Stone Age discovery could rewrite ancient history

Posted by  $  nickursis 3 years, 3 months ago to History
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Hmmmm... this could fit into Graham Hancocks Fingerprints of the Gods theory about a seperate people who survived a cataclysm about 12 K years ago and taught farming and civilization to the rest of the ravaged world.
SOURCE URL: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/stone-age-farming-population-south-asia-middle-east/


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  • Posted by Herb7734 3 years, 2 months ago
    History's Mysteries.
    In all the years the hominids have been around, entire civilizations could have risen, and fallen, with the oldest no longer leaving hardly a trace. Our civilization is just a few thousand years old and has the capability of total destruction, or, as we now know, total destruction from space. It makes even the most far-out S.F. or fantasy stories a lot more feasible than previously believed.
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    • Posted by wiggys 3 years, 2 months ago
      dark hair, dark eyes probably white skin, sounds like the arabs to me and since they split 50,000 years ago that means the infighting has been going on much longer than history has recorded
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    • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
      Exactly, which is why there should be a lot more open minded efforts to connect all the dots from the past, even if they do not fit the current model.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 3 years, 2 months ago
        After I retired and I started my REAL education, learning about history and quantum physics, my mind opened to concepts I never considered before then. Scientists should be strict about proving theories, but open minded about the attempts to prove new ideas.
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    • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
      Absolutely ! The earth is 4.2 billion years old . The best way to leave a lasting legacy is in stone and to have the stones with incredible astronomy and complex mathematical formulas built in to them makes one curious as to what we haven't learned yet.
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  • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 3 months ago
    Ahhh the onion gets peeled a few layers at a time.
    Thanks for posting Nickursis.
    Gobekli tepe means "navel of the hill " found in Anatolia only 8% excavated since discovered 20 years ago shows an organized civilization 10500bc.
    at least or possibly older as the site is buried.
    Curiously Te-pito-o-te-henua is the original name of Easter Island and it means "navel of the world".
    Cuzco, Peru "the earths navel".Greece temple of Apollo had the omphalos or "navel stone" Egypt has the "navel of kingdom of sokar"
    That is a worldwide ancient connection.
    I guess my point is in the last twenty years we have indisputable evidence that organized intelligent human civilizations are far far older essentially from 4000 bc to 10500 bc that is 6500 years older.
    I find in the article , Burger's statement telling.
    The anthropologist/population geneticist said
    "Important developments in human histories that have been neglected due to researchers long habit of focusing on ancient movements into Europe."

