Galt's Gulch

Farmers Markets. Friend or Foe.

Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago to The Gulch: General
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I have had some interesting conversations with customers recently about our local Farmers Market. I support the concept and believe it is how business was meant to be done. Producers sell their items directly to consumers. I am in the unfortunate position of having to compete with our local Farmers Market which is within walking distance of my retail store. In todays government controlled world it is clear that Farmers Markets are basically Black Markets. They operate on Saturday and Sunday when most government inspectors are off. Our local market is held on church property so they don't pay property tax. It is unlikely that they are complying with many of the costly mandates that I am. I still support the concept and I am surprised when speaking to customers about this that they usually say that they should "have to pay" their fair share. I always say that neither one of us should have to pay most of these fees. Curious if you all had any thoughts about this.

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    Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 11 months ago
    They have a weekend business, you have a 7 day a week operation. They have to haul all of their stuff to and from location...yours is fixed. They stand in the elements, you have a cover. NEITHER of you should have to pay these taxes or fees, but you're the easier target for them to collect from. Farmer's markets are an inconvenient moving target for them....eventually I think the gov will herd them like the rest of us, or try to. But, you always have the options of closing up shop and becoming a traveling weekend merchant. :) While we're still "free", that is. Business owners' fight should be against the gov regulation, not the farmer's markets. (And I know that's the stand you are taking, but how many are of the mind set that if I have to pay then so should they attitude....which is wrong.) They're doing the same thing with eBay.....
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    • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago
      I am surprised too at the customers who have Obama stickers on their cars and yet they shop at the Farmers Markets. You would think they would be the first to rebel against it. I thought about becoming the Church of RichRobinson and running a week long Farmers Market.
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
        would there be some music?
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        • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago
          Yes. I like some of the religious music. This is one of my favorites.
          http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S0cMVmr11bY...
          Maybe I should let Objectiveanalyst make the selections.
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          • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
            I think it's a great song...except I would change the parts about who I was doing it for and I would not have a large cross in the sunset. you know, Objectivists recoil from those and hiss ;)
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 11 months ago
              Why? I've never understood why a non-believer would have any objection at all to religious symbolism.
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              • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
                well it represents certain things in our culture. It's not like you can ignore that. it stands for sacrifice. the symbol of the cross has bugged me since I was a child. I did not understand then, but I did feel manipulated
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 11 months ago
                  I think that you had some poor conveyors of theocracy along the way. I don't want to hijack the thread, but that cross/crucifix does not merely represent sacrifice - it represents an offer. You can think of it as a gate or a bridge. You have free will to choose to open/cross on your own volition. There should not be manipulation - for then you are not using your free will.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 11 months ago
                    Both Khalling and Robbie are right on this one. Your choice to accept the offer comes with a huge string attached - lordship. If you are willing to accept that as value for value, then you can be non-contradictory and still be Christian. However, being Objectivist and Christian would be very difficult; taking the oath would be an issue.
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                    • Posted by teri-amborn 11 years, 11 months ago
                      Actually, the cross represents the union between the soul and body. No more "soul-body dichotomy".
                      Objectivism IS what Christianity is supposed to be...without all of the "religious/Catholic/self-debasing" dogma: A philosophy of respect for yourself and others.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 11 months ago
                        More of Objectivism and Christianity are compatible than most people think. Like objectivism, Christianity is supposed to be a philosophy of respect for yourself and others, but the two belief systems are fundamentally different in that a) both self and others are subservient to God, b) the issue of altruism (although not as much as most Objectivists think. For example, Jesus said we would have the poor with us always.), and c) the relative importance of self vs. others.
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                        • Posted by teri-amborn 11 years, 11 months ago
                          ...Yes, but Jesus also referred to us as "little gods" ...
                          ...and the Pharisees were the folks that Jesus was addressing when He said: "Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." ...

                          ...and: "I came that you might have and own your own life."

