Posted by dukem 7 years, 9 months ago
      Agreed about the infusion of immigrants, with the emphasis on "desire to join and contribute."
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
        The bad ones are just when immigrants want to come here for the prosperity, but bring their "culture" with them. Hard work and great thoughts are one thing. Making the US a multilingual socialist state is quite another.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
          But making it's military a multi lingual Constitutional Republic asset is a positive step. English for within the country - something else for dealing outside our own borders.

          No. American English and Californian do not count as multi-lingual. Unfortunately our education system does not understand 'find a need and fill it' and prefers multi-illiteracy.
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