    Really,really, 6500 years of human activity doubling what we don't know and it is neglected. Actually when scientists with credible evidence suggest these older dates they are labeled fringe or quacks only to often be proven correct.
    The connections and evidence mounts for a much more sophisticated intelligent mankind going much farther back in time and yet wiped out leaving massive stone monoliths as proof in plain sight.
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    • Posted by  $  3 years, 3 months ago
      Actually I just finished listening to Fingerprints, and his argument is compelling. I am looking into crustal displacement, as I am having a hard time seeing the surface of the earth move 2000 miles, but that does not mean it cannot happen. Plate tectonics was considered fantasy in the 50's and is now as settled as science gets. What is to say that we do not have enough evidence to support the crustal displacement model? I think there is clear, compelling evidence to show that there was a civilization, and it was very advanced. I am not sure even today anyone would have the imagination to make a geodetic marker that can identify a specific time and date.
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      • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 3 months ago
        Just starting the 5 th chapter. I have read "heavens mirrors" and "magicians of the gods"
        I definitely recommend both.
        The Earth is estimated to be over 4.2 billion years old and has experienced constant change.
        Take humans 50000 years and that is .0000119%
        Of 4.2 billion.
        Admiral Piri Reis's map clearly shows Antarctica ice free and a detailed coast line only verified in the 60 's by the Brits with ice penetrating radar.
        This 16th century map was detailed using ancient maps at the Admirals disposal.
        More evidence will come to light as to explain an ice free Antarctic coastline. Mapped thousands of years before it was "Discovered".
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        • Posted by  $  3 years, 3 months ago
          The Peri Reis map was only one of those he mentioned in Fingerprints.It is amazing how mainstream science will ignore inconvenient data,if it conflicts with the established mantra. Makes one wonder why is that so? A scientist would have a vested interest in dealing with factual data to generate a useful hypothesis to prove. The map alone says that Antarctica must have been ice free at some point, and someone had to have mapped it in detail, yet no one even mentions it.
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          • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 3 months ago
            Forbidden archeology by Michael Cremo has some fascinating historical anomalies and stories of professional losing their careers for announcing discoveries that don't fit the main stream view even when the mainstream view is constantly being adjusted by new finds.
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  • Posted by superfluities 3 years, 2 months ago
    Genius inventors is just a PC way of saying Ancient Aliens!
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    • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
      Indeed, some people get excited when you use the term. I am leaning towards the Graham Hancock term of ancient, technologically advanced civilization, which could encompass several variations from a homegrown, to an outwrld one. With no concrete evidence beyond a boatload of ancient cities and monuments that no one can really give a good explanation for (and there are some who will show how things like that could be done using primitive tools, I just have a hard time imagining people dropping things like food growing to make giant monuments), there is a whole open room for discussion.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 3 years, 2 months ago
    Given the relatively small distances and uncertainty in time frames it appears more likely that the technology spread rather than two separate inventions.
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    • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
      Indeed, Dale, no one seems to want to think that technology can be in many forms, some of which we do not posess or understand today. Obviously, when you look at some of the megalithic sites, something beyond what we know today was used. The Great Pyramid today has blocks in it's base that only 2 cranes in the world today can move. So one has to wonder how they did it.
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  • Posted by  $  3 years, 3 months ago
    Ah, here is a coonection between several sciences. There is a study talking about cloud formation and how it is "caused by greenhouse gases". Yet, as pointed out by the author of Fingerprints of the Gods, there was a wet spell in Egypt for a few thousand years (12-9,000 BC), then a dry spell that killed off a fledgling farming culture, then another wet spell from 7-5000BC, then it went dry from there on out. No greenhouse gases, no man made carbon, unless you count on wood fire smoke, so you can see how this keeps revolving around the same narrow mindset. If changing clouds and ice will accelerate warming (makes sense) then go deploy a large scale barrier in space of thin material to weaken the sunlight enough to offset the heat load, and still allow enough light for plants. Instead of putting all this effort into crying, put it into fixing.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/e...
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    • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 3 months ago
      Robert Schoch Ph.D geology wrote "Forgotten Civilizations" has very convincing evidence of
      "the Sphinx" being 3x older than current aging or dating.
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      • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 3 years, 2 months ago
        Read that book...confirmed what I had read elsewhere...enjoyed the quantum physics ditty toward the end.
        For man to had survived up until the flood and a few after, including the nephilim...they had to have farming capabilities, shelter and boat building.
        I believe there were civilizations prior to the rise of the Human species 200K ago and they were probably the nephilim...they had their way with us too!
        That's also why I postulate that there are random genes that pop up from time to time that has prevented some from become "Conscious beings" Very much like the descriptions of the Annuniki and the Nephilim...probably others as well...One thing to appreciate here...we survived and became Conscious...they did not. Just wish the knowledge of those times and their full unique understanding of the cosmos survived also.
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        • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
          I found this video on YT where a guy is taking a couple different ideas and meshing them into one. If the Pole had moved to where some suggest, in Alaska, the equator shifts and he runs it around and it runs through several of the great prehistory sites, including Nazca. It also matches the southern end of the middle Pyramid, basically going through the middle of the site. It also allows for Graham Hancock's theory of the box of Egypt and allows for some of the northern prehistory sites to line up on lines of longitude. It at least proves that given some out of the box thinking, it may be possible to build a good reason to indeed support the prior civilization theory, as well as explain the whole ice age issue.