                          Granted, "religion" will ruin your life. Altruism is a man-made emotional translation of words that Jesus spoke to the Jewish leaders, but wasn't meant to be translated into a universal principle.
                          Machiavellian power lusters have (and will) exist in all times and phases of life and they will create "rules" (religion) that allegedly (if obeyed) will lead to the approval of man (aka: little gods). The Pharisees were no exception. Neither is Washington, DC.

                          Remember: "The Kingdom of God is within you."
                          This is your life to live and develop to become the best that you can make it. Others are only peripheral to your goals and dreams. You owe no man, but respect.
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                          • Posted by johnpe1 11 years, 11 months ago
                            well said, Teri; Thank You! -- j

                            p.s. I have found that professing the baptist faith
                            serves to 1) state that we are personally individually
                            responsible to discern reality, across the entire spectrum,
                            and 2) help me converse with more people to a greater
                            positive extent, using terms which they understand.

                            when I state that "my prayers are with you," it
                            carries two primary meanings:: that I am sincerely
                            interested in helping you in this circumstance,
                            in this time, and that I consider your moral values
                            to be laudable, worthy of heartfelt support.

                            it works for me, and for those for whom I care,
                            deeply. -- j
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                            • Posted by teri-amborn 11 years, 11 months ago
                              Well: If you go through the Gospels and use a highlighter pen to denote the circumstances where Jesus remarked: "Your faith has made you whole." and "I have never seen faith like this in all of Israel!", you will find that these individuals were simply "connecting the dots" spiritually. In other words: They had the ability to extrapolate meaning from the patterns of life.

                              Ayn Rand had the ability to extrapolate meaning from the patterns of life ... therefore she was (and is) a woman of great faith.

                              The word "faith" doesn't have any further meaning than to be able to deductively and inductively reason. "Religion" has given the word no meaning, or a Jesus said: "The traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect." .
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 11 months ago
            Hello richrobinson,
            I agree with LS. Brick and mortar operations should not have to fear these types of operations. If over-regulation and taxation were removed from your burden, your permanent establishment and the inherent benefits would provide adequate protection in the marketplace.
            As far as the music goes: you keep playing whatever you like. It takes all kinds and I like all kinds, as long as it is good.
            Here are a couple of my favorites that have similar subject matter; both from people of my acquaintance.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD-I_CU2...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw0GiDHX...

            I hope you enjoy them.
            Regards,
            O.A.

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      • Posted by jpellone 11 years, 11 months ago
        It's very simple Rich... Their attitude is "Do as I say, Not as I do". I got in a pissing contest with a business owners wife one day because when someone burned up all of those Hummers, She was so happy about it I could not believe it but then I pointed out that she bought the biggest engine Mustang she could (GT350) and the answer I got was "Well, I've always wanted one." What a hypocrite!!!!
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        • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago
          Total hypocrite. I had a similar incident happen. I was talking politics with a leftie as he was getting in his SUV. I asked why he didn't have something more fuel efficient. He just laughed and said yeah I probably should get something smaller. Last I saw he got another SUV.
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      • Posted by strugatsky 11 years, 11 months ago
        Not at all. They are not "anti-capitalist" because they don't know the meaning of the word. There are two basic categories of people that love 0bama because: either those that are ready to give your life away for an 0bamaphone, so EBT bonuses are what they come for, or those that have an infantile belief that they are saving the planet, the insects and the frogs and, thus it's all for the common good. They don't have the intellectual capacity to understand any economic system. If you put an "organic" sign in front of any product, they get an instant orgasm. As for running a "Church of RichRobinson" Farmer's Market, it will live long and prosper, as long as it's for the community, the children, or organic.
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      • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 11 years, 11 months ago
        They won't rebel against it because they think it's all organic and special and oh so chic.
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        • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago
          True. I hear all the time how good they feel about supporting their local farmers. That's nice but they are taking sales away from local businesses. They seem to be okay with that.
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          • Posted by strugatsky 11 years, 11 months ago
            Depending on the type and size of your store, you can re-decorate it to look like a "farmer's market," only open 7 days a week. A FM does not have to have 20 different vendors; so long that you get your products, or some of them, from the local farms or producers, you can be a farmer's market. The same vendors that sell at the market may want to sell through your store the rest of the week.
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          • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
            I think your community is unique in not requiring licenses for vendors. In Colorado Springs we had to purchace a license, pay a space fee and show proof of liability insurance in order to be part of the farmers market. They also gave you a form to fill out showing your receipts for taxing purposes. But the markets were held in city owned parks not a private business parking lot. Still I would think it's on the city's radar.
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            • Posted by $ Snezzy 11 years, 11 months ago
              I have been asked to provide pony rides at a local Farmers Market, but have declined because of the red tape involved. It's held on county-owned property, and it seems there are always a few people concerned about the evil radiation that emanates from horses. Or that it's unfair to the horses to ask them to work.

              Sheesh, why do we have any civilization at all? Horses, horses, horses! Somewhere around 10,000 years ago some brave soul discovered that horses could do more than be meat. The rest, including the wheel, is pre-history.
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            • Posted by strugatsky 11 years, 11 months ago
              The markets are very much on the radar. Although the licensing fees are still low, the city owned markets are now charging more every year for the right to use the sidewalk. Some of those fees are quite high. Some markets use tokens in addition to cash; these tokens go through the market manager and are recorded. The market system grew tremendously in the past few years, but I think that they will start to decline in a few years as more and more regulations and fees are leveled at the producer. Eventually, the various local governments will make markets unfeasible because their virility will be rubbing in the wrong message compared to stale brick and mortar stores that are being run out of business by the regulations and taxes. For a parallel, look at Soviet Union's NEP (New Economic Policy) instituted by Lenin in the 1920's due to Bolshevik-created famine. Within a year the country was full of food; withing a couple of years the farmers were being executed because, as long as they were producing, capitalism was thriving and communism was dying. The Soviets would not have used such drastic measures if they had the IRS, USDA, OSHA, EPA...
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            • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago
              I would hope. I have asked as to how it operates but no one seems to know for sure. I know the mayor and I need to talk to him and get a better understanding of things. Property taxes in our area are really high so being on a tax exempt property is a tremendous advantage.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 11 months ago
      You forgot insurance and liability. Generally very hard to sue a merchant in a farmers market as there are usually more than one that sells the same items and they usually don't provide receipts or other markings to definitively identify them. Thus, you take your chances with what you purchase. A fixed store, on the other hand, is readily identifiable, and easily sued. Thus, they need to carry insurance to protect themselves, which is an additional cost of doing business over/above the regulation.
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      • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago
        Yes. Workers Comp. is another. I am required to carry work comp insurance for all employees. It's easy to check and see if I am compliant but with them not so much.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 11 months ago
          I wonder if most American employees still don't realize that it's the business that pays for Workman's comp. A lot of people I knew, back when I was an employer, thought it came out of the employee's pay...
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 11 months ago
            Well, you can look at it a number of ways. It's not a line item on the employee's paycheck, but if the employer didn't have to pay it, they would be able to increase the employee's wages.

            Neither is the "employer's portion" of social security shown on the employee's paycheck.
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    • Posted by RonC 11 years, 11 months ago
      I believe the government has realized how difficult a moving location is to tax and through the EPA the farmer will now begin paying his fair share. With the changes to the clean air and clean water acts there will now be fees for water usage, fees for cattle flatulence, fees for grazing plans (on your own land), fees for creating dust, fees for run off (even if it is rain) and $37,500.00 per day, per violation for those who chose to resist. It's only fair. For far too long farmers have not spread the wealth. Additionally, these fee will really be a thinly veiled value added tax, since each station in the market chain will mark up the prince and pass it along. And their profits must be taxed. It's the only way the collective can have equal results.
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    • Posted by NealS 11 years, 11 months ago
      Reference "how many are of the mind set that if I have to pay then so should they attitude....which is wrong". How do you feel about the concept that government people don't have to obey the laws anymore and we, the little people, do? Those fees you have to pay are there to support the bureaucracy, without those fees the bureaucracy could not exist. Hmmm...without them they would have to go out and get some kind of real job and maybe even do something productive for society.