          https://youtu.be/DpNI2FtCgtc?list=FL2...
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          • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
            That's the best guess about the Nazca lines I have heard yet.
            The precessional code also plays a significant role in the sites along the proposed ancient equator. 72 is the number of years it takes for the skies to shift 1 degree. Giza is 72 degrees from Angkor Wat it is 54 degrees from pohn pei 108 from Tahiti and 147 from Rapa Nui (Easter Island) as close to 144 as you can get or 216 from Giza . This code 36,54,72 ,108,144,180,216, extends out to 432, 864. Some incredible facts regarding these numbers /moons diameter 2160 miles /Suns diameter 864000 miles/ Earths diameter 7920miles
            Stay with me for this one 365.242 x 360000= 131,487,120 divided by 5280 = 24902 miles or the circumference of the Earth.
            Check it out pi ....3.14159265 x diameter 7920 =
            C.
            That is just a bit of the incredible coincidental numbers on this code.
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            • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
              The use of numbers as communication is what Graham Hancock was all about. The fact specific values we use today are embedded in many sites and things indicates something as passed down through the ages, and someone wanted an unmistakable sign left. Maybe it a test?
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            • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
              No, we aren't "staying with you on this one". You can selectively manipulate numbers to make any "coincidence" you want.
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              • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                Well you tell me that the math is wrong. Prove it .
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                • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                  You can do any arbitrary arithmetic you want to without the "math being wrong". Arbitrary arithmetic has no meaning beyond that.
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                  • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                    I did not do arbitrary math I just stated a fact.
                    I called it an incredible coincedence. What is your point?
                    Let's see an example of your arbitrary math
                    Use 533.771 and show me something of interest.
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                    • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                      You used unrelated measurements and arbitrarily combined them. The arithmetic doesn't prove anything to make them related.
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                      • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                        Distance and time certainly are related as well as 360 degrees is the earths full circumference .
                        I am not trying to prove anything.
                        What don't you like ' that you can't prove your "selected numbers manipulation".
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                        • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                          360 degrees is the angle around the full circumference, not the circumference, which is a distance. Distance and time are two different concepts. Speed is a third concept that relates them as the distance per unit time.

                          You find "coincidences" in numbers and fallaciously conclude causal connections arithmetic. One of the fallacies you promoted is the mythology of the golden mean. It's number mysticism.
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                          • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                            Nit picker. Thanks I thought time and distance were the same , next time I set up an appointment I won't say see you at 3.6 miles.
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                            • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                              Your snide sarcasm evading discussion does not belong here. You are promoting number mysticism.
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                              • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                                Maybe I don't are you the decision maker of my time or this forum ?oh by the way twice you made a claim and I asked you to back up your statement and you choose to not
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                                • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                                  This is a forum for Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason, not promoting mysticism in any form, including your number mysticism. Your posts are incoherent, snide sarcasm, and non-responsive. They have nothing to do with the topic of the thread on a claimed scientific discovery of multiple influences on development of farming in early civilizations.

                                  There is no significance in reality to your claim of "incredible coincident" based on your arithmetic rationalizations, and your posts provide no coherent explanation of what you are talking about. Selected numerical coincidences do not represent causality and your strings of numbers are not an explanation of anything. No further "backing up" is required. If you want to say something it is up to you to coherently state it, and without your personal insults.

                                  The "golden mean" as an intrinsic characteristic is myth. Your statement that "1.618034 or phi and the decimal .618034 are also ratios that are represented in our bodies" is nonsense. Numbers are abstractions for measurement, not metaphysical features in our bodies. The "golden mean" in particular is an irrational number with open-ended decimal places that do not end. Neither that abstraction of infinity nor the numerical abstraction of your six-place decimal approximation are "represented in our bodies".
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                                  • nickursis replied 3 years, 2 months ago
            • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 3 years, 2 months ago
              Not to mention the "golden Mean": 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21...This is how everything is constructed, how everything grows...follow this pattern and your "golden" laughing.
              I use this to demonstrate what happens when History is confounded. If we're taught we came from say, 4, we would be at 7 and moving toward 11...we'd be way off the beaten track...This is what progressives have tried to do.