      Hmmm.. How important it is for us to vote, as long as we know what we are voting for. We need to continue to spread the word and help our brethren make the right decisions in the next few elections. Start the with the totally ignorant ones first, the others are too far gone.
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  • Posted by bassboat 11 years, 11 months ago
    The store owner is getting the short end of the deal, plain and simple. Until we as a people demand that cuts in spending actually occur governments will continue to "Find" (Tax) the money for their pet project or for their voting block of city employees. We need a Ronald Reagan to bring the message.
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    • Posted by strugatsky 11 years, 11 months ago
      Sorry, not a Ronald Reagan - he increased government spending and created a whole bunch of new programs and agencies that we are still (and will be) paying for. He was good for morale, but not for controlling spending.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 11 months ago
        Reagan was the best we could hope for then, and probably better than we can hope for now. I can't see anyone worth getting excited about either. Rand Paul or Ted Cruz would be more than acceptable, but neither one is worth getting all that excited about.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 11 months ago
        The government spending issue with regard to Reagan is a tough one. Yes, he signed off on the budgets, but he never had a conservative House of Representatives. David Stockman and Art Laffer were geniuses to get things as under control as they did.
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        • Posted by strugatsky 11 years, 11 months ago
          Yet he signed the bills. He had a choice, which would have required either commitment or moral strength. He didn't have it. Just like Bush I - "read my lips: no new taxes", just before a huge tax hike. Reagan did wonders for foreign policy, but domestically, he was a RINO. Actually, maybe that's an inappropriate term, since practically every Republican is a RINO. Perhaps that is what the Republican Party actually stands for. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 11 months ago
            I am not going to disagree with you on his signing those bills. All I am going to say is that governing is a lot more difficult than it looks. Even as a president of my university's faculty senate, I have seen situations where I have learned that some battles are more important to win than others. You only have so much of yourself to put into each and every issue. I still think he did the best that he could. Yes, he did compromise more than we would have liked him to do, but the power of a president is (or at least was) limited. Reagan was no RINO. Every other Republican president or vice president in the last 50 years has been a RINO. Reagan's "failures" point to the importance of gaining a governing majority.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 11 months ago
            Exactly how was he to rebuild our military and exercise that wondrous foreign policy if he couldn't fund the military rebuilding, couldn't fund the foreign service, because the communist-controlled Congress shut things down while fighting over the budget? Either way, they would have won.

            And Reagan did the part more important than cutting the budget; he increased revenue by restoring faith in capitalism and America among the American people, and deregulating as much as he could get away with.

            Even Reagan couldn't get away with the dictatorial tactics that Obama does.
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            • Posted by strugatsky 11 years, 11 months ago
              Although I think Reagan was by far the best of what we had in almost a century, let me remind everyone that he is responsible for Resource Conservation Act, Illegal Immigrants Amnesty Act, Jobs Training Act, expanded Social Security and Homeless Assistance Act. Needless to say everyone of those acts came with it's own federal agency, a growing budget in perpetuity, more power to the elite and a corresponding erosion of Constitutional freedoms. Sorry, but those are facts.
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 11 months ago
                Yes, and the Illegal Immigrants Amnesty Act was a deal with the communist controlled Congress to get the border secured. Just because they welched doesn't mean he was in favor of it.

                Don't be sorry about the facts. Let me ask you this...