              Here is another one for you guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HldO_...
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              • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                1.618034 or phi and the decimal .618034 are also ratios that are represented in our bodies.
                That ratio of sizes are very pleasing to our eyes .
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                • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 3 years, 2 months ago
                  Yes...and there are those not of masonry that call that mysticism.
                  Laughing...but I have noticed in the past few years that the auto industry, especially in the east, do not use that ratio...to put it nicely...
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                • Posted by lrshultis 3 years, 2 months ago
                  The golden ratio or mean is 1.618034... which is the limit of the ratios of successive terms of the Fibonacci sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,... the ratios being alternatingly smaller and larger than the golden ratio.
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                  • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                    It's also a certain geometric ratio that is an irrational number. A lot has been written about the mathematical properties. The problem isn't the mathematics, it's the mystical attribution of physical significance, often espoused as esthetics and its history which is plain false mythology.
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                  • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                    Thank you, I knew I had heard that, but I am not too familiar with the Fibonacci sequence other than from the movie they were used in...
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                    • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                      The Fibonacci sequence is just a sequence of integers in which each term is the sum of the previous two, with the provision that it starts with 0,1. So 0+1 =1 1+1=2 1+2=3 etc. to get 0,1,1,2,3,5,... It was first described around 1220 by Leonardo of Pisa (who was known as Fibonacci) in connection with a problem involving counting rabbits resulting from a pair of rabbits breeding a new pair.

                      There are endless such sequences in mathematics and there is nothing mysterious about them.
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                • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                  The 'golden mean' mythology is number mysticism. No 6 place decimal, let alone the irrational number, is "represented" in our bodies or anywhere else.
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                  • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                    Mysticism is often science we do not understand rendered down to something excusable. Look at the Hammurabi, it talks of weapons used that were great fire from the sky: atomic?
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                    • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                      Mysticism is not any kind of science.
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                      • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                        I did not say that, I said it is often science that is not understandable in the current framework. I would say that acupuncture is such an item, it was never covered by any health plans and is now a prescribe-able treatment. Many considered it mysticism just 20 years ago.
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                        • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                          You wrote "Mysticism is often science we do not understand rendered down to something excusable." Observed procedures that seem to work even though no one understands why are not mysticism.

                          When a procedure isn't understood even though there are rational reasons for thinking there is something to it, there are typically also quacks involved, which gives it a bad reputation and muddies the waters for just what it is that actually seems to work.

                          Acupuncture is an example, and still has its quacks along with the lack of understanding. It seems that covering it with insurance became politically mandated. My own experience through someone close was that it didn't work, and the practitioner, who was paid by insurance and working in a reputable professional community, didn't know what she was doing, and in addition gave "explanations" in terms of what she claimed was electromagnetic theories of physics which were absolute gibberish. It was laughable and no better than a fortune teller. Whatever anyone in that field thinks works even without theoretical explanation, the insurance companies are being bilked in a hoax.
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                          • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                            I won't argue that point, I am inexperienced in acupuncture, and I also have heard of folks who did not respond. Maybe it is all something like a placebo effect. But is a good example of what may be mysticism to one, is science to another, because it has observable facts, cause and effect and predictable results. Again though, it is cloudy because it not consistent. Maybe the quacks skew the results? I mean, you can melt down a reactor even when you think you know how it works...
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                            • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                              Some reasonable people seem to think that at least in some circumstances there is a causal connection, while recognizing that no one understands why and that there is much more to investigate. And there are always those who mix some reasonable thinking with nonsense.

                              But science is rational, systematic investigation and conceptual explanation. It is the opposite of mysticism, with or without the mystics trying to rationalize their beliefs by appealing to selected observation of the unexplained or imagined.

                              Whatever some mystic thinks about anything he is cognitively irrelevant. It is not "science to one and mysticism to another", only phenomena not yet properly conceptualized or explained, with rational people trying to understand and mystics off on the side spewing nonsense. The facts in reality, whether or not all causally related, are simply facts "waiting" to be understood. It is no more "science to some and mysticism to others" than any already scientifically explained phenomenon, such as radio transmission, with mystics jabbering about it.
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                              • -1
                                Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                                I think the issue here is defining what constitutes "rational, systemic investigation and conceptual explanation". I listened the Graham Hancoks book "Fingerprints of the Gods" and he presents a persuasive case for the relationships between the measurements of the Pyramid, celestial precession, and specific dates that align with specific physical items (such as the Sphinx, the various tunnels in the Pyramid, and the relations between various measurements. I find it interesting, and plausible. I posted a video where a guy took some of the data available suggesting the poles have shifted over time, and tha, given such changes, could align along a series of ancient monuments. I did not see anyone trying to persuade that it is fact, but that the various facts that are available, could certainly support a possible ancient, advanced civilization was around 12-15 thousand years ago. To me, mysticism is still saying that the Spinx was built by Khufu in the 25th century BC, when there is scientific evidence to date it to the 12,000 BC mark.
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                    • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                      Some examples of Myths or so called mystical beliefs rediscovered and proven by science.
                      Rogue waves---oceanography
                      City of Troy---archeology
                      Chronomedicine-- biology
                      Moon phases and its effects on humans
                      The great flood 12500 years ago
                      Civilized man cultivating and cooperating thought to go back to
                      6000 years ago now doubled to over 12000.
                      Antarctica rediscovered.
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                      • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                        Science does not prove mysticism. It explains observable phenomena.