                How eroded would your Constitutional freedoms have been under Soviet rule?
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                • Posted by strugatsky 11 years, 11 months ago
                  Funny that you've brought up that question... Currently, we are under the Soviet rule; the American Soviet rule, to be precise. But, the dictatorship of the proletariat is still a dictatorship of the proletariat, regardless of the nationality. And of the Constitutional freedoms? What constitution and what freedoms? The ones in the history books that no one reads or in the ones that are being taught currently with the New Constitution and that don't have freedoms? We are a skeleton of our former selves.
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  • Posted by edweaver 11 years, 11 months ago
    I hear the same you. Most people say that the markets should pay their share. These fees are just hidden taxes that are enacted by governmental departments without legislative action. (taxation without representation) Every year I have to pay fees, just because I own a business. I get absolutely nothing for it and I do not believe it does anything for the public either. Just a fee that is all. I hear the same about hotel taxes. Some communities enact it on the premise of making the visitors pay. Then other communities enact it to level the playing field. They keep adding nickle & dime fees but they add up to a hug sum of money that gets spent with little or no oversight. These fees should all go away.
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  • Posted by Notperfect 11 years, 10 months ago
    I support them both. I try to shop at my local establishments when I can, but I also like the Farmers Markets. I also go to the Walmart of my choice to save when I can. That is the freedom all I can hope for. My choice.
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    • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 10 months ago
      Excellent. The interesting point for me is that Farmers Markets are basically a black market set up to avoid paying certain taxes and fees. Funny how many progressives shop there and don't realize this.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago
        That may be the effect, but I don't think that's the primary intent. If it were so, you'd see big companies proliferating. Besides, legally, you are required to report that income (there are many caveats, and I'm no tax lawyer so do your own research). So, technically, there's no tax evasion per se (now, what people ACTUALLY report may be different).
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  • Posted by $ DriveTrain 11 years, 11 months ago
    If "it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg," it's not a problem, no matter how cheesy the unintentionally-comedic paeans to "organic" and other "green" dogma-points that sellers there may promote. And if anyone - no matter who it is - is able to sidestep legally any of the multitude of unjustifiable taxes, regulations and other mandates imposed on us, more power to 'em.
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    • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 11 months ago
      Hi DriveTrain. I have always felt the same. It is hard competing with that. I tread lightly because I don't want them to pay more. I want to pay less.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago
        Correct. Unfortunately, politicians do not know that method of equalization, only the one whereby everyone pays more (so that the politicians can then spend it).
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  • Posted by rbunce 11 years, 11 months ago
    I agree with your sentiments. When interest developed over a Farmers market in our Town I advocated for keeping government out of it, there was nothing stopping from these venders from getting together, selecting a day and time, advertising and showing up to sell. Unfortunately the Town government went the other way, passing ordinances, collecting fees, setting rules, messing the whole thing up and I am sure discouraging many useful vendors so we end up with the professional hucksters selling crap not the guy coming off the farm for a couple hours to sell his products.
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  • Posted by jerryconn 11 years, 11 months ago
    Well I do sell at a Farmer's Market (FM). Fresh from the farm produce. I would like to share a couple of points. Farmer's Markets vary greatly from locality to locality, state to state (interpretation- government intrusion, at all levels). At our FM you must pay a daily stall fee and you must collect and file taxes. You must also have a business license, otherwise you can't "play". As far as accepting EBT (which I have to take to participate in the Farmer's market). It is matched by, you guessed it.... a government grant. And collecting my EBT funds Well I have to wait for the operator of the FM to send me a check couple weeks AFTER the actual transaction.
    I too agree that any government has no business meddling in private transactions of ANY kind. As someone said earlier in the thread. The real fight is with the government/agencies that are "trying to protect us from ourselves". Not merchant against merchant. Free enterprise should be just that.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 11 months ago
    Brick-and-mortar shops have advantages to Farmer's Markets (aka Flea Markets?); they also have disadvantages.

    There's a reason why Wal-mart is such a big retailer while producing pretty much nothing (in the way of products).

    Then again, I've also always been hostile to Habitat for Humanity, for pretty much the same reason..
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 11 months ago
      1) What WM "produces" is convenience and availability. That is a valuable commodity. Most communities prior to WM didn't have the breadth of goods available, and certainly not available in one location.

      2) Why the hostility to HfH? Besides the fact that Carter makes that a cause celeb? Those who take ownership of the home put their own sweat equity into it, and they have an excellent track record of paying off the remaining loan. HfH is one of the best organizations as it is not merely a gift to the receiver.
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