                        Sometimes historical events in ancient legends that are a mixture of primitive history and myth can be discovered by science, which separates the fact from the myth. A confirmation of an historical event to some minimal degree of detail does not prove the associated mythology or give it or it's method any credibility.
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                        • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                          "Observable phenomena"
                          Like a black hole or dark matter.
                          If you would please, In my comment I never said
                          Science proves mysticism.
                          Please read more carefully.
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                      • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                        Rogue waves is particularly interesting, in that many maritime disasters never had a good explanation, and reports of them were often discounted. Yet sattelite mapping now reports they are not only regular, but can be found in most oceans and certain routes around Africa and South America have been changed to specifically avoid the areas most prone to them.
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                        • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                          And they have nothing to do with his claimed mysticism proved by science. They are a natural, statistical, observed phenomenon, difficult to predict with precision because of the complexity and instabilities of large ocean systems and their interaction with weather. An interesting discussion and description of rogue waves is in the classic Waves and Beaches, 2nd ed 1980 by Willard Bascom.
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                        • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
                          I've seen a show that was devoted to
                          Rogue waves and the devastating effects on
                          Huge ships and oil platforms.
                          They are fairly frequent around the
                          Cape Horn due to currents and winds.
                          They also can come right out of the blue
                          Caused by a type of build up of smaller waves.
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      • Posted by  $  3 years, 3 months ago
        That was also in Fingerprints, with a different guy, who dated it to 10-12K BC based on the weathering and scallops, and that also was evidence for the wet theory of the the time period. Evidently the rate of wear can aid in the dating.Yet I watched a show on deconstructing the Pyramid on Discovery (and it was 2016 copyrighted) and they made no mention of the odd fact there is no decorations at all inside any of the three pyramids, not the fact the Sphinx is clearly a marker that points to the vernal equinox rising of the sun. The fact it is a lion is one of the facts being used to show it was put there in 12K BC, as the sun then rose in Leo. I also understood he was saying the constellations are also a hand me down from that time or earlier, and were not defined by either the Greeks or the Romans, as is commonly put out.
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        • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 3 months ago
          The Egyptians decorated their burial chambers and no markings or stories in the great pyramids yet they insist on calling them tombs for the pharaoh's.
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          • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
            That was what I found so weird in the Discovery show, they had and "expert" propounding on it being a tomb, and he is standing in an empty blank chamber. What, was there bad government back then and they ran out of money to pay the painters?
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            • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
              LoL......The most amazing structure ever assembled in ancient times and no one even took credit unlike all tombs found. Just an example of long held beliefs purported as facts even when evidence suggests otherwise.
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  • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    ewv, please do not get so excited. While you may not subscribe to the idea being expressed here, that does not mean they are invalid. I listened to Graham Hancock's book and he makes a persuasive case for some kind of relational effect for the use of the numbers Pi and Phi. They do exist as a relational number item that is found to be a standard in calculations of circles, diameters, radiaii. There are some relations he espouses about the Pyramid, it's measurements, the angles of the channels in the Pyramid. You can call it mysticism, but the relations to the various items, and precession, seem valid. There may be other explanations and truths, but it does seem there are a lot of coincidences here, especially for number relationships that work for something that was "discovered" 2500 years after they were supposedly built. It seems obvious you and Dobrien are on opposite sides of the point, so lets leave it at that, please. Thank you.
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    • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
      The mathematics of the 'golden mean' and related principles is abstract mathematical science. The attribution of any other significance is number mysticism, which has a long history of mythology breathlessly repeated over and over and has been thoroughly debunked. Rejecting it is not "getting excited". The "opposite sides" are reason versus mysticism. The latter does not belong here. It is not an equally valid alternative.
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    • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
      Nickursis, Thanks for the link as it is a discovery that builds the case for a lost ancient civilization that was likely connected before a cataclysmic event wiped them out. BTW sorry for the sarcastic
      and trite rant with ewv. I was not trying to persuade you to believe in mysticism. If that's how it came across I apologize.
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      • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
        I never thought you were, you were making an impassioned statement of what you see as facts that coincide, he is making an impassioned statement that he sees it as mysticism. They are not compatible, but I think a true Objectivist trait is the ability to listen to all sides, and acquire data that we each have to formulate into our own truths. I appreciate feisty debate, sometimes it just gets a bit too feisty. If we cannot have true discussion with all points of view, we risk becoming like those that we do not agree with, and will seek to manipulate the discussion to our own point of view. I did find the video the guy put together as pretty interesting, if you can tie it to some substantial evidence of the pole shift. I have not found detailed facts for that yet, but there are a lot of "ancient cores suggest". I am sure there is more out there, and a lot of it is putting together a bunch of unrelated facts.
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        • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
          We don't make our "own truths". Truth is correspondence with the facts. "True Objectivism" does not endlessly "listen" to Rationalistic cartoons and mysticism seeking to "formulate its own truth".
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          • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
            Ok, so you are drawing a line at the difference between A=A and If A=C, and C=B then A must = B? That is what I mean about making our own truths. No archeologist will tell you they can dig up some fossils and just pontificate what it means, they take bits and pieces, and add to previous knowledge to sometimes find a whole new truth. That can be supported by factual evidence. Therein is the difference.
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            • Posted by conscious1978 3 years, 2 months ago
              Trite rant:
              Archeologists typically don't "dig up some fossils"...that's what paleontologists do. Interpretation of artifacts found by archeologists should be based on the evidence available. Rational speculation based on that evidence is a far cry from the fiction of 'science fantasy'. Understanding the difference between those two ideas is an objective perspective.
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              • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                Excuse me, you are correct. The meaning was that various unconnected "Facts" can be assembled into a working hypothesis. The use of mathematics MAY have been intentionally built into the Pyramid as well as other structures. That is not something that can be proved or disproved at this point, but can be hypothesized. It is a valid as any other hypothesis made on various facts that can be correlated to a specific model. The argument is that the numerology being stated here is "mysticism". The argument being debated is that use of numeric relationships that are not disputable, may indicate that an advanced civilization tried to pass down both knowledge and evidence of it's existence through the use of certain constant values in buildings and layouts of building. May be a whole lot of hogwash, but seems as valid as any other hypothesis.
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                • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                  There is no evidence at all for such speculations. It is not as valid as any other hypothesis. A good deal of very interesting history of their mathematical development and how it was used is well known. Numerology is mysticism, it is not mathematics.
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            • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
              No. It's not about "drawing lines" between whatever it is you are trying to convey with floating symbols. Factual evidence and objective, conceptual understanding are not "formulating our own truth". Truth is correspondence of statements and abstract principles with the facts of reality, not subjective manipulation.

              Science does not subjectively "pontificate"; mystics and Rationalists do. Archeologists and astronomers are objective and very careful in their conclusions. Mystics subjectively string together numbers in awe claiming great significance, and pronounce abstract unending decimals like the 'golden mean' to be intrinsically "represented in our bodies".
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              • Posted by  $  3 years, 2 months ago
                I will not argue the "Golden mean in human bodies" although I have heard mention of it. I do not consider it as something completely verifiable, because that would mean that someone had to measure every body living and dead to establish it as a constant verifiable fact. However, the measurements of the Pyramid, the angles of the ducts, the alignments of the structures, can be interpreted as indicating specific intent. They also can be interpreted as some dudes really cool idea of "style". Until some concrete evidence is found to connect them, it will remain a hypothesis. In fact, I just saw an article stating a papyrus was put on display showing the logs of the construction of the Great Pyramid. That does not conflict with the theory, in that they have already dated the face stones to that period. There are so many individual items that can be put into the puzzle, it can be viewed any one of a dozen ways.
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                • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                  There has been a lot of "mention" of the mythology of the 'golden mean'. The gullible and the irrational continue to repeat it, misleading those who don't know better, even though it has been thoroughly debunked,which did not "require measuring every living body living and dead". The mystical worst elements make no sense at all and have no cognitive content. They are not unknown puzzles of history, they are a subsequent mentality of mysticism subjectively grafted onto the history and false history along with illicit demands to take it seriously as legitimate hypotheses or worse.

                  The pyramids and Greek architecture of course had some "specific intent" in the design. So what? It doesn't support the mysticism. The history of ancient civilizations and the rudimentary development of their thought, including their early mathematics and its use in surveying and building, is very interesting and has been documented by scholars. But the actual ancient knowledge successfully developed is distinct from their primitive mysticism and religions, and no modern mysticism is worth anything in explaining any of it.
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        • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
          I concur, the open discussion with differing view points can be an enlightening experience. If the reference to number manipulation is easy to do I would like to learn more. I am glad to hear you enjoyed Hancocks book. I find the ancient's abilities and knowledge astounding. I look forward to future discussion with you on this topic.
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          • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
            Your snide personal sniping, self-acknowledged "trite rants", and pronouncements of number mysticism are not "open discussion" with a mere "different view point". They are obnoxious diversions and don't belong here.
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            • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 2 months ago
              You are obnoxious
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              • Posted by ewv 3 years, 2 months ago
                Your repeated off-topic posts are filled with snide personal attacks in obvious violation of the guidelines. You admitted that you engage in "trite rants". You promote mysticism and do not respond to substantive comments. Rejecting your juvenile anti-intellectualism is not obnoxious. You are. It does not belong here. This is supposed to be a serious Ayn Rand forum, not a typical internet repository for juvenile behavior personally sniping at people. There are many other places you can go for that.
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  • Posted by jtrikakis 3 years, 2 months ago
    It is written that man once lived in caves. If it true, how come so few caves exist that have remains of humans living in them. Hum, no cave tracks either.